left = more gov't
Defining leftists economics as "distributing economic power from few to many" is ignoring the massive governmental infrastructure that makes it happen. Left = more gov't. Weird that people even debating that. lol
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HeadBangaa
United States6512 Posts
left = more gov't Defining leftists economics as "distributing economic power from few to many" is ignoring the massive governmental infrastructure that makes it happen. Left = more gov't. Weird that people even debating that. lol | ||
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On October 31 2008 09:13 Savio wrote: Show nested quote + On October 31 2008 07:15 Mindcrime wrote: On October 31 2008 07:10 Savio wrote: On October 31 2008 06:58 Yourbike wrote: So here is the dilemma, what will young Obama supporters do if it turns out he won't deliver? Will they be tricked by the apologists, and if not then what? Will they stay in the game so to speak and pressure Obama and/or join third party efforts next time, or will they become cynics. Because that is what usually happens to many people who wake up after their first experience with a "hope and change" campaign, they become cynics who don't participate in any way. They'll become cynics and then I will laugh at them. Then Republican will start acting conservative again and take back control of the government! hehe. What if Obama becomes Jimmy Carter? Would that mean there is a Ronald Reagan just around the corner? Another Ronald Reagan? wtf, we just had 8 years of Reaganesque suck Actually, we have had 8 years of Republicans behaving like Democrats--fiscally at least. That is the problem. wtf are you talking about We've been over this before; Reagan, his massive military spending and the rosy scenario economic forecasts that he based his budgets on absolutely raped America's coffers. | ||
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Savio
United States1850 Posts
On October 31 2008 08:13 Physician wrote: Show nested quote + On October 30 2008 13:59 Savio wrote:I don't know about this guy, but my own personal view of left vs. right is a comparison of the size and role of government. Anything that makes the government larger or more powerful is left and anything that makes it small is right. So communism, socialism, liberalism, nazism--they all have a powerful state (I'm talking reality rather than the "theoretical ideal" which we have never and will never see"). As you go to the right, you have conservatism, then libertarianism and finally anarchy. So America is farther to the right than Europe because by and large we have LESS government regulation, LESS government expenditures, LOWER taxes etc. Europe has a view of a more active role of government in the economy, health care, education, and everything else (these are generalities here--I'm not citing specific countries). Now, this is not the definition that political scientists use, but this is how I view it. I think Hitler was as far to the left as Stalin was and as far as Saddam was. Neither extreme is good...but I am glad I am a "right thinker". We don't need more government controlling us. There are African tribes that have absolutely no form of government, pay no taxes and yet they live as far to the left as you dare imagine in communal societies with no property rights etc.. And you don't have to go to Africa to find examples of nations with low size of government that lean towards the left. Your definition is of course wrong. I do understand what you place more value on but it fills me with grief to see you misuse the term. If we all start inventing different definitions for every concept or word out there we might as well give up on the use of verbal language. The more important point (rather than the word itself) is that in terms of outcome, Communism, fascism, and all forms of totalitarianism are the same. The natural course for governments to take is go grow larger every year. Every year, someone can make an argument that such-and-such would work better if the government stepped in. And at the time, it all sounds noble. So the government grows bigger each year. After a few centuries, it is large. Given enough time, and the lack of conscious resistance and you end up with a large socialist state with excessive bureaucracy, low growth rates, and a country full of interest groups trying to get their "entitlements". Back to the election at hand, all of Obama's plans sound noble. But they are all steps in the wrong direction. It takes concerted and constant effort to fight the natural expansion of government. This is why we need more people people fighting to restrain the growth, rather than what we have on this forum...primarily a bunch of people embracing it all too fast and easily. My hope for the future is that as people leave high school and college and start working and paying taxes, they come back to the center. This is why the low youth vote does not bother me. In general, I trust the mature adults who have been in the real world for years more than I trust the students right out of high school sitting at the feet of their politically charged professors. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
The US health care system is absolutely atrocious and nationalizing it will be one of the best steps this country ever takes. You talk about bloat and inefficiency, but look at the administrative costs of insurance companies vs that of Medicare. We don't even need to look at the 30+ other modern countries that provide better health services than us, to see an example of government doing a better job. Of course your response is probably going to be the CAHI study (or lazily link Heritage citing CAHI) without realizing the CAHI is an advocacy group for insurance companies and is very likely full of shit. | ||
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KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
On October 31 2008 07:10 Savio wrote: Show nested quote + On October 31 2008 06:58 Yourbike wrote: So here is the dilemma, what will young Obama supporters do if it turns out he won't deliver? Will they be tricked by the apologists, and if not then what? Will they stay in the game so to speak and pressure Obama and/or join third party efforts next time, or will they become cynics. Because that is what usually happens to many people who wake up after their first experience with a "hope and change" campaign, they become cynics who don't participate in any way. They'll become cynics and then I will laugh at them. Then Republican will start acting conservative again and take back control of the government! hehe. What if Obama becomes Jimmy Carter? Would that mean there is a Ronald Reagan just around the corner? He'll become a new Clinton, he has to =p God knows the west needs it, anything else means that our grand children will slave in shoe factories producing budget trainers for the Chinese middle class. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
Another good article on both candidate's economic pplz http://features.csmonitor.com/politics/2008/10/30/who-advises-candidates-on-economic-crisis/ | ||
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HeadBangaa
United States6512 Posts
On October 31 2008 09:24 Mindcrime wrote: yeah because libertarian socialism are totally on the right No, they're pretty far left. And open your fucking eyes; you aren't going to socialize private property and industry without a massive government implementation. Anarchy? Viva la revolucion! Totally off topic. | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On October 31 2008 09:59 HeadBangaa wrote: Show nested quote + On October 31 2008 09:24 Mindcrime wrote: yeah because libertarian socialism are totally on the right No, they're pretty far left. And open your fucking eyes; you aren't going to socialize private property and industry without a massive government implementation. Anarchy? Viva la revolucion! Totally off topic. Look youre using a really narrow definition of right and left that only the US uses which is ironic, because both parties are to the right of the political spectrum | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
fucking read it | ||
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HeadBangaa
United States6512 Posts
On October 31 2008 10:09 fusionsdf wrote: youre using a really narrow definition of right and left Yeah that's kind of the point (economic vs social alignment; individualism vs community). It's easier to speak of these things in 2 dimensions rather than 4. that only the US uses If this concerns you, why aren't you hounding every person who says "conservative" "liberal", and anyways, why would I use metric when I'm in the USA, I mean, really come on. You're a tool fusionsdf. I've seen the chart, thx. ![]() I'm talking about some fundamental shit, which seems to bemuse political science majors to no end, in my experience, since they are always caught up in abstractions and implementations. Causal analysis? I really think polisci should come standard with a double major in ethical philosophy. | ||
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boghat
United States2109 Posts
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/182399/november-13-2006/mccain-s-depression | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On October 31 2008 10:11 HeadBangaa wrote: Show nested quote + On October 31 2008 10:09 fusionsdf wrote: youre using a really narrow definition of right and left Yeah that's kind of the point (economic vs social alignment; individualism vs community). It's easier to speak of these things in 2 dimensions rather than 4. If this concerns you, why aren't you hounding every person who says "conservative" "liberal", and anyways, why would I use metric when I'm in the USA, I mean, really come on. You're a tool fusionsdf. I've seen the chart, thx. ![]() I'm talking about some fundamental shit, which seems to bemuse political science majors to no end, in my experience, since they are always caught up in abstractions and implementations. Causal analysis? I really think polisci should come standard with a double major in ethical philosophy. how come I cant remember a single worthwhile post of yours? A lot like useless yes? | ||
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HeadBangaa
United States6512 Posts
HEADBANGAA = 1 FUSIONSDF = 0 I know you have a hard on for me, just cool it and stick to the issues. | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
there are at least 2 but lets stop derailing this thread in other words I WIN MOTHERFUCKER edit: llolololol your thread was by incontrol naice | ||
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HeadBangaa
United States6512 Posts
On October 31 2008 10:33 fusionsdf wrote: there are at least 2 Happy birthday thread, and...? I WIN MOTHERFUCKER Has rekrul ever called you his favorite poster? I think not. lol ok im done /tangent | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
its at least three but one of those was from GTR so it doesnt count | ||
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boghat
United States2109 Posts
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Savio
United States1850 Posts
On October 31 2008 09:18 Jibba wrote: Not that I'm a utilitarian, but Reagan did little for the greater good. Thats amazing. | ||
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