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Russo-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 606
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0x64
Finland4659 Posts
User was warned for this post. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8281 Posts
On October 10 2023 06:06 0x64 wrote: https://youtu.be/gTBxkUPG4a4?t=2192 A long talk from Asimov. Everything is super interesting, but you have to listen to this thing about war... Some interesting takes, but obviously missed on a couple of points. Especially the "A war can only last 6 days" idea. Or that no war can be fought because we'll run out of gasoline. I didn't listen through all of it, but if he didn't predict that wars would be fought with drones/robots, I would be highly disappointed | ||
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0x64
Finland4659 Posts
On October 10 2023 07:17 Excludos wrote: Some interesting takes, but obviously missed on a couple of points. Especially the "A war can only last 6 days" idea. Or that no war can be fought because we'll run out of gasoline. I didn't listen through all of it, but if he didn't predict that wars would be fought with drones/robots, I would be highly disappointed Well, I though the interesting point is that you can't have wars like World War 2. And since we can't have that, we will build artillery, tanks and planes and fight like gentlemen by drawing a line in the middle of a neutral nation. That sentence hits hard. Also the bit about the 6 days war was probably a reference to the 6-day was in 1967 in Israël. And to give context to that, he was speaking about a war between 2 small country, supported by a bigger nation. And he state that once the 6 days have past, the other big nation will then provide bigger weapons and the conflict goes on forever  | ||
Falling
Canada11607 Posts
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Simberto
Germany12086 Posts
On October 10 2023 13:57 Falling wrote: The economic unviability of large scale war was trotted out prior to WWI for sure and I think WWII as well. The prediction is consistently wrong as it seems if we want a war, we'll darn well get our war and a good long one too and to hell with the economist who says it'll last no more than a week or so. It might even collapse the government (Imperial Russia, Austria-Hungary), but by gum, we'll have that war. Yeah, the core problem with those arguments is that they assume humans are rational. Rationally, WW1 and WW2 were fucking stupid for all of the countries involved, except maybe the US. Everyone in Europe lost majorly, and should thus rationally have done anything they could to avoid those wars. And if all sides rationally know that they lose when a war actually happens, they should be able to come to some sort of agreement to prevent the war. But that is not how humans work. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4769 Posts
@Simberto Yeah. "Some sort of agreement to prevent the war"? There was an agreement about Anschluss of Austria. There was an agreement about Anschluss of Czechoslovakia. I guess Poland should also just agree to get annexed, instead of fighting, right? War is often the most rational option. Like I pointed above, life isn't just about the economy. | ||
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zeo
Serbia6344 Posts
Though the random shellings of non military areas in Donetsk kill civilians its not systematic, the antiair missiles that fail and kill civilians are obviously not deliberate. The Russians also on their part are very careful not to target civilians and try to minimize the chance of bad optics. I mean compare that to the kidnappings, executions, carpet bombings and taking out whole city blocks in Gaza and its all captured in hi-def. Gaza is a huge urban sprawl of 2,5 million people armed with who knows what. The Israelis will bleed massively to get anywhere into that with boots on the ground especially into ruins. Makes you think about the massive balls on the Russians storming Mariupol, a 500k city with 200k still trapped inside being used as human shields by 8k quasi-nazi nationalists ready to fight to the death. How they managed to pull it off with so few civilian and military deaths and without leveling the city... crazy. They did that while evacuating civilians the whole time. Bahmut on the other hand had its pre-war population equaled with Ukrainian soldiers inside of it. And thats an 80k city that needed to be bombed with many times the shells Israel has in stock to be taken. What you need to take Gaza, or even worse Kiev if its defended to the last... Its a lot, and you need to be prepared to lose a lot going in | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22705 Posts
I am utterly shocked, thank god the Russians are so careful about avoiding civilian casualties.... | ||
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Excludos
Norway8281 Posts
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zeo
Serbia6344 Posts
On October 10 2023 18:08 Excludos wrote: Only Zeo would witness this catastrophe unfolding and go "Well, at least Russia isn't murdering quite as many civilians!", as if we're grading on a curve here Russia and Ukraine are killing a lot less civillians than any two counties at war compared to the number of military deaths. Thats a fact. Edit: this is the Ukraine/Russia thread. Everything is supposed to be discussed though the context of the Russia/Ukraine conflict | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17872 Posts
On October 10 2023 18:36 zeo wrote: Edit: this is the Ukraine/Russia thread. Everything is supposed to be discussed though the context of the Russia/Ukraine conflict But wasn't it you who brought up Israel? In any case, we'll just have to wait and see when the situation in Israel is over if the total toll will be different. You also forgot to mention that pretty much half of the civilian casualties so far in Ukraine happened at the beginning of the invasion with almost 5k dead and 8k injured just in the last few days of February and throughout March 2022. Obviously right now civilian casualties there won't be as high since the front has somewhat stabilized and civilians around it have either left or died previously. | ||
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Simberto
Germany12086 Posts
On October 10 2023 16:50 Silvanel wrote: No. The core problem with all economic arguments is that for most humans there are more important things than economy. There are things for which we are able to take sacrifices. Idealism. National pride. Revangism. Religion. Security. Pick Your poison. @Simberto Yeah. "Some sort of agreement to prevent the war"? There was an agreement about Anschluss of Austria. There was an agreement about Anschluss of Czechoslovakia. I guess Poland should also just agree to get annexed, instead of fighting, right? War is often the most rational option. Like I pointed above, life isn't just about the economy. I didn't mean "everyone should surrender to Hitler" with "some sort of agreement". An "agreement" takes at least two sides, and in WW2 Germany very clearly wanted to push for a war. Rationally, WW2 was a very bad idea for Germany (duh). So Germany should have been very careful not to provoke a war if it were ruled rationally, and not do stupid shit like attacking Poland. War isn't the most rational option as a whole, but yes, sometimes you get forced into war because the other side is even more irrational. War is never the best option, but sadly it is sometimes the best option left available because the other side made bad choices. I think the situation which best fits this idea would be the cold war. Both sides knew that war would be a very, very bad thing, and thus actually managed to not get into a war (directly). There was still lots of shitty stuff happening, but there was no direct Soviet-US-war. | ||
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Nezgar
Germany535 Posts
On October 10 2023 16:54 zeo wrote: One major takeaway from the troubles in Israel over the weekend is just how few civilian casualties there are in Ukraine compared to the firepower being used. Double the civilians have died in Israel/Gaza in the last few days than civilians in Ukraine in the whole of 2023. Though the random shellings of non military areas in Donetsk kill civilians its not systematic, the antiair missiles that fail and kill civilians are obviously not deliberate. The Russians also on their part are very careful not to target civilians and try to minimize the chance of bad optics. I mean compare that to the kidnappings, executions, carpet bombings and taking out whole city blocks in Gaza and its all captured in hi-def. Gaza is a huge urban sprawl of 2,5 million people armed with who knows what. The Israelis will bleed massively to get anywhere into that with boots on the ground especially into ruins. Makes you think about the massive balls on the Russians storming Mariupol, a 500k city with 200k still trapped inside being used as human shields by 8k quasi-nazi nationalists ready to fight to the death. How they managed to pull it off with so few civilian and military deaths and without leveling the city... crazy. They did that while evacuating civilians the whole time. Bahmut on the other hand had its pre-war population equaled with Ukrainian soldiers inside of it. And thats an 80k city that needed to be bombed with many times the shells Israel has in stock to be taken. What you need to take Gaza, or even worse Kiev if its defended to the last... Its a lot, and you need to be prepared to lose a lot going in Only someone with his head so far up the Russian propaganda's ass that no effort could pull them out again could say such a vile thing with a straight face. Thousands of murdered Ukrainians would beg to differ. They would, if their voice had not been taken away from them through Russian bombings of apartment complexed, shopping malls, hospitals and other clearly civilian infrastructure. Russian military leadership, the Russian population as well as their shills, like you, couldn't care less about the lives of civilians - something that the Russians have demonstrated again and again over the last years and not just in Ukraine. You don't get to stand here and proclaim how considerate Russia is in how they murder Ukrainians you absolute fucking ghoul. Shame. | ||
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SamuelGreen
Sweden292 Posts
On October 10 2023 21:03 Nezgar wrote: Only someone with his head so far up the Russian propaganda's ass that no effort could pull them out again could say such a vile thing with a straight face. Thousands of murdered Ukrainians would beg to differ. They would, if their voice had not been taken away from them through Russian bombings of apartment complexed, shopping malls, hospitals and other clearly civilian infrastructure. Russian military leadership, the Russian population as well as their shills, like you, couldn't care less about the lives of civilians - something that the Russians have demonstrated again and again over the last years and not just in Ukraine. You don't get to stand here and proclaim how considerate Russia is in how they murder Ukrainians you absolute fucking ghoul. Shame. Yes, we can never forget that Russia is committing a (self-admitted) genocide on Ukrainians. | ||
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KwarK
United States44450 Posts
On October 10 2023 16:54 zeo wrote: One major takeaway from the troubles in Israel over the weekend is just how few civilian casualties there are in Ukraine compared to the firepower being used. Double the civilians have died in Israel/Gaza in the last few days than civilians in Ukraine in the whole of 2023. Though the random shellings of non military areas in Donetsk kill civilians its not systematic, the antiair missiles that fail and kill civilians are obviously not deliberate. The Russians also on their part are very careful not to target civilians and try to minimize the chance of bad optics. I mean compare that to the kidnappings, executions, carpet bombings and taking out whole city blocks in Gaza and its all captured in hi-def. Gaza is a huge urban sprawl of 2,5 million people armed with who knows what. The Israelis will bleed massively to get anywhere into that with boots on the ground especially into ruins. Makes you think about the massive balls on the Russians storming Mariupol, a 500k city with 200k still trapped inside being used as human shields by 8k quasi-nazi nationalists ready to fight to the death. How they managed to pull it off with so few civilian and military deaths and without leveling the city... crazy. They did that while evacuating civilians the whole time. Bahmut on the other hand had its pre-war population equaled with Ukrainian soldiers inside of it. And thats an 80k city that needed to be bombed with many times the shells Israel has in stock to be taken. What you need to take Gaza, or even worse Kiev if its defended to the last... Its a lot, and you need to be prepared to lose a lot going in Ukraine is constantly shooting down missiles and drones aimed at civilians. Gaza has no capability to do the same. Ukraine is a large and not especially densely populated country. Gaza is a refugee camp in which every militant shelters with civilians. Concluding that Israel targets civilians and Russia doesn’t based on civilian deaths is idiotic. | ||
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zeo
Serbia6344 Posts
On October 10 2023 21:03 Nezgar wrote: Only someone with his head so far up the Russian propaganda's ass that no effort could pull them out again could say such a vile thing with a straight face. Thousands of murdered Ukrainians would beg to differ. They would, if their voice had not been taken away from them through Russian bombings of apartment complexed, shopping malls, hospitals and other clearly civilian infrastructure. Russian military leadership, the Russian population as well as their shills, like you, couldn't care less about the lives of civilians - something that the Russians have demonstrated again and again over the last years and not just in Ukraine. You don't get to stand here and proclaim how considerate Russia is in how they murder Ukrainians you absolute fucking ghoul. Shame. What an edgy and progressive post for 'current event I only started caring about when I could farm upvotes from it'. Have a Reddit upvote from this uncool goul 👍 On October 10 2023 22:15 KwarK wrote: Ukraine is constantly shooting down missiles and drones aimed at civilians. Gaza has no capability to do the same. Ukraine is a large and not especially densely populated country. Gaza is a refugee camp in which every militant shelters with civilians. Concluding that Israel targets civilians and Russia doesn’t based on civilian deaths is idiotic. A lot of those missiles go through though and end up destroying military assets. Of course not if you believe the 115% interception rates. Anyway, something big happening right now around Avdeevka. Huge artillery/bombing campaign early morning and a push to Berdychi. UKR troops will counterattack though everything is now in a fog of war. Will be a dramatic change for thia part of the front if they can keep the positions. I saw the reports about ex-Wagner being sent to Avdeevka and thought nothing about it. Turns out they were planning this for quite some time | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4783 Posts
We shall see what transpires over the next couple of days - Russia have for quite some time tried to gain ground in that area. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14220 Posts
On October 11 2023 04:26 Ghostcom wrote: Considering your usual critical approach to sources I must admit to be slightly surprised at the quality of the one you decided to link... Well maybe not really. We shall see what transpires over the next couple of days - Russia have for quite some time tried to gain ground in that area. Yeah I wouldn't put much interest in it. It's very odd that it's not even the most prominent counter punch Russia has launched in the last week. Uaf is reporting it was three battalions of infantry with a diverse series of armored support. Then they got out of their vehicles bunched up like crazy and walked through we'll shelled fields like they've done probably a hundred times in that sector. I'm very surprised he didn't post about the attacks on Ukrainian flanks in the south or the continued Kharkiv offensives in the north. Those showed at least some success. | ||
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Taelshin
Canada420 Posts
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zeo
Serbia6344 Posts
On October 11 2023 04:26 Ghostcom wrote: Considering your usual critical approach to sources I must admit to be slightly surprised at the quality of the one you decided to link... Well maybe not really. We shall see what transpires over the next couple of days - Russia have for quite some time tried to gain ground in that area. In the context of me stating 'something big is happening right now around Avdeevka' i think its better to post one tweet showing multiple sources than like 10 different twitter posters posting about the same thing. If everyone is saying something is going on, the sensationalists as well as the cautious sources. Then its very very likely something is happening. What exactly comes from it remains to be seen. If they said '100 Ukrainians died right there and no medical help arrived trust me bro' then closer scrutiny is warrented. In this case it reported that there was a massive artillery preperation with over 200 pieces and a push was initiated with the slag pit heights being taken most likely. We've seen from the failed counteroffencive that a lot can be happening but at the same time nothing translating from that onto a map. Just endless videos of destroyed equipment and dead soldiers for 4 months. Will the Russians end up in their own debacle? Who knows what this is. But something is obviously happening. Take the same Twitter source and this event from yesterday: A Lancet hitting and destroying a Ukrainian SU25. A short explaination of whats happening in the video and the video evidance that that thing actually happened. Now if the Tweet just said 'SU25 taken out by Lancet holy shit guys trust me' without any video or photo evidance then I dont think its really worth taking at face value and the statement depends a lot on the credibility of the source. When I post something or talk about something i think about how someone will try to twist whatever I say and try latching onto the most meaningless and trivial parts to try and discredit whatever Im saying. So I try not to just post the first pile of crap that validates my point. The only sources I have a problem with are the ones posting blatant propaganda and that propaganda being peddled here without a second thought. Just take a second to actually think about someone scrutinizing what you post and your credibility will go up. | ||
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