EPTThe Richard Dawkins Thread - Page 14
| Forum Index > General Forum |
|
404.Nintu
Canada1723 Posts
| ||
|
Bozali
Sweden155 Posts
On July 14 2008 14:02 Nintu wrote: It has happened you ignorant fuck. It's called the Crusades. but why stop there? How about Roman Republic days! Let's conquer Greece and then kill Archimedes because he practices a level of science that is feared by our many Gods! Everywhere religion has been, there has been violence. Why? Because ever since humans could communicate, they pondered their existence and the existence of their fore-fathers. Religion has ALWAYS been used as a tool by politicians. It sickens me, and it skews the very nature of most religious teachings, such as "DO NOT FUCKING MuRDER" a commandment that was skewed quite liberally in the crusades. You cannot convince me that Religion has not been used as a tool to do harm. That makes the wielder of the tool responsible, not the tool itself. While we're at it, let's take away every gun in the world, because they cause most deaths now-a-days right? Fuck, let's keep putting the responsibility on the tools instead of the wielders. I feel more logical already. For the record, before I hit post, I really do apologize for being so frustrated with your posts. I'm sorry if it was uncivil, which I'm certain it was. I respect critical thinking, scientific thinking, and the logical mind state that Atheists are in. The trouble seems to be with convincing you to have the same level of sensitivity in interacting with someone who believes in the same thing, but also something else. Quote has been edited. I understand that you probably got frustrated by my last post and I will try to be more civilized. If I may summarize you're recent post as I see it: Basically you say that mankind has always been pounding on each other and religion has just been a tool with which to do this, just as a gun. I guess I would be called an optimist in your eyes. I don't see war as a necessary part of the mankind future and I do believe removing religion would be one step in the right direction. And yeah if it was that easy, why not remove guns too? Edit: Just a small clarification. I do not believe that you are a bad person at all. It is just the fact that you're doing things which have no apparent effect (ex. praying) for an unprovable reason that I think we have to address in the 21st century. | ||
|
LuckyOne
266 Posts
On July 14 2008 12:58 MyLostTemple wrote: well i think the point of the video is not to laugh at other peoples beliefs. but to show that when tested they do not metaphysically reflect the nature of the universe. that alot of the functioning behind these modes of thinking can be shown false. the example of the pasture reading the minds of the dead and channeling them to the living is obviously something that is fake and also damaging. while, generally speaking, astrology is less harmful it may not be very pragmatic to understand the world via this lense. did you know regan made a lot of his political decisions based off horoscopes? science is revisable. that's why dawkins thinks it should be the mechanism for our reasoning. if we turn out to be wrong, we can go back and change our understanding of things. i think he does the way he mention "primitive" to refer to anything that isnt science science is revisable. that's why dawkins thinks it should be the mechanism for our reasoning. if we turn out to be wrong, we can go back and change our understanding of things. what if the correct way of thinking turned out to be astrology like if they could predict the future successfuly even tho it makes no scientific sense. or something like telekinesis science couldnt go back and revise itself since these things make no scientific sense. nazis us,and soviets explored these ways during the wars. to try to get an edge. also the ressources spend into science is way more than those alternative ways (which makes sense since its the most useful for now) what if we pay 1million ppl to try and move a piece of paper with their mind all their lives. also of course there are alot of faker since their thing dont work yet kind of like some scientists make fake evidence to get their funding. | ||
|
Bozali
Sweden155 Posts
Eventually it comes down to cause and effect. Things happen for a reason. If someone moved a piece of paper with their mind I would not surrender and say science isn't always applicable. I would start investigating it and try to find out how it happened. To me it seems like you don't understand how dynamic the scientific model is. If it were to happen that it actually was magic that moved the paper, then that would be included in new scientific theories. | ||
|
404.Nintu
Canada1723 Posts
On July 14 2008 14:15 Bozali wrote: I understand that you probably got frustrated by my last post and I will try to be more civilized. If I may summarize you're recent post as I see it: Basically you say that mankind has always been pounding on each other and religion has just been a tool with which to do this, just as a gun. I guess I would be called an optimist in your eyes. I don't see war as a necessary part of the mankind future and I do believe removing religion would be one step in the right direction. And yeah if it was that easy, why not remove guns too? I appreciate your respectful new approach and once again apologize for my lack of tact. The summary is mostly accurate in my eyes. Some genius figured out how strongly people feel about religion and used it to hurt others, or to win an election, or to kick somebody out of a country, or murder someone like Socrates. That genius, and there are millions of them, is using his influence to skew beliefs that are fundamentally peaceful and loving. I speak about christianity at this Moment but other religions aswell that share a peaceful and loving nature. Christianity is about love and peace. Jesus, also known as Christ, taught love, acceptance, and peace. He was put on a cross and killed for it. Is it Ironic that Christianty was started from a man who was crucified because of religious intolerance? Christianity, that went on to be used as a political tool, and also has many sects go on to kill others in religious intolerance? Yes, it is ironic. It's fucking terrible and hurts me. An irony similar to owning a gun to protect your family, only to end up hurting your family with it. An analogy only needs to have 1 intended similarity, an exaggerated scenario to illustrate a point, and that is how I use this analogy. I don't mean, in any other way, to compare Christianity to a Gun. It doesn't even necessarily reflect my opinion on gun control. I'm merely drawing a parallel between something with an intended noble purpose, can be used to do just the opposite | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
| ||
|
Polemarch
Canada1564 Posts
Nintu, don't worry about how others can abuse the religion. How an idea is used has no impact on whether or not it's true. Darwinism has been misused to start genocides too (social Darwinism). | ||
|
404.Nintu
Canada1723 Posts
Just a small clarification. I do not believe that you are a bad person at all. It is just the fact that you're doing things which have no apparent effect (ex. praying) for an unprovable reason that I think we have to address in the 21st century. Well, first of all, also in the same post, I just want to say that I don't believe war is a necessity for the future either. I don't understand why you think I would. Why does it affect you if I pray, ESPECIALLY if it has no purpose that you see? I mean, if I started praying for shit, and I started manipulating world events, then yeah, then maybe we've had a problem we have to Address. But especially seeing as how it has no effect for you, isn't that, literally and scientifically, harmless? I admit I pray for a reason that I cannot prove to you, but I defend quite strongly my right to do it... especially seeing as how it does not affect you. Your wish to deprive me, or others of this harmless act, is similar to me trying to take SC away from you because you play too much. Is SC bad simply because people spend so much time with it? Is world of Warcraft evil? Absolutely not. They are harmless, and indeed have a lot of benefits within them if you try it, but there are correlations between the activity level of computer gamers and, say, soccer players. I mean, you really have to look past the shallow associations and see the good, instead of focusing on the bad cases and trying to lobby an activist movement against it. | ||
|
Bozali
Sweden155 Posts
On July 14 2008 14:39 Nintu wrote: Well, first of all, also in the same post, I just want to say that I don't believe war is a necessity for the future either. I don't understand why you think I would. Why does it affect you if I pray, ESPECIALLY if it has no purpose that you see? I mean, if I started praying for shit, and I started manipulating world events, then yeah, then maybe we've had a problem we have to Address. But especially seeing as how it has no effect for you, isn't that, literally and scientifically, harmless? I admit I pray for a reason that I cannot prove to you, but I defend quite strongly my right to do it... especially seeing as how it does not affect you. Your wish to deprive me, or others of this harmless act, is similar to me trying to take SC away from you because you play too much. Is SC bad simply because people spend so much time with it? Is world of Warcraft evil? Absolutely not. They are harmless, and indeed have a lot of benefits within them if you try it, but there are correlations between the activity level of computer gamers and, say, soccer players. I mean, you really have to look past the shallow associations and see the good, instead of focusing on the bad cases and trying to lobby an activist movement against it. You are absolutely right, in the instance of you praying it doesn't hurt me. What does (or might) hurt me is why you do it. Doing things based on faith without any rationality behind it leads to a very unstable world. All thought faith to you is, from what I understand, a wonderful thing. I believe that from "healthy" religion "bad" religion is born, if you will. Because of the healthy religion faith is generally accepted and because of that "bad" religion can exist freely. And by "bad" religion I of course mean people that take their faith one step further (or in the wrong direction) and does terrible things for no rational reason. Since I had no response yet I would like to add a personal question if I may to Nintu. You say yourself that God is unprovable and that you believe in a faith based God. What convinced you to believe in him in the first place? | ||
|
Dagor
Germany64 Posts
Everyone who is interested in Biology or Science in general has to read his books. He is maybe the best living science writer in the world and of course a very good biologist. I also liked his stuff about atheism, although i was an atheist way before i heard about him. On July 14 2008 14:36 Polemarch wrote: Yeah there are things that we don't know the causes for, like the placebo effect. That's basically magic (to the best of my knowledge). It is of course not magic. We allready know quite a bit about its effects and possible causes. Its just a very diffuse effect so there is not just one cause. And of course there are aspects of it that are not understood at the moment. And thanks for the Ken Miller lecture. I had not seen the new one. It is really a shame that scientists have to waste their time for something like that. This whole creationism debate is really just ridiculous. | ||
|
404.Nintu
Canada1723 Posts
On July 14 2008 14:53 Bozali wrote: You are absolutely right, in the instance of you praying it doesn't hurt me. What does (or might) hurt me is why you do it. Doing things based on faith without any rationality behind it leads to a very unstable world. All thought faith to you is, from what I understand, a wonderful thing. I believe that from "healthy" religion "bad" religion is born, if you will. Because of the healthy religion faith is generally accepted and because of that "bad" religion can exist freely. And by "bad" religion I of course mean people that take their faith one step further (or in the wrong direction) and does terrible things for no rational reason. It is true, that since the nature of Religion is illogical, that it gives way to actions that are not based on logic, which is a terrifying thing I admit. This is what I was talking about earlier about Religion being the strongest force in the world. It has the potential to do great harm, since it works in a way that is supernatural. The fear associated with this, I understand, and be assured I am just as afraid of this extremism as you are. I've seen extremism to non-violent but still harmful extents in my spiritual exploration which made me very sad and disappointed. This does not, however, say that you cannot trust religion. If you were to learn specifically what I believe, and how I pray, you would quickly learn that I only have good intentions, and am not capable of any sort of harm or danger to anybody. The things I pray for, are the same things you wish for. Etc.. Of course, there is no way for you to feel comfortable with everyone in the world, as you would have to assess each one, so it's easier for you to just want it all to go away. I guess I want you to understand that I am not a bad guy. And though the concept of prayer and faith is frightening to you because of how it inherently is, I want you to know that I myself, and the Christianity me and everyone I know practices, is something you should not be afraid of. I respect and understand your lack of trust towards this, and that others have. Hopefully we can reach enough of an understanding towards each other that some of the uncertainty and mistrust we initially have towards eachother, can dissolve. | ||
|
404.Nintu
Canada1723 Posts
On July 14 2008 14:53 Bozali wrote: Since I had no response yet I would like to add a personal question if I may to Nintu. You say yourself that God is unprovable and that you believe in a faith based God. What convinced you to believe in him in the first place? Edit: I decided to Spoiler it for those who don't want to read it. + Show Spoiler + I was raised Catholic. I was taught a strict code of ethics and rules. I grew up thinking that this is just "the way it is." When I hit 13 I questioned my beliefs. I never made any decisions about what I believe for myself and it frustrated me. I had no reason to believe in God, so I decided that I would figure out what I believe for myself. My family separated and my entire family stopped practicing catholicism and stopped going to Church. I felt liberated at first. I didn't feel guilty for questioning what I believed anymore. No more obligation. I was about 15 or so and you know how Teenage years are... I had issues with Anxiety disorders and Depression all my life, and my mom's side of the family is deeply impacted with mental disorders like those. After some years of frustration and a lack of understanding from peers and family, I became quite depressed and angry. I became suicidal and angry at my mother for having kids when she knew she'd pass on these issues with Anxiety and Depression. As I decided to kill myself I reached a final plea with myself. I gave myself a week to try and find God, as that would be a reason to live and I had nothing to lose. After 6 and a half days of exploration, I tried everything. Doctrine, passages, etc.. didn't help. The final thing I read was a teaching on faith. Without faith, Christianity is nothing. It's all just words. Faith is being pushed to the edge, and then pushed some more. When the world gives you every reason to disbelieve in God, and yet bringing yourself to him anyway. So I was pushed to my limits, and finally when I was pushed even further, I prayed. I took faith when God gave me every reason to let go. What followed was a religious experience that I won't detail because I will probably just be mocked, but it was something more powerful than anything I could every articulate. It was too powerful to ignore or push aside. It was too powerful to explain or try and argue... So I took it, and I walked away. Religious teachings now mean something, when before they were just words. Being born and raised Catholic didn't give me anything, and in the end, I had to find it for myself for it to be what it was meant to be. In the end, what does this mean to you? Very little, and I realize that. But I want you to know, that my faith will never cause me to hurt someone else. And my prayers make me happy, and have no ill effect. I promise =P | ||
|
ilj.psa
Peru3081 Posts
| ||
|
LuckyOne
266 Posts
On July 14 2008 14:20 Bozali wrote: In response to LuckyOne: Eventually it comes down to cause and effect. Things happen for a reason. If someone moved a piece of paper with their mind I would not surrender and say science isn't always applicable. I would start investigating it and try to find out how it happened. To me it seems like you don't understand how dynamic the scientific model is. If it were to happen that it actually was magic that moved the paper, then that would be included in new scientific theories. magic things that cant be explained by science. or else it would be science. if you could do anything you want with magics what would you need science for | ||
|
fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On July 14 2008 14:36 Polemarch wrote: Yeah there are things that we don't know the causes for, like the placebo effect. That's basically magic (to the best of my knowledge). But because it's measurable and provable, it's accepted scientifically, and people are looking for explanations as to the mechanisms. The same thing would happen with telekinesis. The fact that almost every phenomenon we've discovered so far has had physical mechanisms discovered is the main reason why many of us are naturalists. Nintu, don't worry about how others can abuse the religion. How an idea is used has no impact on whether or not it's true. Darwinism has been misused to start genocides too (social Darwinism). how is the placebo effect magic? we might not understand every little detail of how it works, but that doesnt make it magic. | ||
|
Polemarch
Canada1564 Posts
On July 14 2008 15:47 fusionsdf wrote: how is the placebo effect magic? we might not understand every little detail of how it works, but that doesnt make it magic. (Also @Dagor) haha OK to the best of my very limited knowledge. Forgive me for being loose with my prose. I was definitely not trying to say that it's actually unexplainable, just magic in the Clarkeian sense that it's sufficiently advanced that I don't get it (and had the impression that nobody else really does either, but I guess that was partially wrong). I'm curious though, does anyone have any better examples of well-known, replicable, phenomena that don't have a good scientific explanation yet? | ||
|
404.Nintu
Canada1723 Posts
On July 14 2008 16:09 Polemarch wrote: (Also @Dagor) haha OK to the best of my very limited knowledge. Forgive me for being loose with my prose. I was definitely not trying to say that it's actually unexplainable, just magic in the Clarkeian sense that it's sufficiently advanced that I don't get it (and had the impression that nobody else really does either, but I guess that was partially wrong). I'm curious though, does anyone have any better examples of well-known, replicable, phenomena that don't have a good scientific explanation yet? How about reli-- screw it, it's not worth it. | ||
|
Polemarch
Canada1564 Posts
hahah well played, sir. Relish is pretty mysterious though. | ||
|
rei
United States3594 Posts
| ||
|
BottleAbuser
Korea (South)1888 Posts
"Oh, everything is accelerating, and that takes energy.... but we don't see what's causing it, so let's call it dark energy." "Oh, we can measure that some stuff out there seems to be experiencing higher gravity fields than our measured mass of the surrounding area seems to indicate, which means that there must be more gravity-generating stuff (mass) out there that we can't see.... let's call it dark matter." Hum.... how about awareness? We don't know what it is, other than that for us, it happens in the brain. Probably. We know it exists. And we know the mechanisms by which the brain operates, kind of. But we still have no clue as to what causes consciousness, or how it works, or whether or not its possible to reproduce it in a machine (is a self-aware machine possible?). These three have definite answers in that a valid one won't be "it's impossible to tell," at least in principle. In contrast to "Is there a god?" which is in principle (and in practice) impossible to show either way. | ||
| ||
