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Metro Policeman Shoots Rider - Page 8

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onepost
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada297 Posts
January 08 2009 16:35 GMT
#141
On January 08 2009 23:57 Nitrogen wrote:
oakland always has the stupidest fucking reasons to riot. remember in 2003 when they lost the super bowl? the rioters always have stupid reasons

Montreal is worse in that regard: Police cars burned, stores looted in Montreal hockey riot. There was also a riot in 1993 when the Canadians last won the Stanley cup.
There are three types of lies: statistics, studies, and benchmarks.
outqast
Profile Joined October 2005
United States287 Posts
January 08 2009 17:24 GMT
#142
On January 08 2009 20:50 IzzyCraft wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 08 2009 20:12 outqast wrote:
On January 08 2009 15:47 EvilTeletubby wrote:
On January 08 2009 15:43 CDRdude wrote:
Holy shit, this has turned into a full-blown riot O_O. The whole BART-shooting thing started a protest, and now it seems like it's blown all to hell.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/07/BA2N155CN1.DTL

+ Show Spoiler +
(01-07) 21:13 PST Oakland -- A protest over the fatal shooting by a BART police officer of an unarmed man mushroomed into a violent confrontation tonight, as a faction of protesters smashed a police car and storefronts, set several cars on fire and blocked streets in downtown Oakland.

Protesters smashed the storefronts of McDonald's as well as stores called Creative African Braids and Oakland Yoon's Pharmacy. Cars along 14th Street were smashed, and some were set ablaze.

A woman walked out of Creative African Braids holding a baby in her arms.

"This is our business," she shouted. "This is our shop. This is what you call a protest?"

Nia Sykes, 24, of San Francisco, a protester who was with the group, said, "I feel like the night is going great. I feel like Oakland should make some noise. This is how we need to fight back.

"It's for the murder of a black male," said Sykes, who is black. The demonstration "is totally appropriate."

Sykes had little sympathy for the owner of Creative African Braids.

"She should be glad she just lost her business and not her life," Sykes said. She added that she did have one worry for the night: "I just hope nobody gets shot or killed."

Near 14th and Alice streets, Myron Bell was taking lessons in a step, a form of dance popular among African Americans, when he looked out the window and saw people jumping on his Lexus sedan.

Bell, 42, came out to find that almost all of his windows, including the front and back had been smashed and it appeared that someone had tried to set the car on fire.

"I'm for the cause," Bell said. "But I'm against the violence and destruction."

Nearby, Godhuli Bose stood near her smashed Toyota Corolla, and a protester walked by, repeatedly calling her a misogynist epithet.

"F- your car. F- your car," he said to Bose. Bose, a high school teacher: "I can't afford this."

The protest started peacefully shortly after 3 p.m. at the Fruitvale Station in Oakland, where BART police Officer Johannes Mehserle shot 22-year-old Oscar Grant of Hayward to death early New Year's Day. BART shut down the station well into the evening commute, although the demonstration there was peaceful.

However, shortly after nightfall, a group of roughly 200 protesters split off and head toward downtown Oakland, prompting the transit agency to close the Lake Merritt station.

Oakland Police Officer Michael Cardoza parked his car across the intersection of Eighth and Madison streets, to prevent traffic from flowing toward Broadway and into the protest. But he told The Chronicle that a group of 30 to 40 protesters quickly surrounded his car and started smashing it with bottles and rocks.

Cardoza jumped out of the car and said some protesters tried to set the car on fire, while others jumped on top of the hood - incidents repeatedly shown on television. Cardoza said the protesters "were trying to entice us into doing something."

A group of protesters also set a trash bin aflame, moving it adjacent to the police car.

Police threw tear gas into the group to disperse it, Sgt. Mark MacAulay said. After 8 p.m., there were numerous arrests.

"When you get that mob mentality, it can be dangerous," MacAulay said.

Other protesters marched on BART's 12th Street Station about 7 p.m., prompting the transit agency to close the downtown hub station even as it was reopening the Lake Merritt and Fruitvale stations.

Protesters blocked the intersection of 14th and Broadway, near the downtown BART station entrance. As police put on helmets and gas masks and stood in a line formation, protesters held signs that read, "Your idea of justice?" and "Jail Killer Cops."

One man lay in the intersection with his face down and his hands behind his back - seemingly evoking the position that Grant was in when he was shot.

Some protesters wore masks over their faces as they yelled at police. Roughly a dozen stood just a few feet away from police as they screamed at them. Chants included "pigs go home," "the fascist police, no justice, no peace" and "we are all Oscar Grant."

Mandingo Hayes, who is black, said he went to the protest because "we're tired of all these police agencies getting away with shooting unarmed black and Latino males."

Hayes, 36, downplayed the attack on the police car.

"For a police car to get abused, and for a person to get shot and killed, which would you rather be?" said Hayes, a construction worker from San Pablo.

The core group of protesters was about 40 people, several of whom were with Revolution Books, a Berkeley bookstore. A man distributing "The Revolution" newspaper shouted "This whole damn system is guilty!"

Earlier in the day, police had been largely passive. But at around 7:54 p.m., they began to push the crowd toward Lake Merritt. One officer shouted "Get Back! Get Back! Get Back!" As they forced protesters back, protesters smashed windows, cars and threw objects at police.


The proximity of this really shocks me, to go home from university for the weekend, I take the train through Oakland. Wow.


Wow.... Proof people are fucking retarded. So their answer to what they believe was senseless violence is... senseless violence?


Sometimes it is the only way this gets national attention.

This is not an isolated incident. I have personal experience with this kind of discrimination and every minority I know has had negative experiences with the police. I come from a rich suburb yet and still, this kinda thing still goes on. In fact, the dumb dumb head of police in my suburb just "resigned" because she openly told the city council that they were only stopping black people. This is not an isolated incident and just because you all don't have run-ins with the police doesn't mean it does not happen on a regular basis. There are some good police officers, but the nature of law enforcement breeds this kinda thinking.

LOL DISCRIMINATION THEY WHERE ARRESTED FOR FIGHTING ON PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION while being drunk LOL in one of the most non racist area's in America yeah i'm sure the policeman was like"dam nigger gets what he gets" And have you ever stayed in Oakland they aren't rioting because of outrage it's because they can and most of them are idiots it was the bad part of Oakland anyways. It's like is Richmond had riots t-t yeah highest murder rate go piss off about the police not the people that instiage shit.


Actually I was talking about the original crime, not about the riots.

I would appreciate if you did not use racial epithets. I have stayed in Oakland before. I stay with my friends who live in the "bad" part of Oakland and Richmond all the time all the time. Have you ever stayed in the "bad" part of Oakland, I doubt it?

I know I will not convince most of you about the strained and complicated relationship between minorities and the police, but I will say this. The comments in this thread show a complete lack of understanding of the relationship between the police and minorities in the United States. This makes sense because the average TL poster is teenage middle to upper class Asian or white poster. However, given this fact I encourage you to educate yourself on the problem before you make uninformed comments like....

LOL THOSE 'guys aRE SUCH idiotS why would THEY DESTROY THEIR OWN OWN STUFF WHEN A GUY DIES

This is not representative of most police officers in the United States. 99.99% of police officers are good police officers,

opsayo
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
591 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-08 19:01:34
January 08 2009 18:54 GMT
#143
Has this been pointed out?

Police belt: note gun and taser:
[image loading]


taser:
[image loading]


taser in holster:
[image loading]


Also, with a little research you can find BART police are allowed to carry tasers on their dominant (right hand left hand) side.

I didn't read this thread to see if the video was posted, but the confused look on the officer's face is pretty clear post-shot.
(shorter video than the one in the OP:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQxBg5Jxp7c)

Let's not go on a witch hunt, let due process take its course.

It's also pretty clear the guy is resisting being handcuffed and isn't actually handcuffed, since his hand comes out after being shot. Don't take everything in the biased article at face value. It is relatively common for cops to threaten (or actually) use a taser on a subject who is resisting arrest. It causes less injury than physically forcing a man to put his arms behind his back.

Be still, you bleeding hearts.
twincannon
Profile Joined December 2008
United States31 Posts
January 08 2009 19:29 GMT
#144
would take some serious lack of training to mistake a handgun for a taser. I guess if you had adrenaline going you wouldn't notice the weight difference, but again, lack of experience... shouldn't even have a gun. hope he gets all that he deserves.
Mooga
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States575 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-08 22:46:34
January 08 2009 22:45 GMT
#145
In the second video, it is clear that the cop pulls out his gun at 1:23 and then immediately stands up and shoots the victim at 1:26. If that's not intent to kill, then I don't know what is. It's not like he was standing there aiming his gun at the victim for an hour waiting for his finger to slip.

Also, I love how people assume that all cops are the true "role-model" citizens that everyone should look up to. How many cops graduated from college? Exactly. They're just ordinary people (with lower than average intelligence), except they get "training" and have the authority to carry a gun around and "accidentally" shoot people.
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
January 08 2009 22:55 GMT
#146
Ah shit I ride bart quite often too...
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
BlackJack
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States10574 Posts
July 03 2010 00:02 GMT
#147
Jury is deliberating on the murder trial of the police officer now

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/07/02/subway.shooting/index.html?hpt=T1

sikyon
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada1045 Posts
July 03 2010 04:29 GMT
#148
The police officer is pleading that he didn't know that he got out his gun instead of his taser... hmm...

Pretty good defense. I'm going to go with a conviction of either involuntary manslaughter, or something less like negligent death?

If you don't know you're doing something (mens rea) you're not guilty of it. Ie. if you get in a stolen car that you don't know is stolen, you're not guilty of riding in a stolen car. If you pull a taser you think is a gun and shoot someone, you're not guilty of murder. Of course, you have to prove that you didn't know it and the jury has to accept it. I just can't see there being any motive in this case for a murder though. Cops don't just run around executing people.

In this case I expect that the prosecution can't prove that the cop knew it was a gun (they are similar, lets be honest here). They can prove he SHOULD have known it was a gun, via training and such, and that he acted rashly. But from the videos, a murder conviction doesn't seem appropriate (but a lesser punishment does).

I'm actually sympathetic towards the officer since it looks like he just had a bad day (being a cop is a shit job, if you hadn't infered it from the peanut gallery in the videos) but he did shoot someone and he does have to be punished.
Myles
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5162 Posts
July 03 2010 04:36 GMT
#149
On July 03 2010 13:29 sikyon wrote:
The police officer is pleading that he didn't know that he got out his gun instead of his taser... hmm...

Pretty good defense. I'm going to go with a conviction of either involuntary manslaughter, or something less like negligent death?

If you don't know you're doing something (mens rea) you're not guilty of it. Ie. if you get in a stolen car that you don't know is stolen, you're not guilty of riding in a stolen car. If you pull a taser you think is a gun and shoot someone, you're not guilty of murder. Of course, you have to prove that you didn't know it and the jury has to accept it. I just can't see there being any motive in this case for a murder though. Cops don't just run around executing people.

In this case I expect that the prosecution can't prove that the cop knew it was a gun (they are similar, lets be honest here). They can prove he SHOULD have known it was a gun, via training and such, and that he acted rashly. But from the videos, a murder conviction doesn't seem appropriate (but a lesser punishment does).

I'm actually sympathetic towards the officer since it looks like he just had a bad day (being a cop is a shit job, if you hadn't infered it from the peanut gallery in the videos) but he did shoot someone and he does have to be punished.


I agree with most of your points, especially that a cop should(and likely did) know the difference between a gun and a taser. However, I have no sympathy for the cop even if he had the worse day of his life. The guy he shot has no more days of his life. Damn... punching him, kicking him, throwing him against a wall, I could sympathize with that, but not shooting the guy.
Moderator
CatfooD
Profile Joined April 2010
United States203 Posts
July 03 2010 07:16 GMT
#150
+ Show Spoiler +
On July 03 2010 13:29 sikyon wrote:
The police officer is pleading that he didn't know that he got out his gun instead of his taser... hmm...

Pretty good defense. I'm going to go with a conviction of either involuntary manslaughter, or something less like negligent death?

If you don't know you're doing something (mens rea) you're not guilty of it. Ie. if you get in a stolen car that you don't know is stolen, you're not guilty of riding in a stolen car. If you pull a taser you think is a gun and shoot someone, you're not guilty of murder. Of course, you have to prove that you didn't know it and the jury has to accept it. I just can't see there being any motive in this case for a murder though. Cops don't just run around executing people.

In this case I expect that the prosecution can't prove that the cop knew it was a gun (they are similar, lets be honest here). They can prove he SHOULD have known it was a gun, via training and such, and that he acted rashly. But from the videos, a murder conviction doesn't seem appropriate (but a lesser punishment does).

I'm actually sympathetic towards the officer since it looks like he just had a bad day (being a cop is a shit job, if you hadn't infered it from the peanut gallery in the videos) but he did shoot someone and he does have to be punished.


Are you kidding me dude???? "WHOOPS!!! I didn't mean to shoot that hooker right in the face; I thought I was holding my god damned dick. My bad, I've just always had this weird problem with remembering what I just put in my hand and just pretend like it shouldn't make any difference instead." DURRR

Do you really think that defending somebody on the grounds that they are so oblivious to MAYBE pulling the trigger to a gun or not is actually a good idea? Especially when that somebody's ENTIRE purpose is about enforcing the law and to keep civil order??

What a fucking defense. "Well... we just didn't train this guy well enough for him to realize when he's holding a gun while he's working." Oh well, shit happens right?? Just move on already, who cares about those little details.

The reasons that someone desires to be an officer are precisely the same reasons why they shouldn't be allowed to become one. They develop a false sense of authority over others and start believing they are above the law. That mentality is exactly what incidents like this are born from.

My father has been a private investigator for decades, and you wouldn't believe some of the fucked up things that happens to innocent people because of how twisted and evil some of our police officers really are. This kind of shit happens ALL-THE-TIME and it makes me scared for my life sometimes.

He's in the middle of writing a book about how corrupt our judicial system is. While he's writing he'll sometimes have to call me and vent while he's crying his eyes out and cursing the system to death for some of the shit he is recalling that's happened in the past to GOOD PEOPLE.

Imagine you're that kids parent sitting at home. You get a call from the local precinct to be informed that your son was killed by some overly-cocky fuck with a gun in uniform that can't assess the situation OR any consequences for his actions... and to realize that the system people like him represent are this countries LAW ENFORCEMENT!!!

GOOD JOB MISTER SHINY BADGE MAN, WAY TO KEEP THE BAD GUYS OFF THE STREET! I WANT TO GROW UP TO BE JUST LIKE YOU AND MAKE PEOPLE QUIVER AT THE SIGHT ME JUST TO THINK THAT THE NEXT ONE COULD BE THEM! =D! =D!
dogabutila
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States1438 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-03 07:53:34
July 03 2010 07:52 GMT
#151
Some of you guys are fucking idiots. Policemans are bad cause they gave you a ticket right? SO THEY MUST BE BAD CAUSE THEY SHOT SOMEBODY TOO.


The tasers the cops use here are bright yellow and a different shape (more blocky, trigger also feels different). Why? because studies done by my local department have shown that under stressful situations, tasers and guns can be mistaken for each other if they are too similar. Theres a visual indicator here so that cops can easily tell which is which. Why don't all departments do what mine does? Cause this is the third richest county in the nation. Our county PD has more funding then some state departments do. We are on the bleeding edge of LE.

Pretty much, here or LAPD are the trailblazers. LA cause they need the stuff to keep up. Us because we are rich as shit and can afford new toys.


// How much training do you think police even have with shooting? and with the taser?
Baller Fanclub || CheAse Fanclub || Scarlett Fanclub || LJD FIGHTING!
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-03 08:06:46
July 03 2010 08:06 GMT
#152
People shouldn't lump police officers all together, personally i judge them based on precinct.

A police officer is cocky? People who attracted to that kind of job generally are, type A personalities, you don't want a police officer not to be a go getter.

You also need to remember the guy is dammed if he's convicted dammed if he's not. The police are human they make mistakes in stressful situations.

People get wrongly arrested and then instead of sorting it out at the station they cause even more commotion putting more stress on the officers.

Also you may quiver at the police but i don't and will never they are to respected and held to a standard, not feared or hated it is people fearing and hating that make situations worse.
Bananas
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Sweden98 Posts
July 03 2010 08:06 GMT
#153
Some people shouldn't be cops i guess.
"terrible terrible damage"
Number41
Profile Joined August 2008
United States130 Posts
July 03 2010 08:08 GMT
#154
IMO, unless the jury hangs on the charge, the officer will be convicted.

I've watched the video and I am very happy I am not a juror in this case. It could range from second degree murder to involuntary manslaughter.

Just guessing, but if the jury remains in deliberation much longer, it won't be a murder conviction. I just hope some imbecile on the jury doesn't hold out on murder and force the jury to acquit.

The prosecution should have asked for just voluntary or involuntary manslaughter, rather than throwing murder in there. But with a jury pool as exists in LA, maybe they will get murder.
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
July 03 2010 08:09 GMT
#155
On July 03 2010 17:06 Bananas wrote:
Some people shouldn't be cops i guess.

Nope not everyone is qualified, there really are villains in officer uniforms but thankfully in this country they aren't the majority, there are also people who don't have the stomach for that kind of work and make mistakes due to it.
Number41
Profile Joined August 2008
United States130 Posts
July 03 2010 08:19 GMT
#156
Tasers should not be standard issue. They are very dangerous weapons, often a subject of abuse, and a crutch for lazy police.

If they are used they should be kept on the opposite side of the belt from the gun.
Zidane
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States1692 Posts
July 03 2010 08:19 GMT
#157
You would think that if you were a cop you would make damn well sure you knew which part of your belt had a GUN and which had a taser.
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-03 08:32:00
July 03 2010 08:30 GMT
#158
On July 03 2010 17:19 Number41 wrote:
Tasers should not be standard issue. They are very dangerous weapons, often a subject of abuse, and a crutch for lazy police.

If they are used they should be kept on the opposite side of the belt from the gun.

Yes tazers are subject to abuse, just due to the part where if you taze someone it's pretty easy to make them complaint, vs having to hold them down or w.e while you cuff/ziptie them then they claim you used excessive force when you were arresting them. As short term tazering causes no dmg it's seen as an effective short cut to the worried some police officer.

On July 03 2010 17:19 Zidane wrote:
You would think that if you were a cop you would make damn well sure you knew which part of your belt had a GUN and which had a taser.

You would think you would remember that you have your wallet in your pants already as you run around in the morning almost late for work as you looking for your wallet.
Zidane
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States1692 Posts
July 03 2010 08:33 GMT
#159
Actually no, because a wallet is not a GUN (caps for emphasis).
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-03 10:15:43
July 03 2010 08:38 GMT
#160
On July 03 2010 17:33 Zidane wrote:
Actually no, because a wallet is not a GUN (caps for emphasis).

but stress is stress and peoples minds are hardly reliable in terms of remembering.

On July 03 2010 17:08 Number41 wrote:
IMO, unless the jury hangs on the charge, the officer will be convicted.

I've watched the video and I am very happy I am not a juror in this case. It could range from second degree murder to involuntary manslaughter.

Just guessing, but if the jury remains in deliberation much longer, it won't be a murder conviction. I just hope some imbecile on the jury doesn't hold out on murder and force the jury to acquit.

The prosecution should have asked for just voluntary or involuntary manslaughter, rather than throwing murder in there. But with a jury pool as exists in LA, maybe they will get murder.

It's likely they are pushing for murder because he was a police officer, usually officers aren't treated so kindly in court, they are held to a much stricter standard.
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