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You don't have the ability to pick up 2 items and then go out and kill heroes of the enemy team with 100% certainty they will die if you catch them.
I am not thinking about whether a hero is fed or not. If you look at the video from page 206, the enemy hero dodges 4 skillshots in a row from Xpeke! That's outplaying during the engagement, and it is not related to how good items they have. Now obviously it is a bit hard to make these types of plays during 5v5 battles, but there are still a reasonable amount of 2v2/3v3/2v3/2v1-engagements on some maps, where - with proper hero design - it would be awesome to see these types of play.
Also I think, 5v5 engagements would benefit from heroes being more spread out, so it's easier to "understand" as a viewer. Longer cast-range could help here.
The teamskill-cap seems to be much higher than in other MOBAs you need way mroe coordination and rotation due to the fact that you don't have a real laning phase/building up phase
Yeh, I can't talk about teamskill skillcap, but from my soloQ games I know that you get punished more with bad communication in Heroes which is more related to entrance barrier than skillcap.
Anyway, if we go back to the soccer-analogies. The charm here is the combination of individual skill and teamcoordination/gameplan. Imagine soccer without Christiano Ronaldo and Messi; That would be less interesting to watch, right? And it would probably also be bad for "casual"/young soccer players to not be inspired by the "plays" that the pro's can make.
The same concept can be applied to every single succesful real sport, basketball, NFL, icehockey etc. The only real sport I can think of where it's difficult to identify individual skill is curcling ^^.
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On November 15 2014 23:26 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +You don't have the ability to pick up 2 items and then go out and kill heroes of the enemy team with 100% certainty they will die if you catch them. I am not thinking about whether a hero is fed or not. If you look at the video from page 206, the enemy hero dodges 4 skillshots in a row from Xpeke! That's outplaying during the engagement, and it is not related to how good items they have. Now obviously it is a bit hard to make these types of plays during 5v5 battles, but there are still a reasonable amount of 2v2/3v3/2v3/2v1-engagements on some maps, where - with proper hero design - it would be awesome to see these types of play. Also I think, 5v5 engagements would benefit from heroes being more spread out, so it's easier to "understand" as a viewer. Longer cast-range could help here.
Well what essantially happend in the video was he dodged ground-targeted AoE's by moving in random patterns. This is what I exactly mean by; you can do such things in HOTS. And as you can see in the video you posted those jukes are done by stop-moving, moving closer, and randomizing the movement, all those things can be done in HOTS. With more movementspeed you could just do those dodges easier.
Then you have other people in this thread calling for more locking-abilities because they feel heroes get away with 1% hp too often, this wouldn't surly don't seem like a patch they liked.
And I tried watching LoL, I stopped because I felt the teamfights were just a big clusterfuck of effects and then still only 1-2 heroes die  I enjoy the Dota viewing experience way more. HOTS right now to me feels like something in between.
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With more movementspeed you could just do those dodges easier.
I would use the term "practical" instead of "easier". The reason the Marine is so microable in Sc2 is that it's so practical to move around with it, which increases the skill cap. Occationally you do see an Immortal or a Collosus being microed as well, but it's just not rewarded to the same extent.
And I tried watching LoL, I stopped because I felt the teamfights were just a big clusterfuck of effects and then still only 1-2 heroes die
I agree too a large extent. I think this is where MOBA's have a disadvantage relative to RTS. There are so many abilites, which makes it difficult to watch. It's definitely a genre you need to have played a critical amount before you can start watching.
But ceteris paribus - I do think having slightly more spread out engagements would make it a bit easier.
And if you play League (and Dota/Hon) you can appreciate watching pro games both for the strategical/teamgame aspect as well as the mechanical perspective, which makes for better esports.
with Diablo, Mura and Stiches I also had pretty awesome moments baiting enemies being on low hp, hiding in bushes regging while my team engages to get into fight again and secure some kills.
Yeh, bush-plays also exist in League. I think you would enjoy that game
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On November 15 2014 23:40 Hider wrote:I would use the term "practical" instead of "easier".
Then you have other people in this thread calling for more locking-abilities because they feel heroes get away with 1% hp too often, this wouldn't surly don't seem like a patch they liked.
Calling it practical ignores the quoted.
edit: "Bush"-plays also exist in Dota and Hon and i find them quite more engaging than those "bushes" in LoL and HOTS.
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On November 15 2014 05:34 Kipsate wrote:
The reason why people bring up Dota 2 and Steam is that because there is a reasonable chance that Dota 2's intended strategy was to make money via Steam in a market that was still seemingly young(LoL was already decently large though). The Dota name was strong among all of the people who played it before and thus they could captivate a decent amount of the market, its growth has most certainly caused people to buy Steam. In Asian countries where Steam is not as popular Dota 2 has led to an increase of people installing Steam there. However, Valve underestimated the growth and potential of a game as Dota 2(the growth of Dota 2 is vastly outpacing Valve's size as a company) and as such they have begun to make a very large amount of revenue from it, the intended strategy =/ the emergent strategy, namely a completely f2p model with hats. Moreover Steam also has the marketplace and community content generators which attributes to the sustainablity of this model rather then having artists making it inhouse(like in League).
And now we are in 2014, the MOBA market is heavily saturated with Dota, LoL and some random clones here and there who have a small share(rip dawngate btw). So now Blizzard has to enter a decently saturated/mature market, this means that the risk of implementing Dota 2's model is fairly large since they have NO or very little fallback on selling the their other IP's. Therefore adepting the LoL model seems more likely as LoL doesn't have any overlapping IPs either, while I do think that he HOTS model should be significantly lower in costs of heroes/champions as I have stated before it is not that weird that Blizzard has chosen to adopt that model.
Also they need to sell it to shareholders somehow.
That is pretty much the main reason for the blizzard f2p model. IMO.
On November 15 2014 14:24 Zenbrez wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2014 09:09 Kupon3ss wrote:
Dota 2 is not cheap, but HotS, a game that is functionally just a number of custom maps in a 5 year old engine with a free-to-pay frontend, certainly is. So would you call dots and league a one custom map game with an almost equally old game engine? I think I'm missing your point.
Dota2 custom maps are already running in the brand new Source2 engine.
Also, if any of you played dota in some tournaments, you wouldn't be saying that the lanning stage lacks teamplay. In pubs sure, people are just in their lane trying to to better than the opponents in the same lane. But the pub scene and tourney scene are a lot different.
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A level 24 Nova ult is enough to 100-0 a non-tank, from stealth and outside your vision range. That's pretty sound design/balance there. ._.
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On November 15 2014 23:56 Alaric wrote:
A level 24 Nova ult is enough to 100-0 a non-tank, from stealth and outside your vision range. That's pretty sound design/balance there. ._.
It can be blocked, easily. By lvl 24 you should be in groups, especially with a Nova on the other team.
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On November 15 2014 23:53 TMG26 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2014 05:34 Kipsate wrote:
The reason why people bring up Dota 2 and Steam is that because there is a reasonable chance that Dota 2's intended strategy was to make money via Steam in a market that was still seemingly young(LoL was already decently large though). The Dota name was strong among all of the people who played it before and thus they could captivate a decent amount of the market, its growth has most certainly caused people to buy Steam. In Asian countries where Steam is not as popular Dota 2 has led to an increase of people installing Steam there. However, Valve underestimated the growth and potential of a game as Dota 2(the growth of Dota 2 is vastly outpacing Valve's size as a company) and as such they have begun to make a very large amount of revenue from it, the intended strategy =/ the emergent strategy, namely a completely f2p model with hats. Moreover Steam also has the marketplace and community content generators which attributes to the sustainablity of this model rather then having artists making it inhouse(like in League).
And now we are in 2014, the MOBA market is heavily saturated with Dota, LoL and some random clones here and there who have a small share(rip dawngate btw). So now Blizzard has to enter a decently saturated/mature market, this means that the risk of implementing Dota 2's model is fairly large since they have NO or very little fallback on selling the their other IP's. Therefore adepting the LoL model seems more likely as LoL doesn't have any overlapping IPs either, while I do think that he HOTS model should be significantly lower in costs of heroes/champions as I have stated before it is not that weird that Blizzard has chosen to adopt that model.
Also they need to sell it to shareholders somehow. That is pretty much the main reason for the blizzard f2p model. IMO. Show nested quote +On November 15 2014 14:24 Zenbrez wrote:On November 15 2014 09:09 Kupon3ss wrote:
Dota 2 is not cheap, but HotS, a game that is functionally just a number of custom maps in a 5 year old engine with a free-to-pay frontend, certainly is. So would you call dots and league a one custom map game with an almost equally old game engine? I think I'm missing your point. Dota2 custom maps are already running in the brand new Source2 engine. Also, if any of you played dota in some tournaments, you wouldn't be saying that the lanning stage lacks teamplay. In pubs sure, people are just in their lane trying to to better than the opponents in the same lane. But the pub scene and tourney scene are a lot different.
Even in pubs the landing stage is frequently quite dynamic. Is also typically quite short but that can depend on strategy and be lane specific. You might preserve your safelane but be fighting as three or for from a few minutes in.
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Has Blizzard said anything about the balancing and design of older/cheaper/weaker heroes? Some are clearly underpowered, but most importantly the talent tree is pointless when there is a clear best option for each level. I have a feeling that even in Alpha or Beta they would rather release new good heroes than fixing the old ones, which is really disappointing.
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Mexico2170 Posts
I read somewhere that they are going to redesing the first ten characters or something like that.
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Anyone know/have an idea when Lost Vikings will be released?
Also, will it work like Meepo in Dota, or is there a spawner on each indiviudal hero?
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On November 16 2014 08:49 Hider wrote:
Anyone know/have an idea when Lost Vikings will be released?
Also, will it work like Meepo in Dota, or is there a spawner on each indiviudal hero?
1) January with beta probably.
2) No idea.
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the haunted mine is such an one sided map... It reminded me of steppes of war in sc2.
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I still find it less frustrating than RNG Ravenlord or the Dragonknight one (pet peeve with how more one-sided it is than other map in a "2 people are coordinated on a team and aren't on the other", and how effective stealth is on it).
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dragon is actually one of the more enjoyable one for me... as long as you were winning one of the 3 lanes, the enemy cant get the objective..
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On November 16 2014 11:20 Alaric wrote:
I still find it less frustrating than RNG Ravenlord or the Dragonknight one (pet peeve with how more one-sided it is than other map in a "2 people are coordinated on a team and aren't on the other", and how effective stealth is on it).
Dragonshire is the best balanced and IMO most fun map. RNG on Raven Lord is the only thing that pisses me off. If it was a set order where it spawned the map would be balanced and more fun. Garden is kind of annoying in pub games but really fun if you have teams coordinating. Blackheart's Bay and Mines are horrible.
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how much pay to win is involved I've never played?
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United States1874 Posts
On November 16 2014 12:26 CursedRich wrote:
how much pay to win is involved I've never played?
Not much in this cosmos; everything non-cosmetic can be grinded for and jumping in with a hero gives you no disadvantage after the first few games (where a few options are disabled; money does not affect this).
But I hear things are different in a parallel universe.
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As I've said, I strongly support paying money to keep the game fair, i.e. not pay to win, but pay to compete like SC2 and CS:GO. For example, Suggestion 4 in the OP, requiring all heroes to be unlocked to play ranked mode, can be paired with a $30 season pass to unlock all heroes in ranked mode for the entire season or a $15/month subscription that unlocks all heroes for a month.
What if you want to compete, but do not care about counterpicking? You have a small set of heroes that you enjoy playing and play well with, and naturally your interested in seeing how you fare against other people.
If we look at customer satiscation, I think the pay-to-compete system is inferior to the marginal pay-to-win advantage in LOL for instance.
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One of the things that I was liking about this game was that the games were short enough to where if I happened to get a bad team, the pain would be over quickly unlike LoL or DOTA. But goddamn, with this influx of new players, I'm getting one team after another that is just awful.
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EPT
