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Russian Federation262 Posts
On January 19 2015 16:41 Shikyo wrote:
It's true about performance. I have 750 Ti and can't even run it on Medium. It suggests ultra. I've heard many others have similar issues.
Daily quests being the main source of income isn't a good thing. I don't like playing a game daily for a little time. When I play a game, I can play it for 10 hours a day for a few days, then I might play something else for a few days. I hate logging into a game and playing it for 30 minutes, then doing something else. When I play a game, I want to play the game a lot. I've quit many games because they require me to log in every day, because personally I just can't stand playing something for just 30 minutes when I would prefer doing something else. I either play a game a lot or not at all. I guess people are different, though.
Anyway, you clear dailies faster by feeding as hard as you can as well, because they seem to generally be about playing matches and not wins.
Currently i have 59+ fps @ R9 270x, i5-4770, 8gb, win.8. Settings are mostly high, medium shaders and shadows, ultra models, animations and effects.
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On January 19 2015 16:54 wishr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2015 16:41 Shikyo wrote:
It's true about performance. I have 750 Ti and can't even run it on Medium. It suggests ultra. I've heard many others have similar issues.
Daily quests being the main source of income isn't a good thing. I don't like playing a game daily for a little time. When I play a game, I can play it for 10 hours a day for a few days, then I might play something else for a few days. I hate logging into a game and playing it for 30 minutes, then doing something else. When I play a game, I want to play the game a lot. I've quit many games because they require me to log in every day, because personally I just can't stand playing something for just 30 minutes when I would prefer doing something else. I either play a game a lot or not at all. I guess people are different, though.
Anyway, you clear dailies faster by feeding as hard as you can as well, because they seem to generally be about playing matches and not wins. Currently i have 59+ fps @ R9 270x, i5-4770, 8gb, win.8. Settings are mostly high, medium shaders and shadows, ultra models, animations and effects.
The issue is how processor intensive it is for how bad it looks. Normal, properly optimized games are graphics card intensive and I can play games that look twice as good with no issues.
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On January 19 2015 16:41 Shikyo wrote:
It's true about performance. I have 750 Ti and can't even run it on Medium. It suggests ultra. I've heard many others have similar issues.
Daily quests being the main source of income isn't a good thing. I don't like playing a game daily for a little time. When I play a game, I can play it for 10 hours a day for a few days, then I might play something else for a few days. I hate logging into a game and playing it for 30 minutes, then doing something else. When I play a game, I want to play the game a lot. I've quit many games because they require me to log in every day, because personally I just can't stand playing something for just 30 minutes when I would prefer doing something else. I either play a game a lot or not at all. I guess people are different, though.
Anyway, you clear dailies faster by feeding as hard as you can as well, because they seem to generally be about playing matches and not wins.
If you can't enjoy the game outside the dailies then maybe the game isn't for you? In any case you can collect dailies up to 3 I believe. So if you want to play in bigger chunks you can just do that every 3 days instead.
The feeding => faster gold / daily completion is worrisome. I would hate the game go the Hearthstone route where only winds give gold and the majority of dailies require winning (and the vast majority are completed faster if you try) rather than how they are now. I wonder if they'll be a report button or some such for griefing (I think that's how Blizzard classifies throwing games anyways).
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Actually finding a party to clear dailies are the fastest, just plan for some early rush builds. Or if you really want, party of 5 who keeps feeding will be fastest if gold is really what you want. But there will always be some people who refuses to end the game and instead farm heros instead.
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By the way if you really want to clear your dailies fast you can always queue for cooperative vs bots. The games are very fast because obviously bots are bad and you can play whatever hero you feel like since you'll win anyway. If you don't want to log in everyday well you can store up to 3 dailies. Just try to clear the 800g and 600g fast if you get them, that way you have a chance of getting them again.
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Personally I really appreciate the fact that I can play a few hours on Saturday/Sunday and maybe a few games during the week and still have ok gold income from dailies. Also, I'm a much happier person with the quests being play instead of win like in Hearthstone. If I lose, I had fun and there's no frustration that I'm not taking care of a daily quest to taint that good feeling. If I win, I had fun and I won.
My point being for the casual this is a very good thing for Blizzard to do.
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There is a daily which requires you to win 3 games but it gives good gold for how short it generally takes. Plus if you really want to knock it out fast just play 3 coop games.
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Yup, I just play coop for all dailies. What's the point of doing quickmatch for them. Coop usually ends in less than 20 minutes, either lose fast or win fast.
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Well you get more exp and gold for doing quick match, even with a loss (at least I'm pretty sure). But yeah, if you have very limited time, the option to just knock out some coops quickly to clear up some daily slots is nice. I agree with both the posts above, it's all very nice for the more casual player who doesn't session for 8 hours at a time.
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Frankly, you can get a lot out of this game just by playing a couple hours per day on average. It's hard to a imagine a better balance for casual players short of jacking up the overall gold income rates.
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On January 19 2015 14:25 Brian333 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2015 13:36 xDaunt wrote:On January 19 2015 12:40 Brian333 wrote:On January 19 2015 01:39 xDaunt wrote:On January 18 2015 23:24 Sponkz wrote:On January 18 2015 12:35 cascades wrote:
Illidan is outclassed badly by Thrall. Biggest problem is Illidan doesn't do anything to help you come back. Nothing as gamechanging as hook or even gravity field etc. Illidan is great in the hands of a pro with his 4 pro friends.
Superbanana I share your opinion instead of Sponkz again. Abathur is garbage he doesn't have an ult.
Soloqers can meet 5 stacks easy without being put in a 4-1. Thrall cannot get close unless he hits the W, which doesn't have that long range. Granted that his damage is wack right now, i don't see how Illidan is outclassed by Thrall, when he fulfills a different purpose for your team. Illidan is either a master of gibbing people out of position or being a secondary tank with immense single-target pressure. Thrall is very reliant on having people close to him and that's easy to do at lower ranks, hence why i believe he's "op". Thrall only has a little bit of trouble chasing people down in the early game. By the mid game, he can spam windfury, and pretty much anyone without a dash/blink on a low cool down is toast. And you are kidding yourself if you don't think he's grossly overpowered. There are some balance issues that are complex and hard to resolve but they are related to other things. I wouldn't say he's grossly overpowered because within a team, I don't think he's particularly better than a Brightwing, Tychus, Valla, or a well played Stitches. First off, the point about chase is a dumb one. He's a melee assassin that doesn't have upfront burst. If you look at the other "melee" assassins, what do they have? Illidan has sweeping strikes, dive, and meta and can stick for days. Kerrigan doesn't have much chase but the trade off is you are 100% dead before you can run if you get caught by the combo into rewinded combo. Zeratul has double blink which you ideally don't want to use to chase and VP which you ideally don't want to use to stop a runner but if your team can play around your VP CD, you are fine. My point is that they all have options. Singling out WF is unreasonable. Also, from a team play perspective, Thrall is a hero you can play and pick around. He's a hero that gets wrecked by CC and good teams. I've had games were Brightwings would polymorph me the second they hear the WF whirling sound. No WF, no passive healing, no mana return, no faster CDs = useless Thrall. Muradins with their stun and avatar form are also the bane of your existence as a Thrall with how they constantly interrupt your AA swings. Stitches gorging you as you dive to remove you from the fight and cancel out your WF is also incredibly frustrating. Basically any type of CC owns Thrall and it's hard to play around CC because you are a melee assassin. This is not surprising because CC also wrecks other melee assassins, too. And, talent picking around Thrall is also becoming more and more common. Early last week I would still see Vallas that picked Strafe against Thrall or Nazeebos that would pop spirit before Sundering was used. Now either are much less common. Thrall is imbalanced but for other reasons. His sustain is way too good. Like I previously said, level 20 WF combo gives you 1.6 damage, 1.6k self healing, 2.5s CD reduction, and mana return. You can basically have perma WF if you are continually landing the combo. As a result, you can solo bruiser camps and lose no health or mana. You can solo bosses and lose no health or mana. You can face tank towers, forts, keeps, and the core and lose no health or mana. You can do all that not as a specialist but as a melee assassin that is still relevant in team fights. That is the broken part of Thrall. The other broken part of Thrall comes from him being one of the only hard carries in the game. In the early game, he is garbage. Past level 16, he is a god. The problem with Thrall is without getting the upfront burst heal from his WF synergy with his passive, he is really squishy and easy to burn down in a coordinated burst. So, if you nerf his passive and his sustain, he is really going to struggle in big engagements. There's nothing complicated about why Thrall is broken, and I'm not sure why you're singling out my comment about his ability to chase when I've covered him at length elsewhere. The bottom line, as you point out, is that he can do everything as a consequence of having incredibly high damage and incredibly high sustain, as well as all sorts of other utility in his kit. Obviously something has to be taken away. It probably will be his sustain. But then again, Blizzard has always been retarded when it comes to their beloved shamans, so who knows. But like I mentioned, you take away his sustain and he's dead weight in team fights. It's like removing first aid, stoneskin, and evasion from Illidan. His passive is relatively balanced in team fights it's just broken outside of them. In a team fight, it means he won't go in and immediately die. It means even if you are low you can disengage, throw a few CLs to heal a bit / wait for your healer and then re-engage. It feels pretty balanced. In PvE, 1v1, and small skirmishes it means nobody is going to beat you. It feels broken. Those are the two extremes. That is the complexity of the issue.
Here's where I disagree with this: which assassin doesn't get completely blown up when focused by the opposing team and is otherwise reliant upon a support to keep him alive when committed to a fight? The difference with Thrall is that he can regenerate to full health in a teamfight just by using a couple abilities. I played a game a few days ago where my team had no tank (unless you count Azmodan) and I was playing Thrall. I ate a ton of initial burst and was knocked down to about 10% health. I backed off and disengaged from the teamfight. Most heroes would B at this point. Not Thrall, though. I waited for the enemy Arthas to pop his ghouls. Once he did, I sent a wolf and a chain lightning through them. Voila! I was back at ~70% health. With enemy team's ults and other main bursts on CD, I then proceeded to tear through the enemy team like shit through a goose using windfury and its retarded regeneration. That play shouldn't be able to happen. And it isn't reliant upon Arthas and ghouls. I routinely go to nearby creepwaves and do the same thing. How is this even remotely balanced for teamfights?
The bottom line is that no assassin should be able to do what Thrall does. As a rule, melee assassins should be high damage, high risk heroes that have to pick their spots carefully before going all in. Thrall doesn't have to give two fucks in most situations. Just dodge/bait the initial burst, then go to town.
Interestingly, the pro community seems to be split on what they think of Thrall. I've seen some agree with me (the fnatic guys), and I've seen others (Zuna / idream) seem to agree with you. We'll see how it shakes out.
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I'm really bad at melee assassins and with Thrall I constantly YOLO initiate. For whatever reason as ranged I'm much more cautious on ranged but once I get 16 on Thrall I consider myself invincible then start feeding kills left and right. I really need to shore up that role in my skillset. I'm good at ranged assassin, support and tank but absolutely terrible at melee assassin.
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On January 20 2015 00:22 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2015 14:25 Brian333 wrote:On January 19 2015 13:36 xDaunt wrote:On January 19 2015 12:40 Brian333 wrote:On January 19 2015 01:39 xDaunt wrote:On January 18 2015 23:24 Sponkz wrote:On January 18 2015 12:35 cascades wrote:
Illidan is outclassed badly by Thrall. Biggest problem is Illidan doesn't do anything to help you come back. Nothing as gamechanging as hook or even gravity field etc. Illidan is great in the hands of a pro with his 4 pro friends.
Superbanana I share your opinion instead of Sponkz again. Abathur is garbage he doesn't have an ult.
Soloqers can meet 5 stacks easy without being put in a 4-1. Thrall cannot get close unless he hits the W, which doesn't have that long range. Granted that his damage is wack right now, i don't see how Illidan is outclassed by Thrall, when he fulfills a different purpose for your team. Illidan is either a master of gibbing people out of position or being a secondary tank with immense single-target pressure. Thrall is very reliant on having people close to him and that's easy to do at lower ranks, hence why i believe he's "op". Thrall only has a little bit of trouble chasing people down in the early game. By the mid game, he can spam windfury, and pretty much anyone without a dash/blink on a low cool down is toast. And you are kidding yourself if you don't think he's grossly overpowered. There are some balance issues that are complex and hard to resolve but they are related to other things. I wouldn't say he's grossly overpowered because within a team, I don't think he's particularly better than a Brightwing, Tychus, Valla, or a well played Stitches. First off, the point about chase is a dumb one. He's a melee assassin that doesn't have upfront burst. If you look at the other "melee" assassins, what do they have? Illidan has sweeping strikes, dive, and meta and can stick for days. Kerrigan doesn't have much chase but the trade off is you are 100% dead before you can run if you get caught by the combo into rewinded combo. Zeratul has double blink which you ideally don't want to use to chase and VP which you ideally don't want to use to stop a runner but if your team can play around your VP CD, you are fine. My point is that they all have options. Singling out WF is unreasonable. Also, from a team play perspective, Thrall is a hero you can play and pick around. He's a hero that gets wrecked by CC and good teams. I've had games were Brightwings would polymorph me the second they hear the WF whirling sound. No WF, no passive healing, no mana return, no faster CDs = useless Thrall. Muradins with their stun and avatar form are also the bane of your existence as a Thrall with how they constantly interrupt your AA swings. Stitches gorging you as you dive to remove you from the fight and cancel out your WF is also incredibly frustrating. Basically any type of CC owns Thrall and it's hard to play around CC because you are a melee assassin. This is not surprising because CC also wrecks other melee assassins, too. And, talent picking around Thrall is also becoming more and more common. Early last week I would still see Vallas that picked Strafe against Thrall or Nazeebos that would pop spirit before Sundering was used. Now either are much less common. Thrall is imbalanced but for other reasons. His sustain is way too good. Like I previously said, level 20 WF combo gives you 1.6 damage, 1.6k self healing, 2.5s CD reduction, and mana return. You can basically have perma WF if you are continually landing the combo. As a result, you can solo bruiser camps and lose no health or mana. You can solo bosses and lose no health or mana. You can face tank towers, forts, keeps, and the core and lose no health or mana. You can do all that not as a specialist but as a melee assassin that is still relevant in team fights. That is the broken part of Thrall. The other broken part of Thrall comes from him being one of the only hard carries in the game. In the early game, he is garbage. Past level 16, he is a god. The problem with Thrall is without getting the upfront burst heal from his WF synergy with his passive, he is really squishy and easy to burn down in a coordinated burst. So, if you nerf his passive and his sustain, he is really going to struggle in big engagements. There's nothing complicated about why Thrall is broken, and I'm not sure why you're singling out my comment about his ability to chase when I've covered him at length elsewhere. The bottom line, as you point out, is that he can do everything as a consequence of having incredibly high damage and incredibly high sustain, as well as all sorts of other utility in his kit. Obviously something has to be taken away. It probably will be his sustain. But then again, Blizzard has always been retarded when it comes to their beloved shamans, so who knows. But like I mentioned, you take away his sustain and he's dead weight in team fights. It's like removing first aid, stoneskin, and evasion from Illidan. His passive is relatively balanced in team fights it's just broken outside of them. In a team fight, it means he won't go in and immediately die. It means even if you are low you can disengage, throw a few CLs to heal a bit / wait for your healer and then re-engage. It feels pretty balanced. In PvE, 1v1, and small skirmishes it means nobody is going to beat you. It feels broken. Those are the two extremes. That is the complexity of the issue. Here's where I disagree with this: which assassin doesn't get completely blown up when focused by the opposing team and is otherwise reliant upon a support to keep him alive when committed to a fight? The difference with Thrall is that he can regenerate to full health in a teamfight just by using a couple abilities. I played a game a few days ago where my team had no tank (unless you count Azmodan) and I was playing Thrall. I ate a ton of initial burst and was knocked down to about 10% health. I backed off and disengaged from the teamfight. Most heroes would B at this point. Not Thrall, though. I waited for the enemy Arthas to pop his ghouls. Once he did, I sent a wolf and a chain lightning through them. Voila! I was back at ~70% health. With enemy team's ults and other main bursts on CD, I then proceeded to tear through the enemy team like shit through a goose using windfury and its retarded regeneration. That play shouldn't be able to happen. And it isn't reliant upon Arthas and ghouls. I routinely go to nearby creepwaves and do the same thing. How is this even remotely balanced for teamfights? The bottom line is that no assassin should be able to do what Thrall does. As a rule, melee assassins should be high damage, high risk heroes that have to pick their spots carefully before going all in. Thrall doesn't have to give two fucks in most situations. Just dodge/bait the initial burst, then go to town. Interestingly, the pro community seems to be split on what they think of Thrall. I've seen some agree with me (the fnatic guys), and I've seen others (Zuna / idream) seem to agree with you. We'll see how it shakes out.
The main issues are his Windfury burst and the fact that his passive procs way too goddamned much. Make it 3 stacks but make it on ability activation, not every time it hits, then he's balanced. As far as pubs go, his main power is the fact that very few people give him the credit he deserves for how much burst he currently has. Your team has to be categorically better to beat a Thrall.
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I think it is way, way too early to make claims like that
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On January 20 2015 00:51 Tenks wrote:
I think it is way, way too early to make claims like that
I don't. The fact that any 2 of his skills can proc his passive is dumb given how much the passive heals for. The Windfury burst damage is the highest in the game for a non ultimate skill (more than snipe) if he lands all 3 hits and he needs about 1.5 seconds of melee time to do so, which is more than provided by the wolf alone.
To be in line with other melee assassins, he needs a nerf to either burst or sustain or a slight nerf to both.
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Personally I find Thrall very susceptible to zoning. Tychus grenade can shed him off, slows ruin his day and is very vulnerable to focus if you go full Windfury build on him. I could possibly see a complete support build where you shield him going in and then immediately cleanse on him when he encounters his first CC being a fun build. But if you can push him away and just kill him he explodes immediately. I didn't watch any of this weekend's competitive matches to know if Thrall was going first ban or had a 100% winrate or anything. Sure you can't take Thrall on 1v1 with basically any hero especially after 16 but even playing with and against him I've never been had this immediate thought he was a hero that we were incapable of dealing with.
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On January 20 2015 01:22 Tenks wrote:
Personally I find Thrall very susceptible to zoning. Tychus grenade can shed him off, slows ruin his day and is very vulnerable to focus if you go full Windfury build on him. I could possibly see a complete support build where you shield him going in and then immediately cleanse on him when he encounters his first CC being a fun build. But if you can push him away and just kill him he explodes immediately. I didn't watch any of this weekend's competitive matches to know if Thrall was going first ban or had a 100% winrate or anything. Sure you can't take Thrall on 1v1 with basically any hero especially after 16 but even playing with and against him I've never been had this immediate thought he was a hero that we were incapable of dealing with.
He's not impossible to deal with, but he requires much more to deal with than every other assassin in the game right now.
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On January 20 2015 01:37 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2015 01:22 Tenks wrote:
Personally I find Thrall very susceptible to zoning. Tychus grenade can shed him off, slows ruin his day and is very vulnerable to focus if you go full Windfury build on him. I could possibly see a complete support build where you shield him going in and then immediately cleanse on him when he encounters his first CC being a fun build. But if you can push him away and just kill him he explodes immediately. I didn't watch any of this weekend's competitive matches to know if Thrall was going first ban or had a 100% winrate or anything. Sure you can't take Thrall on 1v1 with basically any hero especially after 16 but even playing with and against him I've never been had this immediate thought he was a hero that we were incapable of dealing with. He's not impossible to deal with, but he requires much more to deal with than every other assassin in the game right now.
Basically this. There are ways to deal with Thrall, but the amount of effort and "resources" that have to be directed to dealing with him is out of line with other heroes.
And with regards to zoning and kiting Thrall, that works against yolo Thralls who have no idea what they're doing in teamfight situations. It does not really work against smart Thralls that hang back and let their tanks initiate the fight. Unless there's a channeling ultimate that I need to stop, I will always use my sundering to split the enemy after my tank engages. At that point, it usually is safe to charge into the fray and go to work. If my team has any kind of mass disable or slow available (Uther, Rehgar, etc), it makes my job even easier. Again, the key to avoid the initial enemy burst. Once you do that, you're golden.
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On January 19 2015 23:46 FreeZEternal wrote:
Yup, I just play coop for all dailies. What's the point of doing quickmatch for them. Coop usually ends in less than 20 minutes, either lose fast or win fast.
Co-op can be like 18 mins, no? I can feed and lose a game in 10 mins if I try my best. Same gold reward.
I don't see how they'd differentiate that I'm not just terrible at the game. You can make it seem genuine pretty easily. It's the system's fault in the first place.
The issue I have with Thrall is that he literally kills you during the 3 attacks of his Windfury and his healing is enough to 1v2 especially if slightly ahead. No one else blows people up as fast from what I've seen. He likely will be weaker in premades etc. however.
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On January 20 2015 02:29 Shikyo wrote:
The issue I have with Thrall is that he literally kills you during the 3 attacks of his Windfury and his healing is enough to 1v2 especially if slightly ahead. No one else blows people up as fast from what I've seen. He likely will be weaker in premades etc. however.
There are other heroes that have very high burst, but the difference with Thrall is that it's on such a low cooldown. By level 16, you will have close to 100% windfury up time. And his basic attack damage just seems out of whack. He seems to hit for like 100+ more damage than anyone else.
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EPT
