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On February 09 2015 02:26 deth2munkies wrote:
I'm beginning to learn that if your hero league queue takes longer than 5 1/2 minutes, you should probably just play something else for a while.
I tried and learned the hard way that grouping for hero league without voice chat is a bad idea too =p.
Also, if you queue and end up with someone on your friendslist you still get the friend bonus even if you aren't partied together.
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37-7 in hero league as Brightwing @3.3k MMR / Rank 1. I'd just like to chime in with a few opinions on Brightwing and healers in general.
Brightwing is strong but she's not OP. The other healers have strengths that differentiate them and make them better picks than Brightwing in situations. Uther is the better option if you need a burst healer and has better team synergy for some combos, Malfurion provides much higher hp/s and also has better synergy for some combos, Rehgar is a better option if you can get better value out of ancestral healing / chain heal (like ancestral healing on an Odin). If you look at competitive play, Brightwing isn't a consistent ban and isn't a 100% pick. People also more frequently deny pick an Uther than Brightwing.
So, there is a lot of talk of the most obvious change -- removing rewind from Brightwing. I think the initial outcry about double polymorph has kind of died down as people have gotten used to it and learned it's not so bad. The reality is Brightwing only has 1 skill that really benefits from rewind -- double Q is not really something you are afraid of and double E is nice but still pretty mediocre. You're basically taking a level 13 talent purely for another polymorph on a 90 second CD that Cleanse, a 30 second CD level 7 ability, basically negates. Relentless, a common pick at 13, also essentially negates rewind despite being a passive with no CD. A lot of Brightwing players, myself included, don't even think it'll change much because sprint @13 is also a fine choice and has different pros.
If you want to nerf Brightwing in a meaningful way, it makes much more sense to nerf 2 other things.
The first is her Z. Brightwing's mobility is what makes her so good. Being able to soak a lane until your team needs help at a tribute or temple is a huge advantage. Being able to die and then be immediately back in the mines after a short early game death timer is great on mines. If you look at her winrates, she benefits a lot from being incredibly strong on some maps where her phase shift really matters. Compared to Falstad's Z, Brightwing's has a 15 second shorter CD, unlimited range (but to an ally), much shorter travel time, and can phase into mines. Sure, Brightwing has no innate MS boost after being out of combat but her ability to E herself helps lessen that weakness.
The second is her general utility. As is, she's good at mercing because she has bribe vs. unimportant talents. She has either envenom for damage or protective shield for an instant heal. She can also get cleanse albeit at the cost of burst healing she can later make up for with blink heal. At 10 she either gets a great disengage / CC skill or she gets a good heal with escape and reposition potential. At 16 she gets even more utility with a 25% team damage increase on her poly target. And, at 20 she gets storm shield, blink, or an ult upgrade that matters (EW upgrade). It's just too much. No other healer has such a well rounded kit. Nerfing critterize, removing bribe, or doing something else to her general utility would be a better nerf.
Personally, I would rather they bring the other healers up to Uther and Brightwing's level.
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I don't know if we really need to be buffing the other supports and giving them BW and Uther-level utility. Double support comps are already pretty damned strong now. Further strengthening the other supports will just push double support into being the dominant meta, which would be counterproductive.
EDIT: And watching Khaldor's stream earlier today, double support may become the dominant meta anyway.
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Good point.
You made me start a brainstorm.
Overall hero balance implies balance between classes.
Of course balance should take other things into account (what is more fun to play?), but if we discuss only balance:
5/33 of all heroes are healers, double healer should be less common than no healer. Balance between healers should focus on nerfs and not buffs. Teams are not fine with no healer even when they have Tass or Tyrande, that says something.
If we look at the other classes:
9/33 of all heroes are tanks, single tank should be the most common followed by double tank, things are good (thanks, resurgence removal).
The remaining 19 are either assassins, dps support and dps specialists. Its just a huge imbalanced mess. But we do see around half of the team played as dps. However we see more double healer comps than triple dps. And that counting Tyrande and Tass as dps (as it should be).
Its not that healing is too powerful because of the gaming mechanics, healers simply heal too much while doing damage and crowd control on top of that. Uther and BW are just too powerful, even Malfurion is.
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So what do you wanna do, make healers useless and make another LoL. That would not be fun.
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BW is completely and utterly OP. Arguing against it is very, very foolish. And this is coming from someone who I consider myself a BW main. She brings too much utility, too much map presence, too much healing and too much CC. Playing Lili makes me feel more like a true support where all I can do is minor assist my allies while spamming heals. On BW I can not only outheal Lili who is forced to spec almost all her talents into Brew to even stay at ~75% the healing capacity but now I'm free to add Bribe, a shield, rewind and +25% damage on poly to my toolkit. The character is just plain too good at the moment. Probably need to start by simply lowering her passive heal by a bunch. It feels like she's intended to be played more as a buff/debuff style hero with a bit of flavor of healing. But as it stands I can outheal all characters on BW without even speccing or trying into it.
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How did u realised that BW is a female? :D
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On February 10 2015 02:31 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
How did u realised that BW is a female? :D
He read the lore like everyone else that isn´t completely retarded <3
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On February 10 2015 01:04 Superbanana wrote:
Its not that healing is too powerful because of the gaming mechanics, healers simply heal too much while doing damage and crowd control on top of that. Uther and BW are just too powerful, even Malfurion is.
I agree with you that healers can do too much damage while not sacrificing their healing. Brightwing's passive is a great example. If I go balls-to-the-wall offensive Brightwing, she'll STILL heal for A SIGNIFICANT amount throughout the game. If you get regenerative rains + rewind and burn through six spells in an engagement, that's three extra passives while you're dishing out damage and utility. Compared to some classes, Brightwing is almost like having an extra man on the field.
I like the idea of having a support class that, if alone, can spec in such a way that they can be a great healer. I also like the idea that, if there is a second healer, I like the idea that both of us can take some more offensive utility at the cost of healing.
But I feel that Brightwing breaks this mold because most of her healing occurs as she's doing other things. And I might be wrong, but that's why I think defensive brightwing is the wrong way to go. She's such a threat when she just passively brings everyone up as she's pushing them back. I spec arcane precision and find the threat of it more useful than bribe, but I don't regularly play with high level players, where the potential team advantage from bribe would be better.
Still, with arcane precision, from a raw numbers standpoint, BW crushes. And one thing I don't think players consider is that BW really never runs out of mana... so constantly nuking stationary buildings feels like it has very little downside, and adds a bit more upside in my eyes to arcane precision.
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On February 10 2015 01:42 Tenks wrote:
BW is completely and utterly OP. Arguing against it is very, very foolish. And this is coming from someone who I consider myself a BW main. She brings too much utility, too much map presence, too much healing and too much CC. Playing Lili makes me feel more like a true support where all I can do is minor assist my allies while spamming heals. On BW I can not only outheal Lili who is forced to spec almost all her talents into Brew to even stay at ~75% the healing capacity but now I'm free to add Bribe, a shield, rewind and +25% damage on poly to my toolkit. The character is just plain too good at the moment. Probably need to start by simply lowering her passive heal by a bunch. It feels like she's intended to be played more as a buff/debuff style hero with a bit of flavor of healing. But as it stands I can outheal all characters on BW without even speccing or trying into it.
BW's map control and healing is gimped severely when your opponents play a hard engage/eraser style comp. If you have to take cleanse against tyrael/kerrigan your only burst heal is two blink heals (three in 1 fight if you're lucky) which is far less reliable burst healing than Malf, Lili, and Rehgar. God forbid you're forced to take cleanse and emerald - then BW is literally the worst healer in teamfights. Ignore the healing tab for brightwing because it's so padded up during laning phase by her passive and pointless when analyzing an actual teamfight. Also against hard engage you don't have the luxury to split push on a side lane because the other team will hard engage before you have time to tp. BW is good but there are ways to punish her as a pick.
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On February 10 2015 02:57 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2015 01:42 Tenks wrote:
BW is completely and utterly OP. Arguing against it is very, very foolish. And this is coming from someone who I consider myself a BW main. She brings too much utility, too much map presence, too much healing and too much CC. Playing Lili makes me feel more like a true support where all I can do is minor assist my allies while spamming heals. On BW I can not only outheal Lili who is forced to spec almost all her talents into Brew to even stay at ~75% the healing capacity but now I'm free to add Bribe, a shield, rewind and +25% damage on poly to my toolkit. The character is just plain too good at the moment. Probably need to start by simply lowering her passive heal by a bunch. It feels like she's intended to be played more as a buff/debuff style hero with a bit of flavor of healing. But as it stands I can outheal all characters on BW without even speccing or trying into it. BW's map control and healing is gimped severely when your opponents play a hard engage/eraser style comp. If you have to take cleanse against tyrael/kerrigan your only burst heal is two blink heals (three in 1 fight if you're lucky) which is far less reliable burst healing than Malf, Lili, and Rehgar. God forbid you're forced to take cleanse and emerald - then BW is literally the worst healer in teamfights. Ignore the healing tab for brightwing because it's so padded up during laning phase by her passive and pointless when analyzing an actual teamfight. Also against hard engage you don't have the luxury to split push on a side lane because the other team will hard engage before you have time to tp. BW is good but there are ways to punish her as a pick.
You can easily take Emerald Wind and out-perform Malfurion and Lili healing-wise, what are you talking about?
The main problem with Brightwing is not that her passive is too good, but that her talents over-all are far more stronger when put together correctly, compared to pretty much every other support. The only reason Malfurion and Uther is up there, is because of their CC (and i'm seeing Malfurions go for Twilight Dream more often than Tranquility, so it's definitely NOT the healing).
Like my fucking problem with BW is that i get bribe, envenom/shield, a passive-enhancer, a heal or an AoE-knockback along with fucking rewind and the ability to make my polymorph even stronger (25% damage increase is a lot level 16). On top of that i take storm-shield level 20 almost exclusively, because I'm a greedy bitch who likes to win.
Now the main issue here, is two simple things; i have more buttons than any other standard support and my kit overall is stronger than any other standard support.
If Li Li had CC, if Malfurion had bribe, you know those small fucking things that makes you wonder how the fuck this game is even balanced to begin with. If they could come up with some sort of absolute standard (i.e all supports get bribe, all supports contribute with CC or healing) then i'd be fine, but when you can easily see that the raw numbers (and buttons) clearly outperform others. /facepalm
I'd really love it if Blizzard went ahead and redesigned their talent trees, because it is an outright joke, an utter shitty amateur performance. It's like a lottery where some heroes in some roles become viable, while others are clearly lacking the tools that their corresponding heroes in said role have.
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On February 10 2015 03:10 Sponkz wrote:
You can easily take Emerald Wind and out-perform Malfurion and Lili healing-wise, what are you talking about?
as others have pointed out: the raw numbers from the healing tab don't mean anything. the healing that matters is the one from team fight and especially that on the focused target. BW doesn't shine there with her passive, but gives a bit relieve with the shield.
the numbers of her healing are inflated because she heals all the time.
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On February 10 2015 03:10 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2015 02:57 KawaiiRice wrote:On February 10 2015 01:42 Tenks wrote:
BW is completely and utterly OP. Arguing against it is very, very foolish. And this is coming from someone who I consider myself a BW main. She brings too much utility, too much map presence, too much healing and too much CC. Playing Lili makes me feel more like a true support where all I can do is minor assist my allies while spamming heals. On BW I can not only outheal Lili who is forced to spec almost all her talents into Brew to even stay at ~75% the healing capacity but now I'm free to add Bribe, a shield, rewind and +25% damage on poly to my toolkit. The character is just plain too good at the moment. Probably need to start by simply lowering her passive heal by a bunch. It feels like she's intended to be played more as a buff/debuff style hero with a bit of flavor of healing. But as it stands I can outheal all characters on BW without even speccing or trying into it. BW's map control and healing is gimped severely when your opponents play a hard engage/eraser style comp. If you have to take cleanse against tyrael/kerrigan your only burst heal is two blink heals (three in 1 fight if you're lucky) which is far less reliable burst healing than Malf, Lili, and Rehgar. God forbid you're forced to take cleanse and emerald - then BW is literally the worst healer in teamfights. Ignore the healing tab for brightwing because it's so padded up during laning phase by her passive and pointless when analyzing an actual teamfight. Also against hard engage you don't have the luxury to split push on a side lane because the other team will hard engage before you have time to tp. BW is good but there are ways to punish her as a pick. You can easily take Emerald Wind and out-perform Malfurion and Lili healing-wise, what are you talking about? The main problem with Brightwing is not that her passive is too good, but that her talents over-all are far more stronger when put together correctly, compared to pretty much every other support. The only reason Malfurion and Uther is up there, is because of their CC (and i'm seeing Malfurions go for Twilight Dream more often than Tranquility, so it's definitely NOT the healing). Like my fucking problem with BW is that i get bribe, envenom/shield, a passive-enhancer, a heal or an AoE-knockback along with fucking rewind and the ability to make my polymorph even stronger (25% damage increase is a lot level 16). On top of that i take storm-shield level 20 almost exclusively, because I'm a greedy bitch who likes to win. Now the main issue here, is two simple things; i have more buttons than any other standard support and my kit overall is stronger than any other standard support. If Li Li had CC, if Malfurion had bribe, you know those small fucking things that makes you wonder how the fuck this game is even balanced to begin with. If they could come up with some sort of absolute standard (i.e all supports get bribe, all supports contribute with CC or healing) then i'd be fine, but when you can easily see that the raw numbers (and buttons) clearly outperform others. I'd really love it if Blizzard went ahead and redesigned their talent trees, because it is an outright joke, an utter shitty amateur performance. It's like a lottery where some heroes in some roles become viable, while others are clearly lacking the tools that their corresponding heroes in said role have.
I barely watch EU so I don't know about that but I've only seen malfs run silence in scrims two times in NA (and they failed horribly). Tranq is taken 99% of the time otherwise. Malf tranq is insanely popular in the past two weeks and BW fell off pick order in NA altho just the other day I saw EU FP a brightwing.
I also have no idea how you can argue BW can heal more as a malf tranq if they take emerald. That's literally impossible, Either the malf isnt doing anything, or he had no need to heal anyway cause his team was pubstomping or something.
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On February 10 2015 03:25 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2015 03:10 Sponkz wrote:
You can easily take Emerald Wind and out-perform Malfurion and Lili healing-wise, what are you talking about?
as others have pointed out: the raw numbers from the healing tab don't mean anything. the healing that matters is the one from team fight and especially that on the focused target. BW doesn't shine there with her passive, but gives a bit relieve with the shield. the numbers of her healing are inflated because she heals all the time.
The problem is simply that she has the best disengage ability in the game to counter hard engage comps, and constant, AoE healing to deal with poke comps running stuff like W build Valla. Not to mention Poly + Rewind can effectively take out their 2 highest damage dealers in a way no other support can. She's by far the best support in the game, bar none, in any reasonable team comp. You can build your team to beat Brightwing, but it requires you to do suboptimal things, like build on-hit Valla + Raynor to be able to burst any target in the game down through BW (plus stuns or hooks).
Honestly, she needs to lose Rewind and maybe 2 extra seconds between passive ticks.
EDIT: @above Malf tranq is a channeled ability. If BW takes and uses Gusts of Healing effectively and has a team that can interrupt Tranq, she can definitely outheal Malf by a lot. Especially if he doesn't take Life Seed. I'm not sure about competitive, but given how ubiquitous Stitches is with the Slam range and Slam ministun talents, it becomes infeasible that Malf will ever get a full Tranq off.
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On February 10 2015 03:25 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2015 03:10 Sponkz wrote:
You can easily take Emerald Wind and out-perform Malfurion and Lili healing-wise, what are you talking about?
as others have pointed out: the raw numbers from the healing tab don't mean anything. the healing that matters is the one from team fight and especially that on the focused target. BW doesn't shine there with her passive, but gives a bit relieve with the shield. the numbers of her healing are inflated because she heals all the time.
She definitely shines with her passive, how can you say she doesn´t? After level 7, you either get the gust of healing or regenerative mist, which makes your passive go from semi-decent to nearly OP.
Although i can semi-agree that the stats-tab is kinda useless in real games (aka competent 5v5 no MMR-flux or anything), but one thing is that Soothing Mist is AoE, more-so that you play Brightwing for positioning meaning that you wanna pile up (or be the one who makes it looks like you're piled up).
This is also why someone mentioned earlier that hard-engage outright destroys her, because it's so easy to get off a nasty AoE wombo-combo on a Brightwing, since her healing slowly catches up over time.
I personally cannot decide if blink heal is worth it or not, i guess we will see when they gut her passive to the ground. I don't think working on her other abilities' scaling would help, maybe nerfing Critterize and Gust of Healing would be a great start.
On February 10 2015 03:28 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2015 03:10 Sponkz wrote:On February 10 2015 02:57 KawaiiRice wrote:On February 10 2015 01:42 Tenks wrote:
BW is completely and utterly OP. Arguing against it is very, very foolish. And this is coming from someone who I consider myself a BW main. She brings too much utility, too much map presence, too much healing and too much CC. Playing Lili makes me feel more like a true support where all I can do is minor assist my allies while spamming heals. On BW I can not only outheal Lili who is forced to spec almost all her talents into Brew to even stay at ~75% the healing capacity but now I'm free to add Bribe, a shield, rewind and +25% damage on poly to my toolkit. The character is just plain too good at the moment. Probably need to start by simply lowering her passive heal by a bunch. It feels like she's intended to be played more as a buff/debuff style hero with a bit of flavor of healing. But as it stands I can outheal all characters on BW without even speccing or trying into it. BW's map control and healing is gimped severely when your opponents play a hard engage/eraser style comp. If you have to take cleanse against tyrael/kerrigan your only burst heal is two blink heals (three in 1 fight if you're lucky) which is far less reliable burst healing than Malf, Lili, and Rehgar. God forbid you're forced to take cleanse and emerald - then BW is literally the worst healer in teamfights. Ignore the healing tab for brightwing because it's so padded up during laning phase by her passive and pointless when analyzing an actual teamfight. Also against hard engage you don't have the luxury to split push on a side lane because the other team will hard engage before you have time to tp. BW is good but there are ways to punish her as a pick. You can easily take Emerald Wind and out-perform Malfurion and Lili healing-wise, what are you talking about? The main problem with Brightwing is not that her passive is too good, but that her talents over-all are far more stronger when put together correctly, compared to pretty much every other support. The only reason Malfurion and Uther is up there, is because of their CC (and i'm seeing Malfurions go for Twilight Dream more often than Tranquility, so it's definitely NOT the healing). Like my fucking problem with BW is that i get bribe, envenom/shield, a passive-enhancer, a heal or an AoE-knockback along with fucking rewind and the ability to make my polymorph even stronger (25% damage increase is a lot level 16). On top of that i take storm-shield level 20 almost exclusively, because I'm a greedy bitch who likes to win. Now the main issue here, is two simple things; i have more buttons than any other standard support and my kit overall is stronger than any other standard support. If Li Li had CC, if Malfurion had bribe, you know those small fucking things that makes you wonder how the fuck this game is even balanced to begin with. If they could come up with some sort of absolute standard (i.e all supports get bribe, all supports contribute with CC or healing) then i'd be fine, but when you can easily see that the raw numbers (and buttons) clearly outperform others. I'd really love it if Blizzard went ahead and redesigned their talent trees, because it is an outright joke, an utter shitty amateur performance. It's like a lottery where some heroes in some roles become viable, while others are clearly lacking the tools that their corresponding heroes in said role have. I barely watch EU so I don't know about that but I've only seen malfs run silence in scrims two times in NA (and they failed horribly). Tranq is taken 99% of the time otherwise. Malf tranq is insanely popular in the past two weeks and BW fell off pick order in NA altho just the other day I saw EU FP a brightwing. I also have no idea how you can argue BW can heal more as a malf tranq if they take emerald. That's literally impossible, Either the malf isnt doing anything, or he had no need to heal anyway cause his team was pubstomping or something.
Idk about you man, but i just stand right next to my team-members the entire fucking game and i see myself outperforming everyone healing-wise except maybe a full-Q Li Li build.
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On February 10 2015 03:34 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2015 03:25 Hryul wrote:On February 10 2015 03:10 Sponkz wrote:
You can easily take Emerald Wind and out-perform Malfurion and Lili healing-wise, what are you talking about?
as others have pointed out: the raw numbers from the healing tab don't mean anything. the healing that matters is the one from team fight and especially that on the focused target. BW doesn't shine there with her passive, but gives a bit relieve with the shield. the numbers of her healing are inflated because she heals all the time. The problem is simply that she has the best disengage ability in the game to counter hard engage comps, and constant, AoE healing to deal with poke comps running stuff like W build Valla. Not to mention Poly + Rewind can effectively take out their 2 highest damage dealers in a way no other support can. She's by far the best support in the game, bar none, in any reasonable team comp. You can build your team to beat Brightwing, but it requires you to do suboptimal things, like build on-hit Valla + Raynor to be able to burst any target in the game down through BW (plus stuns or hooks). Honestly, she needs to lose Rewind and maybe 2 extra seconds between passive ticks. EDIT: @above Malf tranq is a channeled ability. If BW takes and uses Gusts of Healing effectively and has a team that can interrupt Tranq, she can definitely outheal Malf by a lot. Especially if he doesn't take Life Seed. I'm not sure about competitive, but given how ubiquitous Stitches is with the Slam range and Slam ministun talents, it becomes infeasible that Malf will ever get a full Tranq off.
Malf tranq is not interruptable, and since last patch runs while in ice block. Running a full tranq is completely viable, what are you talking about...
edit:
I personally cannot decide if blink heal is worth it or not, i guess we will see when they gut her passive to the ground. I don't think working on her other abilities' scaling would help, maybe nerfing Critterize and Gust of Healing would be a great start.
Emerald has fallen out of favor in competitive and one of the few scenarios you take it now is to peel for a nazeebo to let him get full channel off. Otherwise you can never really go wrong going blink heal. Taking emerald with a comp that's trying to hard engage makes BW really awkward to play. Taking emerald in a constantly kiting comp can make you a target since BW moves slower than everyone else without E on herself. Taking emerald in double healer comps is pretty awkward too because you can't support your frontline and you're probably looking for drawn out extended teamfights so one disengage ult in a 40+ second fight is less valuable than blink heals. This is different though if you have a nazeebo (idk how I feel about nazeebo in double healer comps though).
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On February 10 2015 03:45 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2015 03:25 Hryul wrote:On February 10 2015 03:10 Sponkz wrote:
You can easily take Emerald Wind and out-perform Malfurion and Lili healing-wise, what are you talking about?
as others have pointed out: the raw numbers from the healing tab don't mean anything. the healing that matters is the one from team fight and especially that on the focused target. BW doesn't shine there with her passive, but gives a bit relieve with the shield. the numbers of her healing are inflated because she heals all the time. She definitely shines with her passive, how can you say she doesn´t? After level 7, you either get the gust of healing or regenerative mist, which makes your passive go from semi-decent to nearly OP. Although i can semi-agree that the stats-tab is kinda useless in real games (aka competent 5v5 no MMR-flux or anything), but one thing is that Soothing Mist is AoE, more-so that you play Brightwing for positioning meaning that you wanna pile up (or be the one who makes it looks like you're piled up). This is also why someone mentioned earlier that hard-engage outright destroys her, because it's so easy to get off a nasty AoE wombo-combo on a Brightwing, since her healing slowly catches up over time. I personally cannot decide if blink heal is worth it or not, i guess we will see when they gut her passive to the ground. I don't think working on her other abilities' scaling would help, maybe nerfing Critterize and Gust of Healing would be a great start. Show nested quote +On February 10 2015 03:28 KawaiiRice wrote:On February 10 2015 03:10 Sponkz wrote:On February 10 2015 02:57 KawaiiRice wrote:On February 10 2015 01:42 Tenks wrote:
BW is completely and utterly OP. Arguing against it is very, very foolish. And this is coming from someone who I consider myself a BW main. She brings too much utility, too much map presence, too much healing and too much CC. Playing Lili makes me feel more like a true support where all I can do is minor assist my allies while spamming heals. On BW I can not only outheal Lili who is forced to spec almost all her talents into Brew to even stay at ~75% the healing capacity but now I'm free to add Bribe, a shield, rewind and +25% damage on poly to my toolkit. The character is just plain too good at the moment. Probably need to start by simply lowering her passive heal by a bunch. It feels like she's intended to be played more as a buff/debuff style hero with a bit of flavor of healing. But as it stands I can outheal all characters on BW without even speccing or trying into it. BW's map control and healing is gimped severely when your opponents play a hard engage/eraser style comp. If you have to take cleanse against tyrael/kerrigan your only burst heal is two blink heals (three in 1 fight if you're lucky) which is far less reliable burst healing than Malf, Lili, and Rehgar. God forbid you're forced to take cleanse and emerald - then BW is literally the worst healer in teamfights. Ignore the healing tab for brightwing because it's so padded up during laning phase by her passive and pointless when analyzing an actual teamfight. Also against hard engage you don't have the luxury to split push on a side lane because the other team will hard engage before you have time to tp. BW is good but there are ways to punish her as a pick. You can easily take Emerald Wind and out-perform Malfurion and Lili healing-wise, what are you talking about? The main problem with Brightwing is not that her passive is too good, but that her talents over-all are far more stronger when put together correctly, compared to pretty much every other support. The only reason Malfurion and Uther is up there, is because of their CC (and i'm seeing Malfurions go for Twilight Dream more often than Tranquility, so it's definitely NOT the healing). Like my fucking problem with BW is that i get bribe, envenom/shield, a passive-enhancer, a heal or an AoE-knockback along with fucking rewind and the ability to make my polymorph even stronger (25% damage increase is a lot level 16). On top of that i take storm-shield level 20 almost exclusively, because I'm a greedy bitch who likes to win. Now the main issue here, is two simple things; i have more buttons than any other standard support and my kit overall is stronger than any other standard support. If Li Li had CC, if Malfurion had bribe, you know those small fucking things that makes you wonder how the fuck this game is even balanced to begin with. If they could come up with some sort of absolute standard (i.e all supports get bribe, all supports contribute with CC or healing) then i'd be fine, but when you can easily see that the raw numbers (and buttons) clearly outperform others. I'd really love it if Blizzard went ahead and redesigned their talent trees, because it is an outright joke, an utter shitty amateur performance. It's like a lottery where some heroes in some roles become viable, while others are clearly lacking the tools that their corresponding heroes in said role have. I barely watch EU so I don't know about that but I've only seen malfs run silence in scrims two times in NA (and they failed horribly). Tranq is taken 99% of the time otherwise. Malf tranq is insanely popular in the past two weeks and BW fell off pick order in NA altho just the other day I saw EU FP a brightwing. I also have no idea how you can argue BW can heal more as a malf tranq if they take emerald. That's literally impossible, Either the malf isnt doing anything, or he had no need to heal anyway cause his team was pubstomping or something. Idk about you man, but i just stand right next to my team-members the entire fucking game and i see myself outperforming everyone healing-wise except maybe a full-Q Li Li build.
You're missing the point. The context is during a team fight. not while you pad stats with her passive heal. Although, to be fair, the passive heal outside teamfights is hard to quantify. It's not exactly padding since it means less downtime between fights or while laning/mercing or whatever. So it's not actually overhealing (and hence useless).
But Brightwing is (correct me if I'm wrong) the weakest burst healer in the game, so I doubt her passive is going to get touched. It's more her utility, she just has too much.
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On February 10 2015 04:15 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2015 03:45 Sponkz wrote:On February 10 2015 03:25 Hryul wrote:On February 10 2015 03:10 Sponkz wrote:
You can easily take Emerald Wind and out-perform Malfurion and Lili healing-wise, what are you talking about?
as others have pointed out: the raw numbers from the healing tab don't mean anything. the healing that matters is the one from team fight and especially that on the focused target. BW doesn't shine there with her passive, but gives a bit relieve with the shield. the numbers of her healing are inflated because she heals all the time. She definitely shines with her passive, how can you say she doesn´t? After level 7, you either get the gust of healing or regenerative mist, which makes your passive go from semi-decent to nearly OP. Although i can semi-agree that the stats-tab is kinda useless in real games (aka competent 5v5 no MMR-flux or anything), but one thing is that Soothing Mist is AoE, more-so that you play Brightwing for positioning meaning that you wanna pile up (or be the one who makes it looks like you're piled up). This is also why someone mentioned earlier that hard-engage outright destroys her, because it's so easy to get off a nasty AoE wombo-combo on a Brightwing, since her healing slowly catches up over time. I personally cannot decide if blink heal is worth it or not, i guess we will see when they gut her passive to the ground. I don't think working on her other abilities' scaling would help, maybe nerfing Critterize and Gust of Healing would be a great start. On February 10 2015 03:28 KawaiiRice wrote:On February 10 2015 03:10 Sponkz wrote:On February 10 2015 02:57 KawaiiRice wrote:On February 10 2015 01:42 Tenks wrote:
BW is completely and utterly OP. Arguing against it is very, very foolish. And this is coming from someone who I consider myself a BW main. She brings too much utility, too much map presence, too much healing and too much CC. Playing Lili makes me feel more like a true support where all I can do is minor assist my allies while spamming heals. On BW I can not only outheal Lili who is forced to spec almost all her talents into Brew to even stay at ~75% the healing capacity but now I'm free to add Bribe, a shield, rewind and +25% damage on poly to my toolkit. The character is just plain too good at the moment. Probably need to start by simply lowering her passive heal by a bunch. It feels like she's intended to be played more as a buff/debuff style hero with a bit of flavor of healing. But as it stands I can outheal all characters on BW without even speccing or trying into it. BW's map control and healing is gimped severely when your opponents play a hard engage/eraser style comp. If you have to take cleanse against tyrael/kerrigan your only burst heal is two blink heals (three in 1 fight if you're lucky) which is far less reliable burst healing than Malf, Lili, and Rehgar. God forbid you're forced to take cleanse and emerald - then BW is literally the worst healer in teamfights. Ignore the healing tab for brightwing because it's so padded up during laning phase by her passive and pointless when analyzing an actual teamfight. Also against hard engage you don't have the luxury to split push on a side lane because the other team will hard engage before you have time to tp. BW is good but there are ways to punish her as a pick. You can easily take Emerald Wind and out-perform Malfurion and Lili healing-wise, what are you talking about? The main problem with Brightwing is not that her passive is too good, but that her talents over-all are far more stronger when put together correctly, compared to pretty much every other support. The only reason Malfurion and Uther is up there, is because of their CC (and i'm seeing Malfurions go for Twilight Dream more often than Tranquility, so it's definitely NOT the healing). Like my fucking problem with BW is that i get bribe, envenom/shield, a passive-enhancer, a heal or an AoE-knockback along with fucking rewind and the ability to make my polymorph even stronger (25% damage increase is a lot level 16). On top of that i take storm-shield level 20 almost exclusively, because I'm a greedy bitch who likes to win. Now the main issue here, is two simple things; i have more buttons than any other standard support and my kit overall is stronger than any other standard support. If Li Li had CC, if Malfurion had bribe, you know those small fucking things that makes you wonder how the fuck this game is even balanced to begin with. If they could come up with some sort of absolute standard (i.e all supports get bribe, all supports contribute with CC or healing) then i'd be fine, but when you can easily see that the raw numbers (and buttons) clearly outperform others. I'd really love it if Blizzard went ahead and redesigned their talent trees, because it is an outright joke, an utter shitty amateur performance. It's like a lottery where some heroes in some roles become viable, while others are clearly lacking the tools that their corresponding heroes in said role have. I barely watch EU so I don't know about that but I've only seen malfs run silence in scrims two times in NA (and they failed horribly). Tranq is taken 99% of the time otherwise. Malf tranq is insanely popular in the past two weeks and BW fell off pick order in NA altho just the other day I saw EU FP a brightwing. I also have no idea how you can argue BW can heal more as a malf tranq if they take emerald. That's literally impossible, Either the malf isnt doing anything, or he had no need to heal anyway cause his team was pubstomping or something. Idk about you man, but i just stand right next to my team-members the entire fucking game and i see myself outperforming everyone healing-wise except maybe a full-Q Li Li build. You're missing the point. The context is during a team fight. not while you pad stats with her passive heal. Although, to be fair, the passive heal outside teamfights is hard to quantify. It's not exactly padding since it means less downtime between fights or while laning/mercing or whatever. So it's not actually overhealing (and hence useless). But Brightwing is (correct me if I'm wrong) the weakest burst healer in the game, so I doubt her passive is going to get touched. It's more her utility, she just has too much.
Gust of healing gives her burst heals during a team-fight and though it stops passively during your cooldown, it's still more than enough to heal people. I get that it's not as strong as a full-duration Li Li or malfurion ult, but it's still something (and apparently enough to start discussing it).
edit: and having no math to go by, means that this semi-pointless discussion could keep on going for ages. My bad...
edit2: here's the math.
From a level 10 point of view, Brightwing passively gives out 126 healing (36+(9*10)) per second, totaling in a possible 630 healing per second every 4 second. But with Gust of Healing, she gives out 126 healing every second for 4 seconds, meaning the least you go for a single-target "quick burst" is 504 or if you hit all five 2520. And that's in four seconds.
Let's compare that to Malfurion:
Tranquility gives out 20 health each second to an ally. After 4 seconds, you've given out 80 healing to one target and 400 if you hit all five. After 10 seconds (full duration) you have only done 1000 healing. It isn't as strong as you make it out to be.
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I just wanted to add some thoughts on multi-healer builds. Although this is at trash level, combining Li Li and Malfurion with both ults + storm shield eventually gives really strong teamfight heals, almost unkillable, with regrowth and Q to mitigate focus. Played Malfurion + Arthas + Li Li against typical Valla, Tychus, Stitches and BW compo's on several occasions and the teamfights were pretty disgustingly in our favour.
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