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On February 10 2015 04:26 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2015 04:15 Wuster wrote:On February 10 2015 03:45 Sponkz wrote:On February 10 2015 03:25 Hryul wrote:On February 10 2015 03:10 Sponkz wrote:
You can easily take Emerald Wind and out-perform Malfurion and Lili healing-wise, what are you talking about?
as others have pointed out: the raw numbers from the healing tab don't mean anything. the healing that matters is the one from team fight and especially that on the focused target. BW doesn't shine there with her passive, but gives a bit relieve with the shield. the numbers of her healing are inflated because she heals all the time. She definitely shines with her passive, how can you say she doesn´t? After level 7, you either get the gust of healing or regenerative mist, which makes your passive go from semi-decent to nearly OP. Although i can semi-agree that the stats-tab is kinda useless in real games (aka competent 5v5 no MMR-flux or anything), but one thing is that Soothing Mist is AoE, more-so that you play Brightwing for positioning meaning that you wanna pile up (or be the one who makes it looks like you're piled up). This is also why someone mentioned earlier that hard-engage outright destroys her, because it's so easy to get off a nasty AoE wombo-combo on a Brightwing, since her healing slowly catches up over time. I personally cannot decide if blink heal is worth it or not, i guess we will see when they gut her passive to the ground. I don't think working on her other abilities' scaling would help, maybe nerfing Critterize and Gust of Healing would be a great start. On February 10 2015 03:28 KawaiiRice wrote:On February 10 2015 03:10 Sponkz wrote:On February 10 2015 02:57 KawaiiRice wrote:On February 10 2015 01:42 Tenks wrote:
BW is completely and utterly OP. Arguing against it is very, very foolish. And this is coming from someone who I consider myself a BW main. She brings too much utility, too much map presence, too much healing and too much CC. Playing Lili makes me feel more like a true support where all I can do is minor assist my allies while spamming heals. On BW I can not only outheal Lili who is forced to spec almost all her talents into Brew to even stay at ~75% the healing capacity but now I'm free to add Bribe, a shield, rewind and +25% damage on poly to my toolkit. The character is just plain too good at the moment. Probably need to start by simply lowering her passive heal by a bunch. It feels like she's intended to be played more as a buff/debuff style hero with a bit of flavor of healing. But as it stands I can outheal all characters on BW without even speccing or trying into it. BW's map control and healing is gimped severely when your opponents play a hard engage/eraser style comp. If you have to take cleanse against tyrael/kerrigan your only burst heal is two blink heals (three in 1 fight if you're lucky) which is far less reliable burst healing than Malf, Lili, and Rehgar. God forbid you're forced to take cleanse and emerald - then BW is literally the worst healer in teamfights. Ignore the healing tab for brightwing because it's so padded up during laning phase by her passive and pointless when analyzing an actual teamfight. Also against hard engage you don't have the luxury to split push on a side lane because the other team will hard engage before you have time to tp. BW is good but there are ways to punish her as a pick. You can easily take Emerald Wind and out-perform Malfurion and Lili healing-wise, what are you talking about? The main problem with Brightwing is not that her passive is too good, but that her talents over-all are far more stronger when put together correctly, compared to pretty much every other support. The only reason Malfurion and Uther is up there, is because of their CC (and i'm seeing Malfurions go for Twilight Dream more often than Tranquility, so it's definitely NOT the healing). Like my fucking problem with BW is that i get bribe, envenom/shield, a passive-enhancer, a heal or an AoE-knockback along with fucking rewind and the ability to make my polymorph even stronger (25% damage increase is a lot level 16). On top of that i take storm-shield level 20 almost exclusively, because I'm a greedy bitch who likes to win. Now the main issue here, is two simple things; i have more buttons than any other standard support and my kit overall is stronger than any other standard support. If Li Li had CC, if Malfurion had bribe, you know those small fucking things that makes you wonder how the fuck this game is even balanced to begin with. If they could come up with some sort of absolute standard (i.e all supports get bribe, all supports contribute with CC or healing) then i'd be fine, but when you can easily see that the raw numbers (and buttons) clearly outperform others. I'd really love it if Blizzard went ahead and redesigned their talent trees, because it is an outright joke, an utter shitty amateur performance. It's like a lottery where some heroes in some roles become viable, while others are clearly lacking the tools that their corresponding heroes in said role have. I barely watch EU so I don't know about that but I've only seen malfs run silence in scrims two times in NA (and they failed horribly). Tranq is taken 99% of the time otherwise. Malf tranq is insanely popular in the past two weeks and BW fell off pick order in NA altho just the other day I saw EU FP a brightwing. I also have no idea how you can argue BW can heal more as a malf tranq if they take emerald. That's literally impossible, Either the malf isnt doing anything, or he had no need to heal anyway cause his team was pubstomping or something. Idk about you man, but i just stand right next to my team-members the entire fucking game and i see myself outperforming everyone healing-wise except maybe a full-Q Li Li build. You're missing the point. The context is during a team fight. not while you pad stats with her passive heal. Although, to be fair, the passive heal outside teamfights is hard to quantify. It's not exactly padding since it means less downtime between fights or while laning/mercing or whatever. So it's not actually overhealing (and hence useless). But Brightwing is (correct me if I'm wrong) the weakest burst healer in the game, so I doubt her passive is going to get touched. It's more her utility, she just has too much. Gust of healing gives her burst heals during a team-fight and though it stops passively during your cooldown, it's still more than enough to heal people. I get that it's not as strong as a full-duration Li Li or malfurion ult, but it's still something (and apparently enough to start discussing it). edit: and having no math to go by, means that this semi-pointless discussion could keep on going for ages. My bad... edit2: here's the math. From a level 10 point of view, Brightwing passively gives out 126 healing (36+(9*10)) per second, totaling in a possible 630 healing per second every 4 second. But with Gust of Healing, she gives out 126 healing every second for 4 seconds, meaning the least you go for a single-target "quick burst" is 504 or if you hit all five 2520. And that's in four seconds. Let's compare that to Malfurion: Tranquility gives out 20 health each second to an ally. After 4 seconds, you've given out 80 healing to one target and 400 if you hit all five. After 10 seconds (full duration) you have only done 1000 healing. It isn't as strong as you make it out to be.
Um, at level 10 Malfurion does 110 hps (20 + 9*10). His ult scales the same as Brightwing's heal.
Gust is a lot of healing though, the few times I played Brightwing I took Regenerating Winds, so I forgot about that. But I'm still not convinced Brightwing's healing needs to be nerfed rather than her utility. But I'm not Blizzard so it doesn't really matter what I think.
Edit: For instance compare Gust / Tranq to healing ward. At level 10 assuming you have 2500 hp, then it works out to 75 hps on an easily killed totem. That's not terrible either, albeit on an easily killed totem, but healing is just what healers do.
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Yeah so if you include scaling on malf tranq, you heal... 5500 on 5 targets (110 * 10s * 5 people). Also that's not all because within 10 seconds malf can cast regrowth almost two times (usually casts more than that in a drawn out teamfight) so you need to add that too. That's 172 burst healing + 430 over time * ~2 casts = 1204 so 6704, probably more. Then you have to look at brightwing's heal radius w/ passive too compared tranq and tell me how viable it is to be healing more people than malf in a big teamfight. I can't find numbers on the radius but I'm sure it's far smaller than tranq.
Then add healing ward and I literally can't see how its humanly possible for any malf to be outhealed by a brightwing in an ACTUAL TEAMFIGHT unless:
On February 10 2015 03:28 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2015 03:10 Sponkz wrote:On February 10 2015 02:57 KawaiiRice wrote:On February 10 2015 01:42 Tenks wrote:
BW is completely and utterly OP. Arguing against it is very, very foolish. And this is coming from someone who I consider myself a BW main. She brings too much utility, too much map presence, too much healing and too much CC. Playing Lili makes me feel more like a true support where all I can do is minor assist my allies while spamming heals. On BW I can not only outheal Lili who is forced to spec almost all her talents into Brew to even stay at ~75% the healing capacity but now I'm free to add Bribe, a shield, rewind and +25% damage on poly to my toolkit. The character is just plain too good at the moment. Probably need to start by simply lowering her passive heal by a bunch. It feels like she's intended to be played more as a buff/debuff style hero with a bit of flavor of healing. But as it stands I can outheal all characters on BW without even speccing or trying into it. BW's map control and healing is gimped severely when your opponents play a hard engage/eraser style comp. If you have to take cleanse against tyrael/kerrigan your only burst heal is two blink heals (three in 1 fight if you're lucky) which is far less reliable burst healing than Malf, Lili, and Rehgar. God forbid you're forced to take cleanse and emerald - then BW is literally the worst healer in teamfights. Ignore the healing tab for brightwing because it's so padded up during laning phase by her passive and pointless when analyzing an actual teamfight. Also against hard engage you don't have the luxury to split push on a side lane because the other team will hard engage before you have time to tp. BW is good but there are ways to punish her as a pick. You can easily take Emerald Wind and out-perform Malfurion and Lili healing-wise, what are you talking about? The main problem with Brightwing is not that her passive is too good, but that her talents over-all are far more stronger when put together correctly, compared to pretty much every other support. The only reason Malfurion and Uther is up there, is because of their CC (and i'm seeing Malfurions go for Twilight Dream more often than Tranquility, so it's definitely NOT the healing). Like my fucking problem with BW is that i get bribe, envenom/shield, a passive-enhancer, a heal or an AoE-knockback along with fucking rewind and the ability to make my polymorph even stronger (25% damage increase is a lot level 16). On top of that i take storm-shield level 20 almost exclusively, because I'm a greedy bitch who likes to win. Now the main issue here, is two simple things; i have more buttons than any other standard support and my kit overall is stronger than any other standard support. If Li Li had CC, if Malfurion had bribe, you know those small fucking things that makes you wonder how the fuck this game is even balanced to begin with. If they could come up with some sort of absolute standard (i.e all supports get bribe, all supports contribute with CC or healing) then i'd be fine, but when you can easily see that the raw numbers (and buttons) clearly outperform others. I'd really love it if Blizzard went ahead and redesigned their talent trees, because it is an outright joke, an utter shitty amateur performance. It's like a lottery where some heroes in some roles become viable, while others are clearly lacking the tools that their corresponding heroes in said role have. I barely watch EU so I don't know about that but I've only seen malfs run silence in scrims two times in NA (and they failed horribly). Tranq is taken 99% of the time otherwise. Malf tranq is insanely popular in the past two weeks and BW fell off pick order in NA altho just the other day I saw EU FP a brightwing. I also have no idea how you can argue BW can heal more as a malf tranq if they take emerald. That's literally impossible, Either the malf isnt doing anything, or he had no need to heal anyway cause his team was pubstomping or something.
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But again this circles back. Malf has to talent fairly heavily to become a good healer. I don't play Malf (I'll probably level him up soon) but a quick glance at hotslogs looks like he takes healing talents at: 4 (ward), 7 (growth), 10 (tranq), 13 (seed). While at this time BW gets more utility at these levels. She really only specs into healing at 7 and 10. At the other two talent levels she gains a shield which scales to do absolutely insane anti-burst, she gets to bribe down ogres for free, and she gets to effectively stun a hero for 6 seconds with Rewind (while also mitigating possible burst with double E.) The issue with BW isn't specifically her healing (though it is very, very strong) but the fact she lacks very much downside with the way her talents interact.
I also have a problem with the burst heal argument versus "worthless" heal. BW has a mana-less heal giving her basically limitless sustain. So by herself she can solo lane very easily and her E is a fairly reliable escape if you see a gank coming. From my experience playing against Malfs is that he is not a very strong solo laner and can easily go OOM if he is spamming heals and roots to zone. So having a BW on your team frees your team up to have your support as a very competent solo laner. So now it is suddenly easier to gain an early game advantage (we'll even ignore Z'ing into someone and putting a shield on them and suddenly a 1v1 gank turns into a 2v1 counter-gank) simply by her very strong laning presence. She isn't as good in lane solo as like an Azmo, Zag or Gaz but she is very competent at the role. And this is accomplished by her non-burst "worthless" healing.
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On February 10 2015 04:56 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2015 04:26 Sponkz wrote:On February 10 2015 04:15 Wuster wrote:On February 10 2015 03:45 Sponkz wrote:On February 10 2015 03:25 Hryul wrote:On February 10 2015 03:10 Sponkz wrote:
You can easily take Emerald Wind and out-perform Malfurion and Lili healing-wise, what are you talking about?
as others have pointed out: the raw numbers from the healing tab don't mean anything. the healing that matters is the one from team fight and especially that on the focused target. BW doesn't shine there with her passive, but gives a bit relieve with the shield. the numbers of her healing are inflated because she heals all the time. She definitely shines with her passive, how can you say she doesn´t? After level 7, you either get the gust of healing or regenerative mist, which makes your passive go from semi-decent to nearly OP. Although i can semi-agree that the stats-tab is kinda useless in real games (aka competent 5v5 no MMR-flux or anything), but one thing is that Soothing Mist is AoE, more-so that you play Brightwing for positioning meaning that you wanna pile up (or be the one who makes it looks like you're piled up). This is also why someone mentioned earlier that hard-engage outright destroys her, because it's so easy to get off a nasty AoE wombo-combo on a Brightwing, since her healing slowly catches up over time. I personally cannot decide if blink heal is worth it or not, i guess we will see when they gut her passive to the ground. I don't think working on her other abilities' scaling would help, maybe nerfing Critterize and Gust of Healing would be a great start. On February 10 2015 03:28 KawaiiRice wrote:On February 10 2015 03:10 Sponkz wrote:On February 10 2015 02:57 KawaiiRice wrote:On February 10 2015 01:42 Tenks wrote:
BW is completely and utterly OP. Arguing against it is very, very foolish. And this is coming from someone who I consider myself a BW main. She brings too much utility, too much map presence, too much healing and too much CC. Playing Lili makes me feel more like a true support where all I can do is minor assist my allies while spamming heals. On BW I can not only outheal Lili who is forced to spec almost all her talents into Brew to even stay at ~75% the healing capacity but now I'm free to add Bribe, a shield, rewind and +25% damage on poly to my toolkit. The character is just plain too good at the moment. Probably need to start by simply lowering her passive heal by a bunch. It feels like she's intended to be played more as a buff/debuff style hero with a bit of flavor of healing. But as it stands I can outheal all characters on BW without even speccing or trying into it. BW's map control and healing is gimped severely when your opponents play a hard engage/eraser style comp. If you have to take cleanse against tyrael/kerrigan your only burst heal is two blink heals (three in 1 fight if you're lucky) which is far less reliable burst healing than Malf, Lili, and Rehgar. God forbid you're forced to take cleanse and emerald - then BW is literally the worst healer in teamfights. Ignore the healing tab for brightwing because it's so padded up during laning phase by her passive and pointless when analyzing an actual teamfight. Also against hard engage you don't have the luxury to split push on a side lane because the other team will hard engage before you have time to tp. BW is good but there are ways to punish her as a pick. You can easily take Emerald Wind and out-perform Malfurion and Lili healing-wise, what are you talking about? The main problem with Brightwing is not that her passive is too good, but that her talents over-all are far more stronger when put together correctly, compared to pretty much every other support. The only reason Malfurion and Uther is up there, is because of their CC (and i'm seeing Malfurions go for Twilight Dream more often than Tranquility, so it's definitely NOT the healing). Like my fucking problem with BW is that i get bribe, envenom/shield, a passive-enhancer, a heal or an AoE-knockback along with fucking rewind and the ability to make my polymorph even stronger (25% damage increase is a lot level 16). On top of that i take storm-shield level 20 almost exclusively, because I'm a greedy bitch who likes to win. Now the main issue here, is two simple things; i have more buttons than any other standard support and my kit overall is stronger than any other standard support. If Li Li had CC, if Malfurion had bribe, you know those small fucking things that makes you wonder how the fuck this game is even balanced to begin with. If they could come up with some sort of absolute standard (i.e all supports get bribe, all supports contribute with CC or healing) then i'd be fine, but when you can easily see that the raw numbers (and buttons) clearly outperform others. I'd really love it if Blizzard went ahead and redesigned their talent trees, because it is an outright joke, an utter shitty amateur performance. It's like a lottery where some heroes in some roles become viable, while others are clearly lacking the tools that their corresponding heroes in said role have. I barely watch EU so I don't know about that but I've only seen malfs run silence in scrims two times in NA (and they failed horribly). Tranq is taken 99% of the time otherwise. Malf tranq is insanely popular in the past two weeks and BW fell off pick order in NA altho just the other day I saw EU FP a brightwing. I also have no idea how you can argue BW can heal more as a malf tranq if they take emerald. That's literally impossible, Either the malf isnt doing anything, or he had no need to heal anyway cause his team was pubstomping or something. Idk about you man, but i just stand right next to my team-members the entire fucking game and i see myself outperforming everyone healing-wise except maybe a full-Q Li Li build. You're missing the point. The context is during a team fight. not while you pad stats with her passive heal. Although, to be fair, the passive heal outside teamfights is hard to quantify. It's not exactly padding since it means less downtime between fights or while laning/mercing or whatever. So it's not actually overhealing (and hence useless). But Brightwing is (correct me if I'm wrong) the weakest burst healer in the game, so I doubt her passive is going to get touched. It's more her utility, she just has too much. Gust of healing gives her burst heals during a team-fight and though it stops passively during your cooldown, it's still more than enough to heal people. I get that it's not as strong as a full-duration Li Li or malfurion ult, but it's still something (and apparently enough to start discussing it). edit: and having no math to go by, means that this semi-pointless discussion could keep on going for ages. My bad... edit2: here's the math. From a level 10 point of view, Brightwing passively gives out 126 healing (36+(9*10)) per second, totaling in a possible 630 healing per second every 4 second. But with Gust of Healing, she gives out 126 healing every second for 4 seconds, meaning the least you go for a single-target "quick burst" is 504 or if you hit all five 2520. And that's in four seconds. Let's compare that to Malfurion: Tranquility gives out 20 health each second to an ally. After 4 seconds, you've given out 80 healing to one target and 400 if you hit all five. After 10 seconds (full duration) you have only done 1000 healing. It isn't as strong as you make it out to be. Um, at level 10 Malfurion does 110 hps (20 + 9*10). His ult scales the same as Brightwing's heal. Gust is a lot of healing though, the few times I played Brightwing I took Regenerating Winds, so I forgot about that. But I'm still not convinced Brightwing's healing needs to be nerfed rather than her utility. But I'm not Blizzard so it doesn't really matter what I think. Edit: For instance compare Gust / Tranq to healing ward. At level 10 assuming you have 2500 hp, then it works out to 75 hps on an easily killed totem. That's not terrible either, albeit on an easily killed totem, but healing is just what healers do.
Oh, my bad, i miss-interpreted the number as being the base for level 10 and didn't take the previous levels' scaling into account. It makes more sense now (no math genius I'm afraid) 
So that means Malfurion heals for 2200 after 4 seconds but Brightwing can heal for 2505 in 4 seconds. In prolonged fights he should be winning  I guess that's why it feels like the meta is slowly shifting over to double support, to compensate for that individualism that lies in Brightwing (and to some extent Uther).
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On February 10 2015 05:32 Tenks wrote:
But again this circles back. Malf has to talent fairly heavily to become a good healer. I don't play Malf (I'll probably level him up soon) but a quick glance at hotslogs looks like he takes healing talents at: 4 (ward), 7 (growth), 10 (tranq), 13 (seed). While at this time BW gets more utility at these levels. She really only specs into healing at 7 and 10. At the other two talent levels she gains a shield which scales to do absolutely insane anti-burst, she gets to bribe down ogres for free, and she gets to effectively stun a hero for 6 seconds with Rewind (while also mitigating possible burst with double E.) The issue with BW isn't specifically her healing (though it is very, very strong) but the fact she lacks very much downside with the way her talents interact.
I also have a problem with the burst heal argument versus "worthless" heal. BW has a mana-less heal giving her basically limitless sustain. So by herself she can solo lane very easily and her E is a fairly reliable escape if you see a gank coming. From my experience playing against Malfs is that he is not a very strong solo laner and can easily go OOM if he is spamming heals and roots to zone. So having a BW on your team frees your team up to have your support as a very competent solo laner. So now it is suddenly easier to gain an early game advantage (we'll even ignore Z'ing into someone and putting a shield on them and suddenly a 1v1 gank turns into a 2v1 counter-gank) simply by her very strong laning presence. She isn't as good in lane solo as like an Azmo, Zag or Gaz but she is very competent at the role. And this is accomplished by her non-burst "worthless" healing.
Malf is about as good in a 1v1 lane as BW and the only downside is not being able to rotate to tributes instantly. He can go even with squishy carries and gets shoved in by tanks that can self sustain all the poke. This is slightly different if your opponent is god awful and sits in every brightwing Q then sure the BW will win hard. I've zoned bad players from almost 2k xp before level 10 by myself as BW. However malf shines in trilanes rather than solo because he can combo cc and give mana to mana-heavy champs. BW also provides a lot in tri lanes if theres very low gank threat/low kill potential. She shines in poke lanes because she can throw out tons of poke, tank damage/towers and abuse Z to port back into lane.
The argument about mana sustain is only relevant in early game before conjurer's kicks in giving malf far more regen to the point where mana costs are irrelevant. There's a tradeoff there because bw heals are so spread out making you or lane partners very vulnerable to burst. This is why other healers are better than BW early game if the other team has high ganking or kill potential.
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To be fair mana regen is of almost no consequence to BW past the early game as well since she can just B/Z and be at full mana and back to helping her team in no time.
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I think we can all agree that both have very nice healing and vastly different kits. With that said, BW is a very safe pick with a hard CC + her E. Her Q is very slow and easy to dodge, but can deal nice damage if it lands. Malf also has a nice heal, his trait is awesome for early laning (pity it can't be self casted), and his moonfire is really what makes him different from bw. It's long range, fast cooldown, costs barely any mana, has decent usage in revealing cloaked units, and decent damage contribution in team fights.
With BW, more skill should be required to play her well. Map awareness, positioning in team fights to take advantage of her heal, CCing the right targets, etc. But oddly enough, Bronze tier suggests otherwise with 49% winrate vs Malf's 42%. Perhaps the capability of being anywhere on the map removes a lot of low tier mistakes where the malf might be halfway across the map when needed, but the bw can just simply pop in and win. Or maybe because it's locked behind a 10k paywall more experienced players play her while Malf is probably one of the first heroes bought for a lot of players. Regardless, I still feel brightwing to be a higher skill cap hero, which means she will be stronger when played by the right player.
As to whether she needs a nerf, I think it's a bad idea. As someone stated before, double poly isn't that strong if you have cleanse, and the cd on rewind will really prevent it being used within the same teamfight. What really needs to happen is a bigger pool of supports that make healing optional. Right now, everyone in pubs keeps asking for bw/uther picks because they offer the most as support (heal + strong cc + defensive buffs). Make a support hero like dota heroes where it's mostly nukes/cc/passives and that might really make drafts more unique.
A bigger more varied hero pool is required before we start nerfing, unless there's clearly something wrong (nova's ability to burst from 100-0 prepatch).
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I dunno I hope Blizzard finds a way of making healing work in this game. I know it doesn't exist (or is very, very limited) in LoL and DOTA for good reason but with how vasty different Heroes functions than those two games I think they can strike a balance. But as it stands right now you are pretty much required to run at least 1 healer. Which I suppose isn't too different than DOTA with their 1-5 and you can talent some supports into a more offensive role combined with some support a-la a 3 spot or something.
I like the feeling of support in this game having some fun as well. I would constantly and begrudgingly take the 4-5 spot in DOTA and I hated it. Having to spend money on wards, refusing to take last hit and overall being nothing more than someone that runs up and does some CC and prays someone else does something. I like supports here being a bit more self sufficient.
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On February 10 2015 05:16 KawaiiRice wrote:Yeah so if you include scaling on malf tranq, you heal... 5500 on 5 targets (110 * 10s * 5 people). Also that's not all because within 10 seconds malf can cast regrowth almost two times (usually casts more than that in a drawn out teamfight) so you need to add that too. That's 172 burst healing + 430 over time * ~2 casts = 1204 so 6704, probably more. Then you have to look at brightwing's heal radius w/ passive too compared tranq and tell me how viable it is to be healing more people than malf in a big teamfight. I can't find numbers on the radius but I'm sure it's far smaller than tranq. Then add healing ward and I literally can't see how its humanly possible for any malf to be outhealed by a brightwing in an ACTUAL TEAMFIGHT unless: Show nested quote +On February 10 2015 03:28 KawaiiRice wrote:On February 10 2015 03:10 Sponkz wrote:On February 10 2015 02:57 KawaiiRice wrote:On February 10 2015 01:42 Tenks wrote:
BW is completely and utterly OP. Arguing against it is very, very foolish. And this is coming from someone who I consider myself a BW main. She brings too much utility, too much map presence, too much healing and too much CC. Playing Lili makes me feel more like a true support where all I can do is minor assist my allies while spamming heals. On BW I can not only outheal Lili who is forced to spec almost all her talents into Brew to even stay at ~75% the healing capacity but now I'm free to add Bribe, a shield, rewind and +25% damage on poly to my toolkit. The character is just plain too good at the moment. Probably need to start by simply lowering her passive heal by a bunch. It feels like she's intended to be played more as a buff/debuff style hero with a bit of flavor of healing. But as it stands I can outheal all characters on BW without even speccing or trying into it. BW's map control and healing is gimped severely when your opponents play a hard engage/eraser style comp. If you have to take cleanse against tyrael/kerrigan your only burst heal is two blink heals (three in 1 fight if you're lucky) which is far less reliable burst healing than Malf, Lili, and Rehgar. God forbid you're forced to take cleanse and emerald - then BW is literally the worst healer in teamfights. Ignore the healing tab for brightwing because it's so padded up during laning phase by her passive and pointless when analyzing an actual teamfight. Also against hard engage you don't have the luxury to split push on a side lane because the other team will hard engage before you have time to tp. BW is good but there are ways to punish her as a pick. You can easily take Emerald Wind and out-perform Malfurion and Lili healing-wise, what are you talking about? The main problem with Brightwing is not that her passive is too good, but that her talents over-all are far more stronger when put together correctly, compared to pretty much every other support. The only reason Malfurion and Uther is up there, is because of their CC (and i'm seeing Malfurions go for Twilight Dream more often than Tranquility, so it's definitely NOT the healing). Like my fucking problem with BW is that i get bribe, envenom/shield, a passive-enhancer, a heal or an AoE-knockback along with fucking rewind and the ability to make my polymorph even stronger (25% damage increase is a lot level 16). On top of that i take storm-shield level 20 almost exclusively, because I'm a greedy bitch who likes to win. Now the main issue here, is two simple things; i have more buttons than any other standard support and my kit overall is stronger than any other standard support. If Li Li had CC, if Malfurion had bribe, you know those small fucking things that makes you wonder how the fuck this game is even balanced to begin with. If they could come up with some sort of absolute standard (i.e all supports get bribe, all supports contribute with CC or healing) then i'd be fine, but when you can easily see that the raw numbers (and buttons) clearly outperform others. I'd really love it if Blizzard went ahead and redesigned their talent trees, because it is an outright joke, an utter shitty amateur performance. It's like a lottery where some heroes in some roles become viable, while others are clearly lacking the tools that their corresponding heroes in said role have. I barely watch EU so I don't know about that but I've only seen malfs run silence in scrims two times in NA (and they failed horribly). Tranq is taken 99% of the time otherwise. Malf tranq is insanely popular in the past two weeks and BW fell off pick order in NA altho just the other day I saw EU FP a brightwing. I also have no idea how you can argue BW can heal more as a malf tranq if they take emerald. That's literally impossible, Either the malf isnt doing anything, or he had no need to heal anyway cause his team was pubstomping or something.
I'm trying to figure out why there's a need to have this conversation. BW isn't really a healer-centric support. She does some healing, but she sure as hell is not an "elite healer" like some of the other options out there. I feel like people get way too caught up looking at the in game stats when gauging what a hero is actually contributing to the team. It's the same with healing stats as it is with hero damage. I'm tired of gold and platinum-level newbs telling me that I'm a shit Zeratul when I have relatively low hero damage but I've gotten my team virtually every hero kill that we have (and why I am matched up with gold and platinum newbs anyway, Blizz?!?!?). BW shits out all sorts of relatively unimportant healing. The only healing that really matters is the healing that really sustains a hero in a fight, which is why Rehgar's ult is so damned strong.
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On February 10 2015 03:49 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2015 03:34 deth2munkies wrote:On February 10 2015 03:25 Hryul wrote:On February 10 2015 03:10 Sponkz wrote:
You can easily take Emerald Wind and out-perform Malfurion and Lili healing-wise, what are you talking about?
as others have pointed out: the raw numbers from the healing tab don't mean anything. the healing that matters is the one from team fight and especially that on the focused target. BW doesn't shine there with her passive, but gives a bit relieve with the shield. the numbers of her healing are inflated because she heals all the time. The problem is simply that she has the best disengage ability in the game to counter hard engage comps, and constant, AoE healing to deal with poke comps running stuff like W build Valla. Not to mention Poly + Rewind can effectively take out their 2 highest damage dealers in a way no other support can. She's by far the best support in the game, bar none, in any reasonable team comp. You can build your team to beat Brightwing, but it requires you to do suboptimal things, like build on-hit Valla + Raynor to be able to burst any target in the game down through BW (plus stuns or hooks). Honestly, she needs to lose Rewind and maybe 2 extra seconds between passive ticks. EDIT: @above Malf tranq is a channeled ability. If BW takes and uses Gusts of Healing effectively and has a team that can interrupt Tranq, she can definitely outheal Malf by a lot. Especially if he doesn't take Life Seed. I'm not sure about competitive, but given how ubiquitous Stitches is with the Slam range and Slam ministun talents, it becomes infeasible that Malf will ever get a full Tranq off. Malf tranq is not interruptable, and since last patch runs while in ice block. Running a full tranq is completely viable, what are you talking about...
It absolutely used to be, though I haven't played him (or even seen a Malf with tranq) since the last patch. He was my most played support pre-beta with Brightwing close behind.
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On February 10 2015 06:15 Tenks wrote:
I dunno I hope Blizzard finds a way of making healing work in this game. I know it doesn't exist (or is very, very limited) in LoL and DOTA for good reason but with how vasty different Heroes functions than those two games I think they can strike a balance. But as it stands right now you are pretty much required to run at least 1 healer. Which I suppose isn't too different than DOTA with their 1-5 and you can talent some supports into a more offensive role combined with some support a-la a 3 spot or something.
I like the feeling of support in this game having some fun as well. I would constantly and begrudgingly take the 4-5 spot in DOTA and I hated it. Having to spend money on wards, refusing to take last hit and overall being nothing more than someone that runs up and does some CC and prays someone else does something. I like supports here being a bit more self sufficient.
I feel ya, I mained support in dota and while I liked the aspect of playing shot caller, being stuck babysitting/pulling then running around with boots/wards trying to coordinate ganks isn't exactly fun all the time.
The way blizzard classifies heroes is very ambiguous. Jaina, for example, is an assassin in a style of LoL's APC, but she needs icy veins for it to really work. Otherwise, she's just a slow generator with nukes that can self-amplify damage until she takes the cone of cold + 25% amp dmg. Jaina doesn't even get gathering power. Then you get heroes like tyrande, which is probably the most dota-like support hero. Ranged aoe stun, amp damage trait, global skillshot with detection, trueshot aura. Her weak heal is a very small bonus to her otherwise very nice kit.
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On February 10 2015 05:46 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2015 04:56 Wuster wrote:On February 10 2015 04:26 Sponkz wrote:On February 10 2015 04:15 Wuster wrote:On February 10 2015 03:45 Sponkz wrote:On February 10 2015 03:25 Hryul wrote:On February 10 2015 03:10 Sponkz wrote:
You can easily take Emerald Wind and out-perform Malfurion and Lili healing-wise, what are you talking about?
as others have pointed out: the raw numbers from the healing tab don't mean anything. the healing that matters is the one from team fight and especially that on the focused target. BW doesn't shine there with her passive, but gives a bit relieve with the shield. the numbers of her healing are inflated because she heals all the time. She definitely shines with her passive, how can you say she doesn´t? After level 7, you either get the gust of healing or regenerative mist, which makes your passive go from semi-decent to nearly OP. Although i can semi-agree that the stats-tab is kinda useless in real games (aka competent 5v5 no MMR-flux or anything), but one thing is that Soothing Mist is AoE, more-so that you play Brightwing for positioning meaning that you wanna pile up (or be the one who makes it looks like you're piled up). This is also why someone mentioned earlier that hard-engage outright destroys her, because it's so easy to get off a nasty AoE wombo-combo on a Brightwing, since her healing slowly catches up over time. I personally cannot decide if blink heal is worth it or not, i guess we will see when they gut her passive to the ground. I don't think working on her other abilities' scaling would help, maybe nerfing Critterize and Gust of Healing would be a great start. On February 10 2015 03:28 KawaiiRice wrote:On February 10 2015 03:10 Sponkz wrote:On February 10 2015 02:57 KawaiiRice wrote:On February 10 2015 01:42 Tenks wrote:
BW is completely and utterly OP. Arguing against it is very, very foolish. And this is coming from someone who I consider myself a BW main. She brings too much utility, too much map presence, too much healing and too much CC. Playing Lili makes me feel more like a true support where all I can do is minor assist my allies while spamming heals. On BW I can not only outheal Lili who is forced to spec almost all her talents into Brew to even stay at ~75% the healing capacity but now I'm free to add Bribe, a shield, rewind and +25% damage on poly to my toolkit. The character is just plain too good at the moment. Probably need to start by simply lowering her passive heal by a bunch. It feels like she's intended to be played more as a buff/debuff style hero with a bit of flavor of healing. But as it stands I can outheal all characters on BW without even speccing or trying into it. BW's map control and healing is gimped severely when your opponents play a hard engage/eraser style comp. If you have to take cleanse against tyrael/kerrigan your only burst heal is two blink heals (three in 1 fight if you're lucky) which is far less reliable burst healing than Malf, Lili, and Rehgar. God forbid you're forced to take cleanse and emerald - then BW is literally the worst healer in teamfights. Ignore the healing tab for brightwing because it's so padded up during laning phase by her passive and pointless when analyzing an actual teamfight. Also against hard engage you don't have the luxury to split push on a side lane because the other team will hard engage before you have time to tp. BW is good but there are ways to punish her as a pick. You can easily take Emerald Wind and out-perform Malfurion and Lili healing-wise, what are you talking about? The main problem with Brightwing is not that her passive is too good, but that her talents over-all are far more stronger when put together correctly, compared to pretty much every other support. The only reason Malfurion and Uther is up there, is because of their CC (and i'm seeing Malfurions go for Twilight Dream more often than Tranquility, so it's definitely NOT the healing). Like my fucking problem with BW is that i get bribe, envenom/shield, a passive-enhancer, a heal or an AoE-knockback along with fucking rewind and the ability to make my polymorph even stronger (25% damage increase is a lot level 16). On top of that i take storm-shield level 20 almost exclusively, because I'm a greedy bitch who likes to win. Now the main issue here, is two simple things; i have more buttons than any other standard support and my kit overall is stronger than any other standard support. If Li Li had CC, if Malfurion had bribe, you know those small fucking things that makes you wonder how the fuck this game is even balanced to begin with. If they could come up with some sort of absolute standard (i.e all supports get bribe, all supports contribute with CC or healing) then i'd be fine, but when you can easily see that the raw numbers (and buttons) clearly outperform others. I'd really love it if Blizzard went ahead and redesigned their talent trees, because it is an outright joke, an utter shitty amateur performance. It's like a lottery where some heroes in some roles become viable, while others are clearly lacking the tools that their corresponding heroes in said role have. I barely watch EU so I don't know about that but I've only seen malfs run silence in scrims two times in NA (and they failed horribly). Tranq is taken 99% of the time otherwise. Malf tranq is insanely popular in the past two weeks and BW fell off pick order in NA altho just the other day I saw EU FP a brightwing. I also have no idea how you can argue BW can heal more as a malf tranq if they take emerald. That's literally impossible, Either the malf isnt doing anything, or he had no need to heal anyway cause his team was pubstomping or something. Idk about you man, but i just stand right next to my team-members the entire fucking game and i see myself outperforming everyone healing-wise except maybe a full-Q Li Li build. You're missing the point. The context is during a team fight. not while you pad stats with her passive heal. Although, to be fair, the passive heal outside teamfights is hard to quantify. It's not exactly padding since it means less downtime between fights or while laning/mercing or whatever. So it's not actually overhealing (and hence useless). But Brightwing is (correct me if I'm wrong) the weakest burst healer in the game, so I doubt her passive is going to get touched. It's more her utility, she just has too much. Gust of healing gives her burst heals during a team-fight and though it stops passively during your cooldown, it's still more than enough to heal people. I get that it's not as strong as a full-duration Li Li or malfurion ult, but it's still something (and apparently enough to start discussing it). edit: and having no math to go by, means that this semi-pointless discussion could keep on going for ages. My bad... edit2: here's the math. From a level 10 point of view, Brightwing passively gives out 126 healing (36+(9*10)) per second, totaling in a possible 630 healing per second every 4 second. But with Gust of Healing, she gives out 126 healing every second for 4 seconds, meaning the least you go for a single-target "quick burst" is 504 or if you hit all five 2520. And that's in four seconds. Let's compare that to Malfurion: Tranquility gives out 20 health each second to an ally. After 4 seconds, you've given out 80 healing to one target and 400 if you hit all five. After 10 seconds (full duration) you have only done 1000 healing. It isn't as strong as you make it out to be. Um, at level 10 Malfurion does 110 hps (20 + 9*10). His ult scales the same as Brightwing's heal. Gust is a lot of healing though, the few times I played Brightwing I took Regenerating Winds, so I forgot about that. But I'm still not convinced Brightwing's healing needs to be nerfed rather than her utility. But I'm not Blizzard so it doesn't really matter what I think. Edit: For instance compare Gust / Tranq to healing ward. At level 10 assuming you have 2500 hp, then it works out to 75 hps on an easily killed totem. That's not terrible either, albeit on an easily killed totem, but healing is just what healers do. Oh, my bad, i miss-interpreted the number as being the base for level 10 and didn't take the previous levels' scaling into account. It makes more sense now (no math genius I'm afraid) So that means Malfurion heals for 2200 after 4 seconds but Brightwing can heal for 2505 in 4 seconds. In prolonged fights he should be winning I guess that's why it feels like the meta is slowly shifting over to double support, to compensate for that individualism that lies in Brightwing (and to some extent Uther).
I do that all the time too. My brain keeps thinking the base numbers for heroics at lvl 1 make no sense.
Anyways to shift gears a bit. Bliss just published a blog on Hero League today:
http://us.battle.net/heroes/en/blog/17906506
So each rank is actually 2% of the player population which makes a lot more sense (the previous interview how the guy kept saying 2.5% this, 2.5% that).
Also a preview on Team League. I don't expect to play it to much but the first come first pick system sounds awful, plus no mention of bans in Team draft. I would have thought that would be a no-brainer but I guess not.
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On February 10 2015 08:30 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2015 05:46 Sponkz wrote:On February 10 2015 04:56 Wuster wrote:On February 10 2015 04:26 Sponkz wrote:On February 10 2015 04:15 Wuster wrote:On February 10 2015 03:45 Sponkz wrote:On February 10 2015 03:25 Hryul wrote:On February 10 2015 03:10 Sponkz wrote:
You can easily take Emerald Wind and out-perform Malfurion and Lili healing-wise, what are you talking about?
as others have pointed out: the raw numbers from the healing tab don't mean anything. the healing that matters is the one from team fight and especially that on the focused target. BW doesn't shine there with her passive, but gives a bit relieve with the shield. the numbers of her healing are inflated because she heals all the time. She definitely shines with her passive, how can you say she doesn´t? After level 7, you either get the gust of healing or regenerative mist, which makes your passive go from semi-decent to nearly OP. Although i can semi-agree that the stats-tab is kinda useless in real games (aka competent 5v5 no MMR-flux or anything), but one thing is that Soothing Mist is AoE, more-so that you play Brightwing for positioning meaning that you wanna pile up (or be the one who makes it looks like you're piled up). This is also why someone mentioned earlier that hard-engage outright destroys her, because it's so easy to get off a nasty AoE wombo-combo on a Brightwing, since her healing slowly catches up over time. I personally cannot decide if blink heal is worth it or not, i guess we will see when they gut her passive to the ground. I don't think working on her other abilities' scaling would help, maybe nerfing Critterize and Gust of Healing would be a great start. On February 10 2015 03:28 KawaiiRice wrote:On February 10 2015 03:10 Sponkz wrote:On February 10 2015 02:57 KawaiiRice wrote:On February 10 2015 01:42 Tenks wrote:
BW is completely and utterly OP. Arguing against it is very, very foolish. And this is coming from someone who I consider myself a BW main. She brings too much utility, too much map presence, too much healing and too much CC. Playing Lili makes me feel more like a true support where all I can do is minor assist my allies while spamming heals. On BW I can not only outheal Lili who is forced to spec almost all her talents into Brew to even stay at ~75% the healing capacity but now I'm free to add Bribe, a shield, rewind and +25% damage on poly to my toolkit. The character is just plain too good at the moment. Probably need to start by simply lowering her passive heal by a bunch. It feels like she's intended to be played more as a buff/debuff style hero with a bit of flavor of healing. But as it stands I can outheal all characters on BW without even speccing or trying into it. BW's map control and healing is gimped severely when your opponents play a hard engage/eraser style comp. If you have to take cleanse against tyrael/kerrigan your only burst heal is two blink heals (three in 1 fight if you're lucky) which is far less reliable burst healing than Malf, Lili, and Rehgar. God forbid you're forced to take cleanse and emerald - then BW is literally the worst healer in teamfights. Ignore the healing tab for brightwing because it's so padded up during laning phase by her passive and pointless when analyzing an actual teamfight. Also against hard engage you don't have the luxury to split push on a side lane because the other team will hard engage before you have time to tp. BW is good but there are ways to punish her as a pick. You can easily take Emerald Wind and out-perform Malfurion and Lili healing-wise, what are you talking about? The main problem with Brightwing is not that her passive is too good, but that her talents over-all are far more stronger when put together correctly, compared to pretty much every other support. The only reason Malfurion and Uther is up there, is because of their CC (and i'm seeing Malfurions go for Twilight Dream more often than Tranquility, so it's definitely NOT the healing). Like my fucking problem with BW is that i get bribe, envenom/shield, a passive-enhancer, a heal or an AoE-knockback along with fucking rewind and the ability to make my polymorph even stronger (25% damage increase is a lot level 16). On top of that i take storm-shield level 20 almost exclusively, because I'm a greedy bitch who likes to win. Now the main issue here, is two simple things; i have more buttons than any other standard support and my kit overall is stronger than any other standard support. If Li Li had CC, if Malfurion had bribe, you know those small fucking things that makes you wonder how the fuck this game is even balanced to begin with. If they could come up with some sort of absolute standard (i.e all supports get bribe, all supports contribute with CC or healing) then i'd be fine, but when you can easily see that the raw numbers (and buttons) clearly outperform others. I'd really love it if Blizzard went ahead and redesigned their talent trees, because it is an outright joke, an utter shitty amateur performance. It's like a lottery where some heroes in some roles become viable, while others are clearly lacking the tools that their corresponding heroes in said role have. I barely watch EU so I don't know about that but I've only seen malfs run silence in scrims two times in NA (and they failed horribly). Tranq is taken 99% of the time otherwise. Malf tranq is insanely popular in the past two weeks and BW fell off pick order in NA altho just the other day I saw EU FP a brightwing. I also have no idea how you can argue BW can heal more as a malf tranq if they take emerald. That's literally impossible, Either the malf isnt doing anything, or he had no need to heal anyway cause his team was pubstomping or something. Idk about you man, but i just stand right next to my team-members the entire fucking game and i see myself outperforming everyone healing-wise except maybe a full-Q Li Li build. You're missing the point. The context is during a team fight. not while you pad stats with her passive heal. Although, to be fair, the passive heal outside teamfights is hard to quantify. It's not exactly padding since it means less downtime between fights or while laning/mercing or whatever. So it's not actually overhealing (and hence useless). But Brightwing is (correct me if I'm wrong) the weakest burst healer in the game, so I doubt her passive is going to get touched. It's more her utility, she just has too much. Gust of healing gives her burst heals during a team-fight and though it stops passively during your cooldown, it's still more than enough to heal people. I get that it's not as strong as a full-duration Li Li or malfurion ult, but it's still something (and apparently enough to start discussing it). edit: and having no math to go by, means that this semi-pointless discussion could keep on going for ages. My bad... edit2: here's the math. From a level 10 point of view, Brightwing passively gives out 126 healing (36+(9*10)) per second, totaling in a possible 630 healing per second every 4 second. But with Gust of Healing, she gives out 126 healing every second for 4 seconds, meaning the least you go for a single-target "quick burst" is 504 or if you hit all five 2520. And that's in four seconds. Let's compare that to Malfurion: Tranquility gives out 20 health each second to an ally. After 4 seconds, you've given out 80 healing to one target and 400 if you hit all five. After 10 seconds (full duration) you have only done 1000 healing. It isn't as strong as you make it out to be. Um, at level 10 Malfurion does 110 hps (20 + 9*10). His ult scales the same as Brightwing's heal. Gust is a lot of healing though, the few times I played Brightwing I took Regenerating Winds, so I forgot about that. But I'm still not convinced Brightwing's healing needs to be nerfed rather than her utility. But I'm not Blizzard so it doesn't really matter what I think. Edit: For instance compare Gust / Tranq to healing ward. At level 10 assuming you have 2500 hp, then it works out to 75 hps on an easily killed totem. That's not terrible either, albeit on an easily killed totem, but healing is just what healers do. Oh, my bad, i miss-interpreted the number as being the base for level 10 and didn't take the previous levels' scaling into account. It makes more sense now (no math genius I'm afraid) So that means Malfurion heals for 2200 after 4 seconds but Brightwing can heal for 2505 in 4 seconds. In prolonged fights he should be winning I guess that's why it feels like the meta is slowly shifting over to double support, to compensate for that individualism that lies in Brightwing (and to some extent Uther). I do that all the time too. My brain keeps thinking the base numbers for heroics at lvl 1 make no sense. Anyways to shift gears a bit. Bliss just published a blog on Hero League today: http://us.battle.net/heroes/en/blog/17906506So each rank is actually 2% of the player population which makes a lot more sense (the previous interview how the guy kept saying 2.5% this, 2.5% that). Also a preview on Team League. I don't expect to play it to much but the first come first pick system sounds awful, plus no mention of bans in Team draft. I would have thought that would be a no-brainer but I guess not.
Yeah, I saw that post. Meaningless horseshit as far as I am concerned. It doesn't matter what the ranks represent when players are being matched with people they shouldn't be matched with. Case in point: I just played a game where my team had Zeratul (me), Muradin, Nazeebo, Rehgar, and Tychus. Other team had Falstad, Stitches, Nova, Tassadar, and Zagara. Should be pretty obvious which team would win, right? Well, no sooner than am I thinking that I have this in the bag than I notice that Tychus is dying every 2 minutes and picked fucking laser drill as his heroic of all things. Even worse, Nazeebo took gargantuan over ravenous spirit when the only interrupt on the other team was Zagara. My god. We barely won and had to come back 5 forts/keeps to 2. Game didn't flip until level 16 (double bombs ftw).
Seriously: how the fuck is this good matchmaking?
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On February 10 2015 08:30 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2015 05:46 Sponkz wrote:On February 10 2015 04:56 Wuster wrote:On February 10 2015 04:26 Sponkz wrote:On February 10 2015 04:15 Wuster wrote:On February 10 2015 03:45 Sponkz wrote:On February 10 2015 03:25 Hryul wrote:On February 10 2015 03:10 Sponkz wrote:
You can easily take Emerald Wind and out-perform Malfurion and Lili healing-wise, what are you talking about?
as others have pointed out: the raw numbers from the healing tab don't mean anything. the healing that matters is the one from team fight and especially that on the focused target. BW doesn't shine there with her passive, but gives a bit relieve with the shield. the numbers of her healing are inflated because she heals all the time. She definitely shines with her passive, how can you say she doesn´t? After level 7, you either get the gust of healing or regenerative mist, which makes your passive go from semi-decent to nearly OP. Although i can semi-agree that the stats-tab is kinda useless in real games (aka competent 5v5 no MMR-flux or anything), but one thing is that Soothing Mist is AoE, more-so that you play Brightwing for positioning meaning that you wanna pile up (or be the one who makes it looks like you're piled up). This is also why someone mentioned earlier that hard-engage outright destroys her, because it's so easy to get off a nasty AoE wombo-combo on a Brightwing, since her healing slowly catches up over time. I personally cannot decide if blink heal is worth it or not, i guess we will see when they gut her passive to the ground. I don't think working on her other abilities' scaling would help, maybe nerfing Critterize and Gust of Healing would be a great start. On February 10 2015 03:28 KawaiiRice wrote:On February 10 2015 03:10 Sponkz wrote:On February 10 2015 02:57 KawaiiRice wrote:On February 10 2015 01:42 Tenks wrote:
BW is completely and utterly OP. Arguing against it is very, very foolish. And this is coming from someone who I consider myself a BW main. She brings too much utility, too much map presence, too much healing and too much CC. Playing Lili makes me feel more like a true support where all I can do is minor assist my allies while spamming heals. On BW I can not only outheal Lili who is forced to spec almost all her talents into Brew to even stay at ~75% the healing capacity but now I'm free to add Bribe, a shield, rewind and +25% damage on poly to my toolkit. The character is just plain too good at the moment. Probably need to start by simply lowering her passive heal by a bunch. It feels like she's intended to be played more as a buff/debuff style hero with a bit of flavor of healing. But as it stands I can outheal all characters on BW without even speccing or trying into it. BW's map control and healing is gimped severely when your opponents play a hard engage/eraser style comp. If you have to take cleanse against tyrael/kerrigan your only burst heal is two blink heals (three in 1 fight if you're lucky) which is far less reliable burst healing than Malf, Lili, and Rehgar. God forbid you're forced to take cleanse and emerald - then BW is literally the worst healer in teamfights. Ignore the healing tab for brightwing because it's so padded up during laning phase by her passive and pointless when analyzing an actual teamfight. Also against hard engage you don't have the luxury to split push on a side lane because the other team will hard engage before you have time to tp. BW is good but there are ways to punish her as a pick. You can easily take Emerald Wind and out-perform Malfurion and Lili healing-wise, what are you talking about? The main problem with Brightwing is not that her passive is too good, but that her talents over-all are far more stronger when put together correctly, compared to pretty much every other support. The only reason Malfurion and Uther is up there, is because of their CC (and i'm seeing Malfurions go for Twilight Dream more often than Tranquility, so it's definitely NOT the healing). Like my fucking problem with BW is that i get bribe, envenom/shield, a passive-enhancer, a heal or an AoE-knockback along with fucking rewind and the ability to make my polymorph even stronger (25% damage increase is a lot level 16). On top of that i take storm-shield level 20 almost exclusively, because I'm a greedy bitch who likes to win. Now the main issue here, is two simple things; i have more buttons than any other standard support and my kit overall is stronger than any other standard support. If Li Li had CC, if Malfurion had bribe, you know those small fucking things that makes you wonder how the fuck this game is even balanced to begin with. If they could come up with some sort of absolute standard (i.e all supports get bribe, all supports contribute with CC or healing) then i'd be fine, but when you can easily see that the raw numbers (and buttons) clearly outperform others. I'd really love it if Blizzard went ahead and redesigned their talent trees, because it is an outright joke, an utter shitty amateur performance. It's like a lottery where some heroes in some roles become viable, while others are clearly lacking the tools that their corresponding heroes in said role have. I barely watch EU so I don't know about that but I've only seen malfs run silence in scrims two times in NA (and they failed horribly). Tranq is taken 99% of the time otherwise. Malf tranq is insanely popular in the past two weeks and BW fell off pick order in NA altho just the other day I saw EU FP a brightwing. I also have no idea how you can argue BW can heal more as a malf tranq if they take emerald. That's literally impossible, Either the malf isnt doing anything, or he had no need to heal anyway cause his team was pubstomping or something. Idk about you man, but i just stand right next to my team-members the entire fucking game and i see myself outperforming everyone healing-wise except maybe a full-Q Li Li build. You're missing the point. The context is during a team fight. not while you pad stats with her passive heal. Although, to be fair, the passive heal outside teamfights is hard to quantify. It's not exactly padding since it means less downtime between fights or while laning/mercing or whatever. So it's not actually overhealing (and hence useless). But Brightwing is (correct me if I'm wrong) the weakest burst healer in the game, so I doubt her passive is going to get touched. It's more her utility, she just has too much. Gust of healing gives her burst heals during a team-fight and though it stops passively during your cooldown, it's still more than enough to heal people. I get that it's not as strong as a full-duration Li Li or malfurion ult, but it's still something (and apparently enough to start discussing it). edit: and having no math to go by, means that this semi-pointless discussion could keep on going for ages. My bad... edit2: here's the math. From a level 10 point of view, Brightwing passively gives out 126 healing (36+(9*10)) per second, totaling in a possible 630 healing per second every 4 second. But with Gust of Healing, she gives out 126 healing every second for 4 seconds, meaning the least you go for a single-target "quick burst" is 504 or if you hit all five 2520. And that's in four seconds. Let's compare that to Malfurion: Tranquility gives out 20 health each second to an ally. After 4 seconds, you've given out 80 healing to one target and 400 if you hit all five. After 10 seconds (full duration) you have only done 1000 healing. It isn't as strong as you make it out to be. Um, at level 10 Malfurion does 110 hps (20 + 9*10). His ult scales the same as Brightwing's heal. Gust is a lot of healing though, the few times I played Brightwing I took Regenerating Winds, so I forgot about that. But I'm still not convinced Brightwing's healing needs to be nerfed rather than her utility. But I'm not Blizzard so it doesn't really matter what I think. Edit: For instance compare Gust / Tranq to healing ward. At level 10 assuming you have 2500 hp, then it works out to 75 hps on an easily killed totem. That's not terrible either, albeit on an easily killed totem, but healing is just what healers do. Oh, my bad, i miss-interpreted the number as being the base for level 10 and didn't take the previous levels' scaling into account. It makes more sense now (no math genius I'm afraid) So that means Malfurion heals for 2200 after 4 seconds but Brightwing can heal for 2505 in 4 seconds. In prolonged fights he should be winning I guess that's why it feels like the meta is slowly shifting over to double support, to compensate for that individualism that lies in Brightwing (and to some extent Uther). I do that all the time too. My brain keeps thinking the base numbers for heroics at lvl 1 make no sense. Anyways to shift gears a bit. Bliss just published a blog on Hero League today: http://us.battle.net/heroes/en/blog/17906506So each rank is actually 2% of the player population which makes a lot more sense (the previous interview how the guy kept saying 2.5% this, 2.5% that). Also a preview on Team League. I don't expect to play it to much but the first come first pick system sounds awful, plus no mention of bans in Team draft. I would have thought that would be a no-brainer but I guess not.
It's basically an alternative of the swapping system. If I'm first pick (in the current system), but I don't want to play a highly contested hero then it is a lot better to let my teammate pick say Stitches than for me pick something that I'll be able to play anyway. It has the additional advantage that I don't need to own the hero my teammate wants to play (and vice versa) so that we can then swap.
If people are assholes then it is terrible, but if you have assholes on your team your chances of winning weren't high to begin with.
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On February 10 2015 09:17 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2015 08:30 Wuster wrote:On February 10 2015 05:46 Sponkz wrote:On February 10 2015 04:56 Wuster wrote:On February 10 2015 04:26 Sponkz wrote:On February 10 2015 04:15 Wuster wrote:On February 10 2015 03:45 Sponkz wrote:On February 10 2015 03:25 Hryul wrote:On February 10 2015 03:10 Sponkz wrote:
You can easily take Emerald Wind and out-perform Malfurion and Lili healing-wise, what are you talking about?
as others have pointed out: the raw numbers from the healing tab don't mean anything. the healing that matters is the one from team fight and especially that on the focused target. BW doesn't shine there with her passive, but gives a bit relieve with the shield. the numbers of her healing are inflated because she heals all the time. She definitely shines with her passive, how can you say she doesn´t? After level 7, you either get the gust of healing or regenerative mist, which makes your passive go from semi-decent to nearly OP. Although i can semi-agree that the stats-tab is kinda useless in real games (aka competent 5v5 no MMR-flux or anything), but one thing is that Soothing Mist is AoE, more-so that you play Brightwing for positioning meaning that you wanna pile up (or be the one who makes it looks like you're piled up). This is also why someone mentioned earlier that hard-engage outright destroys her, because it's so easy to get off a nasty AoE wombo-combo on a Brightwing, since her healing slowly catches up over time. I personally cannot decide if blink heal is worth it or not, i guess we will see when they gut her passive to the ground. I don't think working on her other abilities' scaling would help, maybe nerfing Critterize and Gust of Healing would be a great start. On February 10 2015 03:28 KawaiiRice wrote:On February 10 2015 03:10 Sponkz wrote:On February 10 2015 02:57 KawaiiRice wrote:
[quote]
BW's map control and healing is gimped severely when your opponents play a hard engage/eraser style comp. If you have to take cleanse against tyrael/kerrigan your only burst heal is two blink heals (three in 1 fight if you're lucky) which is far less reliable burst healing than Malf, Lili, and Rehgar. God forbid you're forced to take cleanse and emerald - then BW is literally the worst healer in teamfights. Ignore the healing tab for brightwing because it's so padded up during laning phase by her passive and pointless when analyzing an actual teamfight. Also against hard engage you don't have the luxury to split push on a side lane because the other team will hard engage before you have time to tp. BW is good but there are ways to punish her as a pick. You can easily take Emerald Wind and out-perform Malfurion and Lili healing-wise, what are you talking about? The main problem with Brightwing is not that her passive is too good, but that her talents over-all are far more stronger when put together correctly, compared to pretty much every other support. The only reason Malfurion and Uther is up there, is because of their CC (and i'm seeing Malfurions go for Twilight Dream more often than Tranquility, so it's definitely NOT the healing). Like my fucking problem with BW is that i get bribe, envenom/shield, a passive-enhancer, a heal or an AoE-knockback along with fucking rewind and the ability to make my polymorph even stronger (25% damage increase is a lot level 16). On top of that i take storm-shield level 20 almost exclusively, because I'm a greedy bitch who likes to win. Now the main issue here, is two simple things; i have more buttons than any other standard support and my kit overall is stronger than any other standard support. If Li Li had CC, if Malfurion had bribe, you know those small fucking things that makes you wonder how the fuck this game is even balanced to begin with. If they could come up with some sort of absolute standard (i.e all supports get bribe, all supports contribute with CC or healing) then i'd be fine, but when you can easily see that the raw numbers (and buttons) clearly outperform others. I'd really love it if Blizzard went ahead and redesigned their talent trees, because it is an outright joke, an utter shitty amateur performance. It's like a lottery where some heroes in some roles become viable, while others are clearly lacking the tools that their corresponding heroes in said role have. I barely watch EU so I don't know about that but I've only seen malfs run silence in scrims two times in NA (and they failed horribly). Tranq is taken 99% of the time otherwise. Malf tranq is insanely popular in the past two weeks and BW fell off pick order in NA altho just the other day I saw EU FP a brightwing. I also have no idea how you can argue BW can heal more as a malf tranq if they take emerald. That's literally impossible, Either the malf isnt doing anything, or he had no need to heal anyway cause his team was pubstomping or something. Idk about you man, but i just stand right next to my team-members the entire fucking game and i see myself outperforming everyone healing-wise except maybe a full-Q Li Li build. You're missing the point. The context is during a team fight. not while you pad stats with her passive heal. Although, to be fair, the passive heal outside teamfights is hard to quantify. It's not exactly padding since it means less downtime between fights or while laning/mercing or whatever. So it's not actually overhealing (and hence useless). But Brightwing is (correct me if I'm wrong) the weakest burst healer in the game, so I doubt her passive is going to get touched. It's more her utility, she just has too much. Gust of healing gives her burst heals during a team-fight and though it stops passively during your cooldown, it's still more than enough to heal people. I get that it's not as strong as a full-duration Li Li or malfurion ult, but it's still something (and apparently enough to start discussing it). edit: and having no math to go by, means that this semi-pointless discussion could keep on going for ages. My bad... edit2: here's the math. From a level 10 point of view, Brightwing passively gives out 126 healing (36+(9*10)) per second, totaling in a possible 630 healing per second every 4 second. But with Gust of Healing, she gives out 126 healing every second for 4 seconds, meaning the least you go for a single-target "quick burst" is 504 or if you hit all five 2520. And that's in four seconds. Let's compare that to Malfurion: Tranquility gives out 20 health each second to an ally. After 4 seconds, you've given out 80 healing to one target and 400 if you hit all five. After 10 seconds (full duration) you have only done 1000 healing. It isn't as strong as you make it out to be. Um, at level 10 Malfurion does 110 hps (20 + 9*10). His ult scales the same as Brightwing's heal. Gust is a lot of healing though, the few times I played Brightwing I took Regenerating Winds, so I forgot about that. But I'm still not convinced Brightwing's healing needs to be nerfed rather than her utility. But I'm not Blizzard so it doesn't really matter what I think. Edit: For instance compare Gust / Tranq to healing ward. At level 10 assuming you have 2500 hp, then it works out to 75 hps on an easily killed totem. That's not terrible either, albeit on an easily killed totem, but healing is just what healers do. Oh, my bad, i miss-interpreted the number as being the base for level 10 and didn't take the previous levels' scaling into account. It makes more sense now (no math genius I'm afraid) So that means Malfurion heals for 2200 after 4 seconds but Brightwing can heal for 2505 in 4 seconds. In prolonged fights he should be winning I guess that's why it feels like the meta is slowly shifting over to double support, to compensate for that individualism that lies in Brightwing (and to some extent Uther). I do that all the time too. My brain keeps thinking the base numbers for heroics at lvl 1 make no sense. Anyways to shift gears a bit. Bliss just published a blog on Hero League today: http://us.battle.net/heroes/en/blog/17906506So each rank is actually 2% of the player population which makes a lot more sense (the previous interview how the guy kept saying 2.5% this, 2.5% that). Also a preview on Team League. I don't expect to play it to much but the first come first pick system sounds awful, plus no mention of bans in Team draft. I would have thought that would be a no-brainer but I guess not. It's basically an alternative of the swapping system. If I'm first pick (in the current system), but I don't want to play a highly contested hero then it is a lot better to let my teammate pick say Stitches than for me pick something that I'll be able to play anyway. It has the additional advantage that I don't need to own the hero my teammate wants to play (and vice versa) so that we can then swap. If people are assholes then it is terrible, but if you have assholes on your team your chances of winning weren't high to begin with.
Good point since it's team league you shouldn't be fighting over 1st pick or what not. In which case it makes sense to allow pseudo hero-swapping while enforcing that you still only play heroes you own.
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A few pages ago you linked a couple power rankings, and both o them had Rehghar pretty low (lowest I think, actually), and some of you even tried to explain why he's terrible, but I've just seen him being picked twice in a row on Grubby's stream and on 2 different maps. Was that some miraculously rare even I just witnessed (like seeing 2 Poppys in a row in some master+ level LoL games), or...?
Also, is bloodlust never worth it on him over ancestral healing?
edit: oh, and how good is Li Li? I'M thinking about buying her as my first hero. She's just so damn cute and I like supporting. Also, cheap.
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On February 10 2015 10:15 Volband wrote:
A few pages ago you linked a couple power rankings, and both o them had Rehghar pretty low (lowest I think, actually), and some of you even tried to explain why he's terrible, but I've just seen him being picked twice in a row on Grubby's stream and on 2 different maps. Was that some miraculously rare even I just witnessed (like seeing 2 Poppys in a row in some master+ level LoL games), or...?
Also, is bloodlust never worth it on him over ancestral healing?
I think Rehgar is badly undervalued in the NA scene. Some of the Euro teams really like him, like WANP.
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On February 10 2015 10:15 Volband wrote:
A few pages ago you linked a couple power rankings, and both o them had Rehghar pretty low (lowest I think, actually), and some of you even tried to explain why he's terrible, but I've just seen him being picked twice in a row on Grubby's stream and on 2 different maps. Was that some miraculously rare even I just witnessed (like seeing 2 Poppys in a row in some master+ level LoL games), or...?
Also, is bloodlust never worth it on him over ancestral healing?
edit: oh, and how good is Li Li? I'M thinking about buying her as my first hero. She's just so damn cute and I like supporting. Also, cheap.
Again, tier lists are only informative in professional matches. Grubby's streaming ranked so you'll find all sorts of picks there.
Bloodlust requires a lot of team coordination and a decent composition, ancestral healing is probably better/easier to use to decide teamfights.
LiLi is fine, almost every hero is fine. Try her out in tryout mode or when its in free rotation if you wanna see if like her.
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Any clue if they are going to add the ability to talk to the other team? 5v5 mobas are the most fun when you get to talk trash (as long as it doesnt take it too far ofc). Without all chat, the only people I can flame are my team mates =(
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Mexico2170 Posts
I don't think they'll implement it. You can be a little sarcastic though if you press "Y" and send the enemy team some phrases at the right moment, i alway laugh or cheer for example when an enemy missed their skillshot but i think thats as far as it'll go.
I got a question on hero league and ranked, if you skill s to be in gold, but you play with a bunch of silvers as team mates, chances are you'll get matched vs silvers, and as we all know, one person can't really carry the game, so theres a posibility that even if you are gold, you are stuck on silver because you depend on your team? I guess my question is, how could they accurately determine the true MMR/skill of a single player, if he only is rensposable for 1/5 of his wins and loses?
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EPT
