Video of the shooting followed by a rather long interview of the girl who recorded it with her camera
Edit: Thanks to hideo for finding a second, better video
$25 Million Lawsuit Announced In BART Shooting
An Oakland attorney representing the family of a man slain by a Bay Area Rapid Transit police officer early New Year's Day said Sunday that they will file a $25 million lawsuit against BART.
Lawyer John Burris said at a news conference that he planned to file the claim against the transit agency in the shooting death of 22-year Oscar Grant of Hayward within a week.
Burris on Sunday called the shooting intentional and said he would ask prosecutors to seek criminal charges against the officer. He reiterated that Grant, who witnesses said was lying on the ground waiting to be handcuffed, posed no threat when he was fatally shot around 2:15 a.m. Thursday.
"He was not doing anything of a threatening nature to the officer," Burris said.
Home video, provided to CBS 5 on Saturday by 19-year-old witness Kristin Vargas, would seem to support the contention that Grant was laying on his stomach with his hands behind him on a train platform when a single shot was fired by a BART officer.
BART spokesman Jim Allison said the officer's gun went off while police were trying to restrain Grant at BART's Fruitvale station in Oakland, and that Grant was not cuffed.
At least four BART officers had responded to the station to reports of a fight on a train that Grant was on. That train was stopped to let the officers break up the supposed brawl.
Burris said he had interviewed witnesses and viewed the home video of the incident and vehemently disagreed with any notion that the officer's gun accidently discharged.
"This was an intentional pulling of the trigger," he told reporters. "It was an intentional act."
Burris said the bullet entered Grant's back and ricocheted to his lung area, killing him almost immediately.
The unidentified officer is on administrative leave, while the Alameda County District Attorney's Office conducts an investigation.
Meantime, Grant's family has scheduled a memorial service at 11 a.m. Wednesday at Palma Ceia Baptist Church at 28605 Ruus Road in Hayward.
Family members on Sunday remembered Grant as being a loving father of a 4-year-old daughter, a hard worker and a sports enthusiast.
accidental discharge? that makes no kind of sense! why would a cop have a gun trained on a guy who is on his belly with his hands cuffed behind his back? either the lawyer is lying or the cops are, probably cops, because even if the guy wasn't cuffed, that doesn't warrant pulling a gun on a person for such a petty crime.
"loving father", "hard worker" and "sports enthusiast" all sound like cover for the fact that this Grant character was clearly a violent sociopath. I'm sure he had it coming.
On January 05 2009 12:19 relaxxl wrote: Sounds like an accident to me.
you serious...?
Why would the Police officer just shoot him? There are a lot of different things that could have happened, it's ignorant to jump to conclusions.
EDIT:
On January 05 2009 12:10 ShaperofDreams wrote: accidental discharge? that makes no kind of sense! why would a cop have a gun trained on a guy who is on his belly with his hands cuffed behind his back?
On January 05 2009 12:19 relaxxl wrote: Sounds like an accident to me.
you serious...?
Why would the Police officer just shoot him? There are a lot of different things that could have happened, it's ignorant to jump to conclusions.
I may have overstepped my bounds a bit. I watched the video and it did look like an accident. However... The cop should still be given criminal charges for being a fucken idiot and discharging the gun.
On January 05 2009 12:10 ShaperofDreams wrote: accidental discharge? that makes no kind of sense! why would a cop have a gun trained on a guy who is on his belly with his hands cuffed behind his back?
On January 05 2009 12:25 GeneralStan wrote: "loving father", "hard worker" and "sports enthusiast" all sound like cover for the fact that this Grant character was clearly a violent sociopath. I'm sure he had it coming.
That's just stupid. I may be wrong, but we aren't even sure if the man was handcuffed or restrained. Secondly, I am quite sure that if they had a reason to make this man lie on the ground, it's standard procedure to cover the man their gun until he is no longer a threat. We know nothing about what happened or if they had reason to believe he was dangerous.
On January 05 2009 12:32 Powerpill wrote: The cop should at least be charged with Involuntary manslaughter..
I think manslaughter is when a person causes the death of an individual by their actions; but the persons actions need to require no regard for human life. I don't think you could charge this officer with voluntary manslaughter, but I think a case can be made for involuntary as a result of his recklessness. Even there though, no one has any idea what happened yet.
On January 05 2009 12:31 Divinek wrote: I don't think it really matters if it was an accident or not. The guy's still dead
Actually, it does matter. It's the difference between murder or potential manslaughter.
The title of this thread is so biased lol. Should be changed to "Metro Policeman MERCILESSLY BUTCHERS innocent rider." That way people know what your opinion on this is before they ever open it. Ofc you could also change it to "Bisu vs Jaedong vs Savior Holiday FFA," that usually never fails to increase readership.
Kind of fucked up that the guy had to die for no reason though, I haven't seen the video so I'm not going to judge anything. I saw this on the news, but their opinion was neutral as to who was at fault.
On January 05 2009 12:52 Salv wrote: I may be wrong, but we aren't even sure if the man was handcuffed or restrained. Secondly, I am quite sure that if they had a reason to make this man lie on the ground, it's standard procedure to cover the man their gun until he is no longer a threat. We know nothing about what happened or if they had reason to believe he was dangerous.
I disagree. Let me tell you why.
1.) the original post clearly states whether he was handcuffed or restrained.
2.) I am pretty sure it isn't standard procedure to cover someone lying on the ground waiting to be handcuffed with your gun, with the safety off. Maybe in particularily dangerous situations, but otherwise that is just ridiculous overkill that I never want to see.
3.) We know plenty about what happened. There is a video, no? (I didn't watch it because I don't want to see a guy get shot, but shouldn't a video show us what happened..?)
On January 05 2009 12:19 relaxxl wrote: Sounds like an accident to me.
you serious...?
I think it was an accident as well, did you really think the guy shot the person on purpose in front of several other police officers in broad daylight?
The title of this thread is rediculous by the way, way to assume what happened, you can't see shit on that video.
On January 05 2009 12:52 Salv wrote: That's just stupid. I may be wrong, but we aren't even sure if the man was handcuffed or restrained. Secondly, I am quite sure that if they had a reason to make this man lie on the ground, it's standard procedure to cover the man their gun until he is no longer a threat. We know nothing about what happened or if they had reason to believe he was dangerous.
Actually we know a fair amount. I watched the video, and I can tell you right now that he was handcuffed. No question about that. Before saying that you know nothing, watch the video.
On January 05 2009 12:19 relaxxl wrote: Sounds like an accident to me.
you serious...?
I think it was an accident as well, did you really think the guy shot the person on purpose in front of several other police officers in broad daylight?
The man was on the ground with his hands behind his back, there is obviously a reason for that and he had done something warranting at least an arrest, so he must have been dangerous at one point in time meriting the officer to have his gun out. The details as to what happened before the shot was fired are omitted, leading me to believe that the "victim" might not be all that the OP describes him as.
On January 05 2009 12:19 relaxxl wrote: Sounds like an accident to me.
you serious...?
I think it was an accident as well, did you really think the guy shot the person on purpose in front of several other police officers in broad daylight?
Do you think that never happens?
Yeah in a situation where an officer is threatened by a knife or something like that sure, but this is different. I definately think it's more likely to be an accident than a police officer shooting a cuffed person for the hell of it in this case.
edit: Oh apparently he wasn't cuffed yet, couldn't see it in the video. Why the hell would someone argue in this thread that he was cuffed while he wasn't.
On January 05 2009 12:59 travis wrote: I disagree. Let me tell you why.
1.) the original post clearly states whether he was handcuffed or restrained.
2.) I am pretty sure it isn't standard procedure to cover someone lying on the ground waiting to be handcuffed with your gun, with the safety off. Maybe in particularily dangerous situations, but otherwise that is just ridiculous overkill that I never want to see.
3.) We know plenty about what happened. There is a video, no? (I didn't watch it because I don't want to see a guy get shot, but shouldn't a video show us what happened..?)
1. OK, he wasn't handcuffed.
2. I think in this situation, it may have been standard procedure. Like I said, I am not sure and you said you aren't either. I think if we were to try to distinguish whether or no the officer was justified having his gun out, we need someone to find out what procedure is. I'm Canadian, so maybe it's a bit different here, but I was always under the impression that if an officer feels your dangerous enough to want you on your belly, instead of just handcuffing you while you stand, he is justified in taking out his gun to cover you.
3. The video is mostly a woman talking to an interviewer, recalling what she thought happened, why it happened etc. I skipped ahead quite a bit, but the woman isn't a reliable source for facts (only opinion; except for clear-cut things, like whether he was on his stomach. This woman says he wasn't a threat. Well, who the hell is she to judge?) Also, the video itself is just a camcorder or camera phone it looks like. It's not very clear what's happening.
On January 05 2009 13:02 CDRdude wrote:
Actually we know a fair amount. I watched the video, and I can tell you right now that he was handcuffed. No question about that. Before saying that you know nothing, watch the video.
Oh yeah? He was handcuffed?
How about this:
On January 05 2009 12:02 Aca wrote: He reiterated that Grant, who witnesses said was lying on the ground waiting to be handcuffed, posed no threat when he was fatally shot around 2:15 a.m. Thursday.
BART spokesman Jim Allison said the officer's gun went off while police were trying to restrain Grant at BART's Fruitvale station in Oakland, and that Grant was not cuffed.
On January 05 2009 14:30 hideo wrote: It's pretty incredible how incompetent cops can be when it comes to gun discipline/safety.
There are a lot of videos floating around showing accidental discharges during an arrest.
What are you talking about.
It's incredibly unlikely for a police officer to shoot you while they arrest you. Unless you pose a danger to the officer, you aren't likely to see their gun out. Further more, if they pull out their gun it is for their safety and the safety of those around them.
Incompetent cops my ass. Most police officers role model citizens. They're not the smartest, fittest, or most enviable people around but they believe what they enforce, and they do their damn best to uphold the law.
This seems like it could have been an accident. A real shame, and changes should be made so that this is even less likely to happen again, but this lawsuit is just people looking for money. Worst of all, it stirs up attitudes like the one above.
On January 05 2009 14:30 hideo wrote: It's pretty incredible how incompetent cops can be when it comes to gun discipline/safety.
There are a lot of videos floating around showing accidental discharges during an arrest.
What are you talking about.
It's incredibly unlikely for a police officer to shoot you while they arrest you. Unless you pose a danger to the officer, you aren't likely to see their gun out. Further more, if they pull out their gun it is for their safety and the safety of those around them.
Incompetent cops my ass. Most police officers role model citizens. They're not the smartest, fittest, or most enviable people around but they believe what they enforce, and they do their damn best to uphold the law.
This seems like it could have been an accident. A real shame, and changes should be made so that this is even less likely to happen again, but this lawsuit is just people looking for money. Worst of all, it stirs up attitudes like the one above.
Agreed with this. 99.99% of arrests will be made without incident, I'm sure thousands, maybe even tens or hundreds of thousands every day. Then one incident happens, which we DON'T even have the full details on, and you run into incredibly ignorant comments like hideo's.
I don't care what profession you're looking at, you're always going to have bad apples ruining the rest. I personally believe the vast, vast majority of cops are competent and do great service to the areas they oversee. I give them even MORE credit seeing as they provide an invaluable service but still have to put up with a lot of shitheads and their negative outlook on what they do, and knowing that they need to have clear judgement and make accurate split second decisions daily otherwise they'll lose their entire career, or worse, with one single mistake.
Wow, the article never mentions that the situation is 4 officers fending off a big angry mob. I'm surprised only 1 person was shot. Look at how many times those black guys try to sneak up on the cops; they had to form a wagon circle, jeez.
Maybe if those idiots stopped trying to be badasses and trying to jump the cops again, it wouldnt be so chaotic. The person holder the camera seriously WTF? I gotcha motherfucka?
On January 05 2009 15:48 fanatacist wrote: God damn that is some poor annoying camera work.
Yeah, the professional camerawoman responsible for it should lose her job for not paying attention to the recording details during such a calm and peaceful situation [/sarcasm]
On January 05 2009 15:48 fanatacist wrote: God damn that is some poor annoying camera work.
Yeah, the professional camerawoman responsible for it should lose her job for not paying attention to the recording details during such a calm and peaceful situation [/sarcasm]
Clearly my post was indicating that I expect professionalism in this situation and wasn't just a general complaint about the erratic nature of the video. You are very perceptive and must be of high intelligence.
Man. Sad event. I honestly feel bad for both individuals involved (killed and cop). However, I have a deep hatred for the girl right now. In the video, she sounded like she was fulfilled because the cop was on camera ("I GOT IN YOU ON CAMERA" or something along those lines). For those of you who actually watched the interview (I only watched part of it because she is a total fag), she starts laughing and brushing her hair as if this was just an opportunity for her to grab attention and not a criminal case.
Sorry if that was off tangent, but that chick just pissed me off.
On January 05 2009 16:09 redtooth wrote: Man. Sad event. I honestly feel bad for both individuals involved (killed and cop). However, I have a deep hatred for the girl right now. In the video, she sounded like she was fulfilled because the cop was on camera ("I GOT IN YOU ON CAMERA" or something along those lines). For those of you who actually watched the interview (I only watched part of it because she is a total fag), she starts laughing and brushing her hair as if this was just an opportunity for her to grab attention and not a criminal case.
Sorry if that was off tangent, but that chick just pissed me off.
You're not the only one who thought that. 100% attention whore.
On January 05 2009 12:31 Divinek wrote: I don't think it really matters if it was an accident or not. The guy's still dead
Actually, it does matter. It's the difference between murder or potential manslaughter.
A cop is never going to get charged for murder in a scenario like that unless he straight up confesses to it.
Well, we know one thing. And that is guns (glocks) don't go off by themselves. So I don't see how it can be anything but either manslaughter or murder.
fucking filthy cops it's not the first and not the last time,that cunts kills inocent people with purpose or by accident if this was greece half of the city would burn now,they just dont forgive this kind of things
burn all filthy cops.
and here in croatia cop killed older guy just becouse he parked in his way and didnt responded imidiately on his warning killed by jumping on his stomach in front of his daughter how brutal can u be for that ...
Innocent is a strong word, resisting arrest and threatening cops with a mob is by no means innocent behavior.
What about the police officer in that pic risking his life to restore order? That guy is probably an ordinary guy with wife and kids, have you thought about that? What the hell has throwing Molotovs at innocent cops to do with justice, especially in a case where you can point out who the culprit is.
I'm much more willing to suspect the cop of mishandling a gun than murdering someone in front of a ton of witnesses, and I'm appalled anyone thinks otherwise.
I've had guns go off before I expected them to. In all cases, it was a new gun and pointed downrange and as far from being pointed at another person as it could possibly be, and the trigger pull simply wasn't as far as I thought, with the result that I wasn't as accurate as I could have been. Shit happens.
Obviously, I'm a lot more surprised it happened with a gun the cop should have been familiar with and during a time when an infinitely greater care was required (when the gun was pointed at someone). He's going to be in deep shit for fucking up like that, but I can't call it murder.
And that pic posted by our Croatian member is a great example of force escalation. Way to prevent police brutality genius!
All the people who have not seen the clip yet, plz stop speculating. Those who don't want to see a guy get shot: You don't see anything really - nothing like you would imagine from the descrition.
What you could see in the video was a mess. The police got some guys lined up, one of them sitting. The police repeatedly telling them to sit down. Then shouting and chaos starts. People from outside shouting at the police for using more excessive force to get the situation under control. Two or so guys walk up to the police (one of them was the guy getting shot). It looked like they were just talking with the cops, but you can't really tell since it's so loud. The officer got his gun out already by this time, as he was trying to cover the other officers in his back who were cuffing up the people they pulled from the train. There are only 3 or 4 people standing before the girl at a time, but you can tell from the shouts from the back and the overall noise, that the officer was facing a crowd of people shouting at them (nigger this nigger that, motherfucker blabla gangstertalk). A couple seconds before the gun wents off you can see a police officer stepping back into line with the others, putting back his stick on the belt (because he didn't think he'd need it obviously). Then the camera turns to where the officer came from and you see the guy lying on his back, with both hands under him (so I think we can assume he's handcuffed). He's not lying flat down though, for whatever reason and I couldn't tell. The camera goes back to the right a little and then you hear the gunshot. You can't really see him getting shot because there is another police officer between the camera and the guy and you can't tell which officer it was really, but most likely the guy who had the gun out the entire time (and from what I got, the only officer who got his gun out at all). The crowd goes crazy shouting wise over the act and you can hear the girl that was holding the camera repeatedly shouting "I got you motherfuckers". She then gets back into the train. After that the interview starts - you can't really tell if she's with the lawyer or a guy from the tv station. The interview then unfolds some other stuff that you couldn't see in the video like that the guy was shocked after his gun went off and that he was rather young looking etc. ... but the interview in his whole was really biased against the police officers.
Imho the police officer was nervus, under stress and had the gun out the entire time. I believe that he (under above told circumstances) accidentially pulled the trigger. I know from my time in the military that when you have a gun or rifle out, your trigger finger should always point in the direction of the gun and never be around the trigger the whole time until really necessary. Because after time goes by you loose the feeling for the trigger, making it more and more likely to accidentally pulling it. From what I could see the police officer did not do that. Seems to me like he will have to face a charge of invoulantary manslaugter - wether it was a threatening situation or not (you can only assume from the video - or at least I feel not qualified enough to answer that question) plays only a minor role. In the end he shot a handcuffed guy that was lying on the ground on his back. I believe he didn't mean to, but he did shoot him.
On January 05 2009 13:05 naonao wrote: The man was on the ground with his hands behind his back, there is obviously a reason for that and he had done something warranting at least an arrest, so he must have been dangerous at one point in time meriting the officer to have his gun out. The details as to what happened before the shot was fired are omitted, leading me to believe that the "victim" might not be all that the OP describes him as.
Details as to what happened before the shot isnt necessary. The man was lying on his stomach waiting to be cuffed, he looked no threat to me at all. Regardless of what happened before the shot the fact that the man was still killed is still there. However it did look like an accident i dont see the reason why the police had to have had his gun out on someone lying on the floor waiting to be cuffed. Not to mention he had like 4 other police buddies around him. Looks to me like they need some retraining
I think the big mistake was that officer pulling the gun out the whole time. Had he not pulled the gun, this wouldnt have happened. That is his sin.
Now he'll face the consequences of his irresponsability. Im not saying its a small crime. He killed a person, but from what i've read here and from the video, i think it did was an accident.
watched the video... and a few more bits on the internet. It looks like the cops need to have their gun out at that situation, not like they can calm down the situation without when there are a few big mob around and try to settle a fight.
One question, why did this guy (along with his friend I assume) just walked up to the police? The police was only dealing with people along the wall or thereabout, but they just randomly feel like talking to cops?
and I agree that he was on the floor and waiting to be cuffed for a reason, probably not bad enough to shoot him though, still probably an accident.
Wow, this is unfortunate story, but the fact that only the "bad apple" cases are highly sensationalised by the media paints a biased picture of law enforcement.
On January 05 2009 14:30 hideo wrote: It's pretty incredible how incompetent cops can be when it comes to gun discipline/safety.
There are a lot of videos floating around showing accidental discharges during an arrest.
What are you talking about.
It's incredibly unlikely for a police officer to shoot you while they arrest you. Unless you pose a danger to the officer, you aren't likely to see their gun out. Further more, if they pull out their gun it is for their safety and the safety of those around them.
Incompetent cops my ass. Most police officers role model citizens. They're not the smartest, fittest, or most enviable people around but they believe what they enforce, and they do their damn best to uphold the law.
I'm talking about incompetence specifically with respect to gun handling. It's a really big deal in police training, but it is still sometimes a problem. I'm sure that they're trying their hardest, and have the right moral grounding, etc. etc., but the truth of the matter is that some still appear woefully undertrained in the proper handling of firearms under stress, as can be seen in the news.
On January 05 2009 14:30 hideo wrote: It's pretty incredible how incompetent cops can be when it comes to gun discipline/safety.
There are a lot of videos floating around showing accidental discharges during an arrest.
What are you talking about.
It's incredibly unlikely for a police officer to shoot you while they arrest you. Unless you pose a danger to the officer, you aren't likely to see their gun out. Further more, if they pull out their gun it is for their safety and the safety of those around them.
Incompetent cops my ass. Most police officers role model citizens. They're not the smartest, fittest, or most enviable people around but they believe what they enforce, and they do their damn best to uphold the law.
This seems like it could have been an accident. A real shame, and changes should be made so that this is even less likely to happen again, but this lawsuit is just people looking for money. Worst of all, it stirs up attitudes like the one above.
Agreed. Cept I'd rather keep it the same way than change the rules so that officers are put more in danger. It's a simple concept—don't be a dipshit and you won't have a gun to your back when being arrested. This would have never happened if the kid didnt get on the ground right away and there wasn't an angry mob around him.
Now, because of those assholes, some poor dude's probably going to lose his job so that the BART saves face.
What a lot of people who live in the Americas don't realize is that other countries are not as free as theirs. GongKyuckTerran is perfectly normal in his hatred for police, I am from the balkans too, and it is very common for a policeman to blatantly extort you. (as in, pulling you over and demanding money, if you say you did nothing wrong, he breaks your headlight ans says "your headlight is broken". or something else cheesey like that) also, Croatia has one of Europes biggest criminal underground and many officials are corrupt.
I think it was an accident but this video is making me doubt.
I remember an episode of cops in which they tasered an innocent bystander 'cause he approached asking why they were arresting his brother, he was calm and not aggressive. It confused me because that episode (to me) clearly showed police brutality.
I'm guessing this thread will make it to like 9 pages before it becomes a shit heap of arguing and trolling.
As for the video, its very illegible and not even worth the watch. As far as the crime, the cop fucked up and should be punished. As far as the scenario, its standard to have the weapon drawn (havent you ever seen COPS?), especially since there seems to be a lot of ruckus and people around yelling 'fuck the police' and what not. as far as the thread tl;dr
I don't see how anyone can watch that 2nd video and believe it's an accident. It's one thing if a cop has his gun trained on a suspect while another officer is making an arrest and it goes off on accident. It's another thing if you're the arresting officer and you're struggling with a person and you pull your gun out. There's absolutely NO reason to pull your gun out in that situation and it hinders your ability to handcuff them. That fact, plus the fact that the gun went off almost immediately after he pulled it out, suggest to me that he believed at the time that this was an appropriate level of force.
On January 05 2009 12:10 ShaperofDreams wrote: accidental discharge? that makes no kind of sense! why would a cop have a gun trained on a guy who is on his belly with his hands cuffed behind his back? either the lawyer is lying or the cops are, probably cops, because even if the guy wasn't cuffed, that doesn't warrant pulling a gun on a person for such a petty crime.
=p i was wondering when this would hit the forums. If you watch all the vids closely you notice that he isn't cuffed before he was shot but going to be also a percentage of the officers had either a gun or taser dawn it's hard to make out it seems accidental discharge to me.
Routy drunk men fighting on bart i was actually wondering how long it would take until something like this would happen because bart extends their service to compensate for all the late night drinkers during new years and just about every year there is a fight =(
I'm confident hell be charge with manslaughter not murder
On January 05 2009 12:25 GeneralStan wrote: "loving father", "hard worker" and "sports enthusiast" all sound like cover for the fact that this Grant character was clearly a violent sociopath. I'm sure he had it coming.
Lol yeah getting arrested for brawling on bart and being drunk on new years. Also nice picture of him with a tear shaped mark tat below the eye doesn't scream gang or wanna be although i could be mistaken might just be a bad place to have a birth mark that looks like that.
I find them suing for 25 mil which bart def doesn't have is stupid popel are greedy or vengeful hard to tell. Protest don't ride bart because they already have reduced service compared to a couple years ago and now we gonna sue them.
Oh yeah if you don't know bart police are real policemen even campus police like Standford police are fully trained police officers after a fight is being broken up it would not be unusual to have a weapon out while subduing the suspects. Imo it'll just pass in like one week like how a police officer killed a err retarted man tasering him while trying to subdue him but he just wouldn't give.
Wow seriously some of the comments people make in this thread about police bashing is just off the cuff. Frankly at least in most parts of California police officers are to be trusted atlest now... and are unless your a gangbanger or some random shit like that most people have confidence in the police it's a necessary part of governing body that people are put into line when they are out of line.
Can we please keep the cops die fuck cops i hope that guy gets shot bull shit out of this forum. Really all you are doing is breeding hate maybe i should hope you accidently knock over a large object a kill a little boy so then that boys family can wish someone accidently causes your death. For serious just stop that bull shit troll ball busting crap and stop posting when you're high and paranoid.
On January 07 2009 20:07 IzzyCraft wrote: Wow seriously some of the comments people make in this thread about police bashing is just off the cuff. Frankly at least in most parts of California police officers are to be trusted atlest now... and are unless your a gangbanger or some random shit like that most people have confidence in the police it's a necessary part of governing body that people are put into line when they are out of line.
Can we please keep the cops die fuck cops i hope that guy gets shot bull shit out of this forum. Really all you are doing is breeding hate maybe i should hope you accidently knock over a large object a kill a little boy so then that boys family can wish someone accidently causes your death. For serious just stop that bull shit troll ball busting crap and stop posting when you're high and paranoid.
I can't understand what you're saying.
Oh, about the guns drawn thing. If you had a gun, and there was a huge and fairly close group of people around you, you're saying you would risk a few of them running at you without a gun in your hands, and then taking it from you and shooting you? Really? If there was a group of people yelling obscenities and telling me to die, I'd probably have my gun out too? Have you people forgotten what people are like?
On January 07 2009 20:07 IzzyCraft wrote: Wow seriously some of the comments people make in this thread about police bashing is just off the cuff. Frankly at least in most parts of California police officers are to be trusted atlest now... and are unless your a gangbanger or some random shit like that most people have confidence in the police it's a necessary part of governing body that people are put into line when they are out of line.
Can we please keep the cops die fuck cops i hope that guy gets shot bull shit out of this forum. Really all you are doing is breeding hate maybe i should hope you accidently knock over a large object a kill a little boy so then that boys family can wish someone accidently causes your death. For serious just stop that bull shit troll ball busting crap and stop posting when you're high and paranoid.
I can't understand what you're saying.
Oh, about the guns drawn thing. If you had a gun, and there was a huge and fairly close group of people around you, you're saying you would risk a few of them running at you without a gun in your hands, and then taking it from you and shooting you? Really? If there was a group of people yelling obscenities and telling me to die, I'd probably have my gun out too? Have you people forgotten what people are like?
There was a 2nd video posted at the end of page 3.
Some people are horrible T_T bah too bad police men have to carry guns with the option of tasers because i don't wanna be the guy with a taser with someone pull a gun on you esp because tasers make your muscles clench so taser a man with a gun is asking him to shoot randomly.
Well about above just in short stop the police bashing unless you'd have trouble with police without you being a problem and you live in California cause really if your clumping everyone that shares a title in one spot it's bais responses that don't blong here i mean you can say my fucking government sucks and it can be true where you say but when you say fucking politicians it's just rude. I mean you can't bitch about the police with your smoking weed lol it's just stupid...
I'm using a Wii to type t-t takes forever
2nd video at the end of page 3 lol hey hey thats fucked up you're obviously telling the man to get up but hes just being a limp and difficult
In context you are working a late night shift during new years and you have to deal with drunk men fighting D: Sadly enought he majory of people that suck at life ride bart lol i was forced to for awhile and dear god some of these people
On January 07 2009 20:07 IzzyCraft wrote: Wow seriously some of the comments people make in this thread about police bashing is just off the cuff. Frankly at least in most parts of California police officers are to be trusted atlest now... and are unless your a gangbanger or some random shit like that most people have confidence in the police it's a necessary part of governing body that people are put into line when they are out of line.
Can we please keep the cops die fuck cops i hope that guy gets shot bull shit out of this forum. Really all you are doing is breeding hate maybe i should hope you accidently knock over a large object a kill a little boy so then that boys family can wish someone accidently causes your death. For serious just stop that bull shit troll ball busting crap and stop posting when you're high and paranoid.
I can't understand what you're saying.
Oh, about the guns drawn thing. If you had a gun, and there was a huge and fairly close group of people around you, you're saying you would risk a few of them running at you without a gun in your hands, and then taking it from you and shooting you? Really? If there was a group of people yelling obscenities and telling me to die, I'd probably have my gun out too? Have you people forgotten what people are like?
There was a 2nd video posted at the end of page 3.
People are alot more corropertive when they have a gun at their face Whats the saying "You can get more of what you want with a kind word and a gun than you can with just a kind word" Although i think its al capone who said it but it works both ways.
I wouldn't think the vid is wrong if you minuz the firearm discharge i'd think it's pretty normal for breaking up a fight and having to arrest a group of people.
On January 07 2009 20:07 IzzyCraft wrote: Wow seriously some of the comments people make in this thread about police bashing is just off the cuff. Frankly at least in most parts of California police officers are to be trusted atlest now... and are unless your a gangbanger or some random shit like that most people have confidence in the police it's a necessary part of governing body that people are put into line when they are out of line.
Can we please keep the cops die fuck cops i hope that guy gets shot bull shit out of this forum. Really all you are doing is breeding hate maybe i should hope you accidently knock over a large object a kill a little boy so then that boys family can wish someone accidently causes your death. For serious just stop that bull shit troll ball busting crap and stop posting when you're high and paranoid.
I can't understand what you're saying.
Oh, about the guns drawn thing. If you had a gun, and there was a huge and fairly close group of people around you, you're saying you would risk a few of them running at you without a gun in your hands, and then taking it from you and shooting you? Really? If there was a group of people yelling obscenities and telling me to die, I'd probably have my gun out too? Have you people forgotten what people are like?
Are you f******* kidding me? People telling you to die? Have you watched the video? He was shot by a cold blooded assassin. The guy was cooperating, he had my age, had a kid, was drunk and got into a fight, is that enough to deserve to be shot in the back while you wait to be handcuffed?
Yes, fuck the police. When you give people the authority to arrest, beat and shoot other people, you're bound to see excess. Now the smart asses in here who will try to use this quote and say "Oh, so we don't have police anymore? What would we do then?". I'm not saying I have a solution or anything, I'm just pointing out that with our current system, shit like this is bound to happen. What's worse is cops follow orders without any judgement and become part of the machine which is slowly killing free speach in the western world. Yes, fuck the police.
On January 05 2009 12:02 Aca wrote: $25 Million Lawsuit Announced In BART Shooting
An Oakland attorney representing the family of a man slain by a Bay Area Rapid Transit police officer early New Year's Day said Sunday that they will file a $25 million lawsuit against BART.
Nice ! The lawyer will get 24.9 million, and the dead niggas family gets the rest.
I also clearly remember Boston cops so fucking incompetent that they killed a man they had handcuffed by causing massive hemmorages in his arms with the way they carried him around.
You can't give a gun and a badge to power hungry people with average intellect. You just can't.
Seriously some people I feel they are going to blow up a building or join a war in some small country. You don't think this man will get judgment even if he isn't prosecuted for murder the toll for manslaughter will put him out of a job and in jail for some time wtf do you think happens in a situation like this. WTF is this machine you walk about maybe you read 1984 too many times. Seriously the rebellious nature in some people maybe you should think about promoting good practices in a civilization like not fucking having a fighting on public transportation. Also what is this “our” current system Canadian justice system =!/ not equal American justice system. WTF do you think police officers are drug lords beating you for money they are people that got a fucking job leave them alone if you where a financial advisor should I want to burn you at the steak wtf is that going to accomplish. I'm getting sick of every police oriented thread having a fuck the police status in them. Who are you kidding?
On January 07 2009 20:51 frankbg wrote: I also clearly remember Boston cops so fucking incompetent that they killed a man they had handcuffed by causing massive hemmorages in his arms with the way they carried him around.
You can't give a gun and a badge to power hungry people with average intellect. You just can't.
You know the vast majority of people who are willing to do police work are type A personality you can't expect everyone to do that kind of work bad side is that personality type has subcategories in which also attracts those who shouldn't be there. They fucking go though training for 6 months and have to pass exams bart police are police not security gaurds god dam some people. Would you be willing to work as a police officer having to deal with people and work on holidays? most people would not but someone has to
Every time a police officer draws his gun he has to have just reason and have a write up after doing so a fight between more then just 2 people is just reason. A funny thing about guns for them to work you have to take them off of the safety and another funny thing about them is they can go off while the safety is off very easily. Maybe if the police didn't need guns to guess what stop people with guns things would be better. Fuck man apparently you never seen the LA bank robbery in mid 90's with armored thugs with assault rifles just barreled though town until officers where able to get their hands on better firearms.
It is from their foes, not their friends, that cities learn the lesson of building high walls
On January 07 2009 20:07 IzzyCraft wrote: Wow seriously some of the comments people make in this thread about police bashing is just off the cuff. Frankly at least in most parts of California police officers are to be trusted atlest now... and are unless your a gangbanger or some random shit like that most people have confidence in the police it's a necessary part of governing body that people are put into line when they are out of line.
Can we please keep the cops die fuck cops i hope that guy gets shot bull shit out of this forum. Really all you are doing is breeding hate maybe i should hope you accidently knock over a large object a kill a little boy so then that boys family can wish someone accidently causes your death. For serious just stop that bull shit troll ball busting crap and stop posting when you're high and paranoid.
I can't understand what you're saying.
Oh, about the guns drawn thing. If you had a gun, and there was a huge and fairly close group of people around you, you're saying you would risk a few of them running at you without a gun in your hands, and then taking it from you and shooting you? Really? If there was a group of people yelling obscenities and telling me to die, I'd probably have my gun out too? Have you people forgotten what people are like?
Are you f******* kidding me? People telling you to die? Have you watched the video? He was shot by a cold blooded assassin. The guy was cooperating, he had my age, had a kid, was drunk and got into a fight, is that enough to deserve to be shot in the back while you wait to be handcuffed?
Yes, fuck the police. When you give people the authority to arrest, beat and shoot other people, you're bound to see excess. Now the smart asses in here who will try to use this quote and say "Oh, so we don't have police anymore? What would we do then?". I'm not saying I have a solution or anything, I'm just pointing out that with our current system, shit like this is bound to happen. What's worse is cops follow orders without any judgement and become part of the machine which is slowly killing free speach in the western world. Yes, fuck the police.
I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. See teamliquid, I told you, now do you understand? This is what some people actually think. So, if you guys were surrounded by this guy, would you have your pistols readied?
When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist.
There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.
You have watched all 3 videos and read news reports don't even think you are above which you are not.
Want me to show you a picture of a fireman throwing a baby out of a window out of context you think one thing in context you know that the bottom floors are all on fire.
A man who sits high on his horse is no taller then the man that stands firmly on the ground.
On January 07 2009 20:08 IzzyCraft wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8 Friendly tourtorial makes light about it but seriously some of the jokes are valid points...
On January 07 2009 20:07 IzzyCraft wrote: Wow seriously some of the comments people make in this thread about police bashing is just off the cuff. Frankly at least in most parts of California police officers are to be trusted atlest now... and are unless your a gangbanger or some random shit like that most people have confidence in the police it's a necessary part of governing body that people are put into line when they are out of line.
Can we please keep the cops die fuck cops i hope that guy gets shot bull shit out of this forum. Really all you are doing is breeding hate maybe i should hope you accidently knock over a large object a kill a little boy so then that boys family can wish someone accidently causes your death. For serious just stop that bull shit troll ball busting crap and stop posting when you're high and paranoid.
I can't understand what you're saying.
Oh, about the guns drawn thing. If you had a gun, and there was a huge and fairly close group of people around you, you're saying you would risk a few of them running at you without a gun in your hands, and then taking it from you and shooting you? Really? If there was a group of people yelling obscenities and telling me to die, I'd probably have my gun out too? Have you people forgotten what people are like?
Are you f******* kidding me? People telling you to die? Have you watched the video? He was shot by a cold blooded assassin. The guy was cooperating, he had my age, had a kid, was drunk and got into a fight, is that enough to deserve to be shot in the back while you wait to be handcuffed?
Yes, fuck the police. When you give people the authority to arrest, beat and shoot other people, you're bound to see excess. Now the smart asses in here who will try to use this quote and say "Oh, so we don't have police anymore? What would we do then?". I'm not saying I have a solution or anything, I'm just pointing out that with our current system, shit like this is bound to happen. What's worse is cops follow orders without any judgement and become part of the machine which is slowly killing free speach in the western world. Yes, fuck the police.
I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. See teamliquid, I told you, now do you understand? This is what some people actually think. So, if you guys were surrounded by this guy, would you have your pistols readied?
Seriously, just stop posting until you watch the 2nd video cause you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
On January 07 2009 20:07 IzzyCraft wrote: Wow seriously some of the comments people make in this thread about police bashing is just off the cuff. Frankly at least in most parts of California police officers are to be trusted atlest now... and are unless your a gangbanger or some random shit like that most people have confidence in the police it's a necessary part of governing body that people are put into line when they are out of line.
Can we please keep the cops die fuck cops i hope that guy gets shot bull shit out of this forum. Really all you are doing is breeding hate maybe i should hope you accidently knock over a large object a kill a little boy so then that boys family can wish someone accidently causes your death. For serious just stop that bull shit troll ball busting crap and stop posting when you're high and paranoid.
I can't understand what you're saying.
Oh, about the guns drawn thing. If you had a gun, and there was a huge and fairly close group of people around you, you're saying you would risk a few of them running at you without a gun in your hands, and then taking it from you and shooting you? Really? If there was a group of people yelling obscenities and telling me to die, I'd probably have my gun out too? Have you people forgotten what people are like?
Are you f******* kidding me? People telling you to die? Have you watched the video? He was shot by a cold blooded assassin. The guy was cooperating, he had my age, had a kid, was drunk and got into a fight, is that enough to deserve to be shot in the back while you wait to be handcuffed?
Yes, fuck the police. When you give people the authority to arrest, beat and shoot other people, you're bound to see excess. Now the smart asses in here who will try to use this quote and say "Oh, so we don't have police anymore? What would we do then?". I'm not saying I have a solution or anything, I'm just pointing out that with our current system, shit like this is bound to happen. What's worse is cops follow orders without any judgement and become part of the machine which is slowly killing free speach in the western world. Yes, fuck the police.
I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. See teamliquid, I told you, now do you understand? This is what some people actually think. So, if you guys were surrounded by this guy, would you have your pistols readied?
Seriously, just stop posting until you watch the 2nd video cause you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
I watched the second video. It was an accident. It was pretty hard to see, but if they have to shuffle that much, I'm pretty sure he wasn't cooperating as well as he should have. If a cop tells me to get up stand and shut up, I'll do it, fast.
On January 07 2009 20:07 IzzyCraft wrote: Wow seriously some of the comments people make in this thread about police bashing is just off the cuff. Frankly at least in most parts of California police officers are to be trusted atlest now... and are unless your a gangbanger or some random shit like that most people have confidence in the police it's a necessary part of governing body that people are put into line when they are out of line.
Can we please keep the cops die fuck cops i hope that guy gets shot bull shit out of this forum. Really all you are doing is breeding hate maybe i should hope you accidently knock over a large object a kill a little boy so then that boys family can wish someone accidently causes your death. For serious just stop that bull shit troll ball busting crap and stop posting when you're high and paranoid.
I can't understand what you're saying.
Oh, about the guns drawn thing. If you had a gun, and there was a huge and fairly close group of people around you, you're saying you would risk a few of them running at you without a gun in your hands, and then taking it from you and shooting you? Really? If there was a group of people yelling obscenities and telling me to die, I'd probably have my gun out too? Have you people forgotten what people are like?
Are you f******* kidding me? People telling you to die? Have you watched the video? He was shot by a cold blooded assassin. The guy was cooperating, he had my age, had a kid, was drunk and got into a fight, is that enough to deserve to be shot in the back while you wait to be handcuffed?
Yes, fuck the police. When you give people the authority to arrest, beat and shoot other people, you're bound to see excess. Now the smart asses in here who will try to use this quote and say "Oh, so we don't have police anymore? What would we do then?". I'm not saying I have a solution or anything, I'm just pointing out that with our current system, shit like this is bound to happen. What's worse is cops follow orders without any judgement and become part of the machine which is slowly killing free speach in the western world. Yes, fuck the police.
I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. See teamliquid, I told you, now do you understand? This is what some people actually think. So, if you guys were surrounded by this guy, would you have your pistols readied?
Seriously, just stop posting until you watch the 2nd video cause you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
Watch all 3 videos and read news posts :D i hate watching the vids makes me sad because it makesit look like everyone is just the jackasses that make a circle in high school when people fight.
What gunpowder did for war, the printing press has done for the mind
On January 07 2009 20:07 IzzyCraft wrote: Wow seriously some of the comments people make in this thread about police bashing is just off the cuff. Frankly at least in most parts of California police officers are to be trusted atlest now... and are unless your a gangbanger or some random shit like that most people have confidence in the police it's a necessary part of governing body that people are put into line when they are out of line.
Can we please keep the cops die fuck cops i hope that guy gets shot bull shit out of this forum. Really all you are doing is breeding hate maybe i should hope you accidently knock over a large object a kill a little boy so then that boys family can wish someone accidently causes your death. For serious just stop that bull shit troll ball busting crap and stop posting when you're high and paranoid.
I can't understand what you're saying.
Oh, about the guns drawn thing. If you had a gun, and there was a huge and fairly close group of people around you, you're saying you would risk a few of them running at you without a gun in your hands, and then taking it from you and shooting you? Really? If there was a group of people yelling obscenities and telling me to die, I'd probably have my gun out too? Have you people forgotten what people are like?
Are you f******* kidding me? People telling you to die? Have you watched the video? He was shot by a cold blooded assassin. The guy was cooperating, he had my age, had a kid, was drunk and got into a fight, is that enough to deserve to be shot in the back while you wait to be handcuffed?
Yes, fuck the police. When you give people the authority to arrest, beat and shoot other people, you're bound to see excess. Now the smart asses in here who will try to use this quote and say "Oh, so we don't have police anymore? What would we do then?". I'm not saying I have a solution or anything, I'm just pointing out that with our current system, shit like this is bound to happen. What's worse is cops follow orders without any judgement and become part of the machine which is slowly killing free speach in the western world. Yes, fuck the police.
I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. See teamliquid, I told you, now do you understand? This is what some people actually think. So, if you guys were surrounded by this guy, would you have your pistols readied?
Seriously, just stop posting until you watch the 2nd video cause you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
I don't know what to say to this. Are you really saying it wasn't an accident? What is your qualm with me? I mean, we have to get the facts straight. Did that look intentional to you? Should we hate that guy because he's ruining free speach in the western world? I watched the second video, and it looked like he was pulling out the gun to get him to cooperate. It looked like while the police officer was propping himself up to stand straight, a shot came out. It looked to me like an accident. I guess that's just a clueless suggestion.
That was disgusting. I have alot of police officers and such in my family and I can tell you 100% they are not trained to hold a weapon on somebody who is handcuffed and has a knee in the back of there neck from a fellow officer. They don't do this because it puts the other officer at risk.
This ruined my night.
This isn't nearly as uncommon as any of you think.
On January 07 2009 21:39 AttackZerg wrote: That was disgusting. I have alot of police officers and such in my family and I can tell you 100% they are not trained to hold a weapon on somebody who is handcuffed and has a knee in the back of there neck from a fellow officer. They don't do this because it puts the other officer at risk.
This ruined my night.
This isn't nearly as uncommon as any of you think.
On January 07 2009 21:09 frankbg wrote: .... You haven't watched the video. Don't even fucking quote me. Waste of air.
I love it when people get angry. I love this sentence so much, it means so much to me. I guess I'll stop breathing now, thanks for your advice, it's a good thing that your opinion encompasses more than your immediate and primal emotions and you make sure this is the choice best for everyone, and not just the guy that is probably always the one getting held up by the cops
On January 07 2009 21:09 frankbg wrote: .... You haven't watched the video. Don't even fucking quote me. Waste of air.
Take it easy, Frank. LOL
I hate stupidity. Stupid people drive me mad, because there is no reasonning with them. They think they "know" and can't be debated with.
That guy talks about how it was justified that the officer had a gun covering that guy when it is clear on the video he is cooperating.
Seriously, EVEN IF HE WASN'T cooperating, what if the officer gets the situation wrong? What if you are defending yourself against unlawful arrest? Should you just be shot in the back?
Should anyone not willing to be arrested shot?
This guy makes no sense, kinda ironic considering his nickname is Element)LoGiC
On January 07 2009 21:24 IzzyCraft wrote: What gunpowder did for war, the printing press has done for the mind
On January 07 2009 20:56 IzzyCraft wrote: It is from their foes, not their friends, that cities learn the lesson of building high walls
On January 07 2009 21:12 IzzyCraft wrote: When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist.
There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.
In such conditions it's fucking obvious that a gun should be on a safety, and if it is, how can it "accidentally discharge". It's so hard for me to accept such things... meaningless death, poor guy. God bless his soul.
On January 07 2009 21:09 frankbg wrote: .... You haven't watched the video. Don't even fucking quote me. Waste of air.
Take it easy, Frank. LOL
I hate stupidity. Stupid people drive me mad, because there is no reasonning with them. They think they "know" and can't be debated with.
Alright Franky poo, let's say I wasn't stupid and that you could reason with me, what would your undeniable points be? I mean, it seems a little weird that someone smarter than me(the idiot) would make a post about me(the idiot) that encompasses the very manner in which they themselves posted, moreso in a manner that aforementioned idiot(me) would be able to easily detect, but I guess I'm too stupid to look at situations as objectively as you. So why don't you just tell me what my opinion should be?
On January 07 2009 21:09 frankbg wrote: .... You haven't watched the video. Don't even fucking quote me. Waste of air.
Take it easy, Frank. LOL
I hate stupidity. Stupid people drive me mad, because there is no reasonning with them. They think they "know" and can't be debated with.
Alright Franky poo, let's say I wasn't stupid and that you could reason with me, what would your undeniable points be? I mean, it seems a little weird that someone smarter than me(the idiot) would make a post about me(the idiot) that encompasses the very manner in which they themselves posted, moreso in a manner that aforementioned idiot(me) would be able to easily detect, but I guess I'm too stupid to look at situations as objectively as you. So why don't you just tell me what my opinion should be?
Here is where I think you're being stupid as hell:
Oh, about the guns drawn thing. If you had a gun, and there was a huge and fairly close group of people around you, you're saying you would risk a few of them running at you without a gun in your hands, and then taking it from you and shooting you? Really? If there was a group of people yelling obscenities and telling me to die, I'd probably have my gun out too? Have you people forgotten what people are like?
Let's go through the checklist:
Huge and fairly close group of people? No, 4-5 guys on the ground and 2-3 sitting back, with a ton of onlookers far back.
You would risk a few of them running at you without a gun in your hands, and then taking it from you and shooting you? No, there were more than enough cops that if this situation happened, whoever took the gun would've been shot (and rightfully so if that happened). Anyways, that was not the situation and nothing indicates that this case could build up into this kind of situation.
If there was a group of people yelling obscenities and telling me to die, I'd probably have my gun out too? You'd be a terrible cop, people yell obscenities to cops all the time, should they all be shot in the back?
Have you people forgotten what people are like? So cops should always walk around with their guns out, safety off, pointing at people, simply because of what "people are like"?
I'm not telling you what your opinion should be, I'm telling you your situation has nothing to do with the case at hand where the suspect is on the ground, cooperating fairly well, not yelling anything at the officer. This was a cold blooded murder and the officier should be treated like the criminal he is. EVEN if it was indeed an accident (rofl), that doesn't mean he isn't responsible. Yes, I'm sure he didn't want to kill the guy, but in the end, he did, and deserves punishement for taking the life of a 22 year old father.
On January 07 2009 21:39 AttackZerg wrote: That was disgusting. I have alot of police officers and such in my family and I can tell you 100% they are not trained to hold a weapon on somebody who is handcuffed and has a knee in the back of there neck from a fellow officer. They don't do this because it puts the other officer at risk.
This ruined my night.
This isn't nearly as uncommon as any of you think.
He wasn't handcuffed.
omg that changes everything!!! except im being sarcastic and it really doesn't change shit.
On January 07 2009 20:07 IzzyCraft wrote: Wow seriously some of the comments people make in this thread about police bashing is just off the cuff. Frankly at least in most parts of California police officers are to be trusted atlest now... and are unless your a gangbanger or some random shit like that most people have confidence in the police it's a necessary part of governing body that people are put into line when they are out of line.
Can we please keep the cops die fuck cops i hope that guy gets shot bull shit out of this forum. Really all you are doing is breeding hate maybe i should hope you accidently knock over a large object a kill a little boy so then that boys family can wish someone accidently causes your death. For serious just stop that bull shit troll ball busting crap and stop posting when you're high and paranoid.
I can't understand what you're saying.
Oh, about the guns drawn thing. If you had a gun, and there was a huge and fairly close group of people around you, you're saying you would risk a few of them running at you without a gun in your hands, and then taking it from you and shooting you? Really? If there was a group of people yelling obscenities and telling me to die, I'd probably have my gun out too? Have you people forgotten what people are like?
Are you f******* kidding me? People telling you to die? Have you watched the video? He was shot by a cold blooded assassin. The guy was cooperating, he had my age, had a kid, was drunk and got into a fight, is that enough to deserve to be shot in the back while you wait to be handcuffed?
Yes, fuck the police. When you give people the authority to arrest, beat and shoot other people, you're bound to see excess. Now the smart asses in here who will try to use this quote and say "Oh, so we don't have police anymore? What would we do then?". I'm not saying I have a solution or anything, I'm just pointing out that with our current system, shit like this is bound to happen. What's worse is cops follow orders without any judgement and become part of the machine which is slowly killing free speach in the western world. Yes, fuck the police.
I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. See teamliquid, I told you, now do you understand? This is what some people actually think. So, if you guys were surrounded by this guy, would you have your pistols readied?
Seriously, just stop posting until you watch the 2nd video cause you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
I don't know what to say to this. Are you really saying it wasn't an accident? What is your qualm with me? I mean, we have to get the facts straight. Did that look intentional to you? Should we hate that guy because he's ruining free speach in the western world? I watched the second video, and it looked like he was pulling out the gun to get him to cooperate. It looked like while the police officer was propping himself up to stand straight, a shot came out. It looked to me like an accident. I guess that's just a clueless suggestion.
....it doesn't matter that it was an "accident". Here let me give u some other examples of when "it was an accident" doesn't matter either: 1) I just bought a brand new .45 and I'm showing it off to my ex girlfriend, showing her the barrel up close so she could check out the cool grooves of the gun, when suddenly the gun discharges and i "accidentally" shoot her in the face. Now what? The court is gonna let me go easy because i claim it was an accident? The RESULT is the same, she's dead and its my fault. And as far as the law is concerned im fucked.
2) I just bought a brand new 2009 VW GTI (sexy as fuck) and i'm cruising along with the windows down looking like a pimp. Then i look down really quick because i dropped a cd i was just about to load when BAM i strike a kid coming out from school. Fuck guess what? It was an accident but it doesn't matter shit because the kid's dead and i didn't follow "procedure" which would have been to reduce my speed in a school zone and prevent that shit from happening. So as far as the law is concerned, im fucked more ways than one.
So in reality it's still the police department's fault for not training the officer on what proper procedure was in that kind of situation, or it was the officer's fault for not following proper procedure that he was taught. Accident or not. Handcuffed or not. It was fucking murder, just like it would have been if it was any of us doing the act. Period. Let it go.
On January 07 2009 21:39 AttackZerg wrote: That was disgusting. I have alot of police officers and such in my family and I can tell you 100% they are not trained to hold a weapon on somebody who is handcuffed and has a knee in the back of there neck from a fellow officer. They don't do this because it puts the other officer at risk.
This ruined my night.
This isn't nearly as uncommon as any of you think.
He wasn't handcuffed.
omg that changes everything!!! except im being sarcastic and it really doesn't change shit.
On January 07 2009 20:07 IzzyCraft wrote: Wow seriously some of the comments people make in this thread about police bashing is just off the cuff. Frankly at least in most parts of California police officers are to be trusted atlest now... and are unless your a gangbanger or some random shit like that most people have confidence in the police it's a necessary part of governing body that people are put into line when they are out of line.
Can we please keep the cops die fuck cops i hope that guy gets shot bull shit out of this forum. Really all you are doing is breeding hate maybe i should hope you accidently knock over a large object a kill a little boy so then that boys family can wish someone accidently causes your death. For serious just stop that bull shit troll ball busting crap and stop posting when you're high and paranoid.
I can't understand what you're saying.
Oh, about the guns drawn thing. If you had a gun, and there was a huge and fairly close group of people around you, you're saying you would risk a few of them running at you without a gun in your hands, and then taking it from you and shooting you? Really? If there was a group of people yelling obscenities and telling me to die, I'd probably have my gun out too? Have you people forgotten what people are like?
Are you f******* kidding me? People telling you to die? Have you watched the video? He was shot by a cold blooded assassin. The guy was cooperating, he had my age, had a kid, was drunk and got into a fight, is that enough to deserve to be shot in the back while you wait to be handcuffed?
Yes, fuck the police. When you give people the authority to arrest, beat and shoot other people, you're bound to see excess. Now the smart asses in here who will try to use this quote and say "Oh, so we don't have police anymore? What would we do then?". I'm not saying I have a solution or anything, I'm just pointing out that with our current system, shit like this is bound to happen. What's worse is cops follow orders without any judgement and become part of the machine which is slowly killing free speach in the western world. Yes, fuck the police.
I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. See teamliquid, I told you, now do you understand? This is what some people actually think. So, if you guys were surrounded by this guy, would you have your pistols readied?
Seriously, just stop posting until you watch the 2nd video cause you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
I don't know what to say to this. Are you really saying it wasn't an accident? What is your qualm with me? I mean, we have to get the facts straight. Did that look intentional to you? Should we hate that guy because he's ruining free speach in the western world? I watched the second video, and it looked like he was pulling out the gun to get him to cooperate. It looked like while the police officer was propping himself up to stand straight, a shot came out. It looked to me like an accident. I guess that's just a clueless suggestion.
....it doesn't matter that it was an "accident". Here let me give u some other examples of when "it was an accident" doesn't matter either: 1) I just bought a brand new .45 and I'm showing it off to my ex girlfriend, showing her the barrel up close so she could check out the cool grooves of the gun, when suddenly the gun discharges and i "accidentally" shoot her in the face. Now what? The court is gonna let me go easy because i claim it was an accident? The RESULT is the same, she's dead and its my fault. And as far as the law is concerned im fucked.
2) I just bought a brand new 2009 VW GTI (sexy as fuck) and i'm crusing along with the windows down looking like a pimp. The i look down really quick because i dropped a cd i was just about to load when BAM i strike a kid coming out from school. Fuck guess what? It was an accident but it doesn't matter shit because the kid's dead and i didn't follow "procedure" which would have been to reduce my speed in a school zone and prevent that shit from happening. So as far as the law is concerned, im fucked more ways than one.
So in reality it's still the police department's fault for not training the officer on what proper procedure was in that kind of situation, or it was the officer's fault for not following proper procedure that he was taught. Accident or not. Handcuffed or not. It was fucking murder, just like it would have been if it was any of us doing the act. Period. Let it go.
Who cares if it's accident? Umm the courts because manlaughter and murder are 2 differnt birds and one gives you much long time in jail then another.
How do you know he doesn't have proper training you just assume everything why don't they reduce the entire police academy for years and years why don't they underpay policemen even more For calming down a fight pulling a gun is proper procedure to show force is considered necessary it's why procedure for a hostage situation is to pull extra policemen from different areas to show force. The thing about controlling a populous to actually obey the law is that you have to make them either respect or fear you and the thing is usually the ones to break the law don't respect you.
On January 07 2009 21:12 IzzyCraft wrote: When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist.
There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.
You can stop quoting Civilization IV now.
Why it's a good game also I'm quoting the people more then I'm quoting the game =p Wonder how mad are you to actually peace it together via because i doubt you play.
Frankly you and I agree he should and will be punished but you act like he wont be punished at all this is more or less top of the list of the worse things that can happen to you as a police officer his life is more or less perma changed and after he gets out a jail along with w.e amount of things will happen is that he wont be able to retain a police officer status anymore hell have to find another profession etc.
Seriously the severity of this shit that some of you post act like every life is precious and i'll become outrage at everything that happens.
Words have the power to both destroy and heal. When words are both true and kind, they can change our world
And frankly becoming this outraged and irrational to punishment is more destructive then productive in a society like cali's. I can snap my fingers ever 3 secs and a child just died of TB i can tap my feet every 3 mins and a person was just abused by their life partner just because something has happened doesn't warrant outcry. Maybe i should call everyone that smokes weed in America a criminal a poison upon society who blandly disobey the law for the seek of pleasure encouraging shady characters to continue to thrive in our beloved country, and it's not a big jump things will be handled and all this extra controversy over something like this is nothing but emotional bull shit why don't we change the things that can serve the greater good instead of changing nothing and just bitching about it.
Do you bitch slap and burn a child for accidently tripping and knocking over your priceless vase well you shouldn't so then why do you people are like out to do justice that will do well on it's own what you want the man to spend life in prison over this wth is your problem he's not getting off scott free unless the guy had like a uzi in his belt buckle and the bart police are just withholding that information for the hell of it. Why do you want a crucify a man when there are clearly far worse people doing far worse things this man will be punished and more or less his life ruined.
Police are always fucked in America just because people think its still 1960 everywhere and every time a black man get arrested it's Rodney king all over again. People out cry for change but frankly i never see people appreciates it instead they protest and bitch and ruin peoples life's for what a patch a small fix fuck sakes a police officer a like 10 veteran on the force had to resign due to stupid public pressure on supposed "racial profiling" because on a off handed comment about saying tall black male suspect when in reality she just meant that be on the look out for anyone suspicious fitting the vague description that they currently only have. But no people have to turn a small thing and crucify the person I could walk outside and the first person i see and punch them right in the face and get off with a 600+ fine right now.
On January 07 2009 23:01 HeavenS wrote: What the fuck?? Bro, seriously who gives a shit if it was an accident????
On January 07 2009 21:40 Salv wrote:
On January 07 2009 21:39 AttackZerg wrote: That was disgusting. I have alot of police officers and such in my family and I can tell you 100% they are not trained to hold a weapon on somebody who is handcuffed and has a knee in the back of there neck from a fellow officer. They don't do this because it puts the other officer at risk.
This ruined my night.
This isn't nearly as uncommon as any of you think.
He wasn't handcuffed.
omg that changes everything!!! except im being sarcastic and it really doesn't change shit.
On January 07 2009 21:35 Element)LoGiC wrote:
On January 07 2009 21:21 BlackJack wrote:
On January 07 2009 20:57 Element)LoGiC wrote:
On January 07 2009 20:44 frankbg wrote:
On January 07 2009 20:13 Element)LoGiC wrote:
On January 07 2009 20:07 IzzyCraft wrote: Wow seriously some of the comments people make in this thread about police bashing is just off the cuff. Frankly at least in most parts of California police officers are to be trusted atlest now... and are unless your a gangbanger or some random shit like that most people have confidence in the police it's a necessary part of governing body that people are put into line when they are out of line.
Can we please keep the cops die fuck cops i hope that guy gets shot bull shit out of this forum. Really all you are doing is breeding hate maybe i should hope you accidently knock over a large object a kill a little boy so then that boys family can wish someone accidently causes your death. For serious just stop that bull shit troll ball busting crap and stop posting when you're high and paranoid.
I can't understand what you're saying.
Oh, about the guns drawn thing. If you had a gun, and there was a huge and fairly close group of people around you, you're saying you would risk a few of them running at you without a gun in your hands, and then taking it from you and shooting you? Really? If there was a group of people yelling obscenities and telling me to die, I'd probably have my gun out too? Have you people forgotten what people are like?
Are you f******* kidding me? People telling you to die? Have you watched the video? He was shot by a cold blooded assassin. The guy was cooperating, he had my age, had a kid, was drunk and got into a fight, is that enough to deserve to be shot in the back while you wait to be handcuffed?
Yes, fuck the police. When you give people the authority to arrest, beat and shoot other people, you're bound to see excess. Now the smart asses in here who will try to use this quote and say "Oh, so we don't have police anymore? What would we do then?". I'm not saying I have a solution or anything, I'm just pointing out that with our current system, shit like this is bound to happen. What's worse is cops follow orders without any judgement and become part of the machine which is slowly killing free speach in the western world. Yes, fuck the police.
I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. See teamliquid, I told you, now do you understand? This is what some people actually think. So, if you guys were surrounded by this guy, would you have your pistols readied?
Seriously, just stop posting until you watch the 2nd video cause you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
I don't know what to say to this. Are you really saying it wasn't an accident? What is your qualm with me? I mean, we have to get the facts straight. Did that look intentional to you? Should we hate that guy because he's ruining free speach in the western world? I watched the second video, and it looked like he was pulling out the gun to get him to cooperate. It looked like while the police officer was propping himself up to stand straight, a shot came out. It looked to me like an accident. I guess that's just a clueless suggestion.
....it doesn't matter that it was an "accident". Here let me give u some other examples of when "it was an accident" doesn't matter either: 1) I just bought a brand new .45 and I'm showing it off to my ex girlfriend, showing her the barrel up close so she could check out the cool grooves of the gun, when suddenly the gun discharges and i "accidentally" shoot her in the face. Now what? The court is gonna let me go easy because i claim it was an accident? The RESULT is the same, she's dead and its my fault. And as far as the law is concerned im fucked.
2) I just bought a brand new 2009 VW GTI (sexy as fuck) and i'm crusing along with the windows down looking like a pimp. The i look down really quick because i dropped a cd i was just about to load when BAM i strike a kid coming out from school. Fuck guess what? It was an accident but it doesn't matter shit because the kid's dead and i didn't follow "procedure" which would have been to reduce my speed in a school zone and prevent that shit from happening. So as far as the law is concerned, im fucked more ways than one.
So in reality it's still the police department's fault for not training the officer on what proper procedure was in that kind of situation, or it was the officer's fault for not following proper procedure that he was taught. Accident or not. Handcuffed or not. It was fucking murder, just like it would have been if it was any of us doing the act. Period. Let it go.
Who cares if it's accident? Umm the courts because manlaughter and murder are 2 differnt birds and one gives you much long time in jail then another.
How do you know he doesn't have proper training you just assume everything why don't they reduce the entire police academy for years and years why don't they underpay policemen even more For calming down a fight pulling a gun is proper procedure to show force is considered necessary it's why procedure for a hostage situation is to pull extra policemen from different areas to show force. The thing about controlling a populous to actually obey the law is that you have to make them either respect or fear you and the thing is usually the ones to break the law don't respect you.
On January 07 2009 21:24 IzzyCraft wrote: What gunpowder did for war, the printing press has done for the mind
On January 07 2009 20:56 IzzyCraft wrote: It is from their foes, not their friends, that cities learn the lesson of building high walls
On January 07 2009 21:12 IzzyCraft wrote: When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist.
There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.
You can stop quoting Civilization IV now.
Why it's a good game also I'm quoting the people more then I'm quoting the game =p Wonder how mad are you to actually peace it together via because i doubt you play.
Frankly you and I agree he should and will be punished but you act like he wont be punished at all this is more or less top of the list of the worse things that can happen to you as a police officer his life is more or less perma changed and after he gets out a jail along with w.e amount of things will happen is that he wont be able to retain a police officer status anymore hell have to find another profession etc.
Seriously the severity of this shit that some of you post act like every life is precious and i'll become outrage at everything that happens.
Words have the power to both destroy and heal. When words are both true and kind, they can change our world
And frankly becoming this outraged and irrational to punishment is more destructive then productive in a society like cali's. I can snap my fingers ever 3 secs and a child just died of TB i can tap my feet every 3 mins and a person was just abused by their life partner just because something has happened doesn't warrant outcry. Maybe i should call everyone that smokes weed in America a criminal a poison upon society who blandly disobey the law for the seek of pleasure encouraging shady characters to continue to thrive in our beloved country, and it's not a big jump things will be handled and all this extra controversy over something like this is nothing but emotional bull shit why don't we change the things that can serve the greater good instead of changing nothing and just bitching about it.
Yes, every life is precious. If you think elsewise, you're being an hypocrit. What if it was your brother? "Yeah who cares, a kid dies every 3 secs anyways"
Also, I do play Civ, I've been a huge fan of the series since the late 90's. Randomly spewing lines from it doesn't really make you look smarter though. I wonder if you wrote them in the order you get the techs aswell, are you playing it as you type?
On January 07 2009 23:30 IzzyCraft wrote: Do you bitch slap and burn a child for accidently tripping and knocking over your priceless vase well you shouldn't so then why do you people are like out to do justice that will do well on it's own what you want the man to spend life in prison over this wth is your problem he's not getting off scott free unless the guy had like a uzi in his belt buckle and the bart police are just withholding that information for the hell of it. Why do you want a crucify a man when there are clearly far worse people doing far worse things this man will be punished and more or less his life ruined.
Police are always fucked in America just because people think its still 1960 everywhere and every time a black man get arrested it's Rodney king all over again. People out cry for change but frankly i never see people appreciates it instead they protest and bitch and ruin peoples life's for what a patch a small fix fuck sakes a police officer a like 10 veteran on the force had to resign due to stupid public pressure on supposed "racial profiling" because on a off handed comment about saying tall black male suspect when in reality she just meant that be on the look out for anyone suspicious fitting the vague description that they currently only have. But no people have to turn a small thing and crucify the person I could walk outside and the first person i see and punch them right in the face and get off with a 600+ fine right now.
Punctuation, use it. (I'm not just trolling, I literally could not follow this wall of text as is)
On January 07 2009 23:30 IzzyCraft wrote: Do you bitch slap and burn a child for accidently tripping and knocking over your priceless vase well you shouldn't so then why do you people are like out to do justice that will do well on it's own what you want the man to spend life in prison over this wth is your problem he's not getting off scott free unless the guy had like a uzi in his belt buckle and the bart police are just withholding that information for the hell of it. Why do you want a crucify a man when there are clearly far worse people doing far worse things this man will be punished and more or less his life ruined.
Police are always fucked in America just because people think its still 1960 everywhere and every time a black man get arrested it's Rodney king all over again. People out cry for change but frankly i never see people appreciates it instead they protest and bitch and ruin peoples life's for what a patch a small fix fuck sakes a police officer a like 10 veteran on the force had to resign due to stupid public pressure on supposed "racial profiling" because on a off handed comment about saying tall black male suspect when in reality she just meant that be on the look out for anyone suspicious fitting the vague description that they currently only have. But no people have to turn a small thing and crucify the person I could walk outside and the first person i see and punch them right in the face and get off with a 600+ fine right now.
Punctuation, use it. (I'm not just trolling, I literally could not follow this wall of text as is)
On January 07 2009 23:33 frankbg wrote: I loved the "I doubt you play" line as well, gives us a good insight on your attitude. It's like if playing Civ was a "bourgeoisie" thing. LOL
Naw it's just not alot of people play civ enough to remeber the quotes so i assumed you googled the quotes until you saw a commonality esp civ 4 which games even on fastest are 3-5 hours long
Psh and poeple said I make too many one liners
In short why are there people wanting to punsh a man already being punshed do they not realise what will happen to him or they just mean and wish everyone to burn let the court decide how long he has for jail which he will get.
I find just out most and i mean most public out cry to be unheplful esp to califonia most times decisions made by public pressure are unhelpful and usually end up runing a small group of peoples lifes.
I just find people get too tied up in emotions without looking at something logically and assesting all aspects of a given event and what happens is that it's hitlar styled outcry say it once say it again hell say it until they hear it in their dreams because it's all you have to say and you're just gonna pressure poeple into obeying. Thats the short verson without examples etc.
On January 05 2009 13:05 naonao wrote: The man was on the ground with his hands behind his back, there is obviously a reason for that and he had done something warranting at least an arrest, so he must have been dangerous at one point in time meriting the officer to have his gun out. The details as to what happened before the shot was fired are omitted, leading me to believe that the "victim" might not be all that the OP describes him as.
bullshit. Tell that to black people that get harassed by cops all the time in NYC.
Like all cops are 100% by the book and won't lay your ass out given the chance. If someone can die from 41 fatal shots for pulling out his damn wallet, Rodney King get beaten up on tape, and the countless crooked cop stories in NYC I don't think any of this cannot happen.
On January 05 2009 12:02 Aca wrote: $25 Million Lawsuit Announced In BART Shooting
An Oakland attorney representing the family of a man slain by a Bay Area Rapid Transit police officer early New Year's Day said Sunday that they will file a $25 million lawsuit against BART.
Nice ! The lawyer will get 24.9 million, and the dead niggas family gets the rest.
OH SWEET JUSTICE
How classy! Stupid, greedy cunts.
Guys, if a group surrounds a few officers making an arrest, guns are coming out every time. What the hell are you people bitching about. I'd rather see some idiot who was trying to overpower a cop get accidently shot in the face than have our officers rendered useless by bullshit, pacifist laws.
It's unfortunate that the guy got shot, but cops can't be completely defenseless when you've got an angry mob of drunken retards around them.
Not that I'm trying to condone the officers actions or belittle the situation in general, but a sure-fire way to make sure shit like this doesn't happen to yourself is to obey the law, and not do dumb shit like fighting on a train.
Yeah and NYC is not Cali esp the Bay Area NYC you go outside and at all the high rises you see a smoking group Bay Area Cali you can say nigga 100 times in public and no one takes it as offence unless you mean offence but usually by then it's 2 black poeple having i'm tuffer contest but wont do shit without his friends. Different area's vasty different culture and styles in handleing things. Rodney king was beaten in LA but all you find now is LA police having to deal with gang violence so much usually the FBI is pulled in to take down major gangs. Really why not blame the problem on the people that wont stay in the bounds of the law before we start fucking over the poeple tring to enforce the law. Ofc there are crooked cops some more then others doesn't mean every policeman you see you should give them the evil eye.
I agree, I actually respect cops. Just saying that guy shouldn't assume someone is being arrested because they did something wrong. Living in NYC has taught me THAT is definitely not always the case even when obeying the law.
On January 07 2009 23:48 IzzyCraft wrote: Really why not blame the problem on the people that wont stay in the bounds of the law before we start fucking over the poeple tring to enforce the law. Ofc there are crooked cops some more then others doesn't mean every policeman you see you should give them the evil eye.
Make a weapon that doesn't kill but only stuns and has the range rapid fire capablity and penetration of a gun oh wait that's sci-fi dam Stargate SG-1 getting my hopes so high again dang Zat'nik'tel you aren't real yet atlest
i don't understand these arguments, i highly doubt that the cop purposefully shot the guy in the back, either way he deserves jail time, aiming a gun at a restrained person (he was restrained, handcuffs or not.) with the safety off is completely unfounded. he didnt follow safety procedures and he should be punished for that. the only thing to argue about is whether he will get manslaughter or murder, but since he is a cop its almost 100% guaranteed he will get manslaughter.
ps. izzycraft no offense but if you have so much to say please use punctuation.
On January 07 2009 23:55 ShaperofDreams wrote: i don't understand these arguments, i highly doubt that the cop purposefully shot the guy in the back, either way he deserves jail time, aiming a gun at a restrained person (he was restrained, handcuffs or not.) with the safety off is completely unfounded. he didnt follow safety procedures and he should be punished for that. the only thing to argue about is whether he will get manslaughter or murder, but since he is a cop its almost 100% guaranteed he will get manslaughter.
ps. izzycraft no offense but if you have so much to say please use punctuation.
Knee on the back certainly ins't restrained. A guy isn't restrained until those cuffs are on.
@2nd video: wtf, why did he have his gun in his hand all the while he was restraining the victim with two other officers with the safety off. Thats just plain stupid, I don't believe police officers are teached to do so. It's prison time for that idiot.
Dunno about the lawsuit though - how can they sue BART for it? Somebody plz explain.
On January 07 2009 20:08 IzzyCraft wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8 Friendly tourtorial makes light about it but seriously some of the jokes are valid points...
after facepalming most of the thread, this made me smile
On January 07 2009 23:01 HeavenS wrote: What the fuck?? Bro, seriously who gives a shit if it was an accident????
On January 07 2009 21:40 Salv wrote:
On January 07 2009 21:39 AttackZerg wrote: That was disgusting. I have alot of police officers and such in my family and I can tell you 100% they are not trained to hold a weapon on somebody who is handcuffed and has a knee in the back of there neck from a fellow officer. They don't do this because it puts the other officer at risk.
This ruined my night.
This isn't nearly as uncommon as any of you think.
He wasn't handcuffed.
omg that changes everything!!! except im being sarcastic and it really doesn't change shit.
On January 07 2009 21:35 Element)LoGiC wrote:
On January 07 2009 21:21 BlackJack wrote:
On January 07 2009 20:57 Element)LoGiC wrote:
On January 07 2009 20:44 frankbg wrote:
On January 07 2009 20:13 Element)LoGiC wrote:
On January 07 2009 20:07 IzzyCraft wrote: Wow seriously some of the comments people make in this thread about police bashing is just off the cuff. Frankly at least in most parts of California police officers are to be trusted atlest now... and are unless your a gangbanger or some random shit like that most people have confidence in the police it's a necessary part of governing body that people are put into line when they are out of line.
Can we please keep the cops die fuck cops i hope that guy gets shot bull shit out of this forum. Really all you are doing is breeding hate maybe i should hope you accidently knock over a large object a kill a little boy so then that boys family can wish someone accidently causes your death. For serious just stop that bull shit troll ball busting crap and stop posting when you're high and paranoid.
I can't understand what you're saying.
Oh, about the guns drawn thing. If you had a gun, and there was a huge and fairly close group of people around you, you're saying you would risk a few of them running at you without a gun in your hands, and then taking it from you and shooting you? Really? If there was a group of people yelling obscenities and telling me to die, I'd probably have my gun out too? Have you people forgotten what people are like?
Are you f******* kidding me? People telling you to die? Have you watched the video? He was shot by a cold blooded assassin. The guy was cooperating, he had my age, had a kid, was drunk and got into a fight, is that enough to deserve to be shot in the back while you wait to be handcuffed?
Yes, fuck the police. When you give people the authority to arrest, beat and shoot other people, you're bound to see excess. Now the smart asses in here who will try to use this quote and say "Oh, so we don't have police anymore? What would we do then?". I'm not saying I have a solution or anything, I'm just pointing out that with our current system, shit like this is bound to happen. What's worse is cops follow orders without any judgement and become part of the machine which is slowly killing free speach in the western world. Yes, fuck the police.
I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. See teamliquid, I told you, now do you understand? This is what some people actually think. So, if you guys were surrounded by this guy, would you have your pistols readied?
Seriously, just stop posting until you watch the 2nd video cause you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
I don't know what to say to this. Are you really saying it wasn't an accident? What is your qualm with me? I mean, we have to get the facts straight. Did that look intentional to you? Should we hate that guy because he's ruining free speach in the western world? I watched the second video, and it looked like he was pulling out the gun to get him to cooperate. It looked like while the police officer was propping himself up to stand straight, a shot came out. It looked to me like an accident. I guess that's just a clueless suggestion.
....it doesn't matter that it was an "accident". Here let me give u some other examples of when "it was an accident" doesn't matter either: 1) I just bought a brand new .45 and I'm showing it off to my ex girlfriend, showing her the barrel up close so she could check out the cool grooves of the gun, when suddenly the gun discharges and i "accidentally" shoot her in the face. Now what? The court is gonna let me go easy because i claim it was an accident? The RESULT is the same, she's dead and its my fault. And as far as the law is concerned im fucked.
2) I just bought a brand new 2009 VW GTI (sexy as fuck) and i'm crusing along with the windows down looking like a pimp. The i look down really quick because i dropped a cd i was just about to load when BAM i strike a kid coming out from school. Fuck guess what? It was an accident but it doesn't matter shit because the kid's dead and i didn't follow "procedure" which would have been to reduce my speed in a school zone and prevent that shit from happening. So as far as the law is concerned, im fucked more ways than one.
So in reality it's still the police department's fault for not training the officer on what proper procedure was in that kind of situation, or it was the officer's fault for not following proper procedure that he was taught. Accident or not. Handcuffed or not. It was fucking murder, just like it would have been if it was any of us doing the act. Period. Let it go.
Who cares if it's accident? Umm the courts because manlaughter and murder are 2 differnt birds and one gives you much long time in jail then another.
How do you know he doesn't have proper training you just assume everything why don't they reduce the entire police academy for years and years why don't they underpay policemen even more For calming down a fight pulling a gun is proper procedure to show force is considered necessary it's why procedure for a hostage situation is to pull extra policemen from different areas to show force. The thing about controlling a populous to actually obey the law is that you have to make them either respect or fear you and the thing is usually the ones to break the law don't respect you.
The only reason why you should pull your gun is if you intend to use it. It is not meant to be a coercive or negotiating force. If there is deadly threat to you or others, you pull your weapon and you use it. Civilian CCW licence carriers understand this, cops should too. It is one of the fundamental principles of gun safety: don't point your gun at anything you're not willing to destroy, because otherwise, you'll end up in shit situations like this one. They carry batons, tasers, pepper spray, etc. for a reason.
Just to clarify, since people seem confused on this still.. Guns were not "drawn" because of an angry mob surrounding the officers. Guns were not "drawn" at all. The only time a gun was pulled out was 5 seconds before it was used. The officer that fired the shot wasn't paying a lick of attention to the crowd. He was struggling with the suspect on the ground, then he pulled out his gun, stood up, and shot the suspect.
Here's the link to the second video http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2009/01/06/18559091.php since some people seem to be incapable of finding it within the thread. You'd need to be dellusional to suggest that officer pulled out his gun because he was threatened by an angry mob when 100% of his attention is focused on the suspect.
On January 07 2009 21:55 MyLostTemple wrote: only in America. cops in the USA are so fucked up.
only in america? are you joking???
ours are REALLY REALLY bad x.x
I hope you're joking Nick, I actually think, for the most part, we have some of the best. We also have an extremely larged melting-pot of a population, and given the huge number of policemen we do have, the few extreme/fucked up examples are going to get a shitton of attention, while the vast majority are doing their job the proper way.
The problem with American news is that we tend to highlight the things that cause fear like shark attack and stuff and we give those attention watching american news is a very much downer. You never see happy times on the news or if you do it's only for a small bit for a second.
(01-07) 21:13 PST Oakland -- A protest over the fatal shooting by a BART police officer of an unarmed man mushroomed into a violent confrontation tonight, as a faction of protesters smashed a police car and storefronts, set several cars on fire and blocked streets in downtown Oakland.
Protesters smashed the storefronts of McDonald's as well as stores called Creative African Braids and Oakland Yoon's Pharmacy. Cars along 14th Street were smashed, and some were set ablaze.
A woman walked out of Creative African Braids holding a baby in her arms.
"This is our business," she shouted. "This is our shop. This is what you call a protest?"
Nia Sykes, 24, of San Francisco, a protester who was with the group, said, "I feel like the night is going great. I feel like Oakland should make some noise. This is how we need to fight back.
"It's for the murder of a black male," said Sykes, who is black. The demonstration "is totally appropriate."
Sykes had little sympathy for the owner of Creative African Braids.
"She should be glad she just lost her business and not her life," Sykes said. She added that she did have one worry for the night: "I just hope nobody gets shot or killed."
Near 14th and Alice streets, Myron Bell was taking lessons in a step, a form of dance popular among African Americans, when he looked out the window and saw people jumping on his Lexus sedan.
Bell, 42, came out to find that almost all of his windows, including the front and back had been smashed and it appeared that someone had tried to set the car on fire.
"I'm for the cause," Bell said. "But I'm against the violence and destruction."
Nearby, Godhuli Bose stood near her smashed Toyota Corolla, and a protester walked by, repeatedly calling her a misogynist epithet.
"F- your car. F- your car," he said to Bose. Bose, a high school teacher: "I can't afford this."
The protest started peacefully shortly after 3 p.m. at the Fruitvale Station in Oakland, where BART police Officer Johannes Mehserle shot 22-year-old Oscar Grant of Hayward to death early New Year's Day. BART shut down the station well into the evening commute, although the demonstration there was peaceful.
However, shortly after nightfall, a group of roughly 200 protesters split off and head toward downtown Oakland, prompting the transit agency to close the Lake Merritt station.
Oakland Police Officer Michael Cardoza parked his car across the intersection of Eighth and Madison streets, to prevent traffic from flowing toward Broadway and into the protest. But he told The Chronicle that a group of 30 to 40 protesters quickly surrounded his car and started smashing it with bottles and rocks.
Cardoza jumped out of the car and said some protesters tried to set the car on fire, while others jumped on top of the hood - incidents repeatedly shown on television. Cardoza said the protesters "were trying to entice us into doing something."
A group of protesters also set a trash bin aflame, moving it adjacent to the police car.
Police threw tear gas into the group to disperse it, Sgt. Mark MacAulay said. After 8 p.m., there were numerous arrests.
"When you get that mob mentality, it can be dangerous," MacAulay said.
Other protesters marched on BART's 12th Street Station about 7 p.m., prompting the transit agency to close the downtown hub station even as it was reopening the Lake Merritt and Fruitvale stations.
Protesters blocked the intersection of 14th and Broadway, near the downtown BART station entrance. As police put on helmets and gas masks and stood in a line formation, protesters held signs that read, "Your idea of justice?" and "Jail Killer Cops."
One man lay in the intersection with his face down and his hands behind his back - seemingly evoking the position that Grant was in when he was shot.
Some protesters wore masks over their faces as they yelled at police. Roughly a dozen stood just a few feet away from police as they screamed at them. Chants included "pigs go home," "the fascist police, no justice, no peace" and "we are all Oscar Grant."
Mandingo Hayes, who is black, said he went to the protest because "we're tired of all these police agencies getting away with shooting unarmed black and Latino males."
Hayes, 36, downplayed the attack on the police car.
"For a police car to get abused, and for a person to get shot and killed, which would you rather be?" said Hayes, a construction worker from San Pablo.
The core group of protesters was about 40 people, several of whom were with Revolution Books, a Berkeley bookstore. A man distributing "The Revolution" newspaper shouted "This whole damn system is guilty!"
Earlier in the day, police had been largely passive. But at around 7:54 p.m., they began to push the crowd toward Lake Merritt. One officer shouted "Get Back! Get Back! Get Back!" As they forced protesters back, protesters smashed windows, cars and threw objects at police.
The proximity of this really shocks me, to go home from university for the weekend, I take the train through Oakland. Wow.
On January 08 2009 15:43 CDRdude wrote: Holy shit, this has turned into a full-blown riot O_O. The whole BART-shooting thing started a protest, and now it seems like it's blown all to hell.
(01-07) 21:13 PST Oakland -- A protest over the fatal shooting by a BART police officer of an unarmed man mushroomed into a violent confrontation tonight, as a faction of protesters smashed a police car and storefronts, set several cars on fire and blocked streets in downtown Oakland.
Protesters smashed the storefronts of McDonald's as well as stores called Creative African Braids and Oakland Yoon's Pharmacy. Cars along 14th Street were smashed, and some were set ablaze.
A woman walked out of Creative African Braids holding a baby in her arms.
"This is our business," she shouted. "This is our shop. This is what you call a protest?"
Nia Sykes, 24, of San Francisco, a protester who was with the group, said, "I feel like the night is going great. I feel like Oakland should make some noise. This is how we need to fight back.
"It's for the murder of a black male," said Sykes, who is black. The demonstration "is totally appropriate."
Sykes had little sympathy for the owner of Creative African Braids.
"She should be glad she just lost her business and not her life," Sykes said. She added that she did have one worry for the night: "I just hope nobody gets shot or killed."
Near 14th and Alice streets, Myron Bell was taking lessons in a step, a form of dance popular among African Americans, when he looked out the window and saw people jumping on his Lexus sedan.
Bell, 42, came out to find that almost all of his windows, including the front and back had been smashed and it appeared that someone had tried to set the car on fire.
"I'm for the cause," Bell said. "But I'm against the violence and destruction."
Nearby, Godhuli Bose stood near her smashed Toyota Corolla, and a protester walked by, repeatedly calling her a misogynist epithet.
"F- your car. F- your car," he said to Bose. Bose, a high school teacher: "I can't afford this."
The protest started peacefully shortly after 3 p.m. at the Fruitvale Station in Oakland, where BART police Officer Johannes Mehserle shot 22-year-old Oscar Grant of Hayward to death early New Year's Day. BART shut down the station well into the evening commute, although the demonstration there was peaceful.
However, shortly after nightfall, a group of roughly 200 protesters split off and head toward downtown Oakland, prompting the transit agency to close the Lake Merritt station.
Oakland Police Officer Michael Cardoza parked his car across the intersection of Eighth and Madison streets, to prevent traffic from flowing toward Broadway and into the protest. But he told The Chronicle that a group of 30 to 40 protesters quickly surrounded his car and started smashing it with bottles and rocks.
Cardoza jumped out of the car and said some protesters tried to set the car on fire, while others jumped on top of the hood - incidents repeatedly shown on television. Cardoza said the protesters "were trying to entice us into doing something."
A group of protesters also set a trash bin aflame, moving it adjacent to the police car.
Police threw tear gas into the group to disperse it, Sgt. Mark MacAulay said. After 8 p.m., there were numerous arrests.
"When you get that mob mentality, it can be dangerous," MacAulay said.
Other protesters marched on BART's 12th Street Station about 7 p.m., prompting the transit agency to close the downtown hub station even as it was reopening the Lake Merritt and Fruitvale stations.
Protesters blocked the intersection of 14th and Broadway, near the downtown BART station entrance. As police put on helmets and gas masks and stood in a line formation, protesters held signs that read, "Your idea of justice?" and "Jail Killer Cops."
One man lay in the intersection with his face down and his hands behind his back - seemingly evoking the position that Grant was in when he was shot.
Some protesters wore masks over their faces as they yelled at police. Roughly a dozen stood just a few feet away from police as they screamed at them. Chants included "pigs go home," "the fascist police, no justice, no peace" and "we are all Oscar Grant."
Mandingo Hayes, who is black, said he went to the protest because "we're tired of all these police agencies getting away with shooting unarmed black and Latino males."
Hayes, 36, downplayed the attack on the police car.
"For a police car to get abused, and for a person to get shot and killed, which would you rather be?" said Hayes, a construction worker from San Pablo.
The core group of protesters was about 40 people, several of whom were with Revolution Books, a Berkeley bookstore. A man distributing "The Revolution" newspaper shouted "This whole damn system is guilty!"
Earlier in the day, police had been largely passive. But at around 7:54 p.m., they began to push the crowd toward Lake Merritt. One officer shouted "Get Back! Get Back! Get Back!" As they forced protesters back, protesters smashed windows, cars and threw objects at police.
The proximity of this really shocks me, to go home from university for the weekend, I take the train through Oakland. Wow.
Wow.... Proof people are fucking retarded. So their answer to what they believe was senseless violence is... senseless violence?
Lol it's Oakland, not the good part, people are afraid to drive though the streets there i blame all the alcohol and gun stores in the area also the illegal drug gangs in the area seems like a raid there happens every year. I doubt anyone can take what they do count for anything but a reason to commit vandalism.
I had a teacher who lived in Oakland and during every major holiday she would stay in her basement because you would always hear gun fire and it always spooked her.
On January 08 2009 15:43 CDRdude wrote: Holy shit, this has turned into a full-blown riot O_O. The whole BART-shooting thing started a protest, and now it seems like it's blown all to hell.
(01-07) 21:13 PST Oakland -- A protest over the fatal shooting by a BART police officer of an unarmed man mushroomed into a violent confrontation tonight, as a faction of protesters smashed a police car and storefronts, set several cars on fire and blocked streets in downtown Oakland.
Protesters smashed the storefronts of McDonald's as well as stores called Creative African Braids and Oakland Yoon's Pharmacy. Cars along 14th Street were smashed, and some were set ablaze.
A woman walked out of Creative African Braids holding a baby in her arms.
"This is our business," she shouted. "This is our shop. This is what you call a protest?"
Nia Sykes, 24, of San Francisco, a protester who was with the group, said, "I feel like the night is going great. I feel like Oakland should make some noise. This is how we need to fight back.
"It's for the murder of a black male," said Sykes, who is black. The demonstration "is totally appropriate."
Sykes had little sympathy for the owner of Creative African Braids.
"She should be glad she just lost her business and not her life," Sykes said. She added that she did have one worry for the night: "I just hope nobody gets shot or killed."
Near 14th and Alice streets, Myron Bell was taking lessons in a step, a form of dance popular among African Americans, when he looked out the window and saw people jumping on his Lexus sedan.
Bell, 42, came out to find that almost all of his windows, including the front and back had been smashed and it appeared that someone had tried to set the car on fire.
"I'm for the cause," Bell said. "But I'm against the violence and destruction."
Nearby, Godhuli Bose stood near her smashed Toyota Corolla, and a protester walked by, repeatedly calling her a misogynist epithet.
"F- your car. F- your car," he said to Bose. Bose, a high school teacher: "I can't afford this."
The protest started peacefully shortly after 3 p.m. at the Fruitvale Station in Oakland, where BART police Officer Johannes Mehserle shot 22-year-old Oscar Grant of Hayward to death early New Year's Day. BART shut down the station well into the evening commute, although the demonstration there was peaceful.
However, shortly after nightfall, a group of roughly 200 protesters split off and head toward downtown Oakland, prompting the transit agency to close the Lake Merritt station.
Oakland Police Officer Michael Cardoza parked his car across the intersection of Eighth and Madison streets, to prevent traffic from flowing toward Broadway and into the protest. But he told The Chronicle that a group of 30 to 40 protesters quickly surrounded his car and started smashing it with bottles and rocks.
Cardoza jumped out of the car and said some protesters tried to set the car on fire, while others jumped on top of the hood - incidents repeatedly shown on television. Cardoza said the protesters "were trying to entice us into doing something."
A group of protesters also set a trash bin aflame, moving it adjacent to the police car.
Police threw tear gas into the group to disperse it, Sgt. Mark MacAulay said. After 8 p.m., there were numerous arrests.
"When you get that mob mentality, it can be dangerous," MacAulay said.
Other protesters marched on BART's 12th Street Station about 7 p.m., prompting the transit agency to close the downtown hub station even as it was reopening the Lake Merritt and Fruitvale stations.
Protesters blocked the intersection of 14th and Broadway, near the downtown BART station entrance. As police put on helmets and gas masks and stood in a line formation, protesters held signs that read, "Your idea of justice?" and "Jail Killer Cops."
One man lay in the intersection with his face down and his hands behind his back - seemingly evoking the position that Grant was in when he was shot.
Some protesters wore masks over their faces as they yelled at police. Roughly a dozen stood just a few feet away from police as they screamed at them. Chants included "pigs go home," "the fascist police, no justice, no peace" and "we are all Oscar Grant."
Mandingo Hayes, who is black, said he went to the protest because "we're tired of all these police agencies getting away with shooting unarmed black and Latino males."
Hayes, 36, downplayed the attack on the police car.
"For a police car to get abused, and for a person to get shot and killed, which would you rather be?" said Hayes, a construction worker from San Pablo.
The core group of protesters was about 40 people, several of whom were with Revolution Books, a Berkeley bookstore. A man distributing "The Revolution" newspaper shouted "This whole damn system is guilty!"
Earlier in the day, police had been largely passive. But at around 7:54 p.m., they began to push the crowd toward Lake Merritt. One officer shouted "Get Back! Get Back! Get Back!" As they forced protesters back, protesters smashed windows, cars and threw objects at police.
The proximity of this really shocks me, to go home from university for the weekend, I take the train through Oakland. Wow.
Wow.... Proof people are fucking retarded. So their answer to what they believe was senseless violence is... senseless violence?
I know. The reasoning seems to be that the police shoot people so then.......we can smash cars of innocent people?
There'll be another incident of policeman killing somebody/murder if this doesn't stop soon. And then we can say "Can you blame them?"
Lol well the start of it the guy is getting arrested for public drunkenness and fighting at bart with a group of people i mean it's not like the guy is a saint who is like "perfect" and just so happens to be jogging by and accidentally gets shot.
On January 08 2009 18:11 Forgottenfrog wrote: FUCK DA POLICE
In America, the police fuck you!
Well that be cccp? and when the KGB would fuck you. In America the police and FBI fuck you if you're part of gang or drug cartel zeesh too many people in America can't keep away from drugs prisons filled with druggies.
Cop kills civilian = civilians cries FUCK THE POLICE
what dont you get izzycraft?
It's one thing if the guy wasn't getting arrested for basically a violence charge. It's like the kid that gets shot for setting shit in fire in Greece WOW for serious lol okay i know you're mostly rioting about other shit maybe well you better be else it's what i call an overreaction.
I bet if he was pushed in front of a bart train during the fight no one would give a shit. So why give a shit for a man who clearly didn't give a shit.
Cop kills civilian = civilians cries FUCK THE POLICE
what dont you get izzycraft?
It's one thing if the guy wasn't getting arrested for basically a violence charge. It's like the kid that gets shot for setting shit in fire in Greece WOW for serious lol okay i know you're mostly rioting about other shit maybe well you better be else it's what i call an overreaction.
I bet if he was pushed in front of a bart train during the fight no one would give a shit. So why give a shit for a man who clearly didn't give a shit.
if someone getting push in front of a train and you are so sure that no one gives a fuck then why do you give a fuck when people say fuck the police?
On January 08 2009 15:43 CDRdude wrote: Holy shit, this has turned into a full-blown riot O_O. The whole BART-shooting thing started a protest, and now it seems like it's blown all to hell.
(01-07) 21:13 PST Oakland -- A protest over the fatal shooting by a BART police officer of an unarmed man mushroomed into a violent confrontation tonight, as a faction of protesters smashed a police car and storefronts, set several cars on fire and blocked streets in downtown Oakland.
Protesters smashed the storefronts of McDonald's as well as stores called Creative African Braids and Oakland Yoon's Pharmacy. Cars along 14th Street were smashed, and some were set ablaze.
A woman walked out of Creative African Braids holding a baby in her arms.
"This is our business," she shouted. "This is our shop. This is what you call a protest?"
Nia Sykes, 24, of San Francisco, a protester who was with the group, said, "I feel like the night is going great. I feel like Oakland should make some noise. This is how we need to fight back.
"It's for the murder of a black male," said Sykes, who is black. The demonstration "is totally appropriate."
Sykes had little sympathy for the owner of Creative African Braids.
"She should be glad she just lost her business and not her life," Sykes said. She added that she did have one worry for the night: "I just hope nobody gets shot or killed."
Near 14th and Alice streets, Myron Bell was taking lessons in a step, a form of dance popular among African Americans, when he looked out the window and saw people jumping on his Lexus sedan.
Bell, 42, came out to find that almost all of his windows, including the front and back had been smashed and it appeared that someone had tried to set the car on fire.
"I'm for the cause," Bell said. "But I'm against the violence and destruction."
Nearby, Godhuli Bose stood near her smashed Toyota Corolla, and a protester walked by, repeatedly calling her a misogynist epithet.
"F- your car. F- your car," he said to Bose. Bose, a high school teacher: "I can't afford this."
The protest started peacefully shortly after 3 p.m. at the Fruitvale Station in Oakland, where BART police Officer Johannes Mehserle shot 22-year-old Oscar Grant of Hayward to death early New Year's Day. BART shut down the station well into the evening commute, although the demonstration there was peaceful.
However, shortly after nightfall, a group of roughly 200 protesters split off and head toward downtown Oakland, prompting the transit agency to close the Lake Merritt station.
Oakland Police Officer Michael Cardoza parked his car across the intersection of Eighth and Madison streets, to prevent traffic from flowing toward Broadway and into the protest. But he told The Chronicle that a group of 30 to 40 protesters quickly surrounded his car and started smashing it with bottles and rocks.
Cardoza jumped out of the car and said some protesters tried to set the car on fire, while others jumped on top of the hood - incidents repeatedly shown on television. Cardoza said the protesters "were trying to entice us into doing something."
A group of protesters also set a trash bin aflame, moving it adjacent to the police car.
Police threw tear gas into the group to disperse it, Sgt. Mark MacAulay said. After 8 p.m., there were numerous arrests.
"When you get that mob mentality, it can be dangerous," MacAulay said.
Other protesters marched on BART's 12th Street Station about 7 p.m., prompting the transit agency to close the downtown hub station even as it was reopening the Lake Merritt and Fruitvale stations.
Protesters blocked the intersection of 14th and Broadway, near the downtown BART station entrance. As police put on helmets and gas masks and stood in a line formation, protesters held signs that read, "Your idea of justice?" and "Jail Killer Cops."
One man lay in the intersection with his face down and his hands behind his back - seemingly evoking the position that Grant was in when he was shot.
Some protesters wore masks over their faces as they yelled at police. Roughly a dozen stood just a few feet away from police as they screamed at them. Chants included "pigs go home," "the fascist police, no justice, no peace" and "we are all Oscar Grant."
Mandingo Hayes, who is black, said he went to the protest because "we're tired of all these police agencies getting away with shooting unarmed black and Latino males."
Hayes, 36, downplayed the attack on the police car.
"For a police car to get abused, and for a person to get shot and killed, which would you rather be?" said Hayes, a construction worker from San Pablo.
The core group of protesters was about 40 people, several of whom were with Revolution Books, a Berkeley bookstore. A man distributing "The Revolution" newspaper shouted "This whole damn system is guilty!"
Earlier in the day, police had been largely passive. But at around 7:54 p.m., they began to push the crowd toward Lake Merritt. One officer shouted "Get Back! Get Back! Get Back!" As they forced protesters back, protesters smashed windows, cars and threw objects at police.
The proximity of this really shocks me, to go home from university for the weekend, I take the train through Oakland. Wow.
Wow.... Proof people are fucking retarded. So their answer to what they believe was senseless violence is... senseless violence?
Sometimes it is the only way this gets national attention.
This is not an isolated incident. I have personal experience with this kind of discrimination and every minority I know has had negative experiences with the police. I come from a rich suburb yet and still, this kinda thing still goes on. In fact, the dumb dumb head of police in my suburb just "resigned" because she openly told the city council that they were only stopping black people. This is not an isolated incident and just because you all don't have run-ins with the police doesn't mean it does not happen on a regular basis. There are some good police officers, but the nature of law enforcement breeds this kinda thinking.
On January 08 2009 15:43 CDRdude wrote: Holy shit, this has turned into a full-blown riot O_O. The whole BART-shooting thing started a protest, and now it seems like it's blown all to hell.
(01-07) 21:13 PST Oakland -- A protest over the fatal shooting by a BART police officer of an unarmed man mushroomed into a violent confrontation tonight, as a faction of protesters smashed a police car and storefronts, set several cars on fire and blocked streets in downtown Oakland.
Protesters smashed the storefronts of McDonald's as well as stores called Creative African Braids and Oakland Yoon's Pharmacy. Cars along 14th Street were smashed, and some were set ablaze.
A woman walked out of Creative African Braids holding a baby in her arms.
"This is our business," she shouted. "This is our shop. This is what you call a protest?"
Nia Sykes, 24, of San Francisco, a protester who was with the group, said, "I feel like the night is going great. I feel like Oakland should make some noise. This is how we need to fight back.
"It's for the murder of a black male," said Sykes, who is black. The demonstration "is totally appropriate."
Sykes had little sympathy for the owner of Creative African Braids.
"She should be glad she just lost her business and not her life," Sykes said. She added that she did have one worry for the night: "I just hope nobody gets shot or killed."
Near 14th and Alice streets, Myron Bell was taking lessons in a step, a form of dance popular among African Americans, when he looked out the window and saw people jumping on his Lexus sedan.
Bell, 42, came out to find that almost all of his windows, including the front and back had been smashed and it appeared that someone had tried to set the car on fire.
"I'm for the cause," Bell said. "But I'm against the violence and destruction."
Nearby, Godhuli Bose stood near her smashed Toyota Corolla, and a protester walked by, repeatedly calling her a misogynist epithet.
"F- your car. F- your car," he said to Bose. Bose, a high school teacher: "I can't afford this."
The protest started peacefully shortly after 3 p.m. at the Fruitvale Station in Oakland, where BART police Officer Johannes Mehserle shot 22-year-old Oscar Grant of Hayward to death early New Year's Day. BART shut down the station well into the evening commute, although the demonstration there was peaceful.
However, shortly after nightfall, a group of roughly 200 protesters split off and head toward downtown Oakland, prompting the transit agency to close the Lake Merritt station.
Oakland Police Officer Michael Cardoza parked his car across the intersection of Eighth and Madison streets, to prevent traffic from flowing toward Broadway and into the protest. But he told The Chronicle that a group of 30 to 40 protesters quickly surrounded his car and started smashing it with bottles and rocks.
Cardoza jumped out of the car and said some protesters tried to set the car on fire, while others jumped on top of the hood - incidents repeatedly shown on television. Cardoza said the protesters "were trying to entice us into doing something."
A group of protesters also set a trash bin aflame, moving it adjacent to the police car.
Police threw tear gas into the group to disperse it, Sgt. Mark MacAulay said. After 8 p.m., there were numerous arrests.
"When you get that mob mentality, it can be dangerous," MacAulay said.
Other protesters marched on BART's 12th Street Station about 7 p.m., prompting the transit agency to close the downtown hub station even as it was reopening the Lake Merritt and Fruitvale stations.
Protesters blocked the intersection of 14th and Broadway, near the downtown BART station entrance. As police put on helmets and gas masks and stood in a line formation, protesters held signs that read, "Your idea of justice?" and "Jail Killer Cops."
One man lay in the intersection with his face down and his hands behind his back - seemingly evoking the position that Grant was in when he was shot.
Some protesters wore masks over their faces as they yelled at police. Roughly a dozen stood just a few feet away from police as they screamed at them. Chants included "pigs go home," "the fascist police, no justice, no peace" and "we are all Oscar Grant."
Mandingo Hayes, who is black, said he went to the protest because "we're tired of all these police agencies getting away with shooting unarmed black and Latino males."
Hayes, 36, downplayed the attack on the police car.
"For a police car to get abused, and for a person to get shot and killed, which would you rather be?" said Hayes, a construction worker from San Pablo.
The core group of protesters was about 40 people, several of whom were with Revolution Books, a Berkeley bookstore. A man distributing "The Revolution" newspaper shouted "This whole damn system is guilty!"
Earlier in the day, police had been largely passive. But at around 7:54 p.m., they began to push the crowd toward Lake Merritt. One officer shouted "Get Back! Get Back! Get Back!" As they forced protesters back, protesters smashed windows, cars and threw objects at police.
The proximity of this really shocks me, to go home from university for the weekend, I take the train through Oakland. Wow.
Wow.... Proof people are fucking retarded. So their answer to what they believe was senseless violence is... senseless violence?
Sometimes it is the only way this gets national attention.
This is not an isolated incident. I have personal experience with this kind of discrimination and every minority I know has had negative experiences with the police. I come from a rich suburb yet and still, this kinda thing still goes on. In fact, the dumb dumb head of police in my suburb just "resigned" because she openly told the city council that they were only stopping black people. This is not an isolated incident and just because you all don't have run-ins with the police doesn't mean it does not happen on a regular basis. There are some good police officers, but the nature of law enforcement breeds this kinda thinking.
LOL DISCRIMINATION THEY WHERE ARRESTED FOR FIGHTING ON PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION while being drunk LOL in one of the most non racist area's in America yeah i'm sure the policeman was like"dam nigger gets what he gets" And have you ever stayed in Oakland they aren't rioting because of outrage it's because they can and most of them are idiots it was the bad part of Oakland anyways. It's like is Richmond had riots t-t yeah highest murder rate go piss off about the police not the people that instiage shit.
im just glad the riots did not result in more dead innocent people. however, if my car were damaged then maybe i would feel different about the police using more force to stop the riot. the people they interviewed in the article who were for the riots were probably poor, uneducated, blacks. sad that educated blacks in the area will endure in future law enforcement retribution.
oakland always has the stupidest fucking reasons to riot. remember in 2003 when they lost the super bowl? the rioters always have stupid reasons
"It's for the murder of a black male," said Sykes, who is black. The demonstration "is totally appropriate."
Sykes had little sympathy for the owner of Creative African Braids.
"She should be glad she just lost her business and not her life," Sykes said. She added that she did have one worry for the night: "I just hope nobody gets shot or killed."
On January 08 2009 15:43 CDRdude wrote: Holy shit, this has turned into a full-blown riot O_O. The whole BART-shooting thing started a protest, and now it seems like it's blown all to hell.
(01-07) 21:13 PST Oakland -- A protest over the fatal shooting by a BART police officer of an unarmed man mushroomed into a violent confrontation tonight, as a faction of protesters smashed a police car and storefronts, set several cars on fire and blocked streets in downtown Oakland.
Protesters smashed the storefronts of McDonald's as well as stores called Creative African Braids and Oakland Yoon's Pharmacy. Cars along 14th Street were smashed, and some were set ablaze.
A woman walked out of Creative African Braids holding a baby in her arms.
"This is our business," she shouted. "This is our shop. This is what you call a protest?"
Nia Sykes, 24, of San Francisco, a protester who was with the group, said, "I feel like the night is going great. I feel like Oakland should make some noise. This is how we need to fight back.
"It's for the murder of a black male," said Sykes, who is black. The demonstration "is totally appropriate."
Sykes had little sympathy for the owner of Creative African Braids.
"She should be glad she just lost her business and not her life," Sykes said. She added that she did have one worry for the night: "I just hope nobody gets shot or killed."
Near 14th and Alice streets, Myron Bell was taking lessons in a step, a form of dance popular among African Americans, when he looked out the window and saw people jumping on his Lexus sedan.
Bell, 42, came out to find that almost all of his windows, including the front and back had been smashed and it appeared that someone had tried to set the car on fire.
"I'm for the cause," Bell said. "But I'm against the violence and destruction."
Nearby, Godhuli Bose stood near her smashed Toyota Corolla, and a protester walked by, repeatedly calling her a misogynist epithet.
"F- your car. F- your car," he said to Bose. Bose, a high school teacher: "I can't afford this."
The protest started peacefully shortly after 3 p.m. at the Fruitvale Station in Oakland, where BART police Officer Johannes Mehserle shot 22-year-old Oscar Grant of Hayward to death early New Year's Day. BART shut down the station well into the evening commute, although the demonstration there was peaceful.
However, shortly after nightfall, a group of roughly 200 protesters split off and head toward downtown Oakland, prompting the transit agency to close the Lake Merritt station.
Oakland Police Officer Michael Cardoza parked his car across the intersection of Eighth and Madison streets, to prevent traffic from flowing toward Broadway and into the protest. But he told The Chronicle that a group of 30 to 40 protesters quickly surrounded his car and started smashing it with bottles and rocks.
Cardoza jumped out of the car and said some protesters tried to set the car on fire, while others jumped on top of the hood - incidents repeatedly shown on television. Cardoza said the protesters "were trying to entice us into doing something."
A group of protesters also set a trash bin aflame, moving it adjacent to the police car.
Police threw tear gas into the group to disperse it, Sgt. Mark MacAulay said. After 8 p.m., there were numerous arrests.
"When you get that mob mentality, it can be dangerous," MacAulay said.
Other protesters marched on BART's 12th Street Station about 7 p.m., prompting the transit agency to close the downtown hub station even as it was reopening the Lake Merritt and Fruitvale stations.
Protesters blocked the intersection of 14th and Broadway, near the downtown BART station entrance. As police put on helmets and gas masks and stood in a line formation, protesters held signs that read, "Your idea of justice?" and "Jail Killer Cops."
One man lay in the intersection with his face down and his hands behind his back - seemingly evoking the position that Grant was in when he was shot.
Some protesters wore masks over their faces as they yelled at police. Roughly a dozen stood just a few feet away from police as they screamed at them. Chants included "pigs go home," "the fascist police, no justice, no peace" and "we are all Oscar Grant."
Mandingo Hayes, who is black, said he went to the protest because "we're tired of all these police agencies getting away with shooting unarmed black and Latino males."
Hayes, 36, downplayed the attack on the police car.
"For a police car to get abused, and for a person to get shot and killed, which would you rather be?" said Hayes, a construction worker from San Pablo.
The core group of protesters was about 40 people, several of whom were with Revolution Books, a Berkeley bookstore. A man distributing "The Revolution" newspaper shouted "This whole damn system is guilty!"
Earlier in the day, police had been largely passive. But at around 7:54 p.m., they began to push the crowd toward Lake Merritt. One officer shouted "Get Back! Get Back! Get Back!" As they forced protesters back, protesters smashed windows, cars and threw objects at police.
The proximity of this really shocks me, to go home from university for the weekend, I take the train through Oakland. Wow.
Wow.... Proof people are fucking retarded. So their answer to what they believe was senseless violence is... senseless violence?
So true, natural selection fails in all departments for mankind.
On January 08 2009 23:57 Nitrogen wrote: oakland always has the stupidest fucking reasons to riot. remember in 2003 when they lost the super bowl? the rioters always have stupid reasons
On January 08 2009 15:43 CDRdude wrote: Holy shit, this has turned into a full-blown riot O_O. The whole BART-shooting thing started a protest, and now it seems like it's blown all to hell.
(01-07) 21:13 PST Oakland -- A protest over the fatal shooting by a BART police officer of an unarmed man mushroomed into a violent confrontation tonight, as a faction of protesters smashed a police car and storefronts, set several cars on fire and blocked streets in downtown Oakland.
Protesters smashed the storefronts of McDonald's as well as stores called Creative African Braids and Oakland Yoon's Pharmacy. Cars along 14th Street were smashed, and some were set ablaze.
A woman walked out of Creative African Braids holding a baby in her arms.
"This is our business," she shouted. "This is our shop. This is what you call a protest?"
Nia Sykes, 24, of San Francisco, a protester who was with the group, said, "I feel like the night is going great. I feel like Oakland should make some noise. This is how we need to fight back.
"It's for the murder of a black male," said Sykes, who is black. The demonstration "is totally appropriate."
Sykes had little sympathy for the owner of Creative African Braids.
"She should be glad she just lost her business and not her life," Sykes said. She added that she did have one worry for the night: "I just hope nobody gets shot or killed."
Near 14th and Alice streets, Myron Bell was taking lessons in a step, a form of dance popular among African Americans, when he looked out the window and saw people jumping on his Lexus sedan.
Bell, 42, came out to find that almost all of his windows, including the front and back had been smashed and it appeared that someone had tried to set the car on fire.
"I'm for the cause," Bell said. "But I'm against the violence and destruction."
Nearby, Godhuli Bose stood near her smashed Toyota Corolla, and a protester walked by, repeatedly calling her a misogynist epithet.
"F- your car. F- your car," he said to Bose. Bose, a high school teacher: "I can't afford this."
The protest started peacefully shortly after 3 p.m. at the Fruitvale Station in Oakland, where BART police Officer Johannes Mehserle shot 22-year-old Oscar Grant of Hayward to death early New Year's Day. BART shut down the station well into the evening commute, although the demonstration there was peaceful.
However, shortly after nightfall, a group of roughly 200 protesters split off and head toward downtown Oakland, prompting the transit agency to close the Lake Merritt station.
Oakland Police Officer Michael Cardoza parked his car across the intersection of Eighth and Madison streets, to prevent traffic from flowing toward Broadway and into the protest. But he told The Chronicle that a group of 30 to 40 protesters quickly surrounded his car and started smashing it with bottles and rocks.
Cardoza jumped out of the car and said some protesters tried to set the car on fire, while others jumped on top of the hood - incidents repeatedly shown on television. Cardoza said the protesters "were trying to entice us into doing something."
A group of protesters also set a trash bin aflame, moving it adjacent to the police car.
Police threw tear gas into the group to disperse it, Sgt. Mark MacAulay said. After 8 p.m., there were numerous arrests.
"When you get that mob mentality, it can be dangerous," MacAulay said.
Other protesters marched on BART's 12th Street Station about 7 p.m., prompting the transit agency to close the downtown hub station even as it was reopening the Lake Merritt and Fruitvale stations.
Protesters blocked the intersection of 14th and Broadway, near the downtown BART station entrance. As police put on helmets and gas masks and stood in a line formation, protesters held signs that read, "Your idea of justice?" and "Jail Killer Cops."
One man lay in the intersection with his face down and his hands behind his back - seemingly evoking the position that Grant was in when he was shot.
Some protesters wore masks over their faces as they yelled at police. Roughly a dozen stood just a few feet away from police as they screamed at them. Chants included "pigs go home," "the fascist police, no justice, no peace" and "we are all Oscar Grant."
Mandingo Hayes, who is black, said he went to the protest because "we're tired of all these police agencies getting away with shooting unarmed black and Latino males."
Hayes, 36, downplayed the attack on the police car.
"For a police car to get abused, and for a person to get shot and killed, which would you rather be?" said Hayes, a construction worker from San Pablo.
The core group of protesters was about 40 people, several of whom were with Revolution Books, a Berkeley bookstore. A man distributing "The Revolution" newspaper shouted "This whole damn system is guilty!"
Earlier in the day, police had been largely passive. But at around 7:54 p.m., they began to push the crowd toward Lake Merritt. One officer shouted "Get Back! Get Back! Get Back!" As they forced protesters back, protesters smashed windows, cars and threw objects at police.
The proximity of this really shocks me, to go home from university for the weekend, I take the train through Oakland. Wow.
Wow.... Proof people are fucking retarded. So their answer to what they believe was senseless violence is... senseless violence?
Sometimes it is the only way this gets national attention.
This is not an isolated incident. I have personal experience with this kind of discrimination and every minority I know has had negative experiences with the police. I come from a rich suburb yet and still, this kinda thing still goes on. In fact, the dumb dumb head of police in my suburb just "resigned" because she openly told the city council that they were only stopping black people. This is not an isolated incident and just because you all don't have run-ins with the police doesn't mean it does not happen on a regular basis. There are some good police officers, but the nature of law enforcement breeds this kinda thinking.
LOL DISCRIMINATION THEY WHERE ARRESTED FOR FIGHTING ON PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION while being drunk LOL in one of the most non racist area's in America yeah i'm sure the policeman was like"dam nigger gets what he gets" And have you ever stayed in Oakland they aren't rioting because of outrage it's because they can and most of them are idiots it was the bad part of Oakland anyways. It's like is Richmond had riots t-t yeah highest murder rate go piss off about the police not the people that instiage shit.
Actually I was talking about the original crime, not about the riots.
I would appreciate if you did not use racial epithets. I have stayed in Oakland before. I stay with my friends who live in the "bad" part of Oakland and Richmond all the time all the time. Have you ever stayed in the "bad" part of Oakland, I doubt it?
I know I will not convince most of you about the strained and complicated relationship between minorities and the police, but I will say this. The comments in this thread show a complete lack of understanding of the relationship between the police and minorities in the United States. This makes sense because the average TL poster is teenage middle to upper class Asian or white poster. However, given this fact I encourage you to educate yourself on the problem before you make uninformed comments like....
LOL THOSE 'guys aRE SUCH idiotS why would THEY DESTROY THEIR OWN OWN STUFF WHEN A GUY DIES
This is not representative of most police officers in the United States. 99.99% of police officers are good police officers,
Also, with a little research you can find BART police are allowed to carry tasers on their dominant (right hand left hand) side.
I didn't read this thread to see if the video was posted, but the confused look on the officer's face is pretty clear post-shot. (shorter video than the one in the OP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQxBg5Jxp7c)
Let's not go on a witch hunt, let due process take its course.
It's also pretty clear the guy is resisting being handcuffed and isn't actually handcuffed, since his hand comes out after being shot. Don't take everything in the biased article at face value. It is relatively common for cops to threaten (or actually) use a taser on a subject who is resisting arrest. It causes less injury than physically forcing a man to put his arms behind his back.
would take some serious lack of training to mistake a handgun for a taser. I guess if you had adrenaline going you wouldn't notice the weight difference, but again, lack of experience... shouldn't even have a gun. hope he gets all that he deserves.
In the second video, it is clear that the cop pulls out his gun at 1:23 and then immediately stands up and shoots the victim at 1:26. If that's not intent to kill, then I don't know what is. It's not like he was standing there aiming his gun at the victim for an hour waiting for his finger to slip.
Also, I love how people assume that all cops are the true "role-model" citizens that everyone should look up to. How many cops graduated from college? Exactly. They're just ordinary people (with lower than average intelligence), except they get "training" and have the authority to carry a gun around and "accidentally" shoot people.
The police officer is pleading that he didn't know that he got out his gun instead of his taser... hmm...
Pretty good defense. I'm going to go with a conviction of either involuntary manslaughter, or something less like negligent death?
If you don't know you're doing something (mens rea) you're not guilty of it. Ie. if you get in a stolen car that you don't know is stolen, you're not guilty of riding in a stolen car. If you pull a taser you think is a gun and shoot someone, you're not guilty of murder. Of course, you have to prove that you didn't know it and the jury has to accept it. I just can't see there being any motive in this case for a murder though. Cops don't just run around executing people.
In this case I expect that the prosecution can't prove that the cop knew it was a gun (they are similar, lets be honest here). They can prove he SHOULD have known it was a gun, via training and such, and that he acted rashly. But from the videos, a murder conviction doesn't seem appropriate (but a lesser punishment does).
I'm actually sympathetic towards the officer since it looks like he just had a bad day (being a cop is a shit job, if you hadn't infered it from the peanut gallery in the videos) but he did shoot someone and he does have to be punished.
On July 03 2010 13:29 sikyon wrote: The police officer is pleading that he didn't know that he got out his gun instead of his taser... hmm...
Pretty good defense. I'm going to go with a conviction of either involuntary manslaughter, or something less like negligent death?
If you don't know you're doing something (mens rea) you're not guilty of it. Ie. if you get in a stolen car that you don't know is stolen, you're not guilty of riding in a stolen car. If you pull a taser you think is a gun and shoot someone, you're not guilty of murder. Of course, you have to prove that you didn't know it and the jury has to accept it. I just can't see there being any motive in this case for a murder though. Cops don't just run around executing people.
In this case I expect that the prosecution can't prove that the cop knew it was a gun (they are similar, lets be honest here). They can prove he SHOULD have known it was a gun, via training and such, and that he acted rashly. But from the videos, a murder conviction doesn't seem appropriate (but a lesser punishment does).
I'm actually sympathetic towards the officer since it looks like he just had a bad day (being a cop is a shit job, if you hadn't infered it from the peanut gallery in the videos) but he did shoot someone and he does have to be punished.
I agree with most of your points, especially that a cop should(and likely did) know the difference between a gun and a taser. However, I have no sympathy for the cop even if he had the worse day of his life. The guy he shot has no more days of his life. Damn... punching him, kicking him, throwing him against a wall, I could sympathize with that, but not shooting the guy.
On July 03 2010 13:29 sikyon wrote: The police officer is pleading that he didn't know that he got out his gun instead of his taser... hmm...
Pretty good defense. I'm going to go with a conviction of either involuntary manslaughter, or something less like negligent death?
If you don't know you're doing something (mens rea) you're not guilty of it. Ie. if you get in a stolen car that you don't know is stolen, you're not guilty of riding in a stolen car. If you pull a taser you think is a gun and shoot someone, you're not guilty of murder. Of course, you have to prove that you didn't know it and the jury has to accept it. I just can't see there being any motive in this case for a murder though. Cops don't just run around executing people.
In this case I expect that the prosecution can't prove that the cop knew it was a gun (they are similar, lets be honest here). They can prove he SHOULD have known it was a gun, via training and such, and that he acted rashly. But from the videos, a murder conviction doesn't seem appropriate (but a lesser punishment does).
I'm actually sympathetic towards the officer since it looks like he just had a bad day (being a cop is a shit job, if you hadn't infered it from the peanut gallery in the videos) but he did shoot someone and he does have to be punished.
Are you kidding me dude???? "WHOOPS!!! I didn't mean to shoot that hooker right in the face; I thought I was holding my god damned dick. My bad, I've just always had this weird problem with remembering what I just put in my hand and just pretend like it shouldn't make any difference instead." DURRR
Do you really think that defending somebody on the grounds that they are so oblivious to MAYBE pulling the trigger to a gun or not is actually a good idea? Especially when that somebody's ENTIRE purpose is about enforcing the law and to keep civil order??
What a fucking defense. "Well... we just didn't train this guy well enough for him to realize when he's holding a gun while he's working." Oh well, shit happens right?? Just move on already, who cares about those little details.
The reasons that someone desires to be an officer are precisely the same reasons why they shouldn't be allowed to become one. They develop a false sense of authority over others and start believing they are above the law. That mentality is exactly what incidents like this are born from.
My father has been a private investigator for decades, and you wouldn't believe some of the fucked up things that happens to innocent people because of how twisted and evil some of our police officers really are. This kind of shit happens ALL-THE-TIME and it makes me scared for my life sometimes.
He's in the middle of writing a book about how corrupt our judicial system is. While he's writing he'll sometimes have to call me and vent while he's crying his eyes out and cursing the system to death for some of the shit he is recalling that's happened in the past to GOOD PEOPLE.
Imagine you're that kids parent sitting at home. You get a call from the local precinct to be informed that your son was killed by some overly-cocky fuck with a gun in uniform that can't assess the situation OR any consequences for his actions... and to realize that the system people like him represent are this countries LAW ENFORCEMENT!!!
GOOD JOB MISTER SHINY BADGE MAN, WAY TO KEEP THE BAD GUYS OFF THE STREET! I WANT TO GROW UP TO BE JUST LIKE YOU AND MAKE PEOPLE QUIVER AT THE SIGHT ME JUST TO THINK THAT THE NEXT ONE COULD BE THEM! =D! =D!
Some of you guys are fucking idiots. Policemans are bad cause they gave you a ticket right? SO THEY MUST BE BAD CAUSE THEY SHOT SOMEBODY TOO.
The tasers the cops use here are bright yellow and a different shape (more blocky, trigger also feels different). Why? because studies done by my local department have shown that under stressful situations, tasers and guns can be mistaken for each other if they are too similar. Theres a visual indicator here so that cops can easily tell which is which. Why don't all departments do what mine does? Cause this is the third richest county in the nation. Our county PD has more funding then some state departments do. We are on the bleeding edge of LE.
Pretty much, here or LAPD are the trailblazers. LA cause they need the stuff to keep up. Us because we are rich as shit and can afford new toys.
// How much training do you think police even have with shooting? and with the taser?
People shouldn't lump police officers all together, personally i judge them based on precinct.
A police officer is cocky? People who attracted to that kind of job generally are, type A personalities, you don't want a police officer not to be a go getter.
You also need to remember the guy is dammed if he's convicted dammed if he's not. The police are human they make mistakes in stressful situations.
People get wrongly arrested and then instead of sorting it out at the station they cause even more commotion putting more stress on the officers.
Also you may quiver at the police but i don't and will never they are to respected and held to a standard, not feared or hated it is people fearing and hating that make situations worse.
IMO, unless the jury hangs on the charge, the officer will be convicted.
I've watched the video and I am very happy I am not a juror in this case. It could range from second degree murder to involuntary manslaughter.
Just guessing, but if the jury remains in deliberation much longer, it won't be a murder conviction. I just hope some imbecile on the jury doesn't hold out on murder and force the jury to acquit.
The prosecution should have asked for just voluntary or involuntary manslaughter, rather than throwing murder in there. But with a jury pool as exists in LA, maybe they will get murder.
On July 03 2010 17:06 Bananas wrote: Some people shouldn't be cops i guess.
Nope not everyone is qualified, there really are villains in officer uniforms but thankfully in this country they aren't the majority, there are also people who don't have the stomach for that kind of work and make mistakes due to it.
On July 03 2010 17:19 Number41 wrote: Tasers should not be standard issue. They are very dangerous weapons, often a subject of abuse, and a crutch for lazy police.
If they are used they should be kept on the opposite side of the belt from the gun.
Yes tazers are subject to abuse, just due to the part where if you taze someone it's pretty easy to make them complaint, vs having to hold them down or w.e while you cuff/ziptie them then they claim you used excessive force when you were arresting them. As short term tazering causes no dmg it's seen as an effective short cut to the worried some police officer.
On July 03 2010 17:19 Zidane wrote: You would think that if you were a cop you would make damn well sure you knew which part of your belt had a GUN and which had a taser.
You would think you would remember that you have your wallet in your pants already as you run around in the morning almost late for work as you looking for your wallet.
On July 03 2010 17:33 Zidane wrote: Actually no, because a wallet is not a GUN (caps for emphasis).
but stress is stress and peoples minds are hardly reliable in terms of remembering.
On July 03 2010 17:08 Number41 wrote: IMO, unless the jury hangs on the charge, the officer will be convicted.
I've watched the video and I am very happy I am not a juror in this case. It could range from second degree murder to involuntary manslaughter.
Just guessing, but if the jury remains in deliberation much longer, it won't be a murder conviction. I just hope some imbecile on the jury doesn't hold out on murder and force the jury to acquit.
The prosecution should have asked for just voluntary or involuntary manslaughter, rather than throwing murder in there. But with a jury pool as exists in LA, maybe they will get murder.
It's likely they are pushing for murder because he was a police officer, usually officers aren't treated so kindly in court, they are held to a much stricter standard.
On July 03 2010 17:06 Bananas wrote: Some people shouldn't be cops i guess.
Nope not everyone is qualified, there really are villains in officer uniforms but thankfully in this country they aren't the majority, there are also people who don't have the stomach for that kind of work and make mistakes due to it.
Thats true in every profession. The problem is you can't get away with being a shitty cop for long. And the consequences are usually bigger.
On July 03 2010 17:19 Number41 wrote: Tasers should not be standard issue. They are very dangerous weapons, often a subject of abuse, and a crutch for lazy police.
If they are used they should be kept on the opposite side of the belt from the gun.
On the other hand, tasers deflect situations and defuse incidents before they even start. And usually arn't standard issue anyways. They cost too much to issue them to every officer.
The problem that some police have with putting the taser on the weakside is that it means you have to have it in a crossdraw rig, unless you are going to be shooting it offhanded. Crossdraw rigs are slower, and by their nature are easier for somebody facing you to access then it is for you to. Compounding that is the fact that taser holsters generally don't have the retention that firearm holsters do.
Here, tasers must be crossdrawn or on a thigh holster instead of the belt strongside.
On July 03 2010 17:19 Zidane wrote: You would think that if you were a cop you would make damn well sure you knew which part of your belt had a GUN and which had a taser.
This. The problem is that there likely was not department policy on taser placement. Or not a good one. The other problem is that there is never enough manpower and funding to allow as much training as you want // need.
I kinda foreshadowed before, but cops rarely even touch service weapons. Then again, it can vary as well. I know a cop who has worked 4 years now and only used his gun for quals and requals. Shooting a little once a year really does not give you the familiarity you would want with a gun. Make them train more? Issue of time and money. Ammo can get expensive really fast. Police should be proficient with tools that dangerous! Yea, but radios and cars are important too.
On July 03 2010 17:30 semantics wrote: Yes tazers are subject to abuse, just due to the part where if you taze someone it's pretty easy to make them complaint, vs having to hold them down or w.e while you cuff/ziptie them then they claim you used excessive force when you were arresting them. As short term tazering causes no dmg it's seen as an effective short cut to the worried some police officer.
Many individuals have died after being tased. To say it causes no damage is a bit naive. Many responsible police departments won't use tasers for just that reason. Unfortunately, laziness prevails.
On July 03 2010 17:19 Number41 wrote: Tasers should not be standard issue. They are very dangerous weapons, often a subject of abuse, and a crutch for lazy police.
If they are used they should be kept on the opposite side of the belt from the gun.
Yes tazers are subject to abuse, just due to the part where if you taze someone it's pretty easy to make them complaint, vs having to hold them down or w.e while you cuff/ziptie them then they claim you used excessive force when you were arresting them. As short term tazering causes no dmg it's seen as an effective short cut to the worried some police officer.
On July 03 2010 17:19 Zidane wrote: You would think that if you were a cop you would make damn well sure you knew which part of your belt had a GUN and which had a taser.
You would think you would remember that you have your wallet in your pants already as you run around in the morning almost late for work as you looking for your wallet.
What a horrifically terrible analogy to make. Is my wallet in my pants or OOPS, I just shot a guy that is laying flat on the concrete, hands behind his back, 3 officers surrounding him, one with his knee on the back of his neck, and I decide to stand up, pull my gun out, and shoot him.
On July 03 2010 17:33 Zidane wrote: Actually no, because a wallet is not a GUN (caps for emphasis).
but stress is stress and peoples minds are hardly reliable in terms of remembering.
Another golden post. "Stress is stress" ..... When was the last time you killed a guy because you had a big test coming up? What about when a couple people called out of work one day, and you had to work harder and stay late?
Officers that can't handle a piss of a situation like this one and not freak out and kill a guy randomly is what I was talking about.
On July 03 2010 17:19 Zidane wrote: You would think that if you were a cop you would make damn well sure you knew which part of your belt had a GUN and which had a taser.
This. The problem is that there likely was not department policy on taser placement. Or not a good one. The other problem is that there is never enough manpower and funding to allow as much training as you want // need.
I kinda foreshadowed before, but cops rarely even touch service weapons. Then again, it can vary as well. I know a cop who has worked 4 years now and only used his gun for quals and requals. Shooting a little once a year really does not give you the familiarity you would want with a gun. Make them train more? Issue of time and money. Ammo can get expensive really fast. Police should be proficient with tools that dangerous! Yea, but radios and cars are important too.
First of all, I would hope that officers not NEEDING to use their firearms if not necessary is a good thing... But to say that his unfamiliarity with a gun is a justification to him just grabbing anything with a trigger on it and shooting the guy before he even realizes what he grabbed as a plausible defense?? Come on man.
On July 03 2010 17:30 semantics wrote: Yes tazers are subject to abuse, just due to the part where if you taze someone it's pretty easy to make them complaint, vs having to hold them down or w.e while you cuff/ziptie them then they claim you used excessive force when you were arresting them. As short term tazering causes no dmg it's seen as an effective short cut to the worried some police officer.
Many individuals have died after being tased. To say it causes no damage is a bit naive. Many responsible police departments won't use tasers for just that reason. Unfortunately, laziness prevails.
There is a small chance of injury or death that can occur when tazing a person but it's particular to a person. Certain people are at risk to complications as a result to tazing, just like some people are at risk to having their bones broken by a person man handling them to the ground it's a matter of risk reward, tazers are a nice alternative but officers need to know when to use them.
The usage of a tazer in that situation was the wrong decision. As it is usually the policy to only use it as an alternative to a more lethal weapon such as a gun but the officer is not in a situation where the officer could be mortailly wounded such as suspects fleeing or very violent suspects who aren't exactly going to kill someone but make it really hard to arrest them and are likely to injure people in the process.
On July 03 2010 17:19 Number41 wrote: Tasers should not be standard issue. They are very dangerous weapons, often a subject of abuse, and a crutch for lazy police.
If they are used they should be kept on the opposite side of the belt from the gun.
Yes tazers are subject to abuse, just due to the part where if you taze someone it's pretty easy to make them complaint, vs having to hold them down or w.e while you cuff/ziptie them then they claim you used excessive force when you were arresting them. As short term tazering causes no dmg it's seen as an effective short cut to the worried some police officer.
On July 03 2010 17:19 Zidane wrote: You would think that if you were a cop you would make damn well sure you knew which part of your belt had a GUN and which had a taser.
You would think you would remember that you have your wallet in your pants already as you run around in the morning almost late for work as you looking for your wallet.
What a horrifically terrible analogy to make. Is my wallet in my pants or OOPS, I just shot a guy that is laying flat on the concrete, hands behind his back, 3 officers surrounding him, one with his knee on the back of his neck, and I decide to stand up, pull my gun out, and shoot him.
On July 03 2010 17:33 Zidane wrote: Actually no, because a wallet is not a GUN (caps for emphasis).
but stress is stress and peoples minds are hardly reliable in terms of remembering.
Another golden post. "Stress is stress" ..... When was the last time you killed a guy because you had a big test coming up? What about when a couple people called out of work one day, and you had to work harder and stay late?
Officers that can't handle a piss of a situation like this one and not freak out and kill a guy randomly is what I was talking about.
Also stress is just stress, the response is particular to a person, but the fight/flight response is the same as someone who is about to loose their job and the same someone who is about to get mugged. It's closer to a quantifiable response not a situation specific response. And it's not a matter of the officer dealing with that stress but the officer making the right, lawful decisions while stressed. So it's a matter of the training that he is receiving before hand.
it's not a pretty analogy but it's not that far off.
On July 03 2010 18:08 CatfooD wrote: But to say that his unfamiliarity with a gun is a justification to him just grabbing anything with a trigger on it and shooting the guy before he even realizes what he grabbed as a plausible defense?? Come on man.
I understand that to be one of the main arguments of the defense. It is somewhat plausible; maybe not to you but to 1 in 12 jurors, perhaps. The other argument is that it had similar trigger characteristics.
I think that is the argument that will prevail on the charge of murder in the second degree.
The question will remain of voluntary or involuntary. Basically, was what the officer expected of the suspect reasonable.
On July 03 2010 18:16 semantics wrote: There is a small chance of injury or death that can occur when tazing a person but it's particular to a person. Certain people are at risk to complications as a result to tazing, just like some people are at risk to having their bones broken by a person man handling them to the ground it's a matter of risk reward, tazers are a nice alternative but officers need to know when to use them.
The usage of a tazer in that situation was the wrong decision. As it is usually the policy to only use it as an alternative to a more lethal weapon such as a gun but the officer is not in a situation where the officer could be mortailly wounded such as suspects fleeing or very violent suspects who aren't exactly going to kill someone but make it really hard to arrest them and are likely to injure people in the process. .
Well, there is a high rate of death that occurs when the tased suspect is under the influence of cocaine. Should an uncooperative suspect (on cocaine) be subject to potentially lethal force because he will not comply with direct orders? Potential death versus injury to the suspect or an officer?
Many jurisdictions have decided they can't afford the liability.
On July 03 2010 18:16 semantics wrote: There is a small chance of injury or death that can occur when tazing a person but it's particular to a person. Certain people are at risk to complications as a result to tazing, just like some people are at risk to having their bones broken by a person man handling them to the ground it's a matter of risk reward, tazers are a nice alternative but officers need to know when to use them.
The usage of a tazer in that situation was the wrong decision. As it is usually the policy to only use it as an alternative to a more lethal weapon such as a gun but the officer is not in a situation where the officer could be mortailly wounded such as suspects fleeing or very violent suspects who aren't exactly going to kill someone but make it really hard to arrest them and are likely to injure people in the process. .
Well, there is a high rate of death that occurs when the tased suspect is under the influence of cocaine. Should an uncooperative suspect (on cocaine) be subject to potentially lethal force because he will not comply with direct orders? Potential death versus injury to the suspect or an officer?
Many jurisdictions have decided they can't afford the liability.
Edit: Sorry for the double post
obvious solution have officer run with a defibrillator in their patrol car :D
Again, risk/reward and tazers are coming under fire, but frankly i wouldn't mind them as long as they were only used in certain situations and properly. In a situation where people can get hurt but not necessarily killed the tazer fits into a nice spot between the officer having to use a nightstick and a gun.
Ofc there are other things like pepper sprays which are even less of a risk of anything lethal. But it sucks to use one it's nasty shit and usually the user gets a bit of the pain of that crap during use. And you can't exactly pepper spray someone running away.
The fact of the matter is, the cop should not have had his gun pulled out at anytime and not had it trained on the man. For fucks sake the man was on his stomach, you should only aim a gun at something if you intent to kill it. Guns should never be used as a 'threat', their purpose is to kill.
I am not a big fan of watching people getting killed so I didn't watch the video. However, from what I gathered from previous posts the guy was already on the ground, so what's the point of aiming a fucking gun at him? Also, they restrained him because he was in a brawl, right? Did he have any weapon in the first place? Why the hell would you pull a gun on an unarmed person, especially when there are several cops around that person? To me it sounds like some gun nut trying to be cool with his weapon and eventually messing up completely. I can't imagine that it was intentional. He probably pulled the trigger by accident or the gun discharged for some other reason, but it doesn't change the fact that it is plain stupid to point a gun at an unarmed person that's lying flat on the floor waiting to be cuffed.
Again, risk/reward and tazers are coming under fire, but frankly i wouldn't mind them as long as they were only used in certain situations and properly. In a situation where people can get hurt but not necessarily killed the tazer fits into a nice spot between the officer having to use a nightstick and a gun.
There is no guarantee that they will be used appropriately as long as humans wield them. The chance of inappropriate usage is even higher noting that a large number of police officers (any country) are lowlifes on a power trip, not the dignified, respectful and mature people that they really should be when given so much dangerous potential.
Again, risk/reward and tazers are coming under fire, but frankly i wouldn't mind them as long as they were only used in certain situations and properly. In a situation where people can get hurt but not necessarily killed the tazer fits into a nice spot between the officer having to use a nightstick and a gun.
There is no guarantee that they will be used appropriately as long as humans wield them. The chance of inappropriate usage is even higher noting that a large number of police officers (any country) are lowlifes on a power trip, not the dignified, respectful and mature people that they really should be when given so much dangerous potential.
Right.
One could also say that when you have to deal with verbal abuse, violent resistance, thugs with firearms, you or your buddy will eventually make a mistake. And when these mistakes keep on happening, sometimes people die because of it. Police officers are only human too, and I dare say, the number that are actually as bad as you claim is very small.
I know the world would be a fucked up place without these pigs, but seriously they need to GTFO i remember when i was 18 sitting with some friends getting stoned in a field and we got "stormed" in on by like 10 pigs they searched the cabin found a "5" lump of tac (5 pounds worth) and proceeded to arrest me and take me back to the station, god it was a ball the size of a 2p >> fucking pigs always starting a jihad against smoking weed.
On July 03 2010 17:30 semantics wrote: Yes tazers are subject to abuse, just due to the part where if you taze someone it's pretty easy to make them complaint, vs having to hold them down or w.e while you cuff/ziptie them then they claim you used excessive force when you were arresting them. As short term tazering causes no dmg it's seen as an effective short cut to the worried some police officer.
Many individuals have died after being tased. To say it causes no damage is a bit naive. Many responsible police departments won't use tasers for just that reason. Unfortunately, laziness prevails.
If by many you mean a few that had heart problems then yes. Even more individuals have died due to chest compression(suffocation really) from an officer (or even a bouncer) sitting on top of them because they keep struggling. Most every department that can afford them uses them. Tazers are anything but a crutch for laziness.
On July 03 2010 18:28 Number41 wrote: Should an uncooperative suspect (on cocaine) be subject to potentially lethal force because he will not comply with direct orders? Potential death versus injury to the suspect or an officer?
Yes. Mace does not work as well as one hopes it can, batons are too violent looking, tazers are the optimal solution. Or would you rather have cops just shoot them to begin with?
On July 03 2010 17:19 Zidane wrote: You would think that if you were a cop you would make damn well sure you knew which part of your belt had a GUN and which had a taser.
This. The problem is that there likely was not department policy on taser placement. Or not a good one. The other problem is that there is never enough manpower and funding to allow as much training as you want // need.
I kinda foreshadowed before, but cops rarely even touch service weapons. Then again, it can vary as well. I know a cop who has worked 4 years now and only used his gun for quals and requals. Shooting a little once a year really does not give you the familiarity you would want with a gun. Make them train more? Issue of time and money. Ammo can get expensive really fast. Police should be proficient with tools that dangerous! Yea, but radios and cars are important too.
First of all, I would hope that officers not NEEDING to use their firearms if not necessary is a good thing... But to say that his unfamiliarity with a gun is a justification to him just grabbing anything with a trigger on it and shooting the guy before he even realizes what he grabbed as a plausible defense?? Come on man.
*headdesk*
Yes, officers not needing to use firearms is a good thing. Thats why the tazers you don't like exist. Do you know the use of force continuum? They nicely bridge the gap between physical action and lethal force.
Do you think that a police officer would more likely decide "Fuck it I don't want to deal with this dude not wanting to be arrested, I'll just shoot him in the back in front of people video taping this and a whole bunch of eyewitnesses."
or
"This guy needs to stop resisting being put in handcuffs. I'll taze him so that the other officers can get him in cuffs"
On July 03 2010 18:44 NotGood- wrote: The fact of the matter is, the cop should not have had his gun pulled out at anytime and not had it trained on the man. For fucks sake the man was on his stomach, you should only aim a gun at something if you intent to kill it. Guns should never be used as a 'threat', their purpose is to kill.
The point is he did not intend to use his gun at all. He lost situational awareness due to a lack of training (which isn't his fault but the department's) and reached for the wrong thing (department's fault for having shitty policies).
And on the contrary, display of a gun is very effective. I'm not advocating pulling a gun every time you want somebody to do something, but there is a lot you can do with a firearm short of killing somebody. You sound very much like a person with basic basic gun handling skills and knowledge. So allow me to pose a question. You exit a pool hall // rest stop (anywhere really). A bunch of people do not like you. They block your path to your car and your exit. They make you aware of their bad intentions. Do you A) draw your CCW and start firing immediately. B) Wait for them to start punching at you before you draw and start shooting, or C) display your weapon, tell them you would rather not shoot them, but that you have no desire for a physical confrontation and that they should walk away.
On July 03 2010 19:55 PaddyPower wrote: I know the world would be a fucked up place without these pigs, but seriously they need to GTFO i remember when i was 18 sitting with some friends getting stoned in a field and we got "stormed" in on by like 10 pigs they searched the cabin found a "5" lump of tac (5 pounds worth) and proceeded to arrest me and take me back to the station, god it was a ball the size of a 2p >> fucking pigs always starting a jihad against smoking weed.
Possible, though it can't really be heard what the officers are saying and what instructions they are giving him. If they're saying "you're going to be tazed, stop resisting", he might be off with manslaughter. Yeah it doesn't really look good, but there's a witness sitting right next to them that could probably give a better account than a blurry video could.
Edit: The sentence for such a crime is 2-4 years in prison and up to $10,000 fine. It turns out there was a gun enhancement which can increase the sentence by up to 10 years.
Oh hey guys, since a white man was racist to a black man, lets pour into the streets, scaring almost all of the businesses in the area which are mostly run by minorities and destroy their business. I mean we are only in the worst economic recession since the great depression, but those businesses wouldnt mind that we take a day and a half worth of their profits, rob their stores, and at that we waste money totaling over a million dollars to monitor and make sure these dumbasses dont kill anyone.
On July 03 2010 19:55 PaddyPower wrote: I know the world would be a fucked up place without these pigs, but seriously they need to GTFO i remember when i was 18 sitting with some friends getting stoned in a field and we got "stormed" in on by like 10 pigs they searched the cabin found a "5" lump of tac (5 pounds worth) and proceeded to arrest me and take me back to the station, god it was a ball the size of a 2p >> fucking pigs always starting a jihad against smoking weed.
hahaha you want to remove the thin blue line so you can smoke some weed. Sounds like you're going places
On July 03 2010 19:55 PaddyPower wrote: I know the world would be a fucked up place without these pigs, but seriously they need to GTFO i remember when i was 18 sitting with some friends getting stoned in a field and we got "stormed" in on by like 10 pigs they searched the cabin found a "5" lump of tac (5 pounds worth) and proceeded to arrest me and take me back to the station, god it was a ball the size of a 2p >> fucking pigs always starting a jihad against smoking weed.
Lol so you don't like police because they CAUGHT you doing something illegal? You're an idiot.
I'll tell you how it is from the other side of the line. I don't care if someone smokes weed or not as long as they aren't endangering someone...UNLESS I CAN SEE IT.
If I can see it, smell it, or something else then you aren't hidden well enough to smoke weed. Learn to do it where I can't see it. These idiots that smoke it at a public pool deserve to be sent to jail if only for their brazen stupidity.
Also, without Tazers there would be a hell of a lot more mentally disturbed people being shot. That's what the primary function of Tazers are, to bridge the gap between an intermediate and lethal force and to put down schizophrenic psychopaths that are about to slit someones throat without killing them. Pepper spraying someone thats charging at me with a knife is not a reasonable action...so it's either I taze them or I shoot them, both of which are completely and totally justified.
You take my tazer away and someone gets shot, just keep that in mind.
Edit: The sentence for such a crime is 2-4 years in prison and up to $10,000 fine. It turns out there was a gun enhancement which can increase the sentence by up to 10 years.
just quoting you so more people will go for the topic rather then bash on a dumb ass pot head who was banned.
I thought it might come down to involuntary manslaughter, hes likely to get more time just for being a former police officer.
It did come out quick so that may factor to how ppl would react.
I always thought it would be involuntary manslaughter, as murder means there was intent which would be hard to prove.
a gun or a tazer should only be taken out of the holster if there is a clear and immediate threat. Not a "oh, he was struggling, even though we outnumbered the guy 3 - 1, he should be tazed, or threatened with a gun." This entire situation should have been avoided.
IMO he deserves the book thrown at him. He showed no respect for human life if he is that quick to pull a weapon on a defenceless person. The cops should have just, how do you say, smack him around a bit before pulling their piece.
On July 09 2010 08:53 Waffles wrote: Oh hey guys, since a white man was racist to a black man, lets pour into the streets, scaring almost all of the businesses in the area which are mostly run by minorities and destroy their business. I mean we are only in the worst economic recession since the great depression, but those businesses wouldnt mind that we take a day and a half worth of their profits, rob their stores, and at that we waste money totaling over a million dollars to monitor and make sure these dumbasses dont kill anyone.
Its funny cause when they go on these stupid riots they end up destroying a bunch of their own shit. And I didn't think it was racism, it was just a freak accident. That being said, that cop got way too little time, 2-4 years is bullshit.
On July 09 2010 08:53 Waffles wrote: Oh hey guys, since a white man was racist to a black man, lets pour into the streets, scaring almost all of the businesses in the area which are mostly run by minorities and destroy their business. I mean we are only in the worst economic recession since the great depression, but those businesses wouldnt mind that we take a day and a half worth of their profits, rob their stores, and at that we waste money totaling over a million dollars to monitor and make sure these dumbasses dont kill anyone.
Its funny cause when they go on these stupid riots they end up destroying a bunch of their own shit. And I didn't think it was racism, it was just a freak accident. That being said, that cop got way too little time, 2-4 years is bullshit.
hes likely to get a full 4 and the judge made a note that he may modify that to get more time somehow. Again former police tend to get the maximum of any given sentence when they are convicted.
Honestly I can't form an opinion because there's not enough information and every single informational outlet is one sided for either side. Also: it was called involuntary manslaughter today, and I'm in Oakland, so there's a bunch of sirens going off right now. I'll keep you guys informed if any serious rioting happens near me.
Also it's really really hard to say what happened REALLY because there's only two people who know what happened and one is dead and the other is prosecuted. In these types of situations is so sad that either side has to embellish their side so that they win a case. I just wish I knew what happened 100%.
until we have time traveling viewing technology i don't think that's going to happen, that or mind reading but the mind isn't reliable for sources of evidence.
On July 09 2010 08:53 Waffles wrote: Oh hey guys, since a white man was racist to a black man, lets pour into the streets, scaring almost all of the businesses in the area which are mostly run by minorities and destroy their business. I mean we are only in the worst economic recession since the great depression, but those businesses wouldnt mind that we take a day and a half worth of their profits, rob their stores, and at that we waste money totaling over a million dollars to monitor and make sure these dumbasses dont kill anyone.
Yeah well that's just how it work, shit whiteman shot a blackman obviously it was racism, shit no african americans in the jury obviously the prosecutor and the defense are also racist. Really i hope they don't riot that's just stupid... he got convicted and he will be getting significant jail time. Ofc what about juries convicting ugly people when attractive people tend to get aquited there is also what race you are what sex you are which studies show affect how the jury feels about you. I don't mind people getting angry i just mind when people claim racism end to end then claim "justice" as mob rule of clearly bias people.
On July 09 2010 08:53 Waffles wrote: Oh hey guys, since a white man was racist to a black man, lets pour into the streets, scaring almost all of the businesses in the area which are mostly run by minorities and destroy their business. I mean we are only in the worst economic recession since the great depression, but those businesses wouldnt mind that we take a day and a half worth of their profits, rob their stores, and at that we waste money totaling over a million dollars to monitor and make sure these dumbasses dont kill anyone.
I get your point but your tone is really fucking childish. Whether or not the police officer shot him because the suspect was black, you have to try to understand how the family would feel, and how the African-American community sees the whole issue. Do you honestly believe that the African-American community gives a shit about the state of the economy and the recession when they believe there was an absence of justice and a member of their community was shot without reason? Maybe they don't feel safe, I mean what's stopping other cops from killing black people when they only get 4 years? It's not about money. It's about the fundamentals.
I'm not arguing whether or not the sentence was right or wrong I don't know jack shit about the law, but your post just lacked common sense in my point of view. You are looking at it strictly from a monetary point of view and really doesn't have much to with the case itself. People don't just act out for without reason. They know the consequences of acting out (you get jailed/fined/arrested/assaulted) but they do it anyways because of their beliefs and they feel wronged. Racial profiling and discrimination has a long history especially with African-Americans and maybe they feel this is the last straw? Perhaps they feel an innocent young man's life was taken too soon by discrimination?
If there is nothing to be done legally, and you are backed into a corner wouldn't you retaliate if you felt such an injustice had been served to you or your loved ones? Perhaps rioting may not be the ideal way to retaliate (not because it causes harm to local businesses and drains money from the city) but because it doesn't get the message across. I'm not black but if something like that happened in my city I would most certainly join non-violent demonstrations.
On January 05 2009 12:25 GeneralStan wrote: "loving father", "hard worker" and "sports enthusiast" all sound like cover for the fact that this Grant character was clearly a violent sociopath. I'm sure he had it coming.
He had it coming for sitting there peacefully? I'm glad people like you aren't the majority in law enforcement.
On January 05 2009 12:25 GeneralStan wrote: "loving father", "hard worker" and "sports enthusiast" all sound like cover for the fact that this Grant character was clearly a violent sociopath. I'm sure he had it coming.
He had it coming for sitting there peacefully? I'm glad people like you aren't the majority in law enforcement.
You are an idiot.
How can you NOT see the dripping sarcasm there? Jesus some people are just beyond belief!
All I can say is I can sympathize with the family. For Christ's sake the guy was a father too. Damn. If a cop shot a member of my family and got 4 years I'd go fucking nuts.
On July 09 2010 08:53 Waffles wrote: Oh hey guys, since a white man was racist to a black man, lets pour into the streets, scaring almost all of the businesses in the area which are mostly run by minorities and destroy their business. I mean we are only in the worst economic recession since the great depression, but those businesses wouldnt mind that we take a day and a half worth of their profits, rob their stores, and at that we waste money totaling over a million dollars to monitor and make sure these dumbasses dont kill anyone.
Its funny cause when they go on these stupid riots they end up destroying a bunch of their own shit. And I didn't think it was racism, it was just a freak accident. That being said, that cop got way too little time, 2-4 years is bullshit.
4 years in prison as an ex police officer is practically a death sentence.
On July 09 2010 08:53 Waffles wrote: Oh hey guys, since a white man was racist to a black man, lets pour into the streets, scaring almost all of the businesses in the area which are mostly run by minorities and destroy their business. I mean we are only in the worst economic recession since the great depression, but those businesses wouldnt mind that we take a day and a half worth of their profits, rob their stores, and at that we waste money totaling over a million dollars to monitor and make sure these dumbasses dont kill anyone.
Its funny cause when they go on these stupid riots they end up destroying a bunch of their own shit. And I didn't think it was racism, it was just a freak accident. That being said, that cop got way too little time, 2-4 years is bullshit.
4 years in prison as an ex police officer is practically a death sentence.
On July 09 2010 08:53 Waffles wrote: Oh hey guys, since a white man was racist to a black man, lets pour into the streets, scaring almost all of the businesses in the area which are mostly run by minorities and destroy their business. I mean we are only in the worst economic recession since the great depression, but those businesses wouldnt mind that we take a day and a half worth of their profits, rob their stores, and at that we waste money totaling over a million dollars to monitor and make sure these dumbasses dont kill anyone.
I get your point but your tone is really fucking childish. Whether or not the police officer shot him because the suspect was black, you have to try to understand how the family would feel, and how the African-American community sees the whole issue. Do you honestly believe that the African-American community gives a shit about the state of the economy and the recession when they believe there was an absence of justice and a member of their community was shot without reason? Maybe they don't feel safe, I mean what's stopping other cops from killing black people when they only get 4 years? It's not about money. It's about the fundamentals.
I'm not arguing whether or not the sentence was right or wrong I don't know jack shit about the law, but your post just lacked common sense in my point of view. You are looking at it strictly from a monetary point of view and really doesn't have much to with the case itself. People don't just act out for without reason. They know the consequences of acting out (you get jailed/fined/arrested/assaulted) but they do it anyways because of their beliefs and they feel wronged. Racial profiling and discrimination has a long history especially with African-Americans and maybe they feel this is the last straw? Perhaps they feel an innocent young man's life was taken too soon by discrimination?
If there is nothing to be done legally, and you are backed into a corner wouldn't you retaliate if you felt such an injustice had been served to you or your loved ones? Perhaps rioting may not be the ideal way to retaliate (not because it causes harm to local businesses and drains money from the city) but because it doesn't get the message across. I'm not black but if something like that happened in my city I would most certainly join non-violent demonstrations.
Human life > Money
My tone is less childish than the people out there looting and rioting.
yea, youre right, human life>money. but youre gonna hurt people that have nothing to do with the incident and punish them for someone that someone else did?Fundamentals? So when violence happens to you and you respond with more violence, does that not lead to more violence? any riot itself for this situation is highly hypocritical. Youre gonna protest violence with violence. Lol
Secondly, the court judged it as involuntary manslaughter, No matter what anyone says, that is the outcome, hate crime or not, that is the charge, if it appeals as a hatecrime then this statement can be taken back. So they will riot over a involuntary manslaughter
(by youre i mean the people rioting and not directed twoard you but maybe your post)
The looting seems really unnecessary -_-. I'd imagine they would riot/make a public outcry because of an injustice not to steal goods. Hope you're safe buddy.
On July 09 2010 08:53 Waffles wrote: Oh hey guys, since a white man was racist to a black man, lets pour into the streets, scaring almost all of the businesses in the area which are mostly run by minorities and destroy their business. I mean we are only in the worst economic recession since the great depression, but those businesses wouldnt mind that we take a day and a half worth of their profits, rob their stores, and at that we waste money totaling over a million dollars to monitor and make sure these dumbasses dont kill anyone.
Its funny cause when they go on these stupid riots they end up destroying a bunch of their own shit. And I didn't think it was racism, it was just a freak accident. That being said, that cop got way too little time, 2-4 years is bullshit.
4 years in prison as an ex police officer is practically a death sentence.
Elaborate
If he doesn't get protective custody in jail, inmates are gonna fuck him up.
On January 05 2009 12:25 GeneralStan wrote: "loving father", "hard worker" and "sports enthusiast" all sound like cover for the fact that this Grant character was clearly a violent sociopath. I'm sure he had it coming.
wow, you sound impressively cold and heartless.
maybe you deserve to be shot as well.
Agreed. You should've been in his place. To blatantly say that this guy is a "clearly a violent sociopath" and that "he had it coming" is just disrespectful. How could anyone ever respect you as a person after just saying something so heartless about the death of a person that may have been a mistake. I mean I don't know who the person was that got shot but if i had to say you or him I'd put you in his place just from what i saw and read.
not to mention i was in the middle of the place 1 hour before the verdict was announced. It was a disaster. every store in downtown oakland was frantically closing their stores because of what happen last time. Many stores boarded up their windows days before. there should be no reason ANY american should need to do this kind of thing.(bar hurricanes). The traffic because everyone was frantically leaving was terrible. EVERY on ramp to the freeways were backed up for blocks and that almost never happens.
On July 09 2010 08:53 Waffles wrote: Oh hey guys, since a white man was racist to a black man, lets pour into the streets, scaring almost all of the businesses in the area which are mostly run by minorities and destroy their business. I mean we are only in the worst economic recession since the great depression, but those businesses wouldnt mind that we take a day and a half worth of their profits, rob their stores, and at that we waste money totaling over a million dollars to monitor and make sure these dumbasses dont kill anyone.
Its funny cause when they go on these stupid riots they end up destroying a bunch of their own shit. And I didn't think it was racism, it was just a freak accident. That being said, that cop got way too little time, 2-4 years is bullshit.
4 years in prison as an ex police officer is practically a death sentence.
Elaborate
If he doesn't get protective custody in jail, inmates are gonna fuck him up.
I'm pretty sure Cops are separated from general population.
On July 09 2010 08:53 Waffles wrote: Oh hey guys, since a white man was racist to a black man, lets pour into the streets, scaring almost all of the businesses in the area which are mostly run by minorities and destroy their business. I mean we are only in the worst economic recession since the great depression, but those businesses wouldnt mind that we take a day and a half worth of their profits, rob their stores, and at that we waste money totaling over a million dollars to monitor and make sure these dumbasses dont kill anyone.
Its funny cause when they go on these stupid riots they end up destroying a bunch of their own shit. And I didn't think it was racism, it was just a freak accident. That being said, that cop got way too little time, 2-4 years is bullshit.
4 years in prison as an ex police officer is practically a death sentence.
Elaborate
If he doesn't get protective custody in jail, inmates are gonna fuck him up.
I'm pretty sure Cops are separated from general population.
They are because they would never last long in prision.
Also the rioting and crap is caused by anarchist who are dressed in black covering their faces, wow don't they not stand out =p They also tend to be white.
Rioting doesn't usually mean physically abusing people but more along the lines of property destruction as a mob. And yeah you're right it's really unnecessary. A non-violent protest would suffice and maybe some coverage from the mass media to gain supporters.
The outcome is never final. A re-sentencing could be in order upon review from other judges and there could be lawyers that may feel strongly about this case and try to fight it again for a retrial. Who knows? I don't know much about the technicalities but as the another user stated previously, it could mean an additional 10 years because it involved a firearm. I would guess a strong public outcry, and awareness from the locals would have some sort of social influence (not in the courts) but for people to review and analyze the case.
This whole incident brings up a ton of issues and what I meant to say was money was far from the main issues at hand.
1) If you are African-American taking the BART would you feel safe? 2) Is it justified for a police officer to shoot another man and get a 4 year jail sentence? 3) Is the family going to sue BART and the city's police force for liability? 4) What measure will be taken by the police officers to prevent such incident from occurring again? 5) Will there be a possibility of a re-sentencing?
it's pointless to riot now, there is likely going to be an appeal just due to the nature of the sentence which is some what contradictory because of the gun enhancement part and seems like a middle ground that the jury worked out in order to get out, also they don't know how much he's going to get, as little as 5 as much as 14 years
It is certainly a sad event. I am very surprised that no one here feels that if all of the people standing around had just backed off and let the cops do their job, this probably all would have been avoided.
You can hate the cops all that you want and there are many bad ones, but when you are put specifically in those shoes, it is hard to say what you would or wouldn't do, much less what might accidentally happen due to stress and adrenaline.
When you are outnumbered 20:1 it is very hard to assume how you would react. Those cops were probably fearing for their own lives in that situation.
That was one step away from all of those cops being killed by the mob. I think the cop should be removed and probably sentenced with manslaughter, but the group aggravated the situation, no matter what you beliefs of cops are.
On July 09 2010 13:57 oBlit wrote: It is certainly a sad event. I am very surprised that no one here feels that if all of the people standing around had just backed off and let the cops do their job, this probably all would have been avoided.
You can hate the cops all that you want and there are many bad ones, but when you are put specifically in those shoes, it is hard to say what you would or wouldn't do, much less what might accidentally happen due to stress and adrenaline.
When you are outnumbered 20:1 it is very hard to assume how you would react. Those cops were probably fearing for their own lives in that situation.
That was one step away from all of those cops being killed by the mob. I think the cop should be removed and probably sentenced with manslaughter, but the group aggravated the situation, no matter what you beliefs of cops are.
i think its especially sad that in this part of the area that hating cops make you cool. I was taught the opposite when i was a kid and i dont know where this belief came from.
People hate on cops and say stupid shit like "Fuck the police" and at the end of the day we do need policing for our safety and to maintain peace and order. And I can only imagine what it would be like to be a cop, having a tough stressful job and people hating for no particular reason. Given the nature of their job, police officers are given a lot of power and rightly so.
But, when they fail to do their job "to serve and protect" and in this case (this is arguable) used their power to kill and individual and get a 4 year sentence. I feel as if there is a double standard. Nobody is above the law and police officers are supposed to enforce the law and when they fail to do so and actually act in a manner opposing the law, they should be dealt with strict manner.
I'm sure there was a debate over "heat of the moment" if it was intent+motive. But in the end he shot a guy he was supposed to protect just like anybody else.
On July 09 2010 14:01 Waffles wrote: i think its especially sad that in this part of the area that hating cops make you cool. I was taught the opposite when i was a kid and i dont know where this belief came from.
lolsociety.
It is perfectly obvious that those who hate cops typically break the law. As I said, some of them are bad and power hungry. but that is dealt with in every walk of life.
They are put in place to protect the citizens and enforce laws. That situation looked to me like it could get out of control at any second. The mob should have backed off.
Still, the cop should be removed and go to prison, no questions asked.
On July 09 2010 13:24 ThePurist wrote: The looting seems really unnecessary -_-. I'd imagine they would riot/make a public outcry because of an injustice not to steal goods. Hope you're safe buddy.
Thanks. My area is quite safe but its close to there. Just went out to get frozen yogurt and didn't end up dying. (Also fun irrelevant fact, the place across from the place I just went to is Fettons, the ice cream place in Pixar's Up)
In Toronto there was that whole G-20 shit going down, people were burning cop cars smashing windows at the financial district.
I live where that shit happened but I can tell you honestly it wasn't that bad and the media fucking blew it way out of proportion. But I didn't go outside cuz I didn't feel like getting trampled by RCMP horses and shit.
EDIT: I wasn't joking about the horse thing. One of my friends went to protest and he told me they set police officers on horses to try to break up the crowds. If you didn't get out of the way you'd get trampled.
naw that's unlikely the police are well preparied for it and most of the community was set up to stop most of those people who try to take advantage of people gathering. Although they did break into a footlocker and stole some shoes...
But overall the media been kind and saying that it's been fairly peaceful minu a few rouge elements.
On July 09 2010 14:10 ThePurist wrote: In Toronto there was that whole G-20 shit going down, people were burning cop cars smashing windows at the financial district.
I live where that shit happened but I can tell you honestly it wasn't that bad and the media fucking blew it way out of proportion. But I didn't go outside cuz I didn't feel like getting trampled by RCMP horses and shit.
Media always does that. Its what gets people watching
I was just wondering from the people who reside near the area.
How many black people in a crowd of 10 (assume) What do you guys think about the 20 man jury without any African-Americans? Does it really represent the populace?
Can't tell you about the crowd of 10 question because I wasn't that close.
But, the second part is much more important than you'd think. In this area, it is very historically significant, the amount of racism that is. Though areas such as suburbs and etc are generally protected from ideas such as racism, sexism, etc, the urban areas never have forgotten any police brutality that ever happened, questionable or not.
Think about it this way, living in a racially peaceful area, this event seems like people blowing this race thing out of proportion because you don't see many ideas that racism to this scale still exists. However, in an area such as urban Oakland, it is the opposite, and anything that remotely resembles hate crime becomes hate crime, whereas to others (since it also resembles an accident or random killing) it resembles non racism hate crime.
It is a very complex thing because it really depends on where you were brought up.
I've lived in Oakland for almost all of my life, and I'm having trouble expressing the magnitude of this situation. Reading this thread has been fascinating; it's good to see people who offer sympathy for the pain Oakland is experiencing and it hurts to see people write it off purely as an unruly crowd jumping on the chance to loot and steal.
What scares me most is that the conflict downtown is so quickly overshadowing the crime committed. The killing of Oscar Grant was a violent, sudden blow to Oakland, and whether you like it or not, the effects of it were extremely racially charged. Oakland is a city of racial extremes and a lot of tension results from it (To answer your question ThePurist [I'm assuming you meant in a general crowd, not specific to the crowd downtown], it varies greatly; outside of my house it would probably around 5/10 people in a crowd would be black, in the hills it's more like 1/10, and down by Broadway [where the protests were taking place] I would estimate 7/10 people would be black. A 20 man jury with no black people on it is a massive fluke). While the crime itself wasn't necessarily committed due to racism, the imagery of a white policeman shooting an unarmed, restrained black man is incredibly powerful, and it's not the kind of thing that a city like Oakland can shake.
The anger that is resulting is, while very wrong, understandable; it isn't some outside angst or bitterness towards the police, it isn't random Thanatotic outlash, it is genuine hurt and outrage towards the verdict. That said, violence, looting, and disputes with the police only serve to deepen the wounds Oakland has already suffered today, and certainly do nothing to improve its image.
With that said, hopefully everyone can try to be a little more understanding as to why my city is in turmoil (and a great thank you to those who already have been understanding). It is an environment unlike almost any other in the world, and the death of Oscar Grant has greatly affected Oakland as a whole.
Tasers should be removed from the police force. They've done nothing but encourage abuse, laziness, and thoughtlessness on the part of law enforcement officials. At least before tasers, officers would have to think and assess the risks and circumstances before pulling a trigger. Since the taser is a presumably non-lethal weapon and they can seem to get away with firing it whenever they want because of this, it's used in everything from getting a person already on the floor and pinned down to stop screaming to unnecessarily shocking harmless and defenseless people into submission. Yes, there are plenty of ways to subdue a person high on crack concaine and yes, unfortunately they do require a bit more thought and patience than pulling a taser out of its holster and shocking them. Police need to start treating a taser like a gun in that it should be a last resort, not a first, which it has so often become.
If tasers are kept on the police force (and I assume they will be since they love them so much), their use should be controlled far more than they are now with strict punishments of abuse. The simple fact is that despite the presumption, tasers are not necessarily safe or non-lethal. They are weapons that, like rubber bullets, have the potential to cause real damage to a person. Perhaps if they were actually treated as such by police officers rather than toys, then this incident could have been avoided entirely. It's pretty clear that a taser in this instance was a completely unnecessary and inappropriate use of force. If this officer wasn't so quick to pull out his taser and use it, we wouldn't be here talking about this today and a human being would be alive rather than dead. This is, of course, all assuming that this was indeed an accident and that the officer in question did somehow mistake his firearm for his taser (which is a completely unacceptable error for a trained officer anyway).
Just on another note, yes, police officers do provide a valuable service to our communities as do firefighters and even soldiers. However, I would like to emphasize that this service does not, by default, entitle them to our respect or trust. Of course police will always complain about how hard their job is and how they're underappreciated and such, but that's not an excuse for poor judgement or behavior and it's certainly not an excuse for errors on the job. Yes, people do make mistakes and they do get tired. However, this doesn't diminish the seriousness of those mistakes nor should they play a part in in the consequences they should face for those mistakes. If you can't handle being a professional in your field of work, go do something else for a living. There are plenty of officers out there who are completely deserving of respect and handle their duties with the utmost professionalism and care despite facing all the same hardships. But because of these bad apples, they are being given a bad name and their ability to do their work is being compromised by the mistrust that naturally develops in our communities whenever we see these incidents.
I hope this officer receives a sentence that accurately reflects his crime and serves as a reminder to other police that they are being held accountable for their actions just like the rest of us.
It may or may not be an accident. We won't know for sure. But you gotta ask:
- Is 4 years of jail time worth another man's life? - If he wasn't a cop would there be stricter penalty? - If so, does the police officer deserve a lenient penalty because he was 'doing his job'?
My personal thoughts:
- No - Yes - No; regardless of racial discrimination, regardless of intent, regardless of whatever, a fucking man was shot by an authority figure. As a layman, I would argue for a stricter sentence.
At one point, my father was wrongfully convicted for doing insurance fraud / arson. Him being a first generation immigrant in Philadelphia, there was this obscure rule that forced him to be deported, but if the deportation law didn't exist, he would have had three years for his "conviction". To this day I am convinced that the system has major flaws BUT I try to defend it when it needs to be defended. Why am I saying this? Well the thing is, a man accidentally (debatable to some) kills another man and gets 2-4 years. My father didn't even do what he was convicted for, but even then, assuming he did, he got 3 years for arson and money issues, as well as deportation (and leaving poor old me a bastard child in the United States )
Is it just me or is there something INCREDIBLY flawed in this system? It seems sometimes, issues dealing with property and money have more or almost equal weight as with accidental murder. Then again, who am I to say that this amount of time is wrong? Who gets to determine that?
jinmaekul has obviously never fought someone high on rack and cocaine and lsd at the samd time.
I've seen a few people high on tthe stuff fight off seven fully grown men and still keep going. You cant possibly comprehend how strong people are under excited delirium.
So don't play side line coach when you don't actually have any clue at all.
On July 09 2010 16:20 Jayme wrote: jinmaekul has obviously never fought someone high on rack and cocaine and lsd at the samd time.
I've seen a few people high on tthe stuff fight off seven fully grown men and still keep going. You cant possibly comprehend how strong people are under excited delirium.
So don't play side line coach when you don't actually have any clue at all.
Dude are you seriously trying to troll right now? Crack and Cocaine ARE THE SAME THING! Crack is just Cocaine converted into a smoke-able form. Cocaine is a stimulant that gives a boost in physical prowess. I could see it giving you increased powers in a fight against ONE PERSON. After that it's just too insignificant of an advantage. LSD on the other gives no boosted physical powers as you are insinuating - on the flip side i see no way it could ever make a person fight anyone, as they would be completely confused as to the purpose of striking another human being. Even if they were only on a low dose, LSD would be at best a neutral factor in their ability to fight, and probably would just hamper their fighting immensely. Even if it did somehow happen, it's rediculous to say ANYONE fought off seven people at once while under the influence of a powerful stimulant like crack or even normal cocaine. The stress would cause them to hyperventilate, and and there is no advantage in the world that can make you able to fight off seven people at once. Basically it's obvious that you just made that up off of the top of your head for some inane purpose i completely don't even understand.
I think the significant flaw in the prosecution was the inclusion of the murder charge (an intentional act with conscious disregard for human life). It forced the jurors to deeply consider the state of mind of the officer at the time of the killing.
Forcing the jury to consider murder also affects the other two charges. A juror might make an argument (such as an accidental discharge) to save the officer from murder, but at the same time also clear the officer of a voluntary manslaughter charge. If the officer had not been charged with murder, I am sure a voluntary manslaughter charge would have been reached and the officer would be looking at up to 21 years.
Below are the jury instructions in California for vol. and invol. manslaughter:
Involuntary: [1] A human being was killed; and [2] the killing was unlawful.
Voluntary: [1] The defendant was provoked; [2] as a result of the provocation, the defendant acted rashly and under the influence of intense emotion that obscured his reasoning or judgment; and [3] the provocation would have caused a person of average disposition to act rashly and without due deliberation, that is, from passion rather than from judgment.
On July 09 2010 15:18 kaisen wrote: cops aren't that stupid (depends). In this situation, they wouldn't flamboyantly shoot a suspect who is on the ground with witnesses around them.
This is most likely an accident.
it's very clearly an accident if you have seen the video. unfortunate that someone died as a result of human error, but having to live the rest of your life with that on your conscience would really take a toll.
In basic hand gun training/ licensing in California its drilled into you over and over not to point your firearm at another human being unless its self defense. No trained intelligent person would under those circumstances point a loaded weapon at a man that is clearly down and in cuffs (no immediate danger). That violates all sensible training for normal human beings that own/use a firearm.
Looking at what the officer said and basic training on firearms it makes some sense that he mistakenly drew his weapon instead of a taser. It doesn't make sense to murder a subdued person in cold blood in front of many many witnesses. Since there was no motive that is probably why the sentence was reduced to manslaughter.
On July 09 2010 15:35 ThePurist wrote: It may or may not be an accident. We won't know for sure. But you gotta ask:
- Is 4 years of jail time worth another man's life? - If he wasn't a cop would there be stricter penalty? - If so, does the police officer deserve a lenient penalty because he was 'doing his job'?
My personal thoughts:
- No - Yes - No; regardless of racial discrimination, regardless of intent, regardless of whatever, a fucking man was shot by an authority figure. As a layman, I would argue for a stricter sentence.
he hasn't been sentenced, hes only been found guilty of involuntary manslaughter, with a weapon enhancement.
Means a minimum of 5 years of jail time with a max of 14 years, ofc in a small change the judge can appoint a probation period which could involve a jail time arrangement but that's unlikely. What is likely is as he was a police officer he will get the max or near max as althoguh officers tend not to found guilty of crimes committed while on duty, when they are they are often given a much harsher sentencing vs someone committing the same or similar crime.
He's been found guilty of a crime, the judge has the sentencing to do.
Which likely means little as this will be likely contested in federal court because weapon enchantment conflicts with involuntary manslaughter meaning the jury maybe made a bargain with each other to not get a hung jury.
On July 09 2010 17:32 Persev wrote: In basic hand gun training/ licensing in California its drilled into you over and over not to point your firearm at another human being unless its self defense. No trained intelligent person would under those circumstances point a loaded weapon at a man that is clearly down and in cuffs (no immediate danger). That violates all sensible training for normal human beings that own/use a firearm.
Looking at what the officer said and basic training on firearms it makes some sense that he mistakenly drew his weapon instead of a taser. It doesn't make sense to murder a subdued person in cold blood in front of many many witnesses. Since there was no motive that is probably why the sentence was reduced to manslaughter.
I think motive during the trail was pinned as racism by the prosecution, mainly because his mentor officer who helped train mehserle was pinned as an outspoken racist. The jury didn't believe it so trying to prove intent to kill is much harder.
Never point your weapon at anything you don't intend to shoot.
Keep your weapon on safe until you're ready to fire.
Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to fire.
These are the 4 basic firearm safety rules you learn. If the police officer shot a man, then all of these rules must have been true. He was treating his weapon as loaded, he was ready to fire, and he intended to shoot him. This fits the description of second-degree murder.
Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life.
On July 09 2010 16:20 Jayme wrote: jinmaekul has obviously never fought someone high on rack and cocaine and lsd at the samd time.
I've seen a few people high on tthe stuff fight off seven fully grown men and still keep going. You cant possibly comprehend how strong people are under excited delirium.
So don't play side line coach when you don't actually have any clue at all.
Dude are you seriously trying to troll right now? Crack and Cocaine ARE THE SAME THING! Crack is just Cocaine converted into a smoke-able form. Cocaine is a stimulant that gives a boost in physical prowess. I could see it giving you increased powers in a fight against ONE PERSON. After that it's just too insignificant of an advantage. LSD on the other gives no boosted physical powers as you are insinuating - on the flip side i see no way it could ever make a person fight anyone, as they would be completely confused as to the purpose of striking another human being. Even if they were only on a low dose, LSD would be at best a neutral factor in their ability to fight, and probably would just hamper their fighting immensely. Even if it did somehow happen, it's rediculous to say ANYONE fought off seven people at once while under the influence of a powerful stimulant like crack or even normal cocaine. The stress would cause them to hyperventilate, and and there is no advantage in the world that can make you able to fight off seven people at once. Basically it's obvious that you just made that up off of the top of your head for some inane purpose i completely don't even understand.
[/quote]
look it up. It's called excited delirium and it generally kills the person after the effects wear off. However, it sure as hell enables someone to fight off six to seven grown men. Again you can't comprehend it without seeing it. The human body can do absolutely freskish things when you feel no pain and are absolutely flooded witth adrenaline. You know those woemen that lift cars to save their children? Same fucking principle just a shit ton more focued...the semantics about crack cocaine aside I didn't make shit up.
Just because you apparently know nothimg about it doesn't mean it isn't there. Neither of those drugs on their own do much but when you start combining things it gets stupid...somebody as arrogant as your entire pos sounded should know this.
On July 03 2010 17:19 Number41 wrote: Tasers should not be standard issue. They are very dangerous weapons, often a subject of abuse, and a crutch for lazy police.
If they are used they should be kept on the opposite side of the belt from the gun.
I agree. This summer I've been threatened by one, with the officer saying "i'll light you up, boy". I wasn't doing shit other than having drank a little wine. I had had maybe 3 glasses, and wasn't driving. I was just riding with my girlfriend.
Just about a week ago, I was listening to a cop talk to a boy. He said "i've been in this game a long time, son, how old are you, 18? I'm 38. I've got 10 years on you."
I could tell my girlfriend was about to laugh, so i told her to shut up before she did. Police have huge e-peens when it comes to being made fun of. This guy definitely deserves to be made fun of for that, though, so it's bullshit. I should have told him that it's 20 years you fucking idiot, but I didn't feel like getting put on the ground and shot in the back like that dude on the subway.
On July 09 2010 18:41 SnK-Arcbound wrote: Treat every weapon as if it were loaded.
Never point your weapon at anything you don't intend to shoot.
Keep your weapon on safe until you're ready to fire.
Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to fire.
These are the 4 basic firearm safety rules you learn. If the police officer shot a man, then all of these rules must have been true. He was treating his weapon as loaded, he was ready to fire, and he intended to shoot him. This fits the description of second-degree murder.
Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life.
They probably aren't as strict about taser safety as gun safety for the obvious reason that guns are more dangerous. The fact that he intended to shoot him if he was aware that he had a gun is irrelevant to his defense that he thought he was holding a taser.
On July 09 2010 15:35 ThePurist wrote: It may or may not be an accident. We won't know for sure. But you gotta ask:
- Is 4 years of jail time worth another man's life? - If he wasn't a cop would there be stricter penalty? - If so, does the police officer deserve a lenient penalty because he was 'doing his job'?
My personal thoughts:
- No - Yes - No; regardless of racial discrimination, regardless of intent, regardless of whatever, a fucking man was shot by an authority figure. As a layman, I would argue for a stricter sentence.
Why should it be a stricter sentence?
20 to life for her if she shot the guy? As a layman you should be appreciative of the fact that you won't spend your life in prison if you make a mistake on the job.
On July 09 2010 15:35 ThePurist wrote: It may or may not be an accident. We won't know for sure. But you gotta ask:
- Is 4 years of jail time worth another man's life? - If he wasn't a cop would there be stricter penalty? - If so, does the police officer deserve a lenient penalty because he was 'doing his job'?
My personal thoughts:
- No - Yes - No; regardless of racial discrimination, regardless of intent, regardless of whatever, a fucking man was shot by an authority figure. As a layman, I would argue for a stricter sentence.
20 to life for her if she shot the guy? As a layman you should be appreciative of the fact that you won't spend your life in prison if you make a mistake on the job.
She clearly was incompetent and wasn't following the guidelines of gun safety as described earlier in this thread... not relevant to a defense that he thought he was holding his taser :/
"sport enthousiast" and "hard worker" sounds like he was a bit of a hooligan to me, but what is not very clear still is what exactly the situation was? Why were there guys cuffed, what did they do?
I think it's hard to judge what the punishment should be. If it was a mistake (why was he holding the gun in the first place?) then there's no reason the policeman's life must be destroyed too. On the other hand, just being a cop (or an american soldier, lol) brings out violent behaviour somewhat, since you're seeing so much of it. Tricky!
The tenets of gun safety go out the window when you are attempting to control a situation like those cops were in. I feel that applies to recreational use of weapons.
On July 09 2010 23:38 oBlit wrote: The tenets of gun safety go out the window when you are attempting to control a situation like those cops were in. I feel that applies to recreational use of weapons.
Maybe it's just early, but I have no idea what you're trying to say. Gun safety goes out the window when you're restraining people? And that this idea (gun safety no longer applying) should apply to recreational weapons?
On July 09 2010 18:41 SnK-Arcbound wrote: Treat every weapon as if it were loaded.
Never point your weapon at anything you don't intend to shoot.
Keep your weapon on safe until you're ready to fire. Be sure of your target and look beyond.
Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to fire.
These are the 4 basic firearm safety rules you learn. If the police officer shot a man, then all of these rules must have been true. He was treating his weapon as loaded, he was ready to fire, and he intended to shoot him. This fits the description of second-degree murder.
Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life.
Fixed. That rule I crossed out doesn't apply to all weapons. A lot of police departments carry Glocks, which do not have selectable safties. Revolvers apply as well as some Sigs.
On July 09 2010 16:20 Jayme wrote: jinmaekul has obviously never fought someone high on rack and cocaine and lsd at the samd time.
I've seen a few people high on tthe stuff fight off seven fully grown men and still keep going. You cant possibly comprehend how strong people are under excited delirium.
So don't play side line coach when you don't actually have any clue at all.
Yes, because physical confrontation is always the appropriate answer and the job of a police officer is to physically fight a person high on crack cocaine and LSD at the same time... -_- Police officers ARE trained to contain and subdue suspects high on crack and it doesn't absolutely have to involve the use of tasers. Tasers simply make the job easier for the officers, but in doing so (as my post argues), it encourages lazy police work.
I would not have a problem if tasers were used appropriately, but there are far too many instances where they are not. Tasers are a weapon to help you use a certain type of force in the appropriate situation. The key word here is: "APPROPRIATE". When officers start using this weapon inappropriately with such frequency, it's time we took some time to evaluate what needs to be done about this and how this problem can be remedied. Certainly, there's no absolute need for tasers and most certainly there's no need for them to be standard issue. Limiting their distribution or eliminating them completely are two steps that could be taken to deal with this situation that we have. Also if they are to be used, enforcing stricter protocol for their use is important to making the officers think about whether it is, indeed, an appropriate weapon to use in a given situation.
On July 10 2010 00:32 mmp wrote: The fact of the matter is a cop could have shot him 41 times and still got off easy.
No justice, no peace.
Actually that's not a fact of this matter. If the cop in this instance had shot the person 41 times he would have gotten into a boatload of trouble.
He probably would have been shot during the trail or something if he pulled that. I'm just guessing mmp dresses up in black, wears a face mask and shouts at people for no reason.
If that's the America he believes esp the bay area he believes he should just leave.
Am I wrong for thinking that in situations like this the people who immediately defend the police officer's behavior are either socially biased or something?
Y'know, real people from the real world realize that a police officer should be able to handle a guy laying on the ground on his stomach without a gun out. Anyone who still thinks he's a threat and that the police officer needed a gun or that it's "standard procedure" aren't even worth discussing this topic with.
There are literally hundreds of examples of police overkill and part of it can be understood, I'm sure it's a stressful job and at times that may boil over into straight up brutality or result in accidents. But when something like this happens the officer needs to be relieved of duty. Period. They can move on with their lives and find something else to do.
This reminds me of a situation that happened near here where a police officer shot and killed a 16 year old kid who was wielding a knife and wasn't responsive. I understand that the kid has a knife and is therefore a threat, but seriously it's not like you can't call for back up or handle a 16 year old without firing your gun.
On July 10 2010 06:13 overt wrote: Am I wrong for thinking that in situations like this the people who immediately defend the police officer's behavior are either socially biased or something?
Y'know, real people from the real world realize that a police officer should be able to handle a guy laying on the ground on his stomach without a gun out. Anyone who still thinks he's a threat and that the police officer needed a gun or that it's "standard procedure" aren't even worth discussing this topic with.
There are literally hundreds of examples of police overkill and part of it can be understood, I'm sure it's a stressful job and at times that may boil over into straight up brutality or result in accidents. But when something like this happens the officer needs to be relieved of duty. Period. They can move on with their lives and find something else to do.
This reminds me of a situation that happened near here where a police officer shot and killed a 16 year old kid who was wielding a knife and wasn't responsive. I understand that the kid has a knife and is therefore a threat, but seriously it's not like you can't call for back up or handle a 16 year old without firing your gun.
I don't see people immediately rushing to defend the police officer. I see people taking all facts into account and trying to analyze this logically and rationally. I do however see people jumping all OVER the police officer without stopping to think about it rationally.
I don't think anyone is arguing that the cop shouldn't be relieved of duty... you can't take out your gun and shoot an innocent person. But that's completely different from criminal charges.
Those espousing physical fights please recognize that in a physical grappling/fighting confrontation injuries and deaths are MORE likely than when using a tazer and that goes for both parties involved.
That is not even taking in to account the fact that wrestling with a suspect is extremely dangerous for the officer, leaving him vulnerable to attacks from his flanks by other suspects or to surprise weapon strikes, as well as leaving him open to having his tazer, gun, or club snatched away by the suspect and used against him.
Basically, Tazers are WAY safer than the alternative. People should just listen when cops tell them to do something.
On July 10 2010 06:23 SpicyCrab wrote: Those espousing physical fights please recognize that in a physical grappling/fighting confrontation injuries and deaths are MORE likely than when using a tazer and that goes for both parties involved.
That is not even taking in to account the fact that wrestling with a suspect is extremely dangerous for the officer, leaving him vulnerable to attacks from his flanks by other suspects or to surprise weapon strikes, as well as leaving him open to having his tazer, gun, or club snatched away by the suspect and used against him.
Basically, Tazers are WAY safer than the alternative. People should just listen when cops tell them to do something.
but if people did that then razer would be unnecessary clearly they just want their money's worth of police brutality.
EPT
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