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I've calculated how much kWh costs in my area in Bulgaria. Electricity is largely unaffected (for home users) unlike gas and home users of thermal power energy.
Day time: 0.24732 BGN, ~0.13 euro/kWh (VAT and other taxes included)
Night time: 0.145116 BGN, ~0.074 euro/kWh (VAT and other taxes included)
I wonder if winter would cause energy tourism for some people. E.g. whether some would move abroad to spend the winter to pay less.
However, business pays significantly higher electricity and I think government still pays for some of excess. We have a nuclear power plant but as Artesimo mentioned, electricity market has been restructured which at the moment causes higher costs than usual.
My home uses 100% electricity, so I feel lucky not to feel burden of energy crisis AND not to sponsor Gazprom. Win-win 
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On September 06 2022 17:39 Artesimo wrote:This is slightly offtopic, but wouldn't technically no one to be blamed for the energy prices, but rather its the result of the 'merit order' principle of how energy is traded within the EU? My understanding how it works is, that the most expensive energy production dictates the price for energy that you buy off the EU market, so any gas powerplant would cause the prices on the EU wide electricity market to go up. Feel free to correct me if my understanding of how merit order is implemented in the EU. So really, if you want to blame anyone, blame the EU + Show Spoiler +while also ignoring that, according to my understanding, on average the EU has lowered electricity prices overall and vastly improved the EU wide electricity grid and this is just exceptionally circumstances causing the system to work against us. But if I am not mistaken, there are plans to address this, and at least in some countries it is planned to take some of the energy producers winnings away again. Curiously, the announcement that we intend to do this in germany was preceded by a noticeable drop in our energy prices. Funny coincidence.
Thanks for the replies, guys. Very illuminating.
As for 'merit order', isn't that just a different way of saying, we're increasing price incrementally until enough suppliers agree to produce electricity to cover demand? So, basically it says that demand is currently outstripping supply. I. E., we need to invest in energy production, and diversify it as much as possible. This is why people like Liz Truss have no compunction on supporting both fracking and green energy these days.
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On September 06 2022 18:50 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2022 17:39 Artesimo wrote:This is slightly offtopic, but wouldn't technically no one to be blamed for the energy prices, but rather its the result of the 'merit order' principle of how energy is traded within the EU? My understanding how it works is, that the most expensive energy production dictates the price for energy that you buy off the EU market, so any gas powerplant would cause the prices on the EU wide electricity market to go up. Feel free to correct me if my understanding of how merit order is implemented in the EU. So really, if you want to blame anyone, blame the EU + Show Spoiler +while also ignoring that, according to my understanding, on average the EU has lowered electricity prices overall and vastly improved the EU wide electricity grid and this is just exceptionally circumstances causing the system to work against us. But if I am not mistaken, there are plans to address this, and at least in some countries it is planned to take some of the energy producers winnings away again. Curiously, the announcement that we intend to do this in germany was preceded by a noticeable drop in our energy prices. Funny coincidence. Thanks for the replies, guys. Very illuminating. As for 'merit order', isn't that just a different way of saying, we're increasing price incrementally until enough suppliers agree to produce electricity to cover demand? So, basically it says that demand is currently outstripping supply. I. E., we need to invest in energy production, and diversify it as much as possible. This is why people like Liz Truss have no compunction on supporting both fracking and green energy these days. merit order means that cheap energy is bought first, and progressively more expensive, and often more polluting, energy is bought until demand is met. And the final bits of energy set the price everyone gets. So producing more cheap green energy wouldn't actually lower prices so long as the final bit of demand is still being met by expensive gas.
So we would either need to change up the market model and no long have the final electricity supplied set the price, no doubt a very complicated process with an incredible amount of negotiation required, or lower the price of gas.
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I think the gas problem won't be as harsh for residents (heating) as it'll be for industries. Near my city the biggest fertilizer producer in the country has shut down operations (which might affect next year's harvest) and there are rumors of beer production being ceased (Carlsberg shut down in Poland I think).
It's low impact now but it might have bigger impact in the future, especially if more industries will have to shut down to preserve gas for heating residential homes.
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Russia buys millions of artillery shells and rockets from North Korea. Is it due to HIMARS? Is it due to sanctions? Interesting times.
Russia has reportedly been forced to buy arms from North Korea as Western sanctions squeeze its ability to supply its invasion force in Ukraine.
According to US media, Russia has bought millions of artillery shells and rockets from Pyongyang.
Last week it received a first order of new Iranian drones, US reports said.
New Russian missile strikes have been reported across Ukraine, with a fuel depot set on fire in the Kryvyi Rih area and deadly attacks on Kharkiv.
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Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62804825
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On September 06 2022 20:06 SC-Shield wrote:Russia buys millions of artillery shells and rockets from North Korea. Is it due to HIMARS? Is it due to sanctions? Interesting times. Show nested quote +
Russia has reportedly been forced to buy arms from North Korea as Western sanctions squeeze its ability to supply its invasion force in Ukraine.
According to US media, Russia has bought millions of artillery shells and rockets from Pyongyang.
Last week it received a first order of new Iranian drones, US reports said.
New Russian missile strikes have been reported across Ukraine, with a fuel depot set on fire in the Kryvyi Rih area and deadly attacks on Kharkiv.
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Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62804825
Their expenditure of shells is probably a factor as well. Both sides fire volumes that neither would be able to support out of their own production as far as I am aware, so I'd say it is mainly that, but it did get exacerbated by the initial shock of the HIMARS introduction and the domestic production getting hurt by sanctions.
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On September 06 2022 19:09 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2022 18:50 Ghanburighan wrote:On September 06 2022 17:39 Artesimo wrote:This is slightly offtopic, but wouldn't technically no one to be blamed for the energy prices, but rather its the result of the 'merit order' principle of how energy is traded within the EU? My understanding how it works is, that the most expensive energy production dictates the price for energy that you buy off the EU market, so any gas powerplant would cause the prices on the EU wide electricity market to go up. Feel free to correct me if my understanding of how merit order is implemented in the EU. So really, if you want to blame anyone, blame the EU + Show Spoiler +while also ignoring that, according to my understanding, on average the EU has lowered electricity prices overall and vastly improved the EU wide electricity grid and this is just exceptionally circumstances causing the system to work against us. But if I am not mistaken, there are plans to address this, and at least in some countries it is planned to take some of the energy producers winnings away again. Curiously, the announcement that we intend to do this in germany was preceded by a noticeable drop in our energy prices. Funny coincidence. Thanks for the replies, guys. Very illuminating. As for 'merit order', isn't that just a different way of saying, we're increasing price incrementally until enough suppliers agree to produce electricity to cover demand? So, basically it says that demand is currently outstripping supply. I. E., we need to invest in energy production, and diversify it as much as possible. This is why people like Liz Truss have no compunction on supporting both fracking and green energy these days. merit order means that cheap energy is bought first, and progressively more expensive, and often more polluting, energy is bought until demand is met. And the final bits of energy set the price everyone gets. So producing more cheap green energy wouldn't actually lower prices so long as the final bit of demand is still being met by expensive gas. So we would either need to change up the market model and no long have the final electricity supplied set the price, no doubt a very complicated process with an incredible amount of negotiation required, or lower the price of gas.
I don't understand. Assume you have two producers producing 1 unit and demand is 2. The first is cheap green, the second is expensive gas. Everyone pays for expensive gas like you say. Now, you invest in green energy, getting a second producer of cheap green energy of 1 unit. If demand remains 2, it will be met by the two cheap green producers, effectively leaving expensive gas unused and resulting in a lower price.
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On September 06 2022 21:52 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2022 19:09 Gorsameth wrote:On September 06 2022 18:50 Ghanburighan wrote:On September 06 2022 17:39 Artesimo wrote:This is slightly offtopic, but wouldn't technically no one to be blamed for the energy prices, but rather its the result of the 'merit order' principle of how energy is traded within the EU? My understanding how it works is, that the most expensive energy production dictates the price for energy that you buy off the EU market, so any gas powerplant would cause the prices on the EU wide electricity market to go up. Feel free to correct me if my understanding of how merit order is implemented in the EU. So really, if you want to blame anyone, blame the EU + Show Spoiler +while also ignoring that, according to my understanding, on average the EU has lowered electricity prices overall and vastly improved the EU wide electricity grid and this is just exceptionally circumstances causing the system to work against us. But if I am not mistaken, there are plans to address this, and at least in some countries it is planned to take some of the energy producers winnings away again. Curiously, the announcement that we intend to do this in germany was preceded by a noticeable drop in our energy prices. Funny coincidence. Thanks for the replies, guys. Very illuminating. As for 'merit order', isn't that just a different way of saying, we're increasing price incrementally until enough suppliers agree to produce electricity to cover demand? So, basically it says that demand is currently outstripping supply. I. E., we need to invest in energy production, and diversify it as much as possible. This is why people like Liz Truss have no compunction on supporting both fracking and green energy these days. merit order means that cheap energy is bought first, and progressively more expensive, and often more polluting, energy is bought until demand is met. And the final bits of energy set the price everyone gets. So producing more cheap green energy wouldn't actually lower prices so long as the final bit of demand is still being met by expensive gas. So we would either need to change up the market model and no long have the final electricity supplied set the price, no doubt a very complicated process with an incredible amount of negotiation required, or lower the price of gas. I don't understand. Assume you have two producers producing 1 unit and demand is 2. The first is cheap green, the second is expensive gas. Everyone pays for expensive gas like you say. Now, you invest in green energy, getting a second producer of cheap green energy of 1 unit. If demand remains 2, it will be met by the two cheap green producers, effectively leaving expensive gas unused and resulting in a lower price.
That means that you're completely replacing gas which isn't going to happen. Consider the case with three units. There is currently 1 unit of solar and 2 units of gas. If you replace one of those gas units with solar the grid is better, but your highest cost is still the gas.
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On September 06 2022 21:52 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2022 19:09 Gorsameth wrote:On September 06 2022 18:50 Ghanburighan wrote:On September 06 2022 17:39 Artesimo wrote:This is slightly offtopic, but wouldn't technically no one to be blamed for the energy prices, but rather its the result of the 'merit order' principle of how energy is traded within the EU? My understanding how it works is, that the most expensive energy production dictates the price for energy that you buy off the EU market, so any gas powerplant would cause the prices on the EU wide electricity market to go up. Feel free to correct me if my understanding of how merit order is implemented in the EU. So really, if you want to blame anyone, blame the EU + Show Spoiler +while also ignoring that, according to my understanding, on average the EU has lowered electricity prices overall and vastly improved the EU wide electricity grid and this is just exceptionally circumstances causing the system to work against us. But if I am not mistaken, there are plans to address this, and at least in some countries it is planned to take some of the energy producers winnings away again. Curiously, the announcement that we intend to do this in germany was preceded by a noticeable drop in our energy prices. Funny coincidence. Thanks for the replies, guys. Very illuminating. As for 'merit order', isn't that just a different way of saying, we're increasing price incrementally until enough suppliers agree to produce electricity to cover demand? So, basically it says that demand is currently outstripping supply. I. E., we need to invest in energy production, and diversify it as much as possible. This is why people like Liz Truss have no compunction on supporting both fracking and green energy these days. merit order means that cheap energy is bought first, and progressively more expensive, and often more polluting, energy is bought until demand is met. And the final bits of energy set the price everyone gets. So producing more cheap green energy wouldn't actually lower prices so long as the final bit of demand is still being met by expensive gas. So we would either need to change up the market model and no long have the final electricity supplied set the price, no doubt a very complicated process with an incredible amount of negotiation required, or lower the price of gas. I don't understand. Assume you have two producers producing 1 unit and demand is 2. The first is cheap green, the second is expensive gas. Everyone pays for expensive gas like you say. Now, you invest in green energy, getting a second producer of cheap green energy of 1 unit. If demand remains 2, it will be met by the two cheap green producers, effectively leaving expensive gas unused and resulting in a lower price. I mean I did typeso long as the final bit of demand is still being met by expensive gas. Yes if gas is no longer needed to meet demand electricity becomes a lot cheaper but I don't think we are close to that in the foreseeable future.
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But that only works once you completely push out gas.
As long as demand requires even a single gas power plant, you have to the price of gas power for everything.
If you have 10 demand, and you currently produce 2 green, 8 gas, you pay gas price on everything. If you increase green to 7, you still need 3 gas, and pay gas price on everything. (I assume that in this case, the gas producers will try to underbid each other slightly, but you still pay gas level prices)
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Russian Federation617 Posts
Reports are coming about AFU offensive towards Balakleya with fighting near city outskirts.
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On September 06 2022 17:58 SC-Shield wrote:I've calculated how much kWh costs in my area in Bulgaria. Electricity is largely unaffected (for home users) unlike gas and home users of thermal power energy. Day time: 0.24732 BGN, ~0.13 euro/kWh (VAT and other taxes included) Night time: 0.145116 BGN, ~0.074 euro/kWh (VAT and other taxes included) I wonder if winter would cause energy tourism for some people. E.g. whether some would move abroad to spend the winter to pay less. However, business pays significantly higher electricity and I think government still pays for some of excess. We have a nuclear power plant but as Artesimo mentioned, electricity market has been restructured which at the moment causes higher costs than usual. My home uses 100% electricity, so I feel lucky not to feel burden of energy crisis AND not to sponsor Gazprom. Win-win
Yeah we pay easily triple the amount...
I too live completely without gas (or oil) but that just means my electricity bill is off the charts right now 
This thing where electricity prices are capped needs to happen ASAP
Producers of cheap green energy are earning ridiculous amounts right now and a lot of people struggle to pay their bills as a result
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On September 06 2022 22:17 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2022 17:58 SC-Shield wrote:I've calculated how much kWh costs in my area in Bulgaria. Electricity is largely unaffected (for home users) unlike gas and home users of thermal power energy. Day time: 0.24732 BGN, ~0.13 euro/kWh (VAT and other taxes included) Night time: 0.145116 BGN, ~0.074 euro/kWh (VAT and other taxes included) I wonder if winter would cause energy tourism for some people. E.g. whether some would move abroad to spend the winter to pay less. However, business pays significantly higher electricity and I think government still pays for some of excess. We have a nuclear power plant but as Artesimo mentioned, electricity market has been restructured which at the moment causes higher costs than usual. My home uses 100% electricity, so I feel lucky not to feel burden of energy crisis AND not to sponsor Gazprom. Win-win Yeah we pay easily triple the amount... I too live completely without gas (or oil) but that just means my electricity bill is off the charts right now This thing where electricity prices are capped needs to happen ASAP Producers of cheap green energy are earning ridiculous amounts right now and a lot of people struggle to pay their bills as a result
Yeah, one thing that is a bit annoying about the 'merit order' principle is, that the lower prices on average often failed to reach the consumers - which now becomes much more obvious than previously.
Coupled with the fact that germany has had problems with their electricity providers in the past. They got slapped once with a heavy fine for illegal collusion when it came to prices. They have been investigated by the cartel office after that as well, but 'cleared'*.
* The result of the cartel office investigation was basically 'situation in the german energy market is not great, but we can't prove any illegal activity. And a lot of the language used made it sound much more like they could not find enough to charge them with anything, but that they did not think they are innocent. I think German electricity prices have always been high in comparison for the public, and the fact that electricity prices went down just before the government announces intention to siphon off 'übergewinne'(exceptional profits from the current energy market) really makes me think our dear electricity providers have been a bit more bold about it than before.
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If you cap the prices it wont make it very attractive. People/Govt/Companies spent huge money on those wind turbines and other green energy in Germany, if you cap the prices where's the incentive. I Feel for the PEOPLE of Germany but its likely
that the green energy cannot sustain the entire country so its just basic supply and demand. All that said I'm sure the Govt will price cap or subsidize as I don't see what other options they really have at this point. The real question I see is, Is there enough energy/electricity to go around without Ru gas in the here and now?
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Here and now? No. It's expensive. But the system is designed to incentivize investment into cheaper energy. Too bad it wasn't done about half a decade ago, for example when RU started to use Nord Stream as a weapon. This would have helped people now.
Also, all energy production doesn't need to be Green or off gas. By diversifying supply, we also push down prices. Not least because we stabilize the panicky gas market.
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They can’t really do anything in the short term. Setting up power plants takes years, and I doubt the electorate is willing to pay such exorbitant energy prices for years.
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You don't need to do all of it at once. This sounds like a tautology, but reductions in demand reduce demand. And, thus, the price. And markets aren't snapshots of the day, they look forward. A quick look at the market shows that it's already working. Gas prices are going down again despite RU turning off Nord Stream 1.
Edit: Just to clarify: even if you merely reduce the number of gas power plants, you reduce the demand for gas and thus reduce the price of the highest bid.
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Why is the French president trying to act on behalf of the whole EU? Isn't trying to arrange peace negotiations on his own an unilateral action?
Macron:
"We must prepare for a long war. We must avoid escalation and prepare the peace," he said.
"Preparing the peace means talking to all the parties including, as I did just a few days ago and will again, to Russia."
Also Macron:
He also warned that Europe must keep up unity, noting that some countries were calling for a more bellicose stance or thinking of unilateral measures."We must not let Europe be divided by this war. European unity is key. The division of Europe was one of Russia's aim of the war," he said. France24
Alternative source that makes Macron's statement look more combative (I wonder which one is closer to what he actually said in French):
Macron vowed to “keep talking” to Russia despite criticism from some countries, especially in eastern Europe, which defend a hardline stance against Moscow. “We must do everything to make a negotiated peace possible” when Russia and Ukraine will be ready to sit for talks, he said. “We must not let Europe get divided” over the war in Ukraine and its consequences, Macron said, adding that the EU mustn’t align itself with “warmongers” or allow countries from eastern Europe to act alone in support of Kyiv.Washington Post
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I'm not sure if it's alright to rely on Ukraine's statistics, I prefer neutral sources at time of war for objectivity reasons but here it goes. 50k Russian soldiers have lost their lives since invasion:
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EPT
