On January 07 2009 12:32 food wrote: baal, everyone knows taekwondo is an inefficient martial art. However, this doesnt mean everything else is inefficient. Best MMA fighters did stick to a specific martial art for years, even though they list a bunch of. They add the important elements of other styles in later on, only to match the MMA rules and be prepared for something their style lacks. And yes, MMA has rules besides biting, thus its not the "ultimate fighting". If you think MMA represents best worlds fighters, youre fucking wrong. Explaining this might take weeks, but i know for a fact that MANY people capable of defeating MMA top performers wont even take part in it. Theres many people like Klichko, Shakuta who wont even be interested in doing it. Top worlds wrestlers would destroy 2/3 of the MMA hands down. Theres just so much more outside this semi-staged show, just keep your eyes open.
movie looks awesome, definitely going to check it out
LOL you are retarded seriously why do you post when u have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about.
you are not talking about MMA, you are talking about UFC; there are many MMA asociations with virtually no rules (except obv no biting and eyes) like RIOHEROES, they fight bare handed like they did in early UFC.
Klichko? are you serious? a boxer with barely any experience in a cage, lol yeah i want to see him fight on the ground lol.
Top wrestlers? MMA has many olypmic and national champions in wrestling like Randy Cotoure, Fedor (4 times consecutive world champ of Sambo) etc etc etc.
Semi-staged? how is it semi staged you moron?
Actualy Klichko himself adviced Floy Mayweather (37-0) considered by many the best boxer of all time NOT TO FIGHT IN MMA or he would get seriously injured:
IBF heavyweight champion Wladimir Klitschko is against Floyd Mayweather Jr's possible entrance into the world of mixed-martial-arts. As quoted in a recent ESPN interview by writer Michael David Smith, Klitschko is afraid that Mayweather will get seriously hurt if he decides to follow through with his plans for a mixed-martial-arts debut.
"Please, Floyd, don't do it," Klitschko said. "I think he'd get hurt. There are so many difficulties from changing one sport you've been doing for a long time and swithcing to something else. ... I wish he'd stick with boxing."
owned?
as you know, they Klitchko brothers so while one of them was focusing entirely on boxing, another one won couple kickboxing competitions. You didnt know that why type "owned" actually i can use it now but i wont i liked the part about wrestling, some unknown people who noone heard of before especially couture cracks me up, hes one hell of a clown u typed etc etc etc like theres anything behind those words, hate to say it, ure full of shit. Name couple known people in wrestling world who went into MMA besides "fedor" isnt it funny "fedor" dominating in it? he was indeed pro sambo, i didnt say theres NONE involved. He wouldnt stand a chance vs someone like Karelin( throwing this one out since im not familiar with current champs), it would in fact be laughable if he challenged him( it never wouldve happened, since he was in classic wrestling) actually out of pure interest i just looked up couture bio, he never won anything. He was a garbage wrestler, state champion and got somethign in olympic trials? haha well baal, you know a lot indeed. I apologize for the language, this was your response, exact same wording you didnt get "owned", you just didnt know enough thats no problem
edit: and dont mention gracies, they were good as fuck and owned UFC, no surprise they quit the circus and who says Mayweather wouldnt be successful? he would sweep whole fucking top 20 list maybe besides 2-3 people
I loved the choreography, it was very good, and the wing chun moves were very authentic.
BUT I feel it was very, very racist against Japanese, implying that they would never be able to master the superior Chiense martial arts because they're hardwired to be assholes.
Response to FOOD, placed in spoiler to avoid excessive thread derailing. + Show Spoiler +
You know, I've lurked TL.net since the day it was made and I hardly ever post, but the ignorance in food's post has provoked a response out of me, despite my strong belief that I'm merely feeding a troll.
Food, top MMA competitors dominate because they excel at the myriad of dimensions that comprise the sport of Mixed Martial Arts. Anyone who lacks well-roundedness will be unsuccessful, no matter how great their mastery of a specific, one-dimensional combat art might be. Since you asked for examples, I provide them.
Wrestling
Kevin Jackson Jackson won a gold medal in Freestyle wrestling at the 1992 Summer Olympics. He has an MMA record of 4-2, including a 16 second loss to Frank Shamrock by armbar. Hardly consituttes blowing away the competition of the time. His wins are all by submission, indicating some level of cross-training in any case, so he's not even a pure wrestler.
Rulon Gardner Gold medalist at the 2000 Summer Games, defeating Alexander Karelin. Gardner quit MMA after one fight (which he won), because he disliked being hit in the face - which wrestling in no way prepares one for.
Judo
There have been several elite judoka, including Olympic and world champions, that have competed in MMA. By and large, none of them have accomplished any great success against top competition. Naoya Ogawa, Hidehiko Yoshida and Pawel Nastula all have judo world championships and olympic medals to their credit. None have beaten top competition in MMA or held a major title.
Kickboxing
Numerous elite strikers have competed under MMA rules. Examples include:
Mirko 'Crocop' Filipovic Mirko is the most succesful fighter to transition from kickboxing to MMA. Whilst his rapid accumulation of take-down and submission defense elevated Cro Cop to the upper echelons of MMA, he has lost to most top 10 heavyweights he has fought, and never captured a major title.
Mark Hunt Probably the second most well-known K-1-cum-MMA competitor behind Cro Cop. K-1 World Grand Prix 2001 and multiple time World GP finalist. In MMA, has a record of 5-5, losing all fights he had against notable competition bar a ludicrous gift decision against Wanderlei Silva. Has been submitted in the first round multiple times.
Badr Hari One of the top dogs in K-1 currently, former K-1 heavyweight champion. MMA record is 0-1, lost to some fighter I've never heard of - by forearm choke, in 22 seconds.
BJJ/Gracie Jiu-Jistu Despite your claims, many, many of the Gracie clan remain active competitors in the world of MMA, with several having fought in the last twelve months - in fact too many for me to bother attempting to list. None of them are or will be top contenders, with the possible exception of Roger Gracie, who, given time to develop a more well-rounded skillset remains a potential heavyweight prospect. Not since the early days of the UFC has a 'pure' BJJ/GJJ fighter been able to sit atop the MMA world without rounding out their striking and wrestling skills. The only possible exception I can think of is Masakazu Imanari, who has had quite a lot of success at 145lb and below as pretty much a pure submission artist, but he has yet to be tested against the top names at those weights and has lost to more well-rounded fighters in the past.
Conclusion No-one who focuses exclusively or even predominantly in one particular, limited combat sport has had any significant or lasting success against mixed martial artists who do. Yes there are athletes outside the MMA world who - if they had or would focus on a sophisticated regime of cross-training - potential would or could have become better MMA fighters than the current crop of UFC / Dream / WVR / Shooto etc competitors. But not without training in a manner fundamentally identical to the manner that those fighters do. Fedor is the best because he is highly skilled in the three major components of MMA: striking, wrestling and ground-work, and weaves them together so well. No athlete coming from a pure one-dimensional art is going to pose anything other than a fluke threat to him, or to any other top MMA competitor.
On topic: The trailer for Ip Man looks good, can’t wait to check it out! Hope it's released in Aus, or is otherwise available with English subs.
On January 07 2009 23:49 MassArbiterFTW wrote: Response to FOOD, placed in spoiler to avoid excessive thread derailing. + Show Spoiler +
You know, I've lurked TL.net since the day it was made and I hardly ever post, but the ignorance in food's post has provoked a response out of me, despite my strong belief that I'm merely feeding a troll.
Food, top MMA competitors dominate because they excel at the myriad of dimensions that comprise the sport of Mixed Martial Arts. Anyone who lacks well-roundedness will be unsuccessful, no matter how great their mastery of a specific, one-dimensional combat art might be. Since you asked for examples, I provide them.
Wrestling
Kevin Jackson Jackson won a gold medal in Freestyle wrestling at the 1992 Summer Olympics. He has an MMA record of 4-2, including a 16 second loss to Frank Shamrock by armbar. Hardly consituttes blowing away the competition of the time. His wins are all by submission, indicating some level of cross-training in any case, so he's not even a pure wrestler.
Rulon Gardner Gold medalist at the 2000 Summer Games, defeating Alexander Karelin. Gardner quit MMA after one fight (which he won), because he disliked being hit in the face - which wrestling in no way prepares one for.
Judo
There have been several elite judoka, including Olympic and world champions, that have competed in MMA. By and large, none of them have accomplished any great success against top competition. Naoya Ogawa, Hidehiko Yoshida and Pawel Nastula all have judo world championships and olympic medals to their credit. None have beaten top competition in MMA or held a major title.
Kickboxing
Numerous elite strikers have competed under MMA rules. Examples include:
Mirko 'Crocop' Filipovic Mirko is the most succesful fighter to transition from kickboxing to MMA. Whilst his rapid accumulation of take-down and submission defense elevated Cro Cop to the upper echelons of MMA, he has lost to most top 10 heavyweights he has fought, and never captured a major title.
Mark Hunt Probably the second most well-known K-1-cum-MMA competitor behind Cro Cop. K-1 World Grand Prix 2001 and multiple time World GP finalist. In MMA, has a record of 5-5, losing all fights he had against notable competition bar a ludicrous gift decision against Wanderlei Silva. Has been submitted in the first round multiple times.
Badr Hari One of the top dogs in K-1 currently, former K-1 heavyweight champion. MMA record is 0-1, lost to some fighter I've never heard of - by forearm choke, in 22 seconds.
BJJ/Gracie Jiu-Jistu Despite your claims, many, many of the Gracie clan remain active competitors in the world of MMA, with several having fought in the last twelve months - in fact too many for me to bother attempting to list. None of them are or will be top contenders, with the possible exception of Roger Gracie, who, given time to develop a more well-rounded skillset remains a potential heavyweight prospect. Not since the early days of the UFC has a 'pure' BJJ/GJJ fighter been able to sit atop the MMA world without rounding out their striking and wrestling skills. The only possible exception I can think of is Masakazu Imanari, who has had quite a lot of success at 145lb and below as pretty much a pure submission artist, but he has yet to be tested against the top names at those weights and has lost to more well-rounded fighters in the past.
Conclusion No-one who focuses exclusively or even predominantly in one particular, limited combat sport has had any significant or lasting success against mixed martial artists who do. Yes there are athletes outside the MMA world who - if they had or would focus on a sophisticated regime of cross-training - potential would or could have become better MMA fighters than the current crop of UFC / Dream / WVR / Shooto etc competitors. But not without training in a manner fundamentally identical to the manner that those fighters do. Fedor is the best because he is highly skilled in the three major components of MMA: striking, wrestling and ground-work, and weaves them together so well. No athlete coming from a pure one-dimensional art is going to pose anything other than a fluke threat to him, or to any other top MMA competitor.
On topic: The trailer for Ip Man looks good, can’t wait to check it out! Hope it's released in Aus, or is otherwise available with English subs.
I appreciate you singling out my post out of a debate started by baal, made a lot of sense calling me a troll regarding this now pay attention. How many fighters are there in MMA world? thousands. How many pro wrestlers did you find, trembling in a lame attempt to prove your shitty point and insult me? Two. How many of them respected names in wrestling? I remember Gardner beating Karelin, that was big at that time. Its funny thought you bring this up, he won his only fight in MMA, so how did my argument fail? its like the only examples you got actually support my point completely. Then its Kevin Jackson, 5.10 guy who was like 35 when he lost, one olympic medal, thats all he ever did. And he lost to an armbar? How hilarious is that. So thats it? TWO fucking wrestlers out of thousands and thousands "fighters"? And they not even unsuccessful? What did u point out haha why all the kickboxers? wtf that aint even a serious "martial art", i said myself that Klitchko took part in a competition and won it. Its like you have to post the only things you can find no matter if they relevant or not LOL about gracies, i meant them quitting UFC, obviously talking about the ones that made names in jiu jitsu world, i dont care which ones in the "family" try what and where nowadays, its irrelevant, chances are they not even good I loved the conclusion, which had no connection whatsoever with the post itself. Only "well rounded" "fighters" can succeed at MMA. And then you name fedor, who came out of sambo exclusively. Hahhaha. You have to use different elements to win, cuz you get in these situations where you have to. But he ultimately is a fucking sambo specialist, not some clown that took "MMA training". Style takes years to develop, if someone wants to learn to fight in a fucking cage, he might attend "MMA school", but he will achieve nothing above people who were specialists in their field so make it somewhat logical atleast, your post sucked and all your googling added up to poor 2-4 things that you scraped up out of all the MMA history. Embarrassing you even tried.
Baal's debate taught me a lesson, whether you are right or wrong, you need not to be condescending toward each other. Go make an MMA tread and go to town with it, this is a movie,
like myself many people are offended by baal when he bashed Martial arts other than the ones they use in MMA. I'm Chinese, I am well educated in Chinese version of history in China. When someone trash my national hero, of course I feel anger, it's a natural reaction. But all you really need to do is point out the logical mistakes like I did, there is no need to be condescending.
I was warn by plexa in my heated debate with baal that i was being too condescending, which i am totally agree. and I have already apologized to Baal via pm.
Right or wrong, give each other respect, even enemies that are fighting a war against each other gives each other respect why shouldn't we?
We should acknowledge that Baal is right about MMA, Kickboxing welting and bjj are favored under rules of MMA.
and Baal you should also acknowledge history, even if you don't belief martial art from China is useful in the modern age, traditional martial arts(any form of combat skill, eastern and western) have been used world wide as the only means of defense until guns came along, nothing you can say is going to erase this historical fact
let's be honest with ourselves, we are bunch of people who don't have a good understand of the arts of combat, we are talking about something we see and we read about, not something we do everyday for a living. And if one of you do this for a living you won't be debating with us, it would be a serious waste of your time trying to enlighten some one over the internet, because you understand that whatever you say would not matter in their minds without proving to them that you are the authority.
Let us just drop this whole thing in this thread, this is a thread about Ip Man the movie, not about MMA > Chinese national hero. Make your own thread if you insist in debating this.
Plexa will seriously start banning, even I get a warning considering i'm one of the first members of TL.net. So drop it and be civilized
Ill end my thoughts on the fact that while kungfu/karate/tkd/etc fight have been effective/badass likes rei states in history maybe, i think nowadays its been too mass commercialized and watered down. Thats why a lot of people think its ineffective.
I mean shit, in Ip-man you had people challenging dojo masters left and right, sparred each other all the time. A lot of places don't fight, they do katas, hold snazzy looking demonstrations, break thin boards, etc. And unfortunately, this happens more often in the 'traditional' martial arts than in muay thai/mma ones (my opinion)
I started this thread to inform you guys of a great action movie, I did not intent this to be a debate/argument to whether kungfu, martial arts is superior/infrior to MMA and all that jazz. Start another thread if you want to debate superiority, I thought thread trolling is bannable, post count shouldn't matter in this case.
On January 08 2009 04:02 ilovehnk wrote: I started this thread to inform you guys of a great action movie, I did not intent this to be a debate/argument to whether kungfu, martial arts is superior/infrior to MMA and all that jazz. Start another thread if you want to debate superiority, I thought thread trolling is bannable, post count shouldn't matter in this case.
Me and Baal been around for a very long time, the admins give us a little more space than others.
According to Donnie Yen, this is the first part of the story arc. there are 2 more in coming.
The movie was ok. Lacked some deeper plot and major kickass (maybe 1-2 good fighting scenes there). I'll give it 6/10, you won't waste your time watching it but you won't be overly satisfied either. Good stuff to pass some time and forget about it.
thoughts of the movie, I watched it in Mandarin, no subs. (cant understand Jpn conversation) + Show Spoiler +
The movie began with Yeh owning a hot wife, grand house, and godly YunChun*. Just seems fucking too perfect, how did this happen? lol. KinSanShan* (the hillbilly from North) had a great fight in the beginning, but after the Japanese invaded, it was shitass for him to comeback. Should be fighting against the Japanese, instead of robbing the cotton factory and getting his/their ass kicked -_-
good thing he didnt died like HuaYuanCha (main char in Fearless), or else we wouldnt have Bruce Lee today.
On January 07 2009 23:49 MassArbiterFTW wrote: Response to FOOD, placed in spoiler to avoid excessive thread derailing. + Show Spoiler +
You know, I've lurked TL.net since the day it was made and I hardly ever post, but the ignorance in food's post has provoked a response out of me, despite my strong belief that I'm merely feeding a troll.
Food, top MMA competitors dominate because they excel at the myriad of dimensions that comprise the sport of Mixed Martial Arts. Anyone who lacks well-roundedness will be unsuccessful, no matter how great their mastery of a specific, one-dimensional combat art might be. Since you asked for examples, I provide them.
Wrestling
Kevin Jackson Jackson won a gold medal in Freestyle wrestling at the 1992 Summer Olympics. He has an MMA record of 4-2, including a 16 second loss to Frank Shamrock by armbar. Hardly consituttes blowing away the competition of the time. His wins are all by submission, indicating some level of cross-training in any case, so he's not even a pure wrestler.
Rulon Gardner Gold medalist at the 2000 Summer Games, defeating Alexander Karelin. Gardner quit MMA after one fight (which he won), because he disliked being hit in the face - which wrestling in no way prepares one for.
Judo
There have been several elite judoka, including Olympic and world champions, that have competed in MMA. By and large, none of them have accomplished any great success against top competition. Naoya Ogawa, Hidehiko Yoshida and Pawel Nastula all have judo world championships and olympic medals to their credit. None have beaten top competition in MMA or held a major title.
Kickboxing
Numerous elite strikers have competed under MMA rules. Examples include:
Mirko 'Crocop' Filipovic Mirko is the most succesful fighter to transition from kickboxing to MMA. Whilst his rapid accumulation of take-down and submission defense elevated Cro Cop to the upper echelons of MMA, he has lost to most top 10 heavyweights he has fought, and never captured a major title.
Mark Hunt Probably the second most well-known K-1-cum-MMA competitor behind Cro Cop. K-1 World Grand Prix 2001 and multiple time World GP finalist. In MMA, has a record of 5-5, losing all fights he had against notable competition bar a ludicrous gift decision against Wanderlei Silva. Has been submitted in the first round multiple times.
Badr Hari One of the top dogs in K-1 currently, former K-1 heavyweight champion. MMA record is 0-1, lost to some fighter I've never heard of - by forearm choke, in 22 seconds.
BJJ/Gracie Jiu-Jistu Despite your claims, many, many of the Gracie clan remain active competitors in the world of MMA, with several having fought in the last twelve months - in fact too many for me to bother attempting to list. None of them are or will be top contenders, with the possible exception of Roger Gracie, who, given time to develop a more well-rounded skillset remains a potential heavyweight prospect. Not since the early days of the UFC has a 'pure' BJJ/GJJ fighter been able to sit atop the MMA world without rounding out their striking and wrestling skills. The only possible exception I can think of is Masakazu Imanari, who has had quite a lot of success at 145lb and below as pretty much a pure submission artist, but he has yet to be tested against the top names at those weights and has lost to more well-rounded fighters in the past.
Conclusion No-one who focuses exclusively or even predominantly in one particular, limited combat sport has had any significant or lasting success against mixed martial artists who do. Yes there are athletes outside the MMA world who - if they had or would focus on a sophisticated regime of cross-training - potential would or could have become better MMA fighters than the current crop of UFC / Dream / WVR / Shooto etc competitors. But not without training in a manner fundamentally identical to the manner that those fighters do. Fedor is the best because he is highly skilled in the three major components of MMA: striking, wrestling and ground-work, and weaves them together so well. No athlete coming from a pure one-dimensional art is going to pose anything other than a fluke threat to him, or to any other top MMA competitor.
On topic: The trailer for Ip Man looks good, can’t wait to check it out! Hope it's released in Aus, or is otherwise available with English subs.
Also don't want to derail the thread, but just wanted to comment that this was a great post. I know very little about fighting styles and fighters but this helped me learn a little something, thanks!
Saw the trailer, it looks very interesting. Will try to see it soon.
On January 08 2009 04:16 pokeyAA wrote: Who here saw flashpoint, another one of Donnie's movies? Story/acting wasn't too great, but damn the fighting scenes were awesome
EPT
