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On July 22 2014 04:36 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2014 04:27 Came Norrection wrote:On July 22 2014 04:13 awesomoecalypse wrote:On July 22 2014 04:02 Came Norrection wrote:
Deathlord is a stupid card. Priest puts it down turn 3 and wins the game. Cards like this just makes stuff broken.
Priest is getting way too much stuff, spectral knight is a hard counter to priest but with these new cards, its way too easy for priest to fight for board control early on and the opponent having now way to counter priest heals.
Shaman OP in new patch. Most cards are midrange forcused. Shamen has easy silence and hex. Shamen also are midranged in general.
I predicted a slower meta with the new cards. Most cards are fine but deathlord is just too much. Deathlord is great. It finally gives the game something it has needed for a long, long time--a card that hardcounters aggro/zoo the way Black Knight counters taunt druid and handlock. Currently, it is extremely easy to put together a competitive aggro/zoo deck that stomps over almost everything except expensive control decks built specifically to counter them, which means that there are huge stretches of ladder where practically all you run into is Zoo. Death Lord gives every class a cheap and accessible anti-aggro counter, which is absolutely needed. At the same time, its very weak against Giant Decks and control in general, which means that just like Black Knight it represents a meta-driven tradeoff. Running into tons of aggro and zoo? Put this in the deck and enjoy your wins. But once the meta shifts or you hit a different stage on ladder, there's a good chance it just becomes a dead card and you'll need to swap it out (vs. Handlock, for example, this is an insanely bad card). I do, however, agree that Priest is poised to become the best class in the game. Not so much because of Deathlord, and more because silence is gonna be super useful in Naxx, and Dark Cultist is the best new class card by far. The card counters more than just agro. Any card that you just play and win is just dumb. There nothing you can do against it turn 3-4 and priest will heal it. All priests would need to do is mulligan for it and win every game they have it. Hard removal don't come until turn 4-5 and even then the card you get is random so unless you are playing nothing but late game, it will be something average like a 3-4 mana minion and that is just not enough tempo. I don't agree with cards that you play on turn 3 and just win games. What kind of game is it if all you are trying to do is to mulligan for 2/30 cards and instawin? Thats really not true though. So long as you don't take more than 2 cards to kill it, its even value. So, for example, any 3 drop+Fireball will kill it, at which point you get a free minion. If that 3 drop is a Harvest Golem or Scarlet Crusader, then congrats, you just 2 for 1'd the Priest. And dropping this on turn 3 the best case scenario for this card--after turn 3 its value declines enormously. Stampeding Kodo or Black Knight used against this is a disaster. As far as Priest goes, I'm not even convinced this is a better turn 3 play than Blademaster+Circle. That takes 2 cards, but this gives your opponent a free card, so the net card value is roughly the same, and Blademaster has better stats. Its unfair to call for the use of premium 4 mana removal as a advantage. It would mean you MUST get a 4 mana or more creature for this to be good for you. Even then, fireball is a premium removal that is generally considered more powerful than 4 mana minions as utility. This in reality will trade for like 3 thing if you are lucky because priest will heal it, in a lot of cases, where you don't have any good spell removal, this thing will just stay on the board indefinitely while the priest is able to keep playing creature.
Late game its value goes down significantly but if you can't deal with it on turn 3, you will just lose from board control perspective. Its still going to stop you from playing anything smaller than a yeti on turn 3.
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no sapphiron or patchwerk 
was expecting every boss = card
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On July 22 2014 04:42 HardlyNever wrote:
I'm not sure why everyone is goin on about Deathlord. He's a middle-grade taunt at best.
For decks without the ability to get out massive taunts fast (meaning, every deck except ramp/taunt druid and handlock), Deathlord provides the ability to completely stabilize against any aggro deck much earlier than would otherwise be possible. That has big meta implications.
OTOH, I think people assuming that makes it broken are being shortsighted. Its a lousy card in control matchups--against stampeding kodo, black knight, any giant deck, etc. it is basically negative value. It'll be great for those times when all you're seeing on ladder is zoo and aggro, but when that isn't the case its not going to be a staple choice.
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Some of these deathrattles beneficial to your opponent make me wish you could shadow madness your own stuff.
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On July 22 2014 04:47 Came Norrection wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2014 04:36 awesomoecalypse wrote:On July 22 2014 04:27 Came Norrection wrote:On July 22 2014 04:13 awesomoecalypse wrote:On July 22 2014 04:02 Came Norrection wrote:
Deathlord is a stupid card. Priest puts it down turn 3 and wins the game. Cards like this just makes stuff broken.
Priest is getting way too much stuff, spectral knight is a hard counter to priest but with these new cards, its way too easy for priest to fight for board control early on and the opponent having now way to counter priest heals.
Shaman OP in new patch. Most cards are midrange forcused. Shamen has easy silence and hex. Shamen also are midranged in general.
I predicted a slower meta with the new cards. Most cards are fine but deathlord is just too much. Deathlord is great. It finally gives the game something it has needed for a long, long time--a card that hardcounters aggro/zoo the way Black Knight counters taunt druid and handlock. Currently, it is extremely easy to put together a competitive aggro/zoo deck that stomps over almost everything except expensive control decks built specifically to counter them, which means that there are huge stretches of ladder where practically all you run into is Zoo. Death Lord gives every class a cheap and accessible anti-aggro counter, which is absolutely needed. At the same time, its very weak against Giant Decks and control in general, which means that just like Black Knight it represents a meta-driven tradeoff. Running into tons of aggro and zoo? Put this in the deck and enjoy your wins. But once the meta shifts or you hit a different stage on ladder, there's a good chance it just becomes a dead card and you'll need to swap it out (vs. Handlock, for example, this is an insanely bad card). I do, however, agree that Priest is poised to become the best class in the game. Not so much because of Deathlord, and more because silence is gonna be super useful in Naxx, and Dark Cultist is the best new class card by far. The card counters more than just agro. Any card that you just play and win is just dumb. There nothing you can do against it turn 3-4 and priest will heal it. All priests would need to do is mulligan for it and win every game they have it. Hard removal don't come until turn 4-5 and even then the card you get is random so unless you are playing nothing but late game, it will be something average like a 3-4 mana minion and that is just not enough tempo. I don't agree with cards that you play on turn 3 and just win games. What kind of game is it if all you are trying to do is to mulligan for 2/30 cards and instawin? Thats really not true though. So long as you don't take more than 2 cards to kill it, its even value. So, for example, any 3 drop+Fireball will kill it, at which point you get a free minion. If that 3 drop is a Harvest Golem or Scarlet Crusader, then congrats, you just 2 for 1'd the Priest. And dropping this on turn 3 the best case scenario for this card--after turn 3 its value declines enormously. Stampeding Kodo or Black Knight used against this is a disaster. As far as Priest goes, I'm not even convinced this is a better turn 3 play than Blademaster+Circle. That takes 2 cards, but this gives your opponent a free card, so the net card value is roughly the same, and Blademaster has better stats. Its unfair to call for the use of premium 4 mana removal as a advantage. It would mean you MUST get a 4 mana or more creature for this to be good for you. Even then, fireball is a premium removal that is generally considered more powerful than 4 mana minions as utility. This in reality will trade for like 3 thing if you are lucky because priest will heal it, in a lot of cases, where you don't have any good spell removal, this thing will just stay on the board indefinitely while the priest is able to keep playing creature. Late game its value goes down significantly but if you can't deal with it on turn 3, you will just lose from board control perspective. Its still going to stop you from playing anything smaller than a yeti on turn 3.
I would feel totally fine dropping a Harvest Golem or Scarlet Crusader against this on turn 3. I wouldn't even really feel bad about dropping a 4/3, or a Frothing Berserker, or a Raging Worgen, or an Unbound Elemental if I had overload cards in hand, or a Feral Spirit...
Basically, there are a lot of 3 drops that this thing can't kill, and if you can combo any of them with halfway decent removal on turn 4 you're golen. Turn 3 Kirin Tor Mage, Turn 4 Frostbolt+Hero Power can absolutely get the job done, for example.
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most cards favour aggro decks, i would have liked to see more strong 5 and 6 drops tbh.
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On July 22 2014 04:49 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2014 04:42 HardlyNever wrote:
I'm not sure why everyone is goin on about Deathlord. He's a middle-grade taunt at best.
For decks without the ability to get out massive taunts fast (meaning, every deck except ramp/taunt druid and handlock), Deathlord provides the ability to completely stabilize against any aggro deck much earlier than would otherwise be possible. That has big meta implications. OTOH, I think people assuming that makes it broken are being shortsighted. Its a lousy card in control matchups--against stampeding kodo, black knight, any giant deck, etc. it is basically negative value. It'll be great for those times when all you're seeing on ladder is zoo and aggro, but when that isn't the case its not going to be a staple choice.
I would not want to play in a meta where all the decks are control warrior, ramp druid and handlock.
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On July 22 2014 03:40 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2014 03:33 Algis wrote:+ Show Spoiler +With cards like spectral and loatheb i'm afraid control becomes shit :/.
Also the those extra taunt cards counter face decks.
Also all the tempo cards and cards that benefit from board control and buffs etc...
Expecting nothing but midrange and mb zoo. + Show Spoiler +Control decks like Handlock, ramp druid and Giant Mage are as strong as ever. Stronger, really, since they can hardcounter aggro now. Control warrior should be fine as well.
What have really been nerfed are decks built purely around spells like Miracle Rogue. Miracle Rogue gets screwed really hard by cards like Loatheb and Spectral Knight.
But that strikes me as intentional on Blizzard's part--they want the game to be about fighting for board control, not playing 30 damage solitaire with a deck with like 25 spells+Leeroy in it. Control decks will absolutely still exist, but they will still need to play minions and not just rely purely on spells.
Similarly, I think Aggro decks will still have a place, but as a meta choice--whenever Giant decks become so dominant that Death Lord becomes a really bad choice and people start taking it out of their decks, you'll see Aggro make a comeback and do well until people are forced to make choices to counter it, at which point Giant decks will make a comeback and the cycle will continue.
Yeh of course miracle gets screwed over far more then warrior and handlock, but i don't agree the will remain as strong as before.
As handlock if u have giants or twilight drakes on the board u can use them to clear (though the drakes need some help sometimes in from of a soulfire), but you much rather would siphon soul the target and hit face.
And incase u don't have a giant on board? Normally u delay wiht siphon or best case pull some hellfire molten (sunfury) soul fire combo. But now u still have a minion on bard that can help deal with the giant(s), or just mb kill u.
Warrior has ghorehowl of course, but if he doesn't draw it he's kinda screwed right? Cuz apart form the weapon control warrior only has executes and shield slams to deal with the larger 4-5-6 mana cost creatures before it puts out its big guys on a clear(er) board. (Though admittedly warrior faces the same difficulty with cairne and devine shield guys with the current card pool.)
I suppose the versions with more midrange cards like yeti's or elites or wh will have less of a problem, but thats what i mean, this shit will make decks be more midrange. U need board control to deal with minions like those 2 5 drops, and a lot of other naxx cards favor ppl wiht board control or give good temp plays. So yeh thats why i think midrange got stronger.
Druid is fine ofc, ramp or midrange wh doesnt matter, he's the guy who will be innervating out these dudes and give me a headache. I guess it will make having board control even more important in druid mirrors, making it even more dependent on curving out well/getting wild growths. But the match up is all draw dependent alrdy, so /wh.
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On July 22 2014 04:47 xuanzue wrote:no sapphiron or patchwerk was expecting every boss = card
there's still like 5 cards they haven't announced yet
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On July 22 2014 04:59 Schelim wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2014 04:47 xuanzue wrote:no sapphiron or patchwerk was expecting every boss = card there's still like 5 cards they haven't announced yet
all 30 cards are on the facebook page now
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On July 22 2014 05:01 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2014 04:59 Schelim wrote:On July 22 2014 04:47 xuanzue wrote:no sapphiron or patchwerk was expecting every boss = card there's still like 5 cards they haven't announced yet all 30 cards are on the facebook page now
oh, my bad. i don't really like that they released everything before it even starts coming out tbh.
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Call me crazy, but I think Mad Scientist is the strongest card here.
It is essentially a "tutor" (MtG slang) that puts a 1-3 mana card directly into play AND has a decent body, compared to Loot Hoarder / Novice Engineer. People are deceived by the word "random"... truth is, competitive decks can play no more that 2 or 3 different secrets, and we know (Ben Brode's tweet) that the Scientist can't get a secret that's already on the battlefield, so we have a bit of control over that. Like, essentially it means that's going to grab a Ice Block whenever needed. Not to mention it's +1 durability for Eaglehorn Bow for free.
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On July 22 2014 05:04 Big G wrote:
Call me crazy, but I think Mad Scientist is the strongest card here.
It is essentially a "tutor" (MtG slang) that puts a 1-3 mana card directly into play AND has a decent body, compared to Loot Hoarder / Novice Engineer. People are deceived by the word "random"... truth is, competitive decks can play no more that 2 or 3 different secrets, and we know (Ben Brode's tweet) that the Scientist can't get a secret that's already on the battlefield, so we have a bit of control over that. Like, essentially it means that's going to grab a Ice Block whenever needed. Not to mention it's +1 durability for Eaglehorn Bow for free.
I agree. Not only Ice Block would be great, but Mad Scientist + Mirror Entity would also be quite nice for the tempo play. And ofcourse it would fit right into some Midrange Hunter deck, along with the other new Beast cards.
Very excited about it all. Looks fantastic. I'm definitely gonna experiment a lot with Priest (like nearly everyone will), Hunter and Mage.
Edit: things I'm considering: some kind of Watcher Midrange Priest with Cabals, the 1 mana 2/3 and the Silence all your own minions guy. Some kind of tempo Hunter with Mad Scientist + Freezing Traps and Spiders and tempo Mage.
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On July 22 2014 05:04 Big G wrote:
Call me crazy, but I think Mad Scientist is the strongest card here.
It is essentially a "tutor" (MtG slang) that puts a 1-3 mana card directly into play AND has a decent body, compared to Loot Hoarder / Novice Engineer. People are deceived by the word "random"... truth is, competitive decks can play no more that 2 or 3 different secrets, and we know (Ben Brode's tweet) that the Scientist can't get a secret that's already on the battlefield, so we have a bit of control over that. Like, essentially it means that's going to grab a Ice Block whenever needed. Not to mention it's +1 durability for Eaglehorn Bow for free.
I don't know if it's the strongest card but it will definitely have a very strong impact on the way secret-classes play out. it's a strict upgrade for freeze mage and will help the other classes immensely.
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On July 22 2014 05:04 Big G wrote:
Call me crazy, but I think Mad Scientist is the strongest card here.
It is essentially a "tutor" (MtG slang) that puts a 1-3 mana card directly into play AND has a decent body, compared to Loot Hoarder / Novice Engineer. People are deceived by the word "random"... truth is, competitive decks can play no more that 2 or 3 different secrets, and we know (Ben Brode's tweet) that the Scientist can't get a secret that's already on the battlefield, so we have a bit of control over that. Like, essentially it means that's going to grab a Ice Block whenever needed. Not to mention it's +1 durability for Eaglehorn Bow for free.
The card has some potential but I'm really not sure which deck it will work best in. The problem with bow hunter is figuring out what to do when you don't draw bow. The deck is pretty solid already when you do. The problem with putting it in freeze mage is that while fetching the secret is important, it's not too useful a creature and will likely die for free since nothing else will soak the removal. It's also troublesome to end up your singleton vaporize since it has very specific uses. In paladin, you're only getting 1 mana cost secrets out of it anyway. Maybe some of them will be worth it but the opportunity cost is high.
My issue with this card is that it takes away from the fun aspect of the secrets: the mindgames and layering. There's no mindgames if it's random.
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Russian Federation0 Posts
So hyped again. Looks like silence will be a must have effect for every deck now.
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I really like all of the cards and what they'll bring to the table... except Death Lord. It just seems way too OP.
Why don't people run mindgames? Because what you pull from it, on average, sucks. So by that same logic, the minion summoned from the opponent's deck will probably not be a big deal, especially given that merely playing this card is pretty much going to guarantee you incredible board control and tempo. In priest, it may not ever die, as they can heal it and it'll be a long time before you can do 8 damage burst on it at 3 mana. More, if they pop a power world shield or health doubler on it.
This isn't also considering how the summoned monster won't get a battlecry, so you could potentially mess your opponent up on top of all this.
Yeah, it may counter aggro really well... But its cheap cost means that the aggro decks themselves can easily afford to run it. Basically, you have no reason not to run it, regardless of the deck you play. It's that good.
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On July 22 2014 05:35 MCXD wrote:
I really like all of the cards and what they'll bring to the table... except Death Lord. It just seems way too OP.
Why don't people run mindgames? Because what you pull from it, on average, sucks. So by that same logic, the minion summoned from the opponent's deck will probably not be a big deal, especially given that merely playing this card is pretty much going to guarantee you incredible board control and tempo. In priest, it may not ever die, as they can heal it and it'll be a long time before you can do 8 damage burst on it at 3 mana. More, if they pop a power world shield or health doubler on it.
Yeah, it may counter aggro. But it's cheap cost means that the aggro decks themselves can easily afford to run it. Basically, you have no reason not to run it. It's that good.
turn 2 coin deathlord , turn 3 divine spirit + inner fire = gg?
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Kel'Thuzard + Harvest Golem/Savannah Highmane/Carine Bloodhoof = free minions?
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Death Lord gets countered by Crazed Alchemist.
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EPT
