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On September 10 2025 07:42 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2025 05:00 Mohdoo wrote:
Looks like Trump cut a deal with Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Allowing 7 Hamas officials to be assassinated in the capital of Qatar seems like the most clear possible sign Saudi Arabia and Qatar have agreed to let Israel kill/displace all Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank. Historically, all those Hamas shitbags were entirely safe and there was no way Israel would consider something like this.
Even though Israel's messaging lately has painted a very grim picture of completely wiping out Gaza and West Bank, this feels like a much more significant indicator what is to come. This would not happen if Israel had not been given the thumbs up. If they got the thumbs up for this, Palestinians have officially lost the last, faint glimmer of hope. Can you source this? If not, can you walk me through the head cannon of it? From what I can read Qatar did not know and is pissed and I've heard nothing about SA. And then your next is even crazier. Like why would A mean B FORSURE? Like couldn't this strike mean they are sick of killing fighters and civilians, when they just create more and instead want to kill some of the decision makers. Show them they are safe no where? Or a whole bunch of other possibilities?
Just like how SA and Qatar have been mad about stuff before? And Egypt? This is just how the game is played. They are puppet leaders who play the part of genuinely caring to make sure they don't get Arab Spring'd. None of what they say is real. Their actions completely and totally disprove the public narrative.
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On September 10 2025 07:54 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2025 07:42 Billyboy wrote:On September 10 2025 05:00 Mohdoo wrote:
Looks like Trump cut a deal with Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Allowing 7 Hamas officials to be assassinated in the capital of Qatar seems like the most clear possible sign Saudi Arabia and Qatar have agreed to let Israel kill/displace all Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank. Historically, all those Hamas shitbags were entirely safe and there was no way Israel would consider something like this.
Even though Israel's messaging lately has painted a very grim picture of completely wiping out Gaza and West Bank, this feels like a much more significant indicator what is to come. This would not happen if Israel had not been given the thumbs up. If they got the thumbs up for this, Palestinians have officially lost the last, faint glimmer of hope. Can you source this? If not, can you walk me through the head cannon of it? From what I can read Qatar did not know and is pissed and I've heard nothing about SA. And then your next is even crazier. Like why would A mean B FORSURE? Like couldn't this strike mean they are sick of killing fighters and civilians, when they just create more and instead want to kill some of the decision makers. Show them they are safe no where? Or a whole bunch of other possibilities? Just like how SA and Qatar have been mad about stuff before? And Egypt? This is just how the game is played. They are puppet leaders who play the part of genuinely caring to make sure they don't get Arab Spring'd. None of what they say is real. Their actions completely and totally disprove the public narrative.
So because they might be lying and have lied in the past, they are definitely lying now? And you know exactly how?
And on top of that you skipped my next paragraph. Your head cannon doesn't even follow it's own logic. Are you just being controversial for the shit of it?
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On September 10 2025 07:38 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2025 07:29 Mohdoo wrote:On September 10 2025 07:12 Nebuchad wrote:On September 10 2025 06:55 Mohdoo wrote:On September 10 2025 06:47 Nebuchad wrote:On September 10 2025 06:42 Mohdoo wrote:On September 10 2025 06:30 Sent. wrote:
Relocation is not the best outcome. To me it's like saying the best outcome in 1938 is deporting Czechs and Poles to Siberia because Germany feels like it's the only way to keep their homies in Danzig and Prague safe. Palestinians keep sabotaging their position over and over but that doesn't anihilate their right to live in their own homeland. My best outcome today is immortality and to ensure the happiness and health of all living creatures. I am unlikely to achieve that. So when I say ideal outcome, I am more focused on what is even vaguely achievable. Think about it like this: If Qatar and SA allowed 7 people to be assassinated by Israel in the capital of Qatar, what do you think Israel will be prevented from doing? If Netanyahu wants all Palestinians entirely removed/killed, do you think their right to live in their homeland is on the table? It isn't remotely achievable to do a "relocation" without violence, so when you try and wiggle out of "ethnic cleansing" by saying "relocation" instead, you are not focused on what's achievable at all. I think violence is *more* likely than relocation, not less likely. I'm not trying to wiggle out of anything. I am saying I think Israel is about to kill as many people as they feel like on their way to Netanyahu's evil plans. I feel like this is at minimum time number 900 you have framed my posts as defending Israel when I am very clearly describing Israel as having evil intentions and evil goals. I repeatedly point out how Palestinians do a profoundly bad job at mitigating these goals with jihad nonsense, but it doesn't change the fact that Netanyahu is evil. I've repeatedly described Palestinians as the most tragedy-stricken people on the planet. Just saying man, a year ago you were ready to use the word "ethnic cleansing" to describe what you thought was the best achievable outcome, suddenly today it's "relocation" and not ethnic cleansing. Relocation without violence isn't an achievable outcome at all, so your position last year was more logical. On October 08 2023 23:17 Mohdoo wrote:
I should have said ethnic cleansing. Israel seeks to have Palestinians not live there. Either way; every Palestinian parent trying to keep their kids there is a lunatic that should be prevented from harming their children. I'll be honest, I wasn't putting a ton of effort into the nitty gritty wording. I went into this with a general assumption people get what I mean. But you are right to point out I have been wrong in that assumption more than I have been right. I think the absolute minimum bad that will occur is ethnic cleansing. I do not mean ethnic cleansing isn't bad. Ethnic cleansing is very bad and tragic and evil. And I am saying all this because I am genuinely shocked and chilled realizing how likely it all feels. I just don't see SA/Qatar letting this happen otherwise. This is such a major thing to happen. Even ignoring everything else, there is literally no one to negotiate with anymore. Its kind of odd seeing how silent media on all sides of this conflict are. I am seeing very little speculation as to what this all means rather than reporting it simply as an episode of conflict. The implications are giant. I think if there's any kind of hope to be had it will be in a change of attitude from the west. Letting the fascists get what they want isn't a solution because what happens is just they move on to the next thing. If they are successful in ethnically cleansing Palestine, they won't go "Ok, this worked, so I won't be doing it anymore", much like if Putin gets some territory in Ukraine he's not going to suddenly become a pacifist, that's silly, he'll go after more territory. In the current situation the spotlight is on Israel's reprehensible actions much more than it has been at any point in history. This creates changes in public perception that at least have a chance of moving the needle. If there's another democratic president after Trump, it might be someone who has a view of this conflict that is more in line with the democratic base's view of the conflict. Is it likely? No, not really, the most likely outcome is probably still that they go with a Newsom type character who will chase the homeless and the trans people all across America until the next fascist is elected; but even that small shot is the best odds that Palestinians have had in decades.
I agree with all this. But in terms of what we discuss among ourselves on TL, I don't think these concerns apply. There's no potential to adjust attitude and other various political this or that among some dudes discussing stuff on an internet forum. We can just discuss the situations as we see them and speculate as to details and conclusions and whatnot. I am not ignoring the cultural/political dynamics because they are unimportant to me. I am ignoring them because I don't see them as real in the context of this conversation.
I hope Israel is "held accountable" to whatever extent they can be, and I hope we work towards a world where Israel is unable to behave in this way. I am just saying I feel like there's no real impact this conversation will have one way or another, so we may as well have an honest and upfront conversation about it for our own enrichment.
And hell, you could argue it is important for us to separate the macroscopic cultural/political efforts from certain conversations so that we can further improve our information, understanding, and capability to influence change by "training" with each other by exchanging information and ideas. If all we do is stay on message, we're not growing and we aren't getting any better any influencing change. We are not sufficient as we currently are. If we were, the world would be free of suffering. The presence of suffering is a direct measure of how inadequate humanity is in its current form. We need to strive for better through rigorous discussion and analysis. There is a place for diligent, stubborn messaging. But TL is not that place.
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On September 10 2025 08:01 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2025 07:54 Mohdoo wrote:On September 10 2025 07:42 Billyboy wrote:On September 10 2025 05:00 Mohdoo wrote:
Looks like Trump cut a deal with Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Allowing 7 Hamas officials to be assassinated in the capital of Qatar seems like the most clear possible sign Saudi Arabia and Qatar have agreed to let Israel kill/displace all Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank. Historically, all those Hamas shitbags were entirely safe and there was no way Israel would consider something like this.
Even though Israel's messaging lately has painted a very grim picture of completely wiping out Gaza and West Bank, this feels like a much more significant indicator what is to come. This would not happen if Israel had not been given the thumbs up. If they got the thumbs up for this, Palestinians have officially lost the last, faint glimmer of hope. Can you source this? If not, can you walk me through the head cannon of it? From what I can read Qatar did not know and is pissed and I've heard nothing about SA. And then your next is even crazier. Like why would A mean B FORSURE? Like couldn't this strike mean they are sick of killing fighters and civilians, when they just create more and instead want to kill some of the decision makers. Show them they are safe no where? Or a whole bunch of other possibilities? Just like how SA and Qatar have been mad about stuff before? And Egypt? This is just how the game is played. They are puppet leaders who play the part of genuinely caring to make sure they don't get Arab Spring'd. None of what they say is real. Their actions completely and totally disprove the public narrative. So because they might be lying and have lied in the past, they are definitely lying now? And you know exactly how? And on top of that you skipped my next paragraph. Your head cannon doesn't even follow it's own logic. Are you just being controversial for the shit of it?
I think we have enough information regarding both SA and Qatar to assess their messaging, their actions, and then compare each to previous events to ascertain "what's really going on". Or at least something close to what's really going on. If Qatar really had no idea, we would be seeing significantly greater fallout from this. This would be a colossal diplomatic disaster. We have seen basically nothing of substance.
Are you saying you view SA/Qatar/Egypt governments as genuine, truthful representation of each of their populations? We don't need to be tankies to admit they are super duper puppet governments who play the part they need to play.
The reason I didn't address your second paragraph was that it doesn't really apply if we assume my narrative. If Qatar is authorizing Hamas no longer having actual high-level leaders, this show of force does not actually apply to anyone. That's it. All the Qatar guys who have been immune this whole time are gone. Who would Hamas send to these negotiations? How would they do anything? You could argue it is possible this is intended to scare the living shit out of the Hamas folks on the ground/front lines. But the reason that would work is it would be a very clear sign the dudes in Gaza are 100% boned if they don't surrender.
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This is how the lifetime Republican people I know see this:
Putin and Netanyahu are making Trump look like the fake high school tough guy who fight.
Hey there my sweet Karoline... please...Spare me with the Press Conferences
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On September 10 2025 08:29 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2025 08:01 Billyboy wrote:On September 10 2025 07:54 Mohdoo wrote:On September 10 2025 07:42 Billyboy wrote:On September 10 2025 05:00 Mohdoo wrote:
Looks like Trump cut a deal with Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Allowing 7 Hamas officials to be assassinated in the capital of Qatar seems like the most clear possible sign Saudi Arabia and Qatar have agreed to let Israel kill/displace all Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank. Historically, all those Hamas shitbags were entirely safe and there was no way Israel would consider something like this.
Even though Israel's messaging lately has painted a very grim picture of completely wiping out Gaza and West Bank, this feels like a much more significant indicator what is to come. This would not happen if Israel had not been given the thumbs up. If they got the thumbs up for this, Palestinians have officially lost the last, faint glimmer of hope. Can you source this? If not, can you walk me through the head cannon of it? From what I can read Qatar did not know and is pissed and I've heard nothing about SA. And then your next is even crazier. Like why would A mean B FORSURE? Like couldn't this strike mean they are sick of killing fighters and civilians, when they just create more and instead want to kill some of the decision makers. Show them they are safe no where? Or a whole bunch of other possibilities? Just like how SA and Qatar have been mad about stuff before? And Egypt? This is just how the game is played. They are puppet leaders who play the part of genuinely caring to make sure they don't get Arab Spring'd. None of what they say is real. Their actions completely and totally disprove the public narrative. So because they might be lying and have lied in the past, they are definitely lying now? And you know exactly how? And on top of that you skipped my next paragraph. Your head cannon doesn't even follow it's own logic. Are you just being controversial for the shit of it? I think we have enough information regarding both SA and Qatar to assess their messaging, their actions, and then compare each to previous events to ascertain "what's really going on". Or at least something close to what's really going on. If Qatar really had no idea, we would be seeing significantly greater fallout from this. This would be a colossal diplomatic disaster. We have seen basically nothing of substance. Are you saying you view SA/Qatar/Egypt governments as genuine, truthful representation of each of their populations? We don't need to be tankies to admit they are super duper puppet governments who play the part they need to play. The reason I didn't address your second paragraph was that it doesn't really apply if we assume my narrative. If Qatar is authorizing Hamas no longer having actual high-level leaders, this show of force does not actually apply to anyone. That's it. All the Qatar guys who have been immune this whole time are gone. Who would Hamas send to these negotiations? How would they do anything? You could argue it is possible this is intended to scare the living shit out of the Hamas folks on the ground/front lines. But the reason that would work is it would be a very clear sign the dudes in Gaza are 100% boned if they don't surrender.
No, I don't trust the government messaging. I just don't think it is a binary question of your guess or the absolute truth.
Next they would send the same negotiators, since Hamas already confirmed it was none of them.
Hamas said that an Israeli strike in Doha killed five members but did not assassinate the negotiating delegation.
“We affirm the enemy’s failure to assassinate the brothers in the negotiating delegation,” the militant group said in a statement, adding that five of its members were killed in the strike.
Hamas say's they failed, which is interesting framing, but I also don't believe what they said. I think Israel hit who was intended and it was a clear message after the attack in Jerusalem. We can get you anywhere. Now is that because they want them to end the war by giving up all power in Gaza, yes. That seems a hell of a lot more likely than, they tried to kill all the negotiators so that they could kill all the Gazan's. They could have, and could do that basically anytime.
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We very rarely deal with absolute truth. Please just assume every time I indicate certainty, it is of course within the bounds of what any of us are actually capable of. This is like nitty gritty top secret diplomatic stuff. Ain’t nobody have a clue other than reading between lines and other such things. But within the realm of the speculation we are confined to, my assessment is the only one I’ve got
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On September 10 2025 05:00 Mohdoo wrote:
Looks like Trump cut a deal with Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Allowing 7 Hamas officials to be assassinated in the capital of Qatar seems like the most clear possible sign Saudi Arabia and Qatar have agreed to let Israel kill/displace all Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank. Historically, all those Hamas shitbags were entirely safe and there was no way Israel would consider something like this.
There is absolutely no chance Qatar approved this, this gets them nothing but humiliation.
I bet there will be at least one Qatari citizen buried in that rubble.
The strike was a classic fait accompli by Israel.
Chances are even US was left with no choice but to stand down or shoot down.
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On September 09 2025 16:23 Magic Powers wrote:I'll respond to this part first: Show nested quote +I challenge this assessment as,
- this long-lasting ceasefire did not occur and the situation, as a matter of fact, even worsened at times
- a ceasefire was only established in January 2025, meaning over a year has passed between the call for it and the enactment
- there was no immediate ceasefire and the situation, especially in northern Gaza worsened dramatically and we don't even have 500 confirmed starvation deaths (and yes, I will say it again: even one would be too many, so all of you reading this: safe your cynicism... it is a fucking war and bad things happen). The food situation worsened over time, not instantly. It's explained that there are valid reasons for why the famine wasn't called sooner, such as existing food supply (prior to the conflict I assume?). However, what people need to understand is that confirmed casualties are not true casualties, and likewise confirmed deaths from starvation are also not true deaths from starvation. The true numbers are, without a doubt, much higher. Under-reporting is expected, which is why likewise nobody knows how many people have really died as a consequence of the war. The estimates range from around 60-70k all the way up to 200k. Some people would argue it could be even more than that. Deaths from starvation must be treated similarly. When a few hundred are being reported, we can safely assume it's closer to a thousand or in an extreme case could be even several thousand. And these estimates are real and credible, they're not made up or anything. They're based on valid research. And it's not just one research group coming up with such estimates, it's a whole host of them. They always put the real estimates much higher than the reported cases. This is not bias, this is professional experience. So why wasn't famine called in 2024? Nobody really knows, and it doesn't really matter. What we do know is that Gaza was on the brink of famine for a very long time. This is not an exaggeration at all. Very few experts said that so many thousands of people in Gaza would immediately start dying as a consequence, instead they described it as a serious risk. Most importantly, their goal wasn't to let people die and then prove that they were right, their goal was to save people and then hopefully never get proven right. And this is what I need you to understand. When famine doesn't get declared, that's a win for us. We are celebrating when famine doesn't happen. We're not eagerly sitting here hoping for a famine just so we can say "see, we were right". And that is also why I'm now so pissed that famine has finally been declared. This is the nightmare scenario that people have warned us of for so many months. It's real now, which means the risk was real, it means the predictions were right. They just warned us long ahead of the disaster rather than shortly before it would happen - because the goal was to prevent it, not just to warn of it. I put this next part in the back of my comment, because I want my response to prioritize the discussion and not get into the bickering aspect right away: You've likewise been "insanely wrong" about things before. Don't think to yourself you're somehow superior to other people. Everyone blunders, including you. Everyone has blind spots. People who believe that they are incapable of making a blunder while reading articles or while discussing things are full of shit. Everyone has the capacity for it. Literally everyone. The 150 IQ person you might be friends with? Yes, even that one. Even they blunder. Don't think too highly of yourself, or too lowly of others. Take this as a general life advice. It will help you view other people and yourself with greater fairness and less hostility. We're all humans, nobody is an angel. It's not about whether we blunder. It's about our capacity to admit to blundering and moving on and sticking to the core of the argument rather than derailing it. I almost never see people in this forum admit literally anything ever. There are about two other people besides myself in both this thread and the US thread who I've seen admit fault before. It can't be a lot more than that. Somehow people appear to be incapable of admitting fault. It's absurd that those are also the exact same people who like to accuse me and others of being incapable of admitting fault, while I have in fact admitted fault plenty of times. This needs to change. People need more self-awareness. This accusatory and antagonistic behavior coupled with a complete lack of self-awareness has gotten out of control.
There are protocols in place. Thresholds to be met. "Nobody really knows" doesn't cut it.
If humanitarian organizations make estimations about famines they usually are quite accurate. Here they were wrong in the hundreds of thousands.
Last time, when there were disagreements about numbers, I told you guys to sit back and watch, as we can't know yet if the Gazan MoH numbers or the estimations of humanitarian organizations are reliable, based on the observations of impossible data sets. Turns out, they were silently corrected downwards in the thousands. I don't sense much understanding of the point I am raising, so I will do the same as last time, as I won't discuss based on estimations: We need more data before making a judgement, in my opinion.
And just to be clear, so there are not further misunderstandings or misinterpretations: The annual Gazan natural death toll varied from 6.5 to 9k. Let's go with the lower number... this would mean 6.5k Gazans would have died anyway per year. Having nearly reached a horrible 2-year-anniversary, you have to subtract 13k dead from the total death count. As mostly elderly or super young die naturally, this also marks a shift to better the civilian-to-soldier-casualty rate, where once again it can be observed, that Israel is faring similar to comparable conflicts.
I simply hope that the humanitarian situation in Gaza city and the rest of the strip will be resolved rather sooner than later.
I make an effort to double- or triple-check my statements because I know my perspective is unpopular. I do so to avoid slip-ups against the supposedly morally correct side, so I am truly curious: Where have I been "insanely wrong" on factual things like numbers or dates?
On September 09 2025 21:44 Jankisa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2025 14:42 PremoBeats wrote:
Ultra-strawman.
Because I never defended starvation as a tactic. I called it a warcrime, called out Israel for it several times and wrote that Israel itself and singular officials and soldiers complicit in this warcrime and others should be held accountable. This has nothing to do with being heartless, but with misinterpretations.
This isn't even about any kind of defense for Israel but about preposterously wrong statements regarding this conflict being called out for what they are.
Seriously, this is exactly what I called out in my rant on the previous page. This is why no one critical of what is spread here is posting regularly... you guys simply are not able to distinguish between facts and emotion and make emotional appeals instead of addressing what is actually written. If someone comes to this thread to do 2 things: 1. Claim Israel is not committing genocide 2. Claim that there is no famine in Gaza And somewhere inside multiple page posts puts a few "if this was happening it's to be condemned" that doesn't make what they are doing any less of a shitty thing to do. You, to me, are one of the "well, the number of dead Jews in the Holocaust is not 6 million" guys who will also throw in "of course I don't agree that people should be exterminated", but you still spend most of your time leaving long posts about how Holocaust was exaggerated. You can claim until you are blue in the face that you aren't a Holocaust denier, but you are doing all the things that a Holocaust denier does, so, you are one. In this thread, you are spending, comparatively, almost no time (and I don't have the patience of MP to read everything what you write because, again, I don't care about nitpicking and definitions when it comes to human suffering) empathizing with the victims and putting blame on the aggressors, instead of you are spending most of your time trying to minimize the blame of Israel. Also, this is a thread where anyone can post whatever they want, as long as it's on topic, my comments or other peoples posts about actual things that are ongoing and escalating are just as valid as your genocide and famine denial, and as long as people engage with either or those they are valid things to post, hell, even if it's shouting into the void it's still valid. I honestly prefer that guys like KwarK or Billiboy who also reflexively defend Israel don't post here anymore because it makes me lose faith in humanity that people, even smart and otherwise politically aligned people can be so blindsided and defend things that are, to me, indefensible.
My position is indefensible to you, yet I haven't seen you meaningfully engage with any of my posts. Appeals to emotion, outrage and slanders... not much more.
And I completely accept that there are other opinions.. you all are free to over and over post news that paint Israel in a bad light. But once in a while, some factual corrections are necessary and that is something you don't seem to be able to handle.
After all, this is a thread about the whole situation not a "Israel=bad"-thread.
I explained how the genocide label has been reframed to be put on Israel and that it should retain its legal definition. Or how I don't see a genocide unfold, when the civilian-to-soldier casualty rates are still below comparable conflicts, while much more difficult circumstances like human shield tactics and a higher rate of children, journalists and humanitarian workers are present and on top not one military memo of genocide has surfaced.
I further never denied that famine like conditions are prevalent in Gaza, but simply pointed out that it is odd how the calculations have been established (taking specific time frames to raise the average), which hasn't been done in other conflicts.
You can either engage with these takes or don't. I don't mind either way, but I won't stop posting my opinion or hard facts, simply because you can't handle them or are emotionally outraged, no matter how often you call me names or a Holocaust denier (which is absolutely ridiculous, hypocritical and utterly inappropriate).
And just to be clear: The aggressor was Hamas. Their unneeded attack to achieve their goal of exterminating Israel and the Jews, which is founded in religious fundamentalism, is the cause of this war. So far, they have not surrendered and I ask these questions in all seriousness: Should Israel simply leave the hostages and the bodies in their hands? Should they have simply accepted the self declared genocidal massacre two years ago?
People in Gaza drove cars, lived in apartment blocks, studied abroad - even in the States and Europe. Life expectancy was close to the global average. Not everything was perfect - especially with the blockade around - but it could have been even better if Hamas hadn't used millions of funds and aid to build a tunnel and terror network. But they completely fucked their population on October 7th. So no, I won't let it fly to paint Israel as the aggressor in this ongoing conflict, simply because they have the means to strike back asymmetrically. All of this wouldn't have happened without October 7th.
On September 10 2025 06:55 Mohdoo wrote:
I feel like this is at minimum time number 900 you have framed my posts as defending Israel when I am very clearly describing Israel as having evil intentions and evil goals. I repeatedly point out how Palestinians do a profoundly bad job at mitigating these goals with jihad nonsense, but it doesn't change the fact that Netanyahu is evil.
Nebuchad mischaracterizing other users? Now that's a new one.
On September 10 2025 06:55 Mohdoo wrote:
I've repeatedly described Palestinians as the most tragedy-stricken people on the planet.
Humanitarily I'd chip in Kongo... decades of conflict with millions dead, mass displacement (over 7 million), ongoing massacres... extreme poverty, very little international visibility. The Rohingya also might take a share, but Gaza, Kongo and the Rohingya alongside Sudan probably can count as the 4 horsemen.
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On September 10 2025 08:29 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2025 08:01 Billyboy wrote:On September 10 2025 07:54 Mohdoo wrote:On September 10 2025 07:42 Billyboy wrote:On September 10 2025 05:00 Mohdoo wrote:
Looks like Trump cut a deal with Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Allowing 7 Hamas officials to be assassinated in the capital of Qatar seems like the most clear possible sign Saudi Arabia and Qatar have agreed to let Israel kill/displace all Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank. Historically, all those Hamas shitbags were entirely safe and there was no way Israel would consider something like this.
Even though Israel's messaging lately has painted a very grim picture of completely wiping out Gaza and West Bank, this feels like a much more significant indicator what is to come. This would not happen if Israel had not been given the thumbs up. If they got the thumbs up for this, Palestinians have officially lost the last, faint glimmer of hope. Can you source this? If not, can you walk me through the head cannon of it? From what I can read Qatar did not know and is pissed and I've heard nothing about SA. And then your next is even crazier. Like why would A mean B FORSURE? Like couldn't this strike mean they are sick of killing fighters and civilians, when they just create more and instead want to kill some of the decision makers. Show them they are safe no where? Or a whole bunch of other possibilities? Just like how SA and Qatar have been mad about stuff before? And Egypt? This is just how the game is played. They are puppet leaders who play the part of genuinely caring to make sure they don't get Arab Spring'd. None of what they say is real. Their actions completely and totally disprove the public narrative. So because they might be lying and have lied in the past, they are definitely lying now? And you know exactly how? And on top of that you skipped my next paragraph. Your head cannon doesn't even follow it's own logic. Are you just being controversial for the shit of it? I think we have enough information regarding both SA and Qatar to assess their messaging, their actions, and then compare each to previous events to ascertain "what's really going on". Or at least something close to what's really going on. If Qatar really had no idea, we would be seeing significantly greater fallout from this. This would be a colossal diplomatic disaster. We have seen basically nothing of substance. Are you saying you view SA/Qatar/Egypt governments as genuine, truthful representation of each of their populations? We don't need to be tankies to admit they are super duper puppet governments who play the part they need to play. The reason I didn't address your second paragraph was that it doesn't really apply if we assume my narrative. If Qatar is authorizing Hamas no longer having actual high-level leaders, this show of force does not actually apply to anyone. That's it. All the Qatar guys who have been immune this whole time are gone. Who would Hamas send to these negotiations? How would they do anything? You could argue it is possible this is intended to scare the living shit out of the Hamas folks on the ground/front lines. But the reason that would work is it would be a very clear sign the dudes in Gaza are 100% boned if they don't surrender.
I think this doesn't take into account that Hamas is far too extreme to care about some of their own members being killed. They'll never stop fighting. If Hamas as a group is to be destroyed, they'll have to be literally destroyed. They won't surrender. They'll go the Hitler route. He never surrendered until his final moments when he was on death's doorstep and couldn't deny reality anymore. Hamas will do the same.
An end to the war is not going to happen. Either Hamas get what they want, i.e. Israel withdraws. Or every single Hamas member gets killed. There's nothing in between. These people are at least as dedicated to their cause as the Nazis were, possibly a lot more.
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All you do, mate, is regurgitate propaganda and repeat talking points ad nauseam.
That is fine, knock yourself out, there ought to be at least one pure propagandist around here anyway.
On a personal level I already told you what I think of people like you, and your latest post just goes further tho show that assessment was spot on, whenever someone calls people who want to stop human suffering and famine as "appeals to emotion" it really shows who that person is.
It seems like Israel notified US and Qatar at the moment where they couldn't react in any way other then shooting down IDF assets, it's another one in a long series of line stepping moves by them, I don't hold much hope that it will have consequences on them because of other things I mentioned.
EU is turning the heat at least a bit, Ursula just did a speech in the EU parliament saying:
Bilateral payment to Israel will be paused as European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen seeks to blast through gridlock responding to the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.
So at least EU is trying to turn up heat on these warmongering maniacs.
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On September 10 2025 17:12 Jankisa wrote:All you do, mate, is regurgitate propaganda and repeat talking points ad nauseam. That is fine, knock yourself out, there ought to be at least one pure propagandist around here anyway. On a personal level I already told you what I think of people like you, and your latest post just goes further tho show that assessment was spot on, whenever someone calls people who want to stop human suffering and famine as "appeals to emotion" it really shows who that person is. It seems like Israel notified US and Qatar at the moment where they couldn't react in any way other then shooting down IDF assets, it's another one in a long series of line stepping moves by them, I don't hold much hope that it will have consequences on them because of other things I mentioned. EU is turning the heat at least a bit, Ursula just did a speech in the EU parliament saying: Show nested quote +Bilateral payment to Israel will be paused as European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen seeks to blast through gridlock responding to the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. So at least EU is trying to turn up heat on these warmongering maniacs.
If you think that you are stopping human suffering by posting in an online-forum you are more self-righteous and stuck up than I previously thought.
And if you further think that my propaganda instead of yours is using lies or is mischaracterizing data, simply point it out. But these endless appeals to emotion - or the other constant logical fallacies you are using (as I did not call out appeals to emotion because you are addressing human suffering, but because your argumentation sucks) - won't sway me in the slightest as I am able to differentiate human suffering from wrong factual statements.
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On September 10 2025 15:16 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2025 16:23 Magic Powers wrote:I'll respond to this part first: I challenge this assessment as,
- this long-lasting ceasefire did not occur and the situation, as a matter of fact, even worsened at times
- a ceasefire was only established in January 2025, meaning over a year has passed between the call for it and the enactment
- there was no immediate ceasefire and the situation, especially in northern Gaza worsened dramatically and we don't even have 500 confirmed starvation deaths (and yes, I will say it again: even one would be too many, so all of you reading this: safe your cynicism... it is a fucking war and bad things happen). The food situation worsened over time, not instantly. It's explained that there are valid reasons for why the famine wasn't called sooner, such as existing food supply (prior to the conflict I assume?). However, what people need to understand is that confirmed casualties are not true casualties, and likewise confirmed deaths from starvation are also not true deaths from starvation. The true numbers are, without a doubt, much higher. Under-reporting is expected, which is why likewise nobody knows how many people have really died as a consequence of the war. The estimates range from around 60-70k all the way up to 200k. Some people would argue it could be even more than that. Deaths from starvation must be treated similarly. When a few hundred are being reported, we can safely assume it's closer to a thousand or in an extreme case could be even several thousand. And these estimates are real and credible, they're not made up or anything. They're based on valid research. And it's not just one research group coming up with such estimates, it's a whole host of them. They always put the real estimates much higher than the reported cases. This is not bias, this is professional experience. So why wasn't famine called in 2024? Nobody really knows, and it doesn't really matter. What we do know is that Gaza was on the brink of famine for a very long time. This is not an exaggeration at all. Very few experts said that so many thousands of people in Gaza would immediately start dying as a consequence, instead they described it as a serious risk. Most importantly, their goal wasn't to let people die and then prove that they were right, their goal was to save people and then hopefully never get proven right. And this is what I need you to understand. When famine doesn't get declared, that's a win for us. We are celebrating when famine doesn't happen. We're not eagerly sitting here hoping for a famine just so we can say "see, we were right". And that is also why I'm now so pissed that famine has finally been declared. This is the nightmare scenario that people have warned us of for so many months. It's real now, which means the risk was real, it means the predictions were right. They just warned us long ahead of the disaster rather than shortly before it would happen - because the goal was to prevent it, not just to warn of it. I put this next part in the back of my comment, because I want my response to prioritize the discussion and not get into the bickering aspect right away: You've likewise been "insanely wrong" about things before. Don't think to yourself you're somehow superior to other people. Everyone blunders, including you. Everyone has blind spots. People who believe that they are incapable of making a blunder while reading articles or while discussing things are full of shit. Everyone has the capacity for it. Literally everyone. The 150 IQ person you might be friends with? Yes, even that one. Even they blunder. Don't think too highly of yourself, or too lowly of others. Take this as a general life advice. It will help you view other people and yourself with greater fairness and less hostility. We're all humans, nobody is an angel. It's not about whether we blunder. It's about our capacity to admit to blundering and moving on and sticking to the core of the argument rather than derailing it. I almost never see people in this forum admit literally anything ever. There are about two other people besides myself in both this thread and the US thread who I've seen admit fault before. It can't be a lot more than that. Somehow people appear to be incapable of admitting fault. It's absurd that those are also the exact same people who like to accuse me and others of being incapable of admitting fault, while I have in fact admitted fault plenty of times. This needs to change. People need more self-awareness. This accusatory and antagonistic behavior coupled with a complete lack of self-awareness has gotten out of control. There are protocols in place. Thresholds to be met. "Nobody really knows" doesn't cut it. If humanitarian organizations make estimations about famines they usually are quite accurate. Here they were wrong in the hundreds of thousands. Last time, when there were disagreements about numbers, I told you guys to sit back and watch, as we can't know yet if the Gazan MoH numbers or the estimations of humanitarian organizations are reliable, based on the observations of impossible data sets. Turns out, they were silently corrected downwards in the thousands. I don't sense much understanding of the point I am raising, so I will do the same as last time, as I won't discuss based on estimations: We need more data before making a judgement, in my opinion. And just to be clear, so there are not further misunderstandings or misinterpretations: The annual Gazan natural death toll varied from 6.5 to 9k. Let's go with the lower number... this would mean 6.5k Gazans would have died anyway per year. Having nearly reached a horrible 2-year-anniversary, you have to subtract 13k dead from the total death count. As mostly elderly or super young die naturally, this also marks a shift to better the civilian-to-soldier-casualty rate, where once again it can be observed, that Israel is faring similar to comparable conflicts. I simply hope that the humanitarian situation in Gaza city and the rest of the strip will be resolved rather sooner than later. I make an effort to double- or triple-check my statements because I know my perspective is unpopular. I do so to avoid slip-ups against the supposedly morally correct side, so I am truly curious: Where have I been "insanely wrong" on factual things like numbers or dates? Show nested quote +On September 09 2025 21:44 Jankisa wrote:On September 09 2025 14:42 PremoBeats wrote:
Ultra-strawman.
Because I never defended starvation as a tactic. I called it a warcrime, called out Israel for it several times and wrote that Israel itself and singular officials and soldiers complicit in this warcrime and others should be held accountable. This has nothing to do with being heartless, but with misinterpretations.
This isn't even about any kind of defense for Israel but about preposterously wrong statements regarding this conflict being called out for what they are.
Seriously, this is exactly what I called out in my rant on the previous page. This is why no one critical of what is spread here is posting regularly... you guys simply are not able to distinguish between facts and emotion and make emotional appeals instead of addressing what is actually written. If someone comes to this thread to do 2 things: 1. Claim Israel is not committing genocide 2. Claim that there is no famine in Gaza And somewhere inside multiple page posts puts a few "if this was happening it's to be condemned" that doesn't make what they are doing any less of a shitty thing to do. You, to me, are one of the "well, the number of dead Jews in the Holocaust is not 6 million" guys who will also throw in "of course I don't agree that people should be exterminated", but you still spend most of your time leaving long posts about how Holocaust was exaggerated. You can claim until you are blue in the face that you aren't a Holocaust denier, but you are doing all the things that a Holocaust denier does, so, you are one. In this thread, you are spending, comparatively, almost no time (and I don't have the patience of MP to read everything what you write because, again, I don't care about nitpicking and definitions when it comes to human suffering) empathizing with the victims and putting blame on the aggressors, instead of you are spending most of your time trying to minimize the blame of Israel. Also, this is a thread where anyone can post whatever they want, as long as it's on topic, my comments or other peoples posts about actual things that are ongoing and escalating are just as valid as your genocide and famine denial, and as long as people engage with either or those they are valid things to post, hell, even if it's shouting into the void it's still valid. I honestly prefer that guys like KwarK or Billiboy who also reflexively defend Israel don't post here anymore because it makes me lose faith in humanity that people, even smart and otherwise politically aligned people can be so blindsided and defend things that are, to me, indefensible. My position is indefensible to you, yet I haven't seen you meaningfully engage with any of my posts. Appeals to emotion, outrage and slanders... not much more. And I completely accept that there are other opinions.. you all are free to over and over post news that paint Israel in a bad light. But once in a while, some factual corrections are necessary and that is something you don't seem to be able to handle. After all, this is a thread about the whole situation not a "Israel=bad"-thread. I explained how the genocide label has been reframed to be put on Israel and that it should retain its legal definition. Or how I don't see a genocide unfold, when the civilian-to-soldier casualty rates are still below comparable conflicts, while much more difficult circumstances like human shield tactics and a higher rate of children, journalists and humanitarian workers are present and on top not one military memo of genocide has surfaced. I further never denied that famine like conditions are prevalent in Gaza, but simply pointed out that it is odd how the calculations have been established (taking specific time frames to raise the average), which hasn't been done in other conflicts. You can either engage with these takes or don't. I don't mind either way, but I won't stop posting my opinion or hard facts, simply because you can't handle them or are emotionally outraged, no matter how often you call me names or a Holocaust denier (which is absolutely ridiculous, hypocritical and utterly inappropriate). And just to be clear: The aggressor was Hamas. Their unneeded attack to achieve their goal of exterminating Israel and the Jews, which is founded in religious fundamentalism, is the cause of this war. So far, they have not surrendered and I ask these questions in all seriousness: Should Israel simply leave the hostages and the bodies in their hands? Should they have simply accepted the self declared genocidal massacre two years ago? People in Gaza drove cars, lived in apartment blocks, studied abroad - even in the States and Europe. Life expectancy was close to the global average. Not everything was perfect - especially with the blockade around - but it could have been even better if Hamas hadn't used millions of funds and aid to build a tunnel and terror network. But they completely fucked their population on October 7th. So no, I won't let it fly to paint Israel as the aggressor in this ongoing conflict, simply because they have the means to strike back asymmetrically. All of this wouldn't have happened without October 7th. Show nested quote +On September 10 2025 06:55 Mohdoo wrote:
I feel like this is at minimum time number 900 you have framed my posts as defending Israel when I am very clearly describing Israel as having evil intentions and evil goals. I repeatedly point out how Palestinians do a profoundly bad job at mitigating these goals with jihad nonsense, but it doesn't change the fact that Netanyahu is evil.
Nebuchad mischaracterizing other users? Now that's a new one. Show nested quote +On September 10 2025 06:55 Mohdoo wrote:
I've repeatedly described Palestinians as the most tragedy-stricken people on the planet.
Humanitarily I'd chip in Kongo... decades of conflict with millions dead, mass displacement (over 7 million), ongoing massacres... extreme poverty, very little international visibility. The Rohingya also might take a share, but Gaza, Kongo and the Rohingya alongside Sudan probably can count as the 4 horsemen.
As to the first part of your comment: I will not wait. I see a famine, I call it a famine. I will blame Israel for this, and I will not wait for anything. They've fucked up too many times, and they keep fucking up. They cannot be given any additional rope - unless it is for the purpose of them hanging themselves. Israel's administration is a monster. It needs to stop, it needs to go away, and that's all there's to it.
To your question:
If you're asking me to prove that you, as a human, have committed blunders in discourse before (just like everyone else does, because blundering is a normal human behavior that is expected and should not disqualify a person from discourse altogether).
It didn't take me long to find one of your blunders, where you stated (and then refused to admit to it) that the West Bank belonged to Israel - by stating that they took back what belonged to them. Whether you did this by accident or because you believed it's true, either way this was a clear blunder on your part and then you refused to acknowledge it.
https://tl.net/forum/general/573090-things-arent-peaceful-in-palestine?page=305#6083
I can certainly find more blunders if I look deeper into your posting history. But it would take me another roughly thirty minutes digging up another blunder. I remember clearly that you've blundered before, which is expected because you're simply human like we all are, and therefore you will blunder and have blundered plenty of times before. You can acknowledge human nature as what it is. Nobody's above it. Not you, not me, not anybody else.
Point is, you're not above anybody here. You're just as fallible as I am. When somebody makes a mistake and even acknowledges it, then don't rub it in their face. That is unacceptable behavior, especially seeing that you haven't admitted to your own blunders before. Just return to the core of the argument and don't act high and mighty.
I'm not interested in showing you up. I'm doing this to demonstrate why your behavior towards me is unacceptable. You're acting as if I'm unqualified for discourse because I misinterpreted text. This is absurd behavior, especially coming from, well, another human, who has also blundered before, and has not acknowledged said blunder.
Do not be the pot calling the kettle black. All I'm asking for is a return to the argument and normal - somewhat respectable - discourse. Doesn't have to be the greatest discourse, just good enough.
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On September 10 2025 17:20 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2025 17:12 Jankisa wrote:All you do, mate, is regurgitate propaganda and repeat talking points ad nauseam. That is fine, knock yourself out, there ought to be at least one pure propagandist around here anyway. On a personal level I already told you what I think of people like you, and your latest post just goes further tho show that assessment was spot on, whenever someone calls people who want to stop human suffering and famine as "appeals to emotion" it really shows who that person is. It seems like Israel notified US and Qatar at the moment where they couldn't react in any way other then shooting down IDF assets, it's another one in a long series of line stepping moves by them, I don't hold much hope that it will have consequences on them because of other things I mentioned. EU is turning the heat at least a bit, Ursula just did a speech in the EU parliament saying: Bilateral payment to Israel will be paused as European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen seeks to blast through gridlock responding to the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. So at least EU is trying to turn up heat on these warmongering maniacs. If you think that you are stopping human suffering by posting in an online-forum you are more self-righteous and stuck up than I previously thought. And if you further think that my propaganda instead of yours is using lies or is mischaracterizing data, simply point it out. But these endless appeals to emotion - or the other constant logical fallacies you are using (as I did not call out appeals to emotion because you are addressing human suffering, but because your argumentation sucks) - won't sway me in the slightest as I am able to differentiate human suffering from wrong factual statements.
I hate when people do this: "you don't change anything with your online discussions."
Yes, we do change things. We are the people who form the voting block. We vote for our leaders. If our leaders don't comply with our demand, they will be voted out. We may not have as much power as our leaders do, but we have power. Not as individuals, but as a collective. It is all the more important that we firmly stand in opposition to everyone voting against our interests. For that purpose it is absolutely necessary to communicate our views and ideas online. Because online communication is now at least as big, but probably bigger than outdoors. We're making a big impact, just not as big as someone in parliament. We stand behind them.
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On September 10 2025 17:34 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2025 15:16 PremoBeats wrote:On September 09 2025 16:23 Magic Powers wrote:I'll respond to this part first: I challenge this assessment as,
- this long-lasting ceasefire did not occur and the situation, as a matter of fact, even worsened at times
- a ceasefire was only established in January 2025, meaning over a year has passed between the call for it and the enactment
- there was no immediate ceasefire and the situation, especially in northern Gaza worsened dramatically and we don't even have 500 confirmed starvation deaths (and yes, I will say it again: even one would be too many, so all of you reading this: safe your cynicism... it is a fucking war and bad things happen). The food situation worsened over time, not instantly. It's explained that there are valid reasons for why the famine wasn't called sooner, such as existing food supply (prior to the conflict I assume?). However, what people need to understand is that confirmed casualties are not true casualties, and likewise confirmed deaths from starvation are also not true deaths from starvation. The true numbers are, without a doubt, much higher. Under-reporting is expected, which is why likewise nobody knows how many people have really died as a consequence of the war. The estimates range from around 60-70k all the way up to 200k. Some people would argue it could be even more than that. Deaths from starvation must be treated similarly. When a few hundred are being reported, we can safely assume it's closer to a thousand or in an extreme case could be even several thousand. And these estimates are real and credible, they're not made up or anything. They're based on valid research. And it's not just one research group coming up with such estimates, it's a whole host of them. They always put the real estimates much higher than the reported cases. This is not bias, this is professional experience. So why wasn't famine called in 2024? Nobody really knows, and it doesn't really matter. What we do know is that Gaza was on the brink of famine for a very long time. This is not an exaggeration at all. Very few experts said that so many thousands of people in Gaza would immediately start dying as a consequence, instead they described it as a serious risk. Most importantly, their goal wasn't to let people die and then prove that they were right, their goal was to save people and then hopefully never get proven right. And this is what I need you to understand. When famine doesn't get declared, that's a win for us. We are celebrating when famine doesn't happen. We're not eagerly sitting here hoping for a famine just so we can say "see, we were right". And that is also why I'm now so pissed that famine has finally been declared. This is the nightmare scenario that people have warned us of for so many months. It's real now, which means the risk was real, it means the predictions were right. They just warned us long ahead of the disaster rather than shortly before it would happen - because the goal was to prevent it, not just to warn of it. I put this next part in the back of my comment, because I want my response to prioritize the discussion and not get into the bickering aspect right away: You've likewise been "insanely wrong" about things before. Don't think to yourself you're somehow superior to other people. Everyone blunders, including you. Everyone has blind spots. People who believe that they are incapable of making a blunder while reading articles or while discussing things are full of shit. Everyone has the capacity for it. Literally everyone. The 150 IQ person you might be friends with? Yes, even that one. Even they blunder. Don't think too highly of yourself, or too lowly of others. Take this as a general life advice. It will help you view other people and yourself with greater fairness and less hostility. We're all humans, nobody is an angel. It's not about whether we blunder. It's about our capacity to admit to blundering and moving on and sticking to the core of the argument rather than derailing it. I almost never see people in this forum admit literally anything ever. There are about two other people besides myself in both this thread and the US thread who I've seen admit fault before. It can't be a lot more than that. Somehow people appear to be incapable of admitting fault. It's absurd that those are also the exact same people who like to accuse me and others of being incapable of admitting fault, while I have in fact admitted fault plenty of times. This needs to change. People need more self-awareness. This accusatory and antagonistic behavior coupled with a complete lack of self-awareness has gotten out of control. There are protocols in place. Thresholds to be met. "Nobody really knows" doesn't cut it. If humanitarian organizations make estimations about famines they usually are quite accurate. Here they were wrong in the hundreds of thousands. Last time, when there were disagreements about numbers, I told you guys to sit back and watch, as we can't know yet if the Gazan MoH numbers or the estimations of humanitarian organizations are reliable, based on the observations of impossible data sets. Turns out, they were silently corrected downwards in the thousands. I don't sense much understanding of the point I am raising, so I will do the same as last time, as I won't discuss based on estimations: We need more data before making a judgement, in my opinion. And just to be clear, so there are not further misunderstandings or misinterpretations: The annual Gazan natural death toll varied from 6.5 to 9k. Let's go with the lower number... this would mean 6.5k Gazans would have died anyway per year. Having nearly reached a horrible 2-year-anniversary, you have to subtract 13k dead from the total death count. As mostly elderly or super young die naturally, this also marks a shift to better the civilian-to-soldier-casualty rate, where once again it can be observed, that Israel is faring similar to comparable conflicts. I simply hope that the humanitarian situation in Gaza city and the rest of the strip will be resolved rather sooner than later. I make an effort to double- or triple-check my statements because I know my perspective is unpopular. I do so to avoid slip-ups against the supposedly morally correct side, so I am truly curious: Where have I been "insanely wrong" on factual things like numbers or dates? On September 09 2025 21:44 Jankisa wrote:On September 09 2025 14:42 PremoBeats wrote:
Ultra-strawman.
Because I never defended starvation as a tactic. I called it a warcrime, called out Israel for it several times and wrote that Israel itself and singular officials and soldiers complicit in this warcrime and others should be held accountable. This has nothing to do with being heartless, but with misinterpretations.
This isn't even about any kind of defense for Israel but about preposterously wrong statements regarding this conflict being called out for what they are.
Seriously, this is exactly what I called out in my rant on the previous page. This is why no one critical of what is spread here is posting regularly... you guys simply are not able to distinguish between facts and emotion and make emotional appeals instead of addressing what is actually written. If someone comes to this thread to do 2 things: 1. Claim Israel is not committing genocide 2. Claim that there is no famine in Gaza And somewhere inside multiple page posts puts a few "if this was happening it's to be condemned" that doesn't make what they are doing any less of a shitty thing to do. You, to me, are one of the "well, the number of dead Jews in the Holocaust is not 6 million" guys who will also throw in "of course I don't agree that people should be exterminated", but you still spend most of your time leaving long posts about how Holocaust was exaggerated. You can claim until you are blue in the face that you aren't a Holocaust denier, but you are doing all the things that a Holocaust denier does, so, you are one. In this thread, you are spending, comparatively, almost no time (and I don't have the patience of MP to read everything what you write because, again, I don't care about nitpicking and definitions when it comes to human suffering) empathizing with the victims and putting blame on the aggressors, instead of you are spending most of your time trying to minimize the blame of Israel. Also, this is a thread where anyone can post whatever they want, as long as it's on topic, my comments or other peoples posts about actual things that are ongoing and escalating are just as valid as your genocide and famine denial, and as long as people engage with either or those they are valid things to post, hell, even if it's shouting into the void it's still valid. I honestly prefer that guys like KwarK or Billiboy who also reflexively defend Israel don't post here anymore because it makes me lose faith in humanity that people, even smart and otherwise politically aligned people can be so blindsided and defend things that are, to me, indefensible. My position is indefensible to you, yet I haven't seen you meaningfully engage with any of my posts. Appeals to emotion, outrage and slanders... not much more. And I completely accept that there are other opinions.. you all are free to over and over post news that paint Israel in a bad light. But once in a while, some factual corrections are necessary and that is something you don't seem to be able to handle. After all, this is a thread about the whole situation not a "Israel=bad"-thread. I explained how the genocide label has been reframed to be put on Israel and that it should retain its legal definition. Or how I don't see a genocide unfold, when the civilian-to-soldier casualty rates are still below comparable conflicts, while much more difficult circumstances like human shield tactics and a higher rate of children, journalists and humanitarian workers are present and on top not one military memo of genocide has surfaced. I further never denied that famine like conditions are prevalent in Gaza, but simply pointed out that it is odd how the calculations have been established (taking specific time frames to raise the average), which hasn't been done in other conflicts. You can either engage with these takes or don't. I don't mind either way, but I won't stop posting my opinion or hard facts, simply because you can't handle them or are emotionally outraged, no matter how often you call me names or a Holocaust denier (which is absolutely ridiculous, hypocritical and utterly inappropriate). And just to be clear: The aggressor was Hamas. Their unneeded attack to achieve their goal of exterminating Israel and the Jews, which is founded in religious fundamentalism, is the cause of this war. So far, they have not surrendered and I ask these questions in all seriousness: Should Israel simply leave the hostages and the bodies in their hands? Should they have simply accepted the self declared genocidal massacre two years ago? People in Gaza drove cars, lived in apartment blocks, studied abroad - even in the States and Europe. Life expectancy was close to the global average. Not everything was perfect - especially with the blockade around - but it could have been even better if Hamas hadn't used millions of funds and aid to build a tunnel and terror network. But they completely fucked their population on October 7th. So no, I won't let it fly to paint Israel as the aggressor in this ongoing conflict, simply because they have the means to strike back asymmetrically. All of this wouldn't have happened without October 7th. On September 10 2025 06:55 Mohdoo wrote:
I feel like this is at minimum time number 900 you have framed my posts as defending Israel when I am very clearly describing Israel as having evil intentions and evil goals. I repeatedly point out how Palestinians do a profoundly bad job at mitigating these goals with jihad nonsense, but it doesn't change the fact that Netanyahu is evil.
Nebuchad mischaracterizing other users? Now that's a new one. On September 10 2025 06:55 Mohdoo wrote:
I've repeatedly described Palestinians as the most tragedy-stricken people on the planet.
Humanitarily I'd chip in Kongo... decades of conflict with millions dead, mass displacement (over 7 million), ongoing massacres... extreme poverty, very little international visibility. The Rohingya also might take a share, but Gaza, Kongo and the Rohingya alongside Sudan probably can count as the 4 horsemen. As to the first part of your comment: I will not wait. I see a famine, I call it a famine. I will blame Israel for this, and I will not wait for anything. They've fucked up too many times, and they keep fucking up. They cannot be given any additional rope - unless it is for the purpose of them hanging themselves. Israel's administration is a monster. It needs to stop, it needs to go away, and that's all there's to it. To your question: If you're asking me to prove that you, as a human, have committed blunders in discourse before (just like everyone else does, because blundering is a normal human behavior that is expected and should not disqualify a person from discourse altogether). It didn't take me long to find one of your blunders, where you stated (and then refused to admit to it) that the West Bank belonged to Israel - by stating that they took back what belonged to them. Whether you did this by accident or because you believed it's true, either way this was a clear blunder on your part and then you refused to acknowledge it. https://tl.net/forum/general/573090-things-arent-peaceful-in-palestine?page=305#6083I can certainly find more blunders if I look deeper into your posting history. But it would take me another roughly thirty minutes digging up another blunder. I remember clearly that you've blundered before, which is expected because you're simply human like we all are, and therefore you will blunder and have blundered plenty of times before. You can acknowledge human nature as what it is. Nobody's above it. Not you, not me, not anybody else. Point is, you're not above anybody here. You're just as fallible as I am. When somebody makes a mistake and even acknowledges it, then don't rub it in their face. That is unacceptable behavior, especially seeing that you haven't admitted to your own blunders before. Just return to the core of the argument and don't act high and mighty. I'm not interested in showing you up. I'm doing this to demonstrate why your behavior towards me is unacceptable. You're acting as if I'm unqualified for discourse because I misinterpreted text. This is absurd behavior, especially coming from, well, another human, who has also blundered before, and has not acknowledged said blunder. Do not be the pot calling the kettle black. All I'm asking for is a return to the argument and normal - somewhat respectable - discourse. Doesn't have to be the greatest discourse, just good enough.
I am not sayin that I don't blunder as in misreading people comments, making typos, or at times confusing a year or two. My point is that you have posted something that should have rang alarm bells all over as it didn't make any sense.
So yes, I make blunders. Obviously. My point about yours was something different.
The West Bank quote is connected to uti possidetis juris. That is a contested issue legally, which I pointed out, lol. That was not a blunder. I argued on the basis of that principle's perspective (which can be read up on in my very reply back then).
And for all I care: Believe, that you are doing something great debating here. Perhaps some opinions will be swayed, no idea. I simply dislike the self-righteous attitude that is displayed, the same way Jankisa dislikes my disagreement and inability to act in accordance with unconditional condemnation towards Israel even against facts.
EDIT: Interesting to read up on these things... as even back then you guys only replied partially and misrepresented what was said 
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On September 10 2025 17:50 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2025 17:34 Magic Powers wrote:On September 10 2025 15:16 PremoBeats wrote:On September 09 2025 16:23 Magic Powers wrote:I'll respond to this part first: I challenge this assessment as,
- this long-lasting ceasefire did not occur and the situation, as a matter of fact, even worsened at times
- a ceasefire was only established in January 2025, meaning over a year has passed between the call for it and the enactment
- there was no immediate ceasefire and the situation, especially in northern Gaza worsened dramatically and we don't even have 500 confirmed starvation deaths (and yes, I will say it again: even one would be too many, so all of you reading this: safe your cynicism... it is a fucking war and bad things happen). The food situation worsened over time, not instantly. It's explained that there are valid reasons for why the famine wasn't called sooner, such as existing food supply (prior to the conflict I assume?). However, what people need to understand is that confirmed casualties are not true casualties, and likewise confirmed deaths from starvation are also not true deaths from starvation. The true numbers are, without a doubt, much higher. Under-reporting is expected, which is why likewise nobody knows how many people have really died as a consequence of the war. The estimates range from around 60-70k all the way up to 200k. Some people would argue it could be even more than that. Deaths from starvation must be treated similarly. When a few hundred are being reported, we can safely assume it's closer to a thousand or in an extreme case could be even several thousand. And these estimates are real and credible, they're not made up or anything. They're based on valid research. And it's not just one research group coming up with such estimates, it's a whole host of them. They always put the real estimates much higher than the reported cases. This is not bias, this is professional experience. So why wasn't famine called in 2024? Nobody really knows, and it doesn't really matter. What we do know is that Gaza was on the brink of famine for a very long time. This is not an exaggeration at all. Very few experts said that so many thousands of people in Gaza would immediately start dying as a consequence, instead they described it as a serious risk. Most importantly, their goal wasn't to let people die and then prove that they were right, their goal was to save people and then hopefully never get proven right. And this is what I need you to understand. When famine doesn't get declared, that's a win for us. We are celebrating when famine doesn't happen. We're not eagerly sitting here hoping for a famine just so we can say "see, we were right". And that is also why I'm now so pissed that famine has finally been declared. This is the nightmare scenario that people have warned us of for so many months. It's real now, which means the risk was real, it means the predictions were right. They just warned us long ahead of the disaster rather than shortly before it would happen - because the goal was to prevent it, not just to warn of it. I put this next part in the back of my comment, because I want my response to prioritize the discussion and not get into the bickering aspect right away: You've likewise been "insanely wrong" about things before. Don't think to yourself you're somehow superior to other people. Everyone blunders, including you. Everyone has blind spots. People who believe that they are incapable of making a blunder while reading articles or while discussing things are full of shit. Everyone has the capacity for it. Literally everyone. The 150 IQ person you might be friends with? Yes, even that one. Even they blunder. Don't think too highly of yourself, or too lowly of others. Take this as a general life advice. It will help you view other people and yourself with greater fairness and less hostility. We're all humans, nobody is an angel. It's not about whether we blunder. It's about our capacity to admit to blundering and moving on and sticking to the core of the argument rather than derailing it. I almost never see people in this forum admit literally anything ever. There are about two other people besides myself in both this thread and the US thread who I've seen admit fault before. It can't be a lot more than that. Somehow people appear to be incapable of admitting fault. It's absurd that those are also the exact same people who like to accuse me and others of being incapable of admitting fault, while I have in fact admitted fault plenty of times. This needs to change. People need more self-awareness. This accusatory and antagonistic behavior coupled with a complete lack of self-awareness has gotten out of control. There are protocols in place. Thresholds to be met. "Nobody really knows" doesn't cut it. If humanitarian organizations make estimations about famines they usually are quite accurate. Here they were wrong in the hundreds of thousands. Last time, when there were disagreements about numbers, I told you guys to sit back and watch, as we can't know yet if the Gazan MoH numbers or the estimations of humanitarian organizations are reliable, based on the observations of impossible data sets. Turns out, they were silently corrected downwards in the thousands. I don't sense much understanding of the point I am raising, so I will do the same as last time, as I won't discuss based on estimations: We need more data before making a judgement, in my opinion. And just to be clear, so there are not further misunderstandings or misinterpretations: The annual Gazan natural death toll varied from 6.5 to 9k. Let's go with the lower number... this would mean 6.5k Gazans would have died anyway per year. Having nearly reached a horrible 2-year-anniversary, you have to subtract 13k dead from the total death count. As mostly elderly or super young die naturally, this also marks a shift to better the civilian-to-soldier-casualty rate, where once again it can be observed, that Israel is faring similar to comparable conflicts. I simply hope that the humanitarian situation in Gaza city and the rest of the strip will be resolved rather sooner than later. I make an effort to double- or triple-check my statements because I know my perspective is unpopular. I do so to avoid slip-ups against the supposedly morally correct side, so I am truly curious: Where have I been "insanely wrong" on factual things like numbers or dates? On September 09 2025 21:44 Jankisa wrote:On September 09 2025 14:42 PremoBeats wrote:
Ultra-strawman.
Because I never defended starvation as a tactic. I called it a warcrime, called out Israel for it several times and wrote that Israel itself and singular officials and soldiers complicit in this warcrime and others should be held accountable. This has nothing to do with being heartless, but with misinterpretations.
This isn't even about any kind of defense for Israel but about preposterously wrong statements regarding this conflict being called out for what they are.
Seriously, this is exactly what I called out in my rant on the previous page. This is why no one critical of what is spread here is posting regularly... you guys simply are not able to distinguish between facts and emotion and make emotional appeals instead of addressing what is actually written. If someone comes to this thread to do 2 things: 1. Claim Israel is not committing genocide 2. Claim that there is no famine in Gaza And somewhere inside multiple page posts puts a few "if this was happening it's to be condemned" that doesn't make what they are doing any less of a shitty thing to do. You, to me, are one of the "well, the number of dead Jews in the Holocaust is not 6 million" guys who will also throw in "of course I don't agree that people should be exterminated", but you still spend most of your time leaving long posts about how Holocaust was exaggerated. You can claim until you are blue in the face that you aren't a Holocaust denier, but you are doing all the things that a Holocaust denier does, so, you are one. In this thread, you are spending, comparatively, almost no time (and I don't have the patience of MP to read everything what you write because, again, I don't care about nitpicking and definitions when it comes to human suffering) empathizing with the victims and putting blame on the aggressors, instead of you are spending most of your time trying to minimize the blame of Israel. Also, this is a thread where anyone can post whatever they want, as long as it's on topic, my comments or other peoples posts about actual things that are ongoing and escalating are just as valid as your genocide and famine denial, and as long as people engage with either or those they are valid things to post, hell, even if it's shouting into the void it's still valid. I honestly prefer that guys like KwarK or Billiboy who also reflexively defend Israel don't post here anymore because it makes me lose faith in humanity that people, even smart and otherwise politically aligned people can be so blindsided and defend things that are, to me, indefensible. My position is indefensible to you, yet I haven't seen you meaningfully engage with any of my posts. Appeals to emotion, outrage and slanders... not much more. And I completely accept that there are other opinions.. you all are free to over and over post news that paint Israel in a bad light. But once in a while, some factual corrections are necessary and that is something you don't seem to be able to handle. After all, this is a thread about the whole situation not a "Israel=bad"-thread. I explained how the genocide label has been reframed to be put on Israel and that it should retain its legal definition. Or how I don't see a genocide unfold, when the civilian-to-soldier casualty rates are still below comparable conflicts, while much more difficult circumstances like human shield tactics and a higher rate of children, journalists and humanitarian workers are present and on top not one military memo of genocide has surfaced. I further never denied that famine like conditions are prevalent in Gaza, but simply pointed out that it is odd how the calculations have been established (taking specific time frames to raise the average), which hasn't been done in other conflicts. You can either engage with these takes or don't. I don't mind either way, but I won't stop posting my opinion or hard facts, simply because you can't handle them or are emotionally outraged, no matter how often you call me names or a Holocaust denier (which is absolutely ridiculous, hypocritical and utterly inappropriate). And just to be clear: The aggressor was Hamas. Their unneeded attack to achieve their goal of exterminating Israel and the Jews, which is founded in religious fundamentalism, is the cause of this war. So far, they have not surrendered and I ask these questions in all seriousness: Should Israel simply leave the hostages and the bodies in their hands? Should they have simply accepted the self declared genocidal massacre two years ago? People in Gaza drove cars, lived in apartment blocks, studied abroad - even in the States and Europe. Life expectancy was close to the global average. Not everything was perfect - especially with the blockade around - but it could have been even better if Hamas hadn't used millions of funds and aid to build a tunnel and terror network. But they completely fucked their population on October 7th. So no, I won't let it fly to paint Israel as the aggressor in this ongoing conflict, simply because they have the means to strike back asymmetrically. All of this wouldn't have happened without October 7th. On September 10 2025 06:55 Mohdoo wrote:
I feel like this is at minimum time number 900 you have framed my posts as defending Israel when I am very clearly describing Israel as having evil intentions and evil goals. I repeatedly point out how Palestinians do a profoundly bad job at mitigating these goals with jihad nonsense, but it doesn't change the fact that Netanyahu is evil.
Nebuchad mischaracterizing other users? Now that's a new one. On September 10 2025 06:55 Mohdoo wrote:
I've repeatedly described Palestinians as the most tragedy-stricken people on the planet.
Humanitarily I'd chip in Kongo... decades of conflict with millions dead, mass displacement (over 7 million), ongoing massacres... extreme poverty, very little international visibility. The Rohingya also might take a share, but Gaza, Kongo and the Rohingya alongside Sudan probably can count as the 4 horsemen. As to the first part of your comment: I will not wait. I see a famine, I call it a famine. I will blame Israel for this, and I will not wait for anything. They've fucked up too many times, and they keep fucking up. They cannot be given any additional rope - unless it is for the purpose of them hanging themselves. Israel's administration is a monster. It needs to stop, it needs to go away, and that's all there's to it. To your question: If you're asking me to prove that you, as a human, have committed blunders in discourse before (just like everyone else does, because blundering is a normal human behavior that is expected and should not disqualify a person from discourse altogether). It didn't take me long to find one of your blunders, where you stated (and then refused to admit to it) that the West Bank belonged to Israel - by stating that they took back what belonged to them. Whether you did this by accident or because you believed it's true, either way this was a clear blunder on your part and then you refused to acknowledge it. https://tl.net/forum/general/573090-things-arent-peaceful-in-palestine?page=305#6083I can certainly find more blunders if I look deeper into your posting history. But it would take me another roughly thirty minutes digging up another blunder. I remember clearly that you've blundered before, which is expected because you're simply human like we all are, and therefore you will blunder and have blundered plenty of times before. You can acknowledge human nature as what it is. Nobody's above it. Not you, not me, not anybody else. Point is, you're not above anybody here. You're just as fallible as I am. When somebody makes a mistake and even acknowledges it, then don't rub it in their face. That is unacceptable behavior, especially seeing that you haven't admitted to your own blunders before. Just return to the core of the argument and don't act high and mighty. I'm not interested in showing you up. I'm doing this to demonstrate why your behavior towards me is unacceptable. You're acting as if I'm unqualified for discourse because I misinterpreted text. This is absurd behavior, especially coming from, well, another human, who has also blundered before, and has not acknowledged said blunder. Do not be the pot calling the kettle black. All I'm asking for is a return to the argument and normal - somewhat respectable - discourse. Doesn't have to be the greatest discourse, just good enough. I am not sayin that I don't blunder as in misreading people comments, making typos, or at times confusing a year or two. My point is that you have posted something that should have rang alarm bells all over as it didn't make any sense. So yes, I make blunders. Obviously. My point about yours was something different. The West Bank quote is connected to uti possidetis juris. That is a contested issue legally, which I pointed out, lol. That was not a blunder. I argued on the basis of that principle's perspective (which can be read up on in my very reply back then). And for all I care: Believe, that you are doing something great debating here. Perhaps some opinions will be swayed, no idea. I simply dislike the self-righteous attitude that is displayed, the same way Jankisa dislikes my disagreement and inability to act in accordance with unconditional condemnation towards Israel even against facts. EDIT: Interesting to read up on these things... as even back then you guys only replied partially and misrepresented what was said
Yeah idk man. Maybe one day you'll realize that your argumentation style is not better than that of any one of us. I hope it's gonna happen. I've made many adjustments to my style, sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. I take feedback from everyone, whether they agree or disagree with me on things.
If someone tells me that one of my mistakes is so incredibly bad that it's unfathomable to even conceive someone making such a mistake, then my simple response is: buddy, I've been posting thousands of comments. What is the statistical likelihood of never blundering after thousands of comments? Yeah, about zero. Especially when a discussion becomes more antagonistic. It's an impossibility to be on point all the time, in fact it's an absurd expectation because then there couldn't be so much disagreement. The reason why people so vehemently disagree with one another is because blunders happen literally all the time. And to exclude yourself from blundering is equally absurd.
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I agree, hence I did not and will not exclude myself from doing so. I simply wanted to point out that I am extra careful in everything I post on this subject as it is extremely delicate.
Cheers.
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On September 10 2025 15:16 PremoBeats wrote:
Nebuchad mischaracterizing other users? Now that's a new one.
Your standard reminder that at one time when Premo here was accusing me of mischaracterizing his posts, I wrote only words that he had written himself in response without using quote marks, and he said that those words that he had written himself were a misrepresentation. The man is simply not honest, he doesn't care about reality he just cares about defending genocide.
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On September 10 2025 20:16 PremoBeats wrote:
I agree, hence I did not and will not exclude myself from doing so. I simply wanted to point out that I am extra careful in everything I post on this subject as it is extremely delicate.
Cheers.
That's part of the problem- there's no reason that criticizing Israel's military conduct should be a delicate issue. The only reason it is is because Israel sympathizers have found a way to conflate such criticism with antisemitism, using tenuous logic like if you criticize Israel, then you think in some way that Jewish people specifically (because you hate them so much) shouldn't have a nation representing them.
This tricks a lot of people like you into thinking they're being decent people by trying to refute criticisms of Israel. One day, you're going to feel ashamed that you did this.
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Why are you making new accounts on a video game forum just to discuss politics there? Please explain your thought process.
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EPT
