EPTRusso-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 605
| Forum Index > General Forum |
NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. | ||
|
{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
| ||
|
Manit0u
Poland17843 Posts
On October 09 2023 07:40 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: This is horrible if even half true. I was pretty sure that every nation on Earth at this point in history would have MASH units. As well as a medical corps etc. https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/status/1711101286387528183 I guess it might be one of the reasons where there were videos of wounded Russian soldiers shooting themselves to commit suicide on the spot when they suffered a more serious injury (not fatal, but a broken leg for example). | ||
|
Lmui
Canada6223 Posts
It's dangerous to some extent, but if you can adapt the Trophy system to shoot FPV drones for instance, it would allow western tanks to handle drones. The only reason there's so much of an emphasis on 155mm artillery is that you can't fly a plane over to drop a single bomb exactly where you need it. You'd also have dozens of attack helicopters - yes infantry is dangerous to it, but Hellfires have a range far beyond what infantry manpads can reach. Just as an example, Israel has launched 1100+ airstrikes in the last day and a bit. Not sure what that translates into sorties-wise, but it's starting from a somewhat unprepared state on a holiday. | ||
|
Silvanel
Poland4769 Posts
| ||
|
zeo
Serbia6343 Posts
On October 09 2023 07:40 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: This is horrible if even half true. I was pretty sure that every nation on Earth at this point in history would have MASH units. As well as a medical corps etc. https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/status/1711101286387528183 Lets take a look at these sources. Namely https://vot-tak.tv/ part of Belsat TV. Belsat (Belarusian: Белсат; Polish: Biełsat; stylised as B☰LSAT) is a Polish free-to-air satellite television channel aimed at Belarus. The channel is a subsidiary of TVP S.A. From the outset, it has been co-funded by the Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs and international donors. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belsat_TV Into the trash it goes 😂 The propaganda pushers are getting really desperate, had a good laugh reading through that twitter thread | ||
|
Gorsameth
Netherlands22584 Posts
On October 09 2023 14:32 Lmui wrote: Israel vs Hamas is not a peer vs peer conflict. Not a comparable situation to Ukraine vs Russia at all.Just thinking about it, looking at the "combat" in Gaza strip, we forgot to some extent exactly what an advanced military force with air superiority can actually do in combat. It would've never gotten to the slogfest that it is now, because there isn't a chance that there would've been an opportunity to set up as many minefields as there are now. As many drone dropped munitions as you see, a JDAM from 20,000ft is far deadlier against an entrenched position than a frag grenade or mortar round. It'll kill everyone at the impact point and for a fair ways underground as well. It's dangerous to some extent, but if you can adapt the Trophy system to shoot FPV drones for instance, it would allow western tanks to handle drones. The only reason there's so much of an emphasis on 155mm artillery is that you can't fly a plane over to drop a single bomb exactly where you need it. You'd also have dozens of attack helicopters - yes infantry is dangerous to it, but Hellfires have a range far beyond what infantry manpads can reach. | ||
|
gobbledydook
Australia2605 Posts
On October 09 2023 15:58 Silvanel wrote: If Israel have tried that against Russia they wouldn't have airforce anymore. Its easy to bomb someone who cant shoot back. Israel also wouldn't try that against Russia. The modus operandi is to first degrade and destroy all anti air capability with missile strikes, then use air superiority to carry out the air strikes. | ||
|
Silvanel
Poland4769 Posts
| ||
|
Lmui
Canada6223 Posts
Being able to drop bombs or use attack helicopters on the Frontline makes a huge difference in the ability of troops to make and push through contact | ||
|
Ghostcom
Denmark4783 Posts
On October 09 2023 07:40 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: This is horrible if even half true. I was pretty sure that every nation on Earth at this point in history would have MASH units. As well as a medical corps etc. https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/status/1711101286387528183 Frankly I don't think it is all that surprising - even if it comes from what Zeo is calling a propaganda source. Anyone who has even dabbled in trauma medicine / mass casualty events will tell you that if you are not receiving healthcare within the golden hour your risk of exsanguination / shock increases dramatically. In MCI's it is quite normal that the majority of deaths actually did stand a chance of survival if only we could have extracted them in time. We are having difficulty doing it in lone wolf mass shootings - a battlefield is even less conducive as one might imagine. | ||
|
sertas
Sweden890 Posts
ukraine have like 4 aircraft in their fleet that can drop storm shadow and you can see how much damage it does to russia. | ||
|
zeo
Serbia6343 Posts
On October 09 2023 18:39 Lmui wrote: Not saying Israel could've achieved that against Russia, but they'd stand a much better chance than Ukraine of having local air superiority between having f-35s and a lot of 4th gen fighters. Being able to drop bombs or use attack helicopters on the Frontline makes a huge difference in the ability of troops to make and push through contact All those Israeli air fields are at an easy strike distance of the kinds of drones deployed in Ukraine/Russia. One saturated drone rush out of nowhere and all those beautiful F-15, F-16, F-35 ect get blown up before they can take off. The Iron Dome system can obviously fail we've just seen it happen. Ive seen pictures and video these days of Israeli artilley and munition just sitting there in a pile next to each other because they know Hezbolah and especially Hamas had no way of pinpointing where those systems are let alone having the capability of hitting them with their 'insallaha' guided rockets. This isnt only a problem of the Israeli military but modern armies in general. A lot of false confidance | ||
|
Silvanel
Poland4769 Posts
On October 09 2023 20:00 sertas wrote: Ukraine can achieve jdam drops with barely an airforce, they also can destroy anti air of russia with drones / himars regularly, of course if ukraine had 400+ fourth and fifth generation fighters russia would get fucked completely. ukraine have like 4 aircraft in their fleet that can drop storm shadow and you can see how much damage it does to russia. This is Zeo's level delusion, just pointed in different direction. | ||
|
sertas
Sweden890 Posts
On October 09 2023 21:18 Silvanel wrote: This is Zeo's level delusion, just pointed in different direction. It's not even close, russia has no proven track reckord against modern fighter jets, we will see how much the f16 will achieve anyway next year in the russia ukraine war, (and it's not going to be the amount of 316 f16 that israel has) | ||
|
Acrofales
Spain18441 Posts
On October 09 2023 20:00 sertas wrote: Ukraine can achieve jdam drops with barely an airforce, they also can destroy anti air of russia with drones / himars regularly, of course if ukraine had 400+ fourth and fifth generation fighters russia would get fucked completely. ukraine have like 4 aircraft in their fleet that can drop storm shadow and you can see how much damage it does to russia. We haven't really seen S400s in action against their intended targets: modern military airplanes. Sure, they aren't great against a swarm of drones, and some have been taken out in that way, but clearly there's still plenty of functional AA to completely fuck up any approach within range of F15/16s at least, and probably F35s as well. Anyway, part of the reason Ukraine has no airforce worth mentioning at the moment, is because Russia bombed their airstrips and hangars at the start of the war with hypersonic missiles and other precision guided strikes. What makes you think they wouldn't do exactly that to a couple of hundred more airplanes? You're comparing the capabilities of Hamas and Russia and extrapolating that what works devastatingly well on the former will work reasonably well on the latter, when the capabilities and situation are utterly and completely different. Sure, we could definitely hope that Russian corruption and incompetence has left their reserves of AA in as pathetic a state as their armored tanks, and vs the S300s a modern airforce would have a decent chance, but there is no real basis for that. Especially because S400s are one of the key components in a potential Russian defense against NATO, whereas armored tanks are not. | ||
|
sertas
Sweden890 Posts
On October 09 2023 22:20 Acrofales wrote: We haven't really seen S400s in action against their intended targets: modern military airplanes. Sure, they aren't great against a swarm of drones, and some have been taken out in that way, but clearly there's still plenty of functional AA to completely fuck up any approach within range of F15/16s at least, and probably F35s as well. Anyway, part of the reason Ukraine has no airforce worth mentioning at the moment, is because Russia bombed their airstrips and hangars at the start of the war with hypersonic missiles and other precision guided strikes. What makes you think they wouldn't do exactly that to a couple of hundred more airplanes? You're comparing the capabilities of Hamas and Russia and extrapolating that what works devastatingly well on the former will work reasonably well on the latter, when the capabilities and situation are utterly and completely different. Sure, we could definitely hope that Russian corruption and incompetence has left their reserves of AA in as pathetic a state as their armored tanks, and vs the S300s a modern airforce would have a decent chance, but there is no real basis for that. Especially because S400s are one of the key components in a potential Russian defense against NATO, whereas armored tanks are not. Ukraine has an air force that's been active throughout this war, and ukrainian pilots say themselves that they have to fly in range of russian anti air because of limited range capability and with f16 they could fire long before they're themselfs in the firing range. Sure I agree that you can't compare russia to palestine obviously. (You also can't compare 20-30 suhoy planes with modern f16/f35 fighter fleets) if s400 is going to be the answer to shutting down f16 i don't belivie it. If it was the answer than ukraine wouldn't be flying sorties with s27 (and other su) and migs since the first days of the war until today, russia would shoot them down already with s400 but that hasn't happened. | ||
KwarK
United States44290 Posts
| ||
|
zeo
Serbia6343 Posts
On October 09 2023 21:41 sertas wrote: It's not even close, russia has no proven track reckord against modern fighter jets, we will see how much the f16 will achieve anyway next year in the russia ukraine war, (and it's not going to be the amount of 316 f16 that israel has) And when exactly have these modern wonderplanes been tested against cutting edge anti-air systems? F16s have been shot down by MIG21s and 1950s antiair. The US lost 10.000 aircraft the last time they came up against peer anti-air. The F16 is a good platform to use for the long range missiles being sent to Kiev but sending them close to the front line with pilots that have little training in them? It will end badly. | ||
|
sertas
Sweden890 Posts
On October 09 2023 22:47 zeo wrote: And when exactly have these modern wonderplanes been tested against cutting edge anti-air systems? F16s have been shot down by MIG21s and 1950s antiair. The US lost 10.000 aircraft the last time they came up against peer anti-air. The F16 is a good platform to use for the long range missiles being sent to Kiev but sending them close to the front line with pilots that have little training in them? It will end badly. f16 won't be tested against cutting edge air defense systems in ukraine russia war (russia has no cutting edge air defence) | ||
|
KwarK
United States44290 Posts
On October 09 2023 23:12 sertas wrote: f16 won't be tested against cutting edge air defense systems in ukraine russia war (russia has no cutting edge air defence) S400 is meant to be a peer to patriot. It has been overwhelmed by drones and hasn’t come up against F35s before but nobody thinks it couldn’t handle F16s. | ||
| ||
