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2008 US Presidential Election - Page 66

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
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HeadBangaa
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States6512 Posts
October 31 2008 00:21 GMT
#1301
right = less gov't
left = more gov't

Defining leftists economics as "distributing economic power from few to many" is ignoring the massive governmental infrastructure that makes it happen. Left = more gov't. Weird that people even debating that. lol
People who fail to distinguish Socratic Method from malicious trolling are sadly stupid and not worth a response.
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
October 31 2008 00:24 GMT
#1302
yeah, because anarcho-communism and libertarian socialism are totally on the right
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
October 31 2008 00:26 GMT
#1303
On October 31 2008 09:13 Savio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2008 07:15 Mindcrime wrote:
On October 31 2008 07:10 Savio wrote:
On October 31 2008 06:58 Yourbike wrote:

So here is the dilemma, what will young Obama supporters do if it turns out he won't deliver? Will they be tricked by the apologists, and if not then what? Will they stay in the game so to speak and pressure Obama and/or join third party efforts next time, or will they become cynics. Because that is what usually happens to many people who wake up after their first experience with a "hope and change" campaign, they become cynics who don't participate in any way.



They'll become cynics and then I will laugh at them. Then Republican will start acting conservative again and take back control of the government! hehe.

What if Obama becomes Jimmy Carter?

Would that mean there is a Ronald Reagan just around the corner?


Another Ronald Reagan? wtf, we just had 8 years of Reaganesque suck


Actually, we have had 8 years of Republicans behaving like Democrats--fiscally at least. That is the problem.


wtf are you talking about

We've been over this before; Reagan, his massive military spending and the rosy scenario economic forecasts that he based his budgets on absolutely raped America's coffers.
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
Savio
Profile Joined April 2008
United States1850 Posts
October 31 2008 00:28 GMT
#1304
On October 31 2008 08:13 Physician wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 30 2008 13:59 Savio wrote:I don't know about this guy, but my own personal view of left vs. right is a comparison of the size and role of government. Anything that makes the government larger or more powerful is left and anything that makes it small is right.
So communism, socialism, liberalism, nazism--they all have a powerful state (I'm talking reality rather than the "theoretical ideal" which we have never and will never see"). As you go to the right, you have conservatism, then libertarianism and finally anarchy.

So America is farther to the right than Europe because by and large we have LESS government regulation, LESS government expenditures, LOWER taxes etc. Europe has a view of a more active role of government in the economy, health care, education, and everything else (these are generalities here--I'm not citing specific countries).

Now, this is not the definition that political scientists use, but this is how I view it. I think Hitler was as far to the left as Stalin was and as far as Saddam was. Neither extreme is good...but I am glad I am a "right thinker". We don't need more government controlling us.



There are African tribes that have absolutely no form of government, pay no taxes and yet they live as far to the left as you dare imagine in communal societies with no property rights etc.. And you don't have to go to Africa to find examples of nations with low size of government that lean towards the left.

Your definition is of course wrong. I do understand what you place more value on but it fills me with grief to see you misuse the term. If we all start inventing different definitions for every concept or word out there we might as well give up on the use of verbal language.


The more important point (rather than the word itself) is that in terms of outcome, Communism, fascism, and all forms of totalitarianism are the same.

The natural course for governments to take is go grow larger every year. Every year, someone can make an argument that such-and-such would work better if the government stepped in. And at the time, it all sounds noble. So the government grows bigger each year. After a few centuries, it is large. Given enough time, and the lack of conscious resistance and you end up with a large socialist state with excessive bureaucracy, low growth rates, and a country full of interest groups trying to get their "entitlements".

Back to the election at hand, all of Obama's plans sound noble. But they are all steps in the wrong direction. It takes concerted and constant effort to fight the natural expansion of government.

This is why we need more people people fighting to restrain the growth, rather than what we have on this forum...primarily a bunch of people embracing it all too fast and easily.

My hope for the future is that as people leave high school and college and start working and paying taxes, they come back to the center.

This is why the low youth vote does not bother me. In general, I trust the mature adults who have been in the real world for years more than I trust the students right out of high school sitting at the feet of their politically charged professors.
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery. – Winston Churchill
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
October 31 2008 00:38 GMT
#1305
any serious comment on the left vs right business in this thread is probably trolling.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-31 00:44:40
October 31 2008 00:44 GMT
#1306
Jesus christ. That's one the dumbest posts you've made in this thread. You're not in the center; you're in the far right and happen to make non-offensive posts.

The US health care system is absolutely atrocious and nationalizing it will be one of the best steps this country ever takes. You talk about bloat and inefficiency, but look at the administrative costs of insurance companies vs that of Medicare. We don't even need to look at the 30+ other modern countries that provide better health services than us, to see an example of government doing a better job.

Of course your response is probably going to be the CAHI study (or lazily link Heritage citing CAHI) without realizing the CAHI is an advocacy group for insurance companies and is very likely full of shit.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
KlaCkoN
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Sweden1661 Posts
October 31 2008 00:49 GMT
#1307
On October 31 2008 07:10 Savio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2008 06:58 Yourbike wrote:

So here is the dilemma, what will young Obama supporters do if it turns out he won't deliver? Will they be tricked by the apologists, and if not then what? Will they stay in the game so to speak and pressure Obama and/or join third party efforts next time, or will they become cynics. Because that is what usually happens to many people who wake up after their first experience with a "hope and change" campaign, they become cynics who don't participate in any way.



They'll become cynics and then I will laugh at them. Then Republican will start acting conservative again and take back control of the government! hehe.

What if Obama becomes Jimmy Carter?

Would that mean there is a Ronald Reagan just around the corner?

He'll become a new Clinton, he has to =p
God knows the west needs it, anything else means that our grand children will slave in shoe factories producing budget trainers for the Chinese middle class.
"Voice or no voice the people can always be brought to the bidding of their leaders ... All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger."
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
October 31 2008 00:56 GMT
#1308
China has a great opportunity to step up to the plate and they don't have much time to do it with an aging population, but so far they've just been pissing on themselves. They need a better banking system are probably going to get big in real estate next.

Another good article on both candidate's economic pplz
http://features.csmonitor.com/politics/2008/10/30/who-advises-candidates-on-economic-crisis/
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
HeadBangaa
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States6512 Posts
October 31 2008 00:59 GMT
#1309
On October 31 2008 09:24 Mindcrime wrote:
yeah because libertarian socialism are totally on the right

No, they're pretty far left. And open your fucking eyes; you aren't going to socialize private property and industry without a massive government implementation. Anarchy? Viva la revolucion! Totally off topic.
People who fail to distinguish Socratic Method from malicious trolling are sadly stupid and not worth a response.
fusionsdf
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada15390 Posts
October 31 2008 01:09 GMT
#1310
On October 31 2008 09:59 HeadBangaa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2008 09:24 Mindcrime wrote:
yeah because libertarian socialism are totally on the right

No, they're pretty far left. And open your fucking eyes; you aren't going to socialize private property and industry without a massive government implementation. Anarchy? Viva la revolucion! Totally off topic.


Look

youre using a really narrow definition of right and left that only the US uses

which is ironic, because both parties are to the right of the political spectrum
SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran."
fusionsdf
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada15390 Posts
October 31 2008 01:10 GMT
#1311
hey this is a chart used by professors and teachers across the world

[image loading]


fucking read it
SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran."
HeadBangaa
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States6512 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-31 01:25:10
October 31 2008 01:11 GMT
#1312
On October 31 2008 10:09 fusionsdf wrote:
youre using a really narrow definition of right and left

Yeah that's kind of the point (economic vs social alignment; individualism vs community). It's easier to speak of these things in 2 dimensions rather than 4.

that only the US uses

If this concerns you, why aren't you hounding every person who says "conservative" "liberal", and anyways, why would I use metric when I'm in the USA, I mean, really come on. You're a tool fusionsdf.

I've seen the chart, thx.
[image loading]


I'm talking about some fundamental shit, which seems to bemuse political science majors to no end, in my experience, since they are always caught up in abstractions and implementations. Causal analysis? I really think polisci should come standard with a double major in ethical philosophy.
People who fail to distinguish Socratic Method from malicious trolling are sadly stupid and not worth a response.
boghat
Profile Joined January 2007
United States2109 Posts
October 31 2008 01:24 GMT
#1313
Funny Colbert Report video about McCain from November 13, 2006:

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/182399/november-13-2006/mccain-s-depression
fusionsdf
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada15390 Posts
October 31 2008 01:29 GMT
#1314
On October 31 2008 10:11 HeadBangaa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2008 10:09 fusionsdf wrote:
youre using a really narrow definition of right and left

Yeah that's kind of the point (economic vs social alignment; individualism vs community). It's easier to speak of these things in 2 dimensions rather than 4.
Show nested quote +

that only the US uses

If this concerns you, why aren't you hounding every person who says "conservative" "liberal", and anyways, why would I use metric when I'm in the USA, I mean, really come on. You're a tool fusionsdf.

I've seen the chart, thx.
[image loading]


I'm talking about some fundamental shit, which seems to bemuse political science majors to no end, in my experience, since they are always caught up in abstractions and implementations. Causal analysis? I really think polisci should come standard with a double major in ethical philosophy.


how come I cant remember a single worthwhile post of yours? A lot like useless yes?
SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran."
HeadBangaa
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States6512 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-31 01:32:22
October 31 2008 01:32 GMT
#1315
How many fusionsdf appreciation threads exists? oh shit

HEADBANGAA = 1
FUSIONSDF = 0

I know you have a hard on for me, just cool it and stick to the issues.
People who fail to distinguish Socratic Method from malicious trolling are sadly stupid and not worth a response.
fusionsdf
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada15390 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-31 01:34:57
October 31 2008 01:33 GMT
#1316
lol

there are at least 2

but lets stop derailing this thread

in other words

I WIN MOTHERFUCKER
edit: llolololol your thread was by incontrol

naice
SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran."
HeadBangaa
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States6512 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-31 01:36:13
October 31 2008 01:35 GMT
#1317
On October 31 2008 10:33 fusionsdf wrote:
there are at least 2

Happy birthday thread, and...?

I WIN MOTHERFUCKER

Has rekrul ever called you his favorite poster? I think not.

lol ok im done /tangent
People who fail to distinguish Socratic Method from malicious trolling are sadly stupid and not worth a response.
fusionsdf
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada15390 Posts
October 31 2008 01:38 GMT
#1318
I lied

its at least three

but one of those was from GTR so it doesnt count
SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran."
boghat
Profile Joined January 2007
United States2109 Posts
October 31 2008 01:41 GMT
#1319
Rekrul called HeadBangaa his favorite poster?
Savio
Profile Joined April 2008
United States1850 Posts
October 31 2008 02:38 GMT
#1320
On October 31 2008 09:18 Jibba wrote:
Not that I'm a utilitarian, but Reagan did little for the greater good.


Thats amazing.
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery. – Winston Churchill
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