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On July 30 2014 23:12 Plaid_Dragon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 17:16 Nekovivie wrote:
No offense but posting a game from rank 15 doesn't really demonstrate much. You can pretty much use any cards/decks at these ranks and see success. Careful. Even suggesting that people's opinions and mindsets are irrelevant based on their rank is a slippery slope.
He didn't say anything about opinions or mindsets, just that at rank 15 you can use a large variety of decks with cards that are not good. So winning a game at that level to show that a single card is good does not demonstrate much. There were no insults, there was just a statement that I think most people would agree with.
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On July 30 2014 17:38 Shikyo wrote:
Duplicate comboes so well with Mad Scientist..
This. On its own, Duplicate is pretty meh. Its a massive, massive tempo loss to play on turn 3--worse even than arcane intellect, which at least gives you the card immediately. And while there is some potential to get 2 badass legendaries or whatever, the fact that your opponent chooses how to trigger it makes that sort of meh.
But with Mad Scientist that changes dramatically. Mad Scientist can essentially be read as "play a random secret from your deck for 2 mana, and put a 2/2 body into play". Which completely mitigates the downside of Duplicate, meaning it comes with zero tempo loss, nor does it leave you down a card in hand until your opponent triggers it. It goes from being much worse than Arcane Intellect to much better. Turn 2 Mad Scientist, Turn 3 trade it and drop a decent 3 drop (or coin a yeti or water elemental) and your opponent is suddenly in an extremely awkward spot.
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Ive only had success with Duplicate and leper gnome.
You can never have enough leper gnomes!
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Would be nice with giants, if you play a cheap mountain giant and they kill it you have 2 cheap mountain giants next turn. Same goes for Molten giants but they can also be completely free. Twilight drakes become better with the extra cards. Biggest deal is finding a way to use this secret defensively, so you don't just get run over before the value starts having an effect. Adding unstable ghouls to the mix has given me some good results so far, your defensive measures go from only freeze and doomsayers to unstable ghouls and possible duplicate copies of those minions. And the ghouls have some synergy with acolye as well.
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who knows, mad scientist may make a secrets mage deck viable... maybe... if you have good rng...
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On July 31 2014 00:08 AHeroicKumquat wrote:
who knows, mad scientist may make a secrets mage deck viable... maybe... if you have good rng...
Just only run secrets that work with your deck concept and rng isn't really a factor. Personally, I think a deck running Mad Scientist, Kirin Tor Mage, Duplicate and Mirror Entity could get out of hand for the opponent incredibly fast.
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On July 31 2014 00:59 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 00:08 AHeroicKumquat wrote:
who knows, mad scientist may make a secrets mage deck viable... maybe... if you have good rng...
Just only run secrets that work with your deck concept and rng isn't really a factor. Personally, I think a deck running Mad Scientist, Kirin Tor Mage, Duplicate and Mirror Image could get out of hand for the opponent incredibly fast.
Wouldn't it be counterproductive to run mirror images along with duplicate, seems like it would be pretty terrible if you gave yourself two 0/2 taunts?
But other than that, you're probably right, although in the current pool of secrets, i cant say i see an obvious theme between them, like, in a lot of situations you could just be suiciding your scientist and praying for one specific secret
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On July 31 2014 01:07 AHeroicKumquat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 00:59 awesomoecalypse wrote:On July 31 2014 00:08 AHeroicKumquat wrote:
who knows, mad scientist may make a secrets mage deck viable... maybe... if you have good rng...
Just only run secrets that work with your deck concept and rng isn't really a factor. Personally, I think a deck running Mad Scientist, Kirin Tor Mage, Duplicate and Mirror Image could get out of hand for the opponent incredibly fast. Wouldn't it be counterproductive to run mirror images along with duplicate, seems like it would be pretty terrible if you gave yourself two 0/2 taunts? But other than that, you're probably right, although in the current pool of secrets, i cant say i see an obvious theme between them, like, in a lot of situations you could just be suiciding your scientist and praying for one specific secret
It looks like awesomoecalypse corrected himself while you were replying.
Very interesting stuff ...
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I look at it as insurance against removal of your big cards in freeze decks. You can play it the turn before the giants or alexstrazza or antonidas comes out.
Its also gives you +1 card for mountain giant/azure twilight drake plays. You no longer have to be worried as much about silenced twilight drakes. T3 duplicate, T4 azure drake -> silenced owl -> opponent trades a 3 drop gives you +1 cards is pretty good.
Another good target to duplicate would be thalnos. You could also make a taunt deck with mage.
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yeah i feel its going to have to work with either really cheap minion(2 or less) or expensive big minions(ideally molten, alex, etc)
Getting 2 4/5/6 drops in hand is like. ummmm okay. because you dont want it to be a dead card for entire game and start using it turn 10.
It will create an extra mind fuck though of which secret is it.
Rise of secret mage?
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There's also the never ending Kirin Tor but the problem with that is you have no draw.
Maybe duplicate Coldlight mill craziness.
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On July 31 2014 01:07 AHeroicKumquat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 00:59 awesomoecalypse wrote:On July 31 2014 00:08 AHeroicKumquat wrote:
who knows, mad scientist may make a secrets mage deck viable... maybe... if you have good rng...
Just only run secrets that work with your deck concept and rng isn't really a factor. Personally, I think a deck running Mad Scientist, Kirin Tor Mage, Duplicate and Mirror Image could get out of hand for the opponent incredibly fast. Wouldn't it be counterproductive to run mirror images along with duplicate, seems like it would be pretty terrible if you gave yourself two 0/2 taunts? But other than that, you're probably right, although in the current pool of secrets, i cant say i see an obvious theme between them, like, in a lot of situations you could just be suiciding your scientist and praying for one specific secret
I meant mirror entity, sorry. Basically, Mad Scientist that summons mirror entity is a 2/2+one of your opponent's minions for 2 mana and one card (since mad scientist summons the secret from your deck and plays it for free, it only costs 1 card from your hand). Mad Scientist that summons duplicate is a 2/2+minion only arcane intellect for 2 mana and one card. The Kirin Tor Mage combos aren't quite as insane as that, but they're still very solid and major tempo play.
I dunno if "secret decks" in the sense of decks that just run all the secrets and all the cards keying off secrets will ever be viable. Some of those cards like Ethereal Arcanist and Secretkeeper still kinda suck, and many of those secrets don't really synergize that well with mad scientist and kirin tor mage (counterspell, for example, has minimal synergy with either).
But I do think that duplicate and mirror entity specifically will combo really well with mad scientist, which will make Kirin Tor more attractive as well, and we'll start to see Mage decks running those specific cards to take a major tempo lead and build a crazy board presence before turn 4.
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Tested some decks with duplicates, had fun with 3x loetheb and 3x antonidas. People wasn't expecting it, so it's working in control matches.
Mostly the problem was that needed to control to board so I could trade on my turn and play duplicate and next turn play loatheb on empty board to get it duplicated.
Agaisnt aggro it just bad when they are usually ignoring the minion, need to try it with sunfury protectors I guess.
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On July 31 2014 02:00 Eggi wrote:
Rise of secret mage?
With Mad Scientist I can definitely see it at least been tried. My experience with it is very limited but Duplicate has turned out a little better than I expected (I thought it would be worthless).
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Played an interesting game w/ a duplicate secrets deck.
He killed 3 minions when I had duplicate in play.
I had Kirin Tor, loot hoarder and secretkeeper.
Kirin Tor was returned; it was my left most minion.
Anyone think the assignment of minion to be returned is random or what?
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I think it returns the minion based on the order that they are played. So I would guess the first minion played is the one brought back in cases where multiple minions die at once.
Edit: It could be random as well, someone would have to test it.
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It seems like a poor pay 3 draw 2 cards later, the problem is that you can control what dies
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Duplicating Kirin Tor seems pretty decent, it gives you more opportunities to play free secrets and it eats up some removal/minions no matter what. In a secrets deck Etheral Archanist is a 5/5 for 4 mana, too. The problem is that it's a decent minion based board control card in a meh minion board control class. The fundamental problem with Mage is that none of the secrets are decent at affecting the board. Instead of being a 3 Mana spell the freeze all minions card should have been a secret. Vaporize is severely overrated, and much worse than Explosive Trap because it's super easy to play around without causing much trouble. The best Mage secrets are the defensive ones, but those slow down your ability to play the board by causing you to spend 3 mana on them. Mad Scientist might become a staple just to get Ice Blocks up, though.
The dream, with this deck, is playing Mad Scientist into Kirin Tor into Ethernal Archanist, and maybe having the secret be a Mirror Entity, but even that happening might just not be that strong.
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On July 31 2014 04:29 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 01:07 AHeroicKumquat wrote:On July 31 2014 00:59 awesomoecalypse wrote:On July 31 2014 00:08 AHeroicKumquat wrote:
who knows, mad scientist may make a secrets mage deck viable... maybe... if you have good rng...
Just only run secrets that work with your deck concept and rng isn't really a factor. Personally, I think a deck running Mad Scientist, Kirin Tor Mage, Duplicate and Mirror Image could get out of hand for the opponent incredibly fast. Wouldn't it be counterproductive to run mirror images along with duplicate, seems like it would be pretty terrible if you gave yourself two 0/2 taunts? But other than that, you're probably right, although in the current pool of secrets, i cant say i see an obvious theme between them, like, in a lot of situations you could just be suiciding your scientist and praying for one specific secret I meant mirror entity, sorry. Basically, Mad Scientist that summons mirror entity is a 2/2+one of your opponent's minions for 2 mana and one card (since mad scientist summons the secret from your deck and plays it for free, it only costs 1 card from your hand). Mad Scientist that summons duplicate is a 2/2+minion only arcane intellect for 2 mana and one card. The Kirin Tor Mage combos aren't quite as insane as that, but they're still very solid and major tempo play. I dunno if "secret decks" in the sense of decks that just run all the secrets and all the cards keying off secrets will ever be viable. Some of those cards like Ethereal Arcanist and Secretkeeper still kinda suck, and many of those secrets don't really synergize that well with mad scientist and kirin tor mage (counterspell, for example, has minimal synergy with either). But I do think that duplicate and mirror entity specifically will combo really well with mad scientist, which will make Kirin Tor more attractive as well, and we'll start to see Mage decks running those specific cards to take a major tempo lead and build a crazy board presence before turn 4.
Well, I think you're probably right on it being a tech choice of sorts in current mage builds although I don't know if decks that don't already run secrets would add in a few just to make this card live, but this card is gonna be really cool cause there's gonna be a lot of experimentation around it, and that's always fun to watch, if only for the free wins when the experiments go wrong 
At an rate, I could certainly see freeze mage at least experimenting with the mad scientists so that they can get to the ice block more consistently, since that's basically life or death against miracle or aggro
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On July 31 2014 11:33 hokeypocus wrote:
Played an interesting game w/ a duplicate secrets deck.
He killed 3 minions when I had duplicate in play.
I had Kirin Tor, loot hoarder and secretkeeper.
Kirin Tor was returned; it was my left most minion.
Anyone think the assignment of minion to be returned is random or what?
I played against a mage who played duplicate, and when I aoe'd his board of four minions and he got back a mana wyrm, which I'm pretty sure was his leftmost minion. It could be that because the leftmost minion is the last to die in animations (I think) it is actually the last to die before the secret activates, so thats the one the secret targets, could be wrong though
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EPT
