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Mexico2170 Posts
First of all, i didn't expect diamond himself to watch my replay, but I want to thank you for taking the time to actually watch it, and thanks for the feedback, which couldn't come from a better source.
you took SOOOO much dmg for free and no reason.
You're completely right, i'll try to improve on that.
I'm 4 mins in and you are lecturing your team they need to listen to you even though some of your knowledge is blatantly incorrect. For example your "skulls > kills" kills often worth more than skulls as it opens up the mines to free clear. It's the team that loses the lvl 4 that needs to split, and your teams Lvl 4 is WAYYYYY better. You should be looking to fight in that case.
But i kind of have to dissagree here...the thing is, and the reason i say "skulls>kills" is that i've havent had one, but dozen of games, where team mates chase enemies all around the mines, sometimes even OUT of the mines, ignoring skulls because (i think) they are used to kills being super important in other games, but since the the respawn timers are pretty fast on the first mines, this just simply makes so whoever they kill, is back pretty fast, full health, and full mana, while they are not, being easily killed and not getting skulls, and then the enemy takes it. it also has happened to me that some of my team mates get so focused on killing certain hero, that the enemy just baits them while the rest gather skulls. So, while i don't doubt that maybe in your pro-level matches skulls, even in the first mines, aren't neccesary better than kills, I still think that, in my level of play, it is important to try to get the team mates to understand that ultimately, skulls is what you want, you can get them more easily if the enemy is dead, sure, but getting out of your way to kill an oponent sacrificing skulls isn't always worth it, specially early in the game., and it is easy for "new" people, to forget that.
Of course, maybe i don't express it in the correct way, one thing is saying it calmly, with all the time in the world like im doing right now, and another completely different is getting the message across while you are playing. Also, you are right that i shouldn't "AFK" to write things, but it is hard to communicate writing.
I would love to hear however, what you think about the rest of the replay. As i said, i'm not a great player, and i myself saw lots of things that i could improve, but it is unndeniable that specially zagara and sonya weren't, you know, specially helpful. Using maw on the golem for example? Being toxic at the other team mates (while i jus tryied to help, even if it wasn't the best way). And ultimately, i think that was what ended up losing us the game, not working togheter, because i'm sure the other team skill wasn't great either, but they made the right choses most of the time.
Recently, i've tried to shift my focus on improving myself, because i noticed what you mention is true. Yesterday for example, i played with some friend that i used to play at the start of the beta, and while before we were more or less from the same skill, i have either got worse, or they got so much better (probably a combination of both things), so i'll definitely should focus on improving, but when you get toxic team mates every match, and you are very competitive, it's hard to stay focused on improving, but i'll try to do it.
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On February 24 2015 10:20 NonY wrote:
Well I was just recently frustrated with bad teammates and poor matchmaking etc, but my experience playing high mmr hero league has been pretty good so far. I mean more often than not, you get players who understand the basics of strategy and decision-making, like skipping objectives when necessary. It's definitely an improvement over typical quick match games (for which I also had a high mmr, always hitting the 6 minute queues). Anyone who is really suffering through shitty teams and isn't already high mmr hero league should probably try to work on it.
It is possible to carry in this game despite a lot of testimony to the contrary. I'm 34-15 so far, and actually 24-6 in my last 30 games, all solo queue, a lot of which I've been matching with rank 1's. I'm sure most rank 1's could do the same or better if they started over. After I played through the absolute newbs that come with a fresh MMR, I got cocky and then went on tilt about bad teammates and went on a sick losing streak. After that, I figured out my recipe: I hardly ever tell my teammates what to do, I just ping or talk to let them know what I'm doing, and anytime I'm not in a fight I'm looking at the minimap more than my hero. I try to pick heroes that do a lot of damage and I kill people. And I don't expose myself to danger much. ezpz recipe for winning. Falstad 15-6 Jaina 14-4
So yeah, just focus on fixing your own shit whenever teammates' incompetence gets to be too much.
This was more or less my experience climbing hero league. I won at a very high clip going up the the ladder, and I'm pretty sure it was because I was on average far better than the lower ranked players on the other team. Once I got to around rank 4, suddenly I was often the highest ranked player in a given game and saddled with lower ranked players who truly did not know what they are doing. This is where I started having trouble. Hell, just today, I played two games in a row where my team had no tank because the last players picking refused to pick heroes that rounded out the team. This is the kind of crap that can't be controlled for when solo-queuing, which I'd like to think that I've earned a reprieve from (but apparently not).
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On February 24 2015 10:48 [Phantom] wrote:+ Show Spoiler +First of all, i didn't expect diamond himself to watch my replay, but I want to thank you for taking the time to actually watch it, and thanks for the feedback, which couldn't come from a better source. you took SOOOO much dmg for free and no reason. You're completely right, i'll try to improve on that. I'm 4 mins in and you are lecturing your team they need to listen to you even though some of your knowledge is blatantly incorrect. For example your "skulls > kills" kills often worth more than skulls as it opens up the mines to free clear. It's the team that loses the lvl 4 that needs to split, and your teams Lvl 4 is WAYYYYY better. You should be looking to fight in that case. But i kind of have to dissagree here...the thing is, and the reason i say "skulls>kills" is that i've havent had one, but dozen of games, where team mates chase enemies all around the mines, sometimes even OUT of the mines, ignoring skulls because (i think) they are used to kills being super important in other games, but since the the respawn timers are pretty fast on the first mines, this just simply makes so whoever they kill, is back pretty fast, full health, and full mana, while they are not, being easily killed and not getting skulls, and then the enemy takes it. it also has happened to me that some of my team mates get so focused on killing certain hero, that the enemy just baits them while the rest gather skulls. So, while i don't doubt that maybe in your pro-level matches skulls, even in the first mines, aren't neccesary better than kills, I still think that, in my level of play, it is important to try to get the team mates to understand that ultimately, skulls is what you want, you can get them more easily if the enemy is dead, sure, but getting out of your way to kill an oponent sacrificing skulls isn't always worth it, specially early in the game., and it is easy for "new" people, to forget that. Of course, maybe i don't express it in the correct way, one thing is saying it calmly, with all the time in the world like im doing right now, and another completely different is getting the message across while you are playing. Also, you are right that i shouldn't "AFK" to write things, but it is hard to communicate writing. I would love to hear however, what you think about the rest of the replay. As i said, i'm not a great player, and i myself saw lots of things that i could improve, but it is unndeniable that specially zagara and sonya weren't, you know, specially helpful. Using maw on the golem for example? Being toxic at the other team mates (while i jus tryied to help, even if it wasn't the best way). And ultimately, i think that was what ended up losing us the game, not working togheter, because i'm sure the other team skill wasn't great either, but they made the right choses most of the time. Recently, i've tried to shift my focus on improving myself, because i noticed what you mention is true. Yesterday for example, i played with some friend that i used to play at the start of the beta, and while before we were more or less from the same skill, i have either got worse, or they got so much better (probably a combination of both things), so i'll definitely should focus on improving, but when you get toxic team mates every match, and you are very competitive, it's hard to stay focused on improving, but i'll try to do it.
Remind me in a day or so, watching both Wildfire and Tempest scrim atm. Will check whole thing.
VERY quick thing about "Skulls > Kills". It's all about the lvl 4 fight. If you have a good lvl 4 you should look for the fight. Skulls are the map objective, but often times a fight can lead to getting a 80 skull or getting 45 (random example). Just don't be patronizing to random teammates, they often will start doing the opposite of what you ask to spite you. It's fine to remind people once, but multiple times is unnecessary.
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The best way to communicate is to simply state YOUR intentions, not direct others. If you're wanting to get skulls, just say "grabbing skulls" + 1 ping. For me, I always communicate "leaving lane entering through top/bot" to get people to enter together on the winning lane, and it works most of the time (or maybe the people i play with just know it as well!). I have to agree with Diamond on teamfighting vs skulls, even in the first mines getting a few kills will the rest of mines easy to grab. Most of my games ends up with a team fight anyways at the middle camps while going for the 40-45 skulls, and it's really hard to coordinate the team to stay relatively close together. Staying with the team is much safer than going for a camp by yourself. If you win a teamfight and can secure the boss gives 30 skulls, so missing out on a few camps here could be worth it.
With all this said, there's really 2 issues here and are sorta tied together. For any strat/plan to work the team needs to be on the page, so you just gotta take the lead by stating your intentions or concerns ("careful they're looking to teamfight"/"grabbing skulls"/"stick together") rather than absolutes like skulls > kills and it might help teammates coordinate. If you see 2-3 teammates going somewhere, just follow them. For example, I get sad when my teammates beeline for the non-middle camps, but I know if i go solo to them I'll just die, not get any skulls, and now mines is 4v5. If they all decide to solo camps on both top/bot, then just hope for the 50/50 or at best 60/40, probably lose a few heroes, and respawn and take camps, UNLESS you killed a few heroes before mines opened. In that case I would say "spread out and get skulls".
I can finally play heroes league safely, finally fixed the weird network spike that made me stop playing except for coop/practice/QM for the dailies.....
Hit me up if you wanna party up!
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The best way to communicate is to simply state YOUR intentions, not direct others.
I think communication shouldn't be about telling other people what to do, but finding a way to give them advice without sounding like a dictator. For instance, information such as "Nova going top, be careful" is quite valuable to your top laner, and he is likely to appreciate it.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
constructive communication is generally in the form of requests, and not orders. also when someone fucks up, don't do the rhetorical "why would you do that??" but instead "please do x next time"
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On February 24 2015 18:45 ahswtini wrote:
constructive communication is generally in the form of requests, and not orders. also when someone fucks up, don't do the rhetorical "why would you do that??" but instead "please do x next time"
Mostly people don't understand any kind of requests, orders works more efficiently on my exp. Am always trying to build the proper lane composition and mostly it works fine. But sometimes ye, u can hear some words like "Don't tell me what to do".
"please do x next time" works only when a person is able to listen and understand
Yesterday played with a guy that was drunk, he told it in the beggining and besicly he threw the game doing extrodinary things with stiches. And neither request nor orders both worked, u just could do nothing but to suffer a loss :D
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There really isn't a way to give anyone constructive criticism without a risk to hurting their pride, no matter how nicely you say it. However, people are generally happy about self-identifying their mistakes. So what I usually do to point out someone's fuckup is by getting them to reach the conclusion themselves. For example if two guys decided to engage a 2v4 and get blown up, I would say something like "Dang, almost had raynor there. They have so much stuns it's OP -_-".
The biggest problem is when your teammates start fighting with each other. I haven't really found a good way to get them back on track yet. Sometimes I would say like "I bet their team is flaming each other too right now lol, look at how bad their lili is doing". It makes arguing seem meaningless, and shifts the focus back to the opponent. Doesn't work all the time though.
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On February 24 2015 19:31 Chairman Ray wrote:
There really isn't a way to give anyone constructive criticism without a risk to hurting their pride, no matter how nicely you say it. However, people are generally happy about self-identifying their mistakes. So what I usually do to point out someone's fuckup is by getting them to reach the conclusion themselves. For example if two guys decided to engage a 2v4 and get blown up, I would say something like "Dang, almost had raynor there. They have so much stuns it's OP -_-".
The biggest problem is when your teammates start fighting with each other. I haven't really found a good way to get them back on track yet. Sometimes I would say like "I bet their team is flaming each other too right now lol, look at how bad their lili is doing". It makes arguing seem meaningless, and shifts the focus back to the opponent. Doesn't work all the time though.
It feels like u wanna veil the real problems and issues in your team and yourself, and it feels like u are afraid to hurt anyone's personality, to be a nice guy doesn't mean to be a liar... :D I mean, come on, u are in the internet :D
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I think its not about being a nice guy, but about winning and some people just can convinced by saying silly things. Keeping up the moral is important ! I don't understand why, maybe I am an undead without a moral modifier. But I always see how people play so much better if they are feeling good.
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Pretty much if I'm doing something I don't expect my team to read my mind. I ping almost everything I'm planning on doing. Going to take Bruisers on our side? Thats a ping. If I get ganked at least I told my team my intentions and no one said "Don't do that." It is the person that doesn't ping their intention and gets caught out then blames the entire team for not having the clairvoyance on their decisions that really, really frustrates me.
Sometimes I get lazy in games and don't ping as much as I should with my "Tenks is on the way!" or generic alt pings or retreats and I seem to have a much worse win-loss record when I do that
Also anytime I take offensive camps (their mercs -- not sure the generic word for it) I always type it out as a form of a question. Like "Their boss?" Though I usually only do that if we won a 5v5 killing like 2-3 of their people and not losing anyone on their side of the map. It is pretty easy to throw by going for offensive mercs.
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On February 24 2015 19:31 Chairman Ray wrote:
There really isn't a way to give anyone constructive criticism without a risk to hurting their pride, no matter how nicely you say it. However, people are generally happy about self-identifying their mistakes. So what I usually do to point out someone's fuckup is by getting them to reach the conclusion themselves. For example if two guys decided to engage a 2v4 and get blown up, I would say something like "Dang, almost had raynor there. They have so much stuns it's OP -_-".
The biggest problem is when your teammates start fighting with each other. I haven't really found a good way to get them back on track yet. Sometimes I would say like "I bet their team is flaming each other too right now lol, look at how bad their lili is doing". It makes arguing seem meaningless, and shifts the focus back to the opponent. Doesn't work all the time though.
This is good advice, especially the first paragraph. I'm gonna have to try that.
I had a game yesterday where teammates started fighting each other and I said something to the effect of "Man, do you guys ever notice that when you win games, it's with people who are friendly and work together and help each other and don't treat each other like shit?" Not sure it would work all the time, but my hope would be that it gets everyone to focus on their past memories of when things were just working and flowing and they could shrug things off more easily.
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On February 24 2015 19:31 Chairman Ray wrote:The biggest problem is when your teammates start fighting with each other. I haven't really found a good way to get them back on track yet. Sometimes I would say like "I bet their team is flaming each other too right now lol, look at how bad their lili is doing". It makes arguing seem meaningless, and shifts the focus back to the opponent. Doesn't work all the time though.
Generally there is always the flamer and the flamee in these situations. I start by just saying "[Flamer] please stop." That usually will shut them up fairly quickly. It also helps if you're probably the best player on the team since they can't just say "lolol ur 4-5 stfu noob" and go back to flaming. If it continues to happen I request the Flamer/Flamee ignore one another and give brief instruction on how to ignore in-game. If it continues then all is lost and I just reside my fate.
-edit-
This is basically me trying to calm a fight down
http://i.imgur.com/LeWda9t.gif
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8748 Posts
One thing I don't understand about Haunted Mines strategy is always starting the game by sending 4 players to the lane where your golem spawns. Isn't that, in some cases, clearly going to favor one team more than the other? I mean if you went against this setup and you purposely set it up to be 4v4 and 1v1 instead of 4v1 and 1v4, and you have a team comp that's going to win both lanes, or for whatever reason you figure you have a team comp that'll benefit more from all the towers being alive (yours and your enemies) for first golem instead of all towers being dead, then shouldn't you do that? Or maybe your team doesn't have particularly good talents at lvl 4 for teamfighting, so by preventing any towers from dying, you're making the fight over the skulls lvl 3 vs lvl 3.
Even if you can't figure any of that shit out for sure isn't it just kind of a coin flip? I mean assuming that, for all you know, each team is going to do equal damage to each other either way, it's just a different amount and kind of damage that you're doing to each other whether you 4v4/1v1 or 1v4/4v1, and you can't figure out which one is better for which team, then why always choose the same one? Maybe it's just a quirk of the way players play at the MMR I'm at but I'd like to see people put actual thought into it and try to make an intelligent decision and get some experience seeing how the games play out either way.
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United States22154 Posts
On February 25 2015 00:16 Garsecg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2015 19:31 Chairman Ray wrote:
There really isn't a way to give anyone constructive criticism without a risk to hurting their pride, no matter how nicely you say it. However, people are generally happy about self-identifying their mistakes. So what I usually do to point out someone's fuckup is by getting them to reach the conclusion themselves. For example if two guys decided to engage a 2v4 and get blown up, I would say something like "Dang, almost had raynor there. They have so much stuns it's OP -_-".
The biggest problem is when your teammates start fighting with each other. I haven't really found a good way to get them back on track yet. Sometimes I would say like "I bet their team is flaming each other too right now lol, look at how bad their lili is doing". It makes arguing seem meaningless, and shifts the focus back to the opponent. Doesn't work all the time though. This is good advice, especially the first paragraph. I'm gonna have to try that. I had a game yesterday where teammates started fighting each other and I said something to the effect of "Man, do you guys ever notice that when you win games, it's with people who are friendly and work together and help each other and don't treat each other like shit?" Not sure it would work all the time, but my hope would be that it gets everyone to focus on their past memories of when things were just working and flowing and they could shrug things off more easily.
I've found, cheesy at this sounds, that going full power of friendship sometimes works. "Look, we're losing its ok, just game, rally win, much friends, yes yes?" works sometimes. In general I find trying to remind people that the goal is not to flame but to kick the enemy teams ass works. Like "less typing, more killing, then win win win!".
If people decide not to listen, there isn't much you're going to be able to do, if after one or two rallying messages you aren't getting through, focus on getting your team a small win (a pick off, an objective) and then try again. Communication is hard, basically.
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Not sure if this is the according place for it, but is there a decent Nova build that? I'm really into that lady.
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On February 25 2015 00:32 NonY wrote:
One thing I don't understand about Haunted Mines strategy is always starting the game by sending 4 players to the lane where your golem spawns. Isn't that, in some cases, clearly going to favor one team more than the other? I mean if you went against this setup and you purposely set it up to be 4v4 and 1v1 instead of 4v1 and 1v4, and you have a team comp that's going to win both lanes, or for whatever reason you figure you have a team comp that'll benefit more from all the towers being alive (yours and your enemies) for first golem instead of all towers being dead, then shouldn't you do that? Or maybe your team doesn't have particularly good talents at lvl 4 for teamfighting, so by preventing any towers from dying, you're making the fight over the skulls lvl 3 vs lvl 3.
Even if you can't figure any of that shit out for sure isn't it just kind of a coin flip? I mean assuming that, for all you know, each team is going to do equal damage to each other either way, it's just a different amount and kind of damage that you're doing to each other whether you 4v4/1v1 or 1v4/4v1, and you can't figure out which one is better for which team, then why always choose the same one? Maybe it's just a quirk of the way players play at the MMR I'm at but I'd like to see people put actual thought into it and try to make an intelligent decision and get some experience seeing how the games play out either way.
Even if you can figure it out it is still a coinflip though. It is so easy to screw up positioning in a 4v4 situation that you could end up losing it even if you're far ahead in theory. Mines is the map where comebacks are practically impossible so getting behind early on is going to lose you the game. If you make the assumption that you're better than the opponents then doing the safe traditional 4-1 split and outplaying them when mines comes makes more sense.
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Germany25657 Posts
This is what I am doing, it is working pretty well eventhough Nova is probably one of the weaker heroes right now.
1) Ambush Snipe
4) Gathering Power
7)Anti-Armor Shells
10)Precision Strike
13)Advamced Cloaking
16)Crippling Shot
20)Either rewind or blink, depending on how the game is going. If you think you can afford rewind take it, but don't be afraid to be more defensive and take blink
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last few pages are quality stuff, keep it up guys ^_^
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On February 25 2015 00:54 KadaverBB wrote:
This is what I am doing, it is working pretty well eventhough Nova is probably one of the weaker heroes right now.
1) Ambush Snipe
4) Gathering Power
7)Anti-Armor Shells
10)Precision Strike
13)Advamced Cloaking
16)Crippling Shot
20)Either rewind or blink, depending on how the game is going. If you think you can afford rewind take it, but don't be afraid to be more defensive and take blink
That is interesting, I normally go with that triple shot thing and choose that instead of rewind/blink.
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EPT
