Russo-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 317

Russian authorities have banned public discussions of a wide range of non-classified military subjects that activists say will effectively prevent the public from learning crucial information about the Armed Forces.

The 60-point Federal Security Service (FSB) order, which enters into force Dec. 1, lists information that is not classified as a state secret, but which “can be used by foreign states, organizations and citizens against Russia’s security.”

Among the subjects banned from discussion are the structure and size of the Russian Armed Forces. 

Other off-limits areas include weapons, troop deployments and training, as well as troop morale and crimes committed by members of the Armed Forces.

Mobilization and civil defense topics are also barred from being openly discussed, as are assessments and forecasts of Russia’s military and strategic situation

On December 01 2022 21:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Talking about troop morale is now illegal for russians. This will certainly be a motivator for those mobilized freezing in trenches without gear, warmth and food.


https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/12/01/russia-bans-public-discussions-of-army-strategy-troop-morale-mobilization-a79555

On December 01 2022 22:53 Ardias wrote:
if police would want to jail regular Ivan … what prevents it?

On December 02 2022 00:47 KwarK wrote:

Simplified this because y’all don’t have an independent judiciary that’s accountable to the people. The laws don’t matter.

On December 02 2022 01:11 Ardias wrote:

Then what's with all the fuss around the implementation of every other law in Russia, and why implement them in the first place, if they don't matter anyway?

On December 01 2022 22:53 Ardias wrote:

*Sigh* Hype headlines, bad journalism and intentional informational warfare do wonders when combined.

Now, you can take the list in this new FSB order:
https://rg.ru/documents/2022/11/18/fsb-prikaz547-site-dok.html
and compare it with the one that was issued on 01.10.2021
https://rg.ru/documents/2021/10/01/fsb-prikaz379-site-dok.html
Try to find the differences in points (hint, there are 8 out of 60 articles). And most of those just added some new definitions and clarifications. Like in Article 31 there was one definition "state information system" before, now there is two "state information system and object of critical infrastracture".
Or Article 4: "information about dislocation, purpose, construction, readiness level, use and protection of the objects of the military forces, units and bodies". New order just added: "Same applies to the objects of the military forces, units and bodies that are being constructed".
Also, the "morale" thing you mention is Article 14. Compare old one and new one to see if there are any differences.

And FSB order isn't law per se, you don't get a case started on you based just on it. So it needs a law to work. And if you check preamble, it says exactly to which law it is tied to:
"According to the Point 1 Part 6 Article 4 of the Federal Law of 14.07.2022 № 255 "On control of the activity on the bodies under foreign influence".
Before it was tied to the infamous "Dima Yakovlev law" - Federal Law of 28.12.2012 № 272 "On measures of actions on bodies involved in violations of basic rights and freedoms of a person, rights and freedoms of citizens of the Russian Federation".

So the FSB order is applied to the bodies and entities which are subjects to the aforementioned law. In this case - organizations and people considered "foreign agents". Ordinary Russians on forums and social networks do not fall in that category. Not that you couldn't be apprehended for something bad posted, but it will be done based on something like article 280.3 of a Criminal Code, which came into force 8 month ago. Both today's law and FSB order changed nothing in that regard.

So it's jab at the opposition and foreign press, yes, but not at the regular Ivan.

Edit: to be fair, I didn't read the article, assuming that what you wrote in the post and what is in the article are the same.
So basically article says the same that I did, but with a definitive premise that "law on foreign agents" would not only be used on opposition press, but on everyone else as well. Though since it comes from the people who are actual targets of the said law, their concern is understandable.
And the question remains, if police would want to jail regular Ivan for badmouthing Russian Army, what prevents it from using the 280.3 article right there?

Federal Law of 28.12.2012 № 272 "On measures of actions on bodies involved in violations of basic rights and freedoms of a person, rights and freedoms of citizens of the Russian Federation".

So the FSB order is applied to the bodies and entities which are subjects to the aforementioned law. In this case - organizations and people considered "foreign agents".

On December 02 2022 01:11 Ardias wrote:

Then what's with all the fuss around the implementation of every other law in Russia, and why implement them in the first place, if they don't matter anyway?

On December 02 2022 06:54 Jones313 wrote:


1. Is it simply illegal in Russia under certain circumstances to have an opinion one way or another, or is this guy opposition press, a potential "foreign agent" or otherwise lacking basic rights and freedoms of an ordinary citizen which is why he's being extra careful?

https://twitter.com/francis_scarr/status/1590729203485356034




2. Is it legal for bodies and entities who aren't foreign agents to violate people's basic rights and freedoms? I mean, dragging people from their homes at random and telling them "you're going to jail or you're going to go die in a hole" sounds exactly that. What are the legal grounds for this? Russia's not even at war, right?

3. Also, where exactly does Russia border Ukraine? Is there a map available somewhere? This is pretty important when it comes to Russian jurisdiction.

Not all of the ships that sailed south were part of the Royal Navy however. Merchant ships including cargo vessels, tankers and cruise liners were requisitioned to support the operation.
These were quickly transformed into everything from supply ships and troop carriers to floating hospitals – and their crews suddenly found themselves part of a major military operation.

On December 02 2022 07:01 SC-Shield wrote:


Navalny comes to mind. Did Russia start any investigation about his Novichok poisoning? Answer: Of course not, otherwise Putin will have to arrest himself and his men. Bonus question: why do you think he is in jail, far distant jail in fact?

Why should Russian judiciary be trusted at all? This "big, powerful country" is so corrupt, even the following countries are doing better:
- Kenya
- Niger
- Mexico (known for drug war, I'm sure you know that)
- Zambia
etc
Link: https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021
I have nothing against these countries but if Russia wants to be European power, its law shouldn't be on par with African countries. It should be on par with western EU countries (higher standard).

And of course Russia is corrupt. Navalny's YouTube channel is full of examples of Russian officials buying cozy estates in the west even if they like to talk against the west. It's all appearances as previous poster said.

On December 02 2022 07:29 Ardias wrote:

1. Didn't completely understand your question. If you are talking about people speaking in the article from Moscow Times - they are from Radio Liberty and some Moscow non-government organization (these are often in some form of partnership with US/European entities), so their concern is understandable, since they could be pressured even more now.
To answer about ability to voice opinions from general public - despite the war dragging for 9 months already, I see a lot of harsh vocal opposition still living and doing business freely in Russia. Makes a lot of patriots upset. Though if you are actively and offensively slandering and bashing Russian government and/or military - yes, comrade major can pay you a visit.

2. Legal grounds - laws on mobilisation and military service from the 90's with legal additions in this year. About "jail" part - seems I have to retract my statements from September about that, since after the start of mobilization there was only one criminal case filed (AFAIK), and it was turned down by the prosecution office in 48 hours.
https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/5605488
And yes, there is no official war declared. But neither was between US and North Vietnam (only South Vietnam and North Vietnam were at state of war officialy). Still, US sent their conscripts to fight there, and it was perfectly legal at that time.
Same goes for UK. Falklands war was undeclared one, yet it didn't stop Royal Navy to order a requisition of the ships of the UK merchant fleet along with their crews.
https://www.rmg.co.uk/stories/topics/merchant-navys-role-falklands-conflict

So either US and UK also violated basic human rights by this, or sending drafted/mobilized civilians on undeclared wars is a common world practice.

3. If you mean border according to Russian legislation - it's pre 24.02 borders, plus Donetsk, Lugansk, Kherson and Zaporozhie regions in their Ukrainian administrative borders.


Basically I should have repeat my question in reply - if everything is so bad and corrupt anyway, why go with trouble of implementing any laws, why drag Navalny through courts for years and years, why even try to poison him with Novichok? Blow him up with RPG or something, then say it was gas explosion and be done with it.

Answering your question on him - because authoritarian political leaders don't like active opposition. My question - why couldn't they blow him up somewhere at Moscow mayor elections in 2013 or something and be done with it? Why bother with all that legal stuff like sueing him, finding legal grounds to deny his president run, finding legal grounds to decline protest gatherings? Kwark said that law doesn't work anyway, so why bother?

Your statement about European power and transparency.org ratings kinda answers for itself, if you continue logic a bit further. Yes, Russia aspires to become superpower. But who said that it aspires to be European one?

Basically I should have repeat my question in reply - if everything is so bad and corrupt anyway, why go with trouble of implementing any laws, why drag Navalny through courts for years and years, why even try to poison him with Novichok? Blow him up with RPG or something, then say it was gas explosion and be done with it.

On December 02 2022 22:56 Dav1oN wrote:


This is your argument? Really? Navalny is in jail right now because of 3 simple reasons: 1) he survived the poisoning 2) he was either too brave or too dumb to return to Russia after that 3) kremlin want's Navalny to suffer in a jail in a horrible conditions, so he would serve as a "lesson" to every last opposition figure in Russia

Should I drop a dozen of examples of assassinations of the oppositions starting from mid 90? No even counting Litvanenko case. Remember Vlad Listyev? Or maybe Anna Politkovska? Or maybe what happened to Nemstov in 2015? It's not about political opposition only. Do you really believe that the people who's willing & capable of shooting civilian airplanes, sometimes even with foreign leaders on the board (president of Poland), doing proxy wars on the perimeter, are the same noble people? Don't be that naive, this is clearly a repressive & criminal system which is targeted on the people who generally would be net positive for any country, except in Russia (because of an ancient regime) :D