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On March 04 2024 13:36 Cerebrate1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2024 12:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 04 2024 12:12 Cerebrate1 wrote:On March 04 2024 05:39 Gorsameth wrote:On March 04 2024 04:20 JimmiC wrote:On March 04 2024 02:49 Gorsameth wrote:On March 04 2024 02:07 JimmiC wrote:
Do people here think the Israelis wanting a list of the names of the hostages that are still alive as unreasonable? If so why? A very reasonable demand, but also understandable why Hamas doesn't want to give that if the news is, as somewhat expected I believe, bad. Because the possibility of the missing hostages being alive is a serious bargaining ship. So why your earlier completely negative comment about Israel when it is your opinion that Israel is asking for something reasonable and Hamas wants to negotiate in bad faith because the truth is bad for them? Israel has made it very clear the only acceptable outcome of this conflict is the complete destruction of Hamas. Its an understandable position from the point of Israel but you can't have a negotiation with an opponent when your position is that no matter what, they have to die. And yes Hamas wants to kill Israel but that isn't their position in these negotiations, they will settle for Israel withdrawing for now. Israel has made it clear they won't settle for anything less. Nothing Hamas can do, outside of shooting themselves in the head, is going to get Israel to stop. Hamas has basically no agency in whether or not a cease fire happens, if we assume that "shoot yourself" is not a reasonable demand to make of someone. I want this war to end, I want the Palestinian people to stop being stuck in the middle of a warzone and getting slaughtered while their houses and infrastructure are bombed and their land is taken from them. And that is 100% on Israel, because they know that if they let up now and allow a cease fire there is going to be tremendous pressure on them to keep that cease fire going and not assault Rafah. Their only concern is kicking out Hamas and they don't care that they have to demolish a city filled to bursting with refugees that they (Israel) themselves drove there when they destroyed the rest of Gaza. To come back to your question. No Israel is not being reasonable. Yes asking for the hostage names is reasonable, but I highly highly doubt that that is all Israel is demanding in exchange for a cease fire because, again, they have made it very clear publicly that they will not stop until Hamas is gone. Destruction of an organization is not the same thing as the death of all of it's members. When Germany and Japan surrendered in WW2, the vast majority of participating members of their regimes were not executed. However their organizations were dismantled and replaced (with organizations that served their people better in the long run.) That's what Israel wants to do. Dismantle and replace Hamas with a government that won't continue to radicalize it's population and constantly start up pointless brutal wars. Hamas has to be more radical than the Nazis and Imperial Japan to not see surrender as an option. The belief that the government of Hamas is what "radicalized the population" and not Israel's illegal occupation of Palestine and Israel's brutal subjugation of Palestinians is part of why so many people rightfully have so little faith in Israel's "day after plan". If Israel wants to dismantle and replace a government with one that won't radicalize Palestinians they can focus on their own. There are so many things wrong with this post that I don't have time to deal with it all. But on one foot, I'll point out that the one place on Earth where Palestinians have the most self governance, the most self determination, the closest thing to a country they have ever had, was Gaza from 2005. Israel unilaterally removed their entire military, forcefully evicted all Israeli settlers, and pulled all the way back to 1967 borders (all the things people claim will solve all the problems). Instead of creating a utopia though, it led to, well, all the violence and destruction that has come out of Gaza since, including some 5 wars, and the most radicalized group of Palestinians around. Yet, in terms of oppression and causes for their violence, Hamas always points to things happening outside of Gaza as justification for their acts. (Presumably because a restriction on weapon imports wasn't a great rallying cry.)
Gaza wasn't a state, it was the equivalent of a bantustan in South Africa, and served a similar purpose. A bantustan isn't autonomy. It's a tried and tested way for an apartheid regime to fake giving control to the regional power, while de facto maintaining full control. Gaza had self-governance, but had no power over its imports or exports, and was thus entirely dependent on Israel for its economy. It also wasn't recognized by the UN, because US keeps vetoing that on behalf of Israel, meaning Gazans couldn't really travel outside Gaza except with Israel's explicit permission, they couldn't effectively determine their own foreign policy.
Unsurprisingly, just as in South Africa, the creation of a bantustan didn't lead to peace.
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There's also no indication of what was so wrong with GH's post specifically, as the post doesn't seem to address his point in any real fashion.
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On March 04 2024 13:36 Cerebrate1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2024 12:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 04 2024 12:12 Cerebrate1 wrote:On March 04 2024 05:39 Gorsameth wrote:On March 04 2024 04:20 JimmiC wrote:On March 04 2024 02:49 Gorsameth wrote:On March 04 2024 02:07 JimmiC wrote:
Do people here think the Israelis wanting a list of the names of the hostages that are still alive as unreasonable? If so why? A very reasonable demand, but also understandable why Hamas doesn't want to give that if the news is, as somewhat expected I believe, bad. Because the possibility of the missing hostages being alive is a serious bargaining ship. So why your earlier completely negative comment about Israel when it is your opinion that Israel is asking for something reasonable and Hamas wants to negotiate in bad faith because the truth is bad for them? Israel has made it very clear the only acceptable outcome of this conflict is the complete destruction of Hamas. Its an understandable position from the point of Israel but you can't have a negotiation with an opponent when your position is that no matter what, they have to die. And yes Hamas wants to kill Israel but that isn't their position in these negotiations, they will settle for Israel withdrawing for now. Israel has made it clear they won't settle for anything less. Nothing Hamas can do, outside of shooting themselves in the head, is going to get Israel to stop. Hamas has basically no agency in whether or not a cease fire happens, if we assume that "shoot yourself" is not a reasonable demand to make of someone. I want this war to end, I want the Palestinian people to stop being stuck in the middle of a warzone and getting slaughtered while their houses and infrastructure are bombed and their land is taken from them. And that is 100% on Israel, because they know that if they let up now and allow a cease fire there is going to be tremendous pressure on them to keep that cease fire going and not assault Rafah. Their only concern is kicking out Hamas and they don't care that they have to demolish a city filled to bursting with refugees that they (Israel) themselves drove there when they destroyed the rest of Gaza. To come back to your question. No Israel is not being reasonable. Yes asking for the hostage names is reasonable, but I highly highly doubt that that is all Israel is demanding in exchange for a cease fire because, again, they have made it very clear publicly that they will not stop until Hamas is gone. Destruction of an organization is not the same thing as the death of all of it's members. When Germany and Japan surrendered in WW2, the vast majority of participating members of their regimes were not executed. However their organizations were dismantled and replaced (with organizations that served their people better in the long run.) That's what Israel wants to do. Dismantle and replace Hamas with a government that won't continue to radicalize it's population and constantly start up pointless brutal wars. Hamas has to be more radical than the Nazis and Imperial Japan to not see surrender as an option. The belief that the government of Hamas is what "radicalized the population" and not Israel's illegal occupation of Palestine and Israel's brutal subjugation of Palestinians is part of why so many people rightfully have so little faith in Israel's "day after plan". If Israel wants to dismantle and replace a government with one that won't radicalize Palestinians they can focus on their own. There are so many things wrong with this post that I don't have time to deal with it all. But on one foot, I'll point out that the one place on Earth where Palestinians have the most self governance, the most self determination, the closest thing to a country they have ever had, was Gaza from 2005. Israel unilaterally removed their entire military, forcefully evicted all Israeli settlers, and pulled all the way back to 1967 borders (all the things people claim will solve all the problems). Instead of creating a utopia though, it led to, well, all the violence and destruction that has come out of Gaza since, including some 5 wars, and the most radicalized group of Palestinians around. Yet, in terms of oppression and causes for their violence, Hamas always points to things happening outside of Gaza as justification for their acts. (Presumably because a restriction on weapon imports wasn't a great rallying cry.)
Lets gooo, another point scored for the pro-Israel propagandist leaving out 90% of all the things that happened in the conflict before and after 2005.
You can't even provide evidence for your absurd one-sided portrayal of history. If you tried, we'd poke a hundred holes into it as we've always done before.
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On March 04 2024 21:54 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2024 17:06 Nebuchad wrote:
There's also no indication of what was so wrong with GH's post specifically, as the post doesn't seem to address his point in any real fashion. I'm not sure how you would. How do you put a percentage on what cause what? Obviously how Israel has treated teh Palestinians has pushed the people towards radicalization. But Iran, Lebanon, Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Egypt and so on have all seen massive radicalization, along with a bunch of countries I have not named. And it would be a real stretch to blame Israel for them. So while a factor I think you would be hard pressed to say the biggest factor, and certainly not globally.
I would not be hard pressed to say it's the biggest factor, it's extremely obvious that it's the biggest factor.
You mentioned a list of middle eastern countries that have seen radicalization but of course in statistical terms that doesn't really make a ton of sense, the proportion of people that are radicalized in those countries is nowhere near comparable to the proportion of people that are part of Hamas in Gaza, so clearly there's something specific happening there that we need to think about (and luckily we don't have to think too long, because we know what it is).
You can also think about the situation mechanically, in terms of a chain reaction, what is more likely to be causing people to be radicalized in an occupied territory, is it the violent occupation, or some elaborate other reason?
I would actually be willing to bet that there are literally more people outside of Palestine that are radicalized by proxy because of what Israel is doing to Palestinians, without having a link to Palestine or the arab world or islam themselves, than there are Palestinians who are radicalized by something else than what Israel is doing to them.
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Northern Ireland26740 Posts
On March 04 2024 20:59 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2024 16:03 Acrofales wrote:On March 04 2024 13:36 Cerebrate1 wrote:On March 04 2024 12:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 04 2024 12:12 Cerebrate1 wrote:On March 04 2024 05:39 Gorsameth wrote:On March 04 2024 04:20 JimmiC wrote:On March 04 2024 02:49 Gorsameth wrote:On March 04 2024 02:07 JimmiC wrote:
Do people here think the Israelis wanting a list of the names of the hostages that are still alive as unreasonable? If so why? A very reasonable demand, but also understandable why Hamas doesn't want to give that if the news is, as somewhat expected I believe, bad. Because the possibility of the missing hostages being alive is a serious bargaining ship. So why your earlier completely negative comment about Israel when it is your opinion that Israel is asking for something reasonable and Hamas wants to negotiate in bad faith because the truth is bad for them? Israel has made it very clear the only acceptable outcome of this conflict is the complete destruction of Hamas. Its an understandable position from the point of Israel but you can't have a negotiation with an opponent when your position is that no matter what, they have to die. And yes Hamas wants to kill Israel but that isn't their position in these negotiations, they will settle for Israel withdrawing for now. Israel has made it clear they won't settle for anything less. Nothing Hamas can do, outside of shooting themselves in the head, is going to get Israel to stop. Hamas has basically no agency in whether or not a cease fire happens, if we assume that "shoot yourself" is not a reasonable demand to make of someone. I want this war to end, I want the Palestinian people to stop being stuck in the middle of a warzone and getting slaughtered while their houses and infrastructure are bombed and their land is taken from them. And that is 100% on Israel, because they know that if they let up now and allow a cease fire there is going to be tremendous pressure on them to keep that cease fire going and not assault Rafah. Their only concern is kicking out Hamas and they don't care that they have to demolish a city filled to bursting with refugees that they (Israel) themselves drove there when they destroyed the rest of Gaza. To come back to your question. No Israel is not being reasonable. Yes asking for the hostage names is reasonable, but I highly highly doubt that that is all Israel is demanding in exchange for a cease fire because, again, they have made it very clear publicly that they will not stop until Hamas is gone. Destruction of an organization is not the same thing as the death of all of it's members. When Germany and Japan surrendered in WW2, the vast majority of participating members of their regimes were not executed. However their organizations were dismantled and replaced (with organizations that served their people better in the long run.) That's what Israel wants to do. Dismantle and replace Hamas with a government that won't continue to radicalize it's population and constantly start up pointless brutal wars. Hamas has to be more radical than the Nazis and Imperial Japan to not see surrender as an option. The belief that the government of Hamas is what "radicalized the population" and not Israel's illegal occupation of Palestine and Israel's brutal subjugation of Palestinians is part of why so many people rightfully have so little faith in Israel's "day after plan". If Israel wants to dismantle and replace a government with one that won't radicalize Palestinians they can focus on their own. There are so many things wrong with this post that I don't have time to deal with it all. But on one foot, I'll point out that the one place on Earth where Palestinians have the most self governance, the most self determination, the closest thing to a country they have ever had, was Gaza from 2005. Israel unilaterally removed their entire military, forcefully evicted all Israeli settlers, and pulled all the way back to 1967 borders (all the things people claim will solve all the problems). Instead of creating a utopia though, it led to, well, all the violence and destruction that has come out of Gaza since, including some 5 wars, and the most radicalized group of Palestinians around. Yet, in terms of oppression and causes for their violence, Hamas always points to things happening outside of Gaza as justification for their acts. (Presumably because a restriction on weapon imports wasn't a great rallying cry.) Gaza wasn't a state, it was the equivalent of a bantustan in South Africa, and served a similar purpose. A bantustan isn't autonomy. It's a tried and tested way for an apartheid regime to fake giving control to the regional power, while de facto maintaining full control. Gaza had self-governance, but had no power over its imports or exports, and was thus entirely dependent on Israel for its economy. It also wasn't recognized by the UN, because US keeps vetoing that on behalf of Israel, meaning Gazans couldn't really travel outside Gaza except with Israel's explicit permission, they couldn't effectively determine their own foreign policy. Unsurprisingly, just as in South Africa, the creation of a bantustan didn't lead to peace. Good thoughtful response and an interesting comparison. I'll be interesting in reading the response. I would say there are some pretty major differences which I'll add for context, but in doing so I'm not ignoring the parallels. The big differences would be that in SA there was no external colonial power supplying weapons, intelligence, hate with the desire to drive every person of Dutch decent to the ocean. There was not the hate filled religious extremism. And there was not the inside Gaza/Westbank vs inside Israel difference. These differences make what worked in SA likely impossible here. The import and exports for example. Most of the time, like in SA, the fear of the people importing weapons of mass destruction are unfounded. Here they are very much real. In most parts of the world the hate that comes with racism, hatred of other religions and so on is fear from lack of understanding and ignorance. In this part of the world that fear is from lived and current experience making it far more difficult and dangerous than every where else.
The other main difference is there wasn’t a long-standing and meaningful ostracisation of the country to exert pressure on it, as per South Africa. As per the Irish seeing some parallels with their own struggle and that of the Palestinians, there are as many differences as similarities.
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On March 05 2024 00:27 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2024 22:24 Nebuchad wrote:On March 04 2024 21:54 JimmiC wrote:On March 04 2024 17:06 Nebuchad wrote:
There's also no indication of what was so wrong with GH's post specifically, as the post doesn't seem to address his point in any real fashion. I'm not sure how you would. How do you put a percentage on what cause what? Obviously how Israel has treated teh Palestinians has pushed the people towards radicalization. But Iran, Lebanon, Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Egypt and so on have all seen massive radicalization, along with a bunch of countries I have not named. And it would be a real stretch to blame Israel for them. So while a factor I think you would be hard pressed to say the biggest factor, and certainly not globally. I would not be hard pressed to say it's the biggest factor, it's extremely obvious that it's the biggest factor. You mentioned a list of middle eastern countries that have seen radicalization but of course in statistical terms that doesn't really make a ton of sense, the proportion of people that are radicalized in those countries is nowhere near comparable to the proportion of people that are part of Hamas in Gaza, so clearly there's something specific happening there that we need to think about (and luckily we don't have to think too long, because we know what it is). You can also think about the situation mechanically, in terms of a chain reaction, what is more likely to be causing people to be radicalized in an occupied territory, is it the violent occupation, or some elaborate other reason? I would actually be willing to bet that there are literally more people outside of Palestine that are radicalized by proxy because of what Israel is doing to Palestinians, without having a link to Palestine or the arab world or islam themselves, than there are Palestinians who are radicalized by something else than what Israel is doing to them. The radicalization has accelerated in Gaza no doubt, but that has been since Iran's influence moved in. Israel has been doing the same, if not less as the the radicalization has increased. You logic there is really flawed, and some of the points you make are so wrong they are backwards. You have many places that have active wars where it is different groups of radicalized groups fighting each other, completely independent of Israel. I think you would need some pretty big mental gymnastics to blame Israel for what is happening in the Afghanistan part of the world for example, but I wouldn't be surprised if you could manage.
I don't personnally think that Iran is more successful at convincing Palestinians to radicalize than seeing a bunch of their family members and countrymen getting murdered, oppressed and displaced, I don't really think that humans function like this.
It's interesting that in those other places where there are active wars you have managed to figure out that the different fighting groups are radicalizing each other, but somehow for Israel vs Palestine it's impossible for you to come to the same conclusion, that the fighting groups are radicalizing each other. It's almost like you're not applying the same logic consistently.
Obviously I don't think that Israel is the main factor in radicalizing people in Afghanistan, which is why I said nothing close to this, but I assume you're just saying this to be annoying?
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On March 05 2024 01:25 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2024 01:14 Nebuchad wrote:On March 05 2024 00:27 JimmiC wrote:On March 04 2024 22:24 Nebuchad wrote:On March 04 2024 21:54 JimmiC wrote:On March 04 2024 17:06 Nebuchad wrote:
There's also no indication of what was so wrong with GH's post specifically, as the post doesn't seem to address his point in any real fashion. I'm not sure how you would. How do you put a percentage on what cause what? Obviously how Israel has treated teh Palestinians has pushed the people towards radicalization. But Iran, Lebanon, Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Egypt and so on have all seen massive radicalization, along with a bunch of countries I have not named. And it would be a real stretch to blame Israel for them. So while a factor I think you would be hard pressed to say the biggest factor, and certainly not globally. I would not be hard pressed to say it's the biggest factor, it's extremely obvious that it's the biggest factor. You mentioned a list of middle eastern countries that have seen radicalization but of course in statistical terms that doesn't really make a ton of sense, the proportion of people that are radicalized in those countries is nowhere near comparable to the proportion of people that are part of Hamas in Gaza, so clearly there's something specific happening there that we need to think about (and luckily we don't have to think too long, because we know what it is). You can also think about the situation mechanically, in terms of a chain reaction, what is more likely to be causing people to be radicalized in an occupied territory, is it the violent occupation, or some elaborate other reason? I would actually be willing to bet that there are literally more people outside of Palestine that are radicalized by proxy because of what Israel is doing to Palestinians, without having a link to Palestine or the arab world or islam themselves, than there are Palestinians who are radicalized by something else than what Israel is doing to them. The radicalization has accelerated in Gaza no doubt, but that has been since Iran's influence moved in. Israel has been doing the same, if not less as the the radicalization has increased. You logic there is really flawed, and some of the points you make are so wrong they are backwards. You have many places that have active wars where it is different groups of radicalized groups fighting each other, completely independent of Israel. I think you would need some pretty big mental gymnastics to blame Israel for what is happening in the Afghanistan part of the world for example, but I wouldn't be surprised if you could manage. I don't personnally think that Iran is more successful at convincing Palestinians to radicalize than seeing a bunch of their family members and countrymen getting murdered, oppressed and displaced, I don't really think that humans function like this. It's interesting that in those other places where there are active wars you have managed to figure out that the different fighting groups are radicalizing each other, but somehow for Israel vs Palestine it's impossible for you to come to the same conclusion, that the fighting groups are radicalizing each other. It's almost like you're not applying the same logic consistently. Obviously I don't think that Israel is the main factor in radicalizing people in Afghanistan, which is why I said nothing close to this, but I assume you're just saying this to be annoying? You totally missed my point, which seems almost purposeful at this point. But look at Gaza in 2004 and compare it to Gaza in sept 2023. Isreal did the same or more accurately much less there than they had in the previous 2 decades and yet extremism grew exponentially. Does Israel play a role, of course I’ve never said it didn’t but is it the only factor, of course not.
How have you come to the conclusion that extremism grew exponentially between 2004 and today?
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On March 05 2024 02:05 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2024 01:27 Nebuchad wrote:On March 05 2024 01:25 JimmiC wrote:On March 05 2024 01:14 Nebuchad wrote:On March 05 2024 00:27 JimmiC wrote:On March 04 2024 22:24 Nebuchad wrote:On March 04 2024 21:54 JimmiC wrote:On March 04 2024 17:06 Nebuchad wrote:
There's also no indication of what was so wrong with GH's post specifically, as the post doesn't seem to address his point in any real fashion. I'm not sure how you would. How do you put a percentage on what cause what? Obviously how Israel has treated teh Palestinians has pushed the people towards radicalization. But Iran, Lebanon, Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Egypt and so on have all seen massive radicalization, along with a bunch of countries I have not named. And it would be a real stretch to blame Israel for them. So while a factor I think you would be hard pressed to say the biggest factor, and certainly not globally. I would not be hard pressed to say it's the biggest factor, it's extremely obvious that it's the biggest factor. You mentioned a list of middle eastern countries that have seen radicalization but of course in statistical terms that doesn't really make a ton of sense, the proportion of people that are radicalized in those countries is nowhere near comparable to the proportion of people that are part of Hamas in Gaza, so clearly there's something specific happening there that we need to think about (and luckily we don't have to think too long, because we know what it is). You can also think about the situation mechanically, in terms of a chain reaction, what is more likely to be causing people to be radicalized in an occupied territory, is it the violent occupation, or some elaborate other reason? I would actually be willing to bet that there are literally more people outside of Palestine that are radicalized by proxy because of what Israel is doing to Palestinians, without having a link to Palestine or the arab world or islam themselves, than there are Palestinians who are radicalized by something else than what Israel is doing to them. The radicalization has accelerated in Gaza no doubt, but that has been since Iran's influence moved in. Israel has been doing the same, if not less as the the radicalization has increased. You logic there is really flawed, and some of the points you make are so wrong they are backwards. You have many places that have active wars where it is different groups of radicalized groups fighting each other, completely independent of Israel. I think you would need some pretty big mental gymnastics to blame Israel for what is happening in the Afghanistan part of the world for example, but I wouldn't be surprised if you could manage. I don't personnally think that Iran is more successful at convincing Palestinians to radicalize than seeing a bunch of their family members and countrymen getting murdered, oppressed and displaced, I don't really think that humans function like this. It's interesting that in those other places where there are active wars you have managed to figure out that the different fighting groups are radicalizing each other, but somehow for Israel vs Palestine it's impossible for you to come to the same conclusion, that the fighting groups are radicalizing each other. It's almost like you're not applying the same logic consistently. Obviously I don't think that Israel is the main factor in radicalizing people in Afghanistan, which is why I said nothing close to this, but I assume you're just saying this to be annoying? You totally missed my point, which seems almost purposeful at this point. But look at Gaza in 2004 and compare it to Gaza in sept 2023. Isreal did the same or more accurately much less there than they had in the previous 2 decades and yet extremism grew exponentially. Does Israel play a role, of course I’ve never said it didn’t but is it the only factor, of course not. How have you come to the conclusion that extremism grew exponentially between 2004 and today? Lots of measures. Rocket attacks is an easy one. Is this something you were not aware of? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
Rockets check for your capacity to launch rockets, not your willingness to launch them. Hamas funding has increased especially under policy of Netanyahou letting it happen, that's not a good measure for the question I asked though
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On March 04 2024 06:34 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2024 06:29 stilt wrote:On March 02 2024 18:58 RvB wrote:On March 02 2024 12:56 Salazarz wrote:On March 02 2024 05:29 JimmiC wrote:On March 02 2024 05:22 WombaT wrote:On March 02 2024 04:55 JimmiC wrote:On March 02 2024 04:21 Salazarz wrote:On March 02 2024 00:31 JimmiC wrote:
Soldiers who have lost mates in the conflict and likely friends and family who were civilians before it.
War is fucking shit. Have you even read the article before commenting on it? It's not talking about soldiers, these are random Israeli civilians being hateful cunts and nothing else to it. They're literally talking about wanting Gazan children to die because 'they'll grow up to be terrorists someday anyway.' Like, no shit they will if you treat them like this. Omg! There are hateful Israelis! You should read some hateful quotes from Americans, Canadians, Koreans and literally people any where and every where. Tons about the Jews from all the countries around, but usually they only print the ones from the leaders. It’s not news, I mean it is if you are looking to paint all the Israelis in a bad light but for everyone else it should be like, duh there are hateful people everywhere. Sure but you seem to consistently handwave Israeli awfulness with ‘well this sucks what do you expect?’ way more easily than stuff on the Palestinian side of the ledger. No one posts the Palestinian civilians saying stuff because no one here hates the Palestinian civilians, if they did I would hand wave it as well. You have personally brought up Palestinians saying stuff to justify your positions in this thread multiple times. That aside, the real issue isn't that there is a bunch of hateful Israelis being, well, hateful. Most of us here already knew that Israelis are racist against Palestinians so it's not much of a surprise. The issue is that Israeli state actors -- including, apparently, high rank military commanders -- are complicit in blockades of absolutely vital aid. Not even because of some 'there might be guns in there!' excuse or whatever they've used to openly block aid deliveries in the past, but simply because they really just don't give a fuck about how many Gazans will starve and die, and they don't even care enough to pretend and lie about it. Depriving civilians of vital supplies is a war crime, by the way. You know, that thing you keep arguing Israel totally doesn't do. The article reads that way. Of course it does not mention that the IDF and police have clashed with the protestors before that [1] [2] [3] [4] and have continued to clash [5]. The protestors from the WP article were removed the day after [6]. The police and IDF have also continued facilitating aid to the strip [7]. It doesn't change the fact the famine is due to israeli blocus which include bombing and shoting at trucks while blocking it during inspection according to humanitarians which operate there. Humanitarians which israeli successfully villified to the point the support from western country ceased. There is only one responsible of this famine, negationism is bad. Most of the aid is coming through Egypt and is being stopped because the Egyptians don't want to die or have their trucks destroyed by Hamas and the other gangs they control. Why do you keep ignoring the reality of the situation? All this info is everywhere including this thread.
Israeli makes inspection on every trucks which goes on gaza including the ones which goes in Egypt, the fall of law and order is both due to starvation and what the what you call "war".
The bombing and shooting by israeli force has been documented as well. Same as the cut of water since october.
Multiples articles including ones I posted on this thread point those facts. Their sources being humanitarian from amnesty and wfn, a bit more serious than your "armed gangs suddently appear so no humanitarian can come".
You have obvious ideological reasons to deny it, at least you deny it contrary to some who are already assuming it. I guess the truth is bothering you but really the "let's make people starve and then justify this by how they're acting while starved" is a nice raisonning for genocide.
The famine didn't appear because of your armed gangs, it appeared because since 5 months there are not enough trucks.
Those guardians, Associates Press and france24 links have been posted earlier.
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On March 05 2024 02:05 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2024 01:27 Nebuchad wrote:On March 05 2024 01:25 JimmiC wrote:On March 05 2024 01:14 Nebuchad wrote:On March 05 2024 00:27 JimmiC wrote:On March 04 2024 22:24 Nebuchad wrote:On March 04 2024 21:54 JimmiC wrote:On March 04 2024 17:06 Nebuchad wrote:
There's also no indication of what was so wrong with GH's post specifically, as the post doesn't seem to address his point in any real fashion. I'm not sure how you would. How do you put a percentage on what cause what? Obviously how Israel has treated teh Palestinians has pushed the people towards radicalization. But Iran, Lebanon, Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Egypt and so on have all seen massive radicalization, along with a bunch of countries I have not named. And it would be a real stretch to blame Israel for them. So while a factor I think you would be hard pressed to say the biggest factor, and certainly not globally. I would not be hard pressed to say it's the biggest factor, it's extremely obvious that it's the biggest factor. You mentioned a list of middle eastern countries that have seen radicalization but of course in statistical terms that doesn't really make a ton of sense, the proportion of people that are radicalized in those countries is nowhere near comparable to the proportion of people that are part of Hamas in Gaza, so clearly there's something specific happening there that we need to think about (and luckily we don't have to think too long, because we know what it is). You can also think about the situation mechanically, in terms of a chain reaction, what is more likely to be causing people to be radicalized in an occupied territory, is it the violent occupation, or some elaborate other reason? I would actually be willing to bet that there are literally more people outside of Palestine that are radicalized by proxy because of what Israel is doing to Palestinians, without having a link to Palestine or the arab world or islam themselves, than there are Palestinians who are radicalized by something else than what Israel is doing to them. The radicalization has accelerated in Gaza no doubt, but that has been since Iran's influence moved in. Israel has been doing the same, if not less as the the radicalization has increased. You logic there is really flawed, and some of the points you make are so wrong they are backwards. You have many places that have active wars where it is different groups of radicalized groups fighting each other, completely independent of Israel. I think you would need some pretty big mental gymnastics to blame Israel for what is happening in the Afghanistan part of the world for example, but I wouldn't be surprised if you could manage. I don't personnally think that Iran is more successful at convincing Palestinians to radicalize than seeing a bunch of their family members and countrymen getting murdered, oppressed and displaced, I don't really think that humans function like this. It's interesting that in those other places where there are active wars you have managed to figure out that the different fighting groups are radicalizing each other, but somehow for Israel vs Palestine it's impossible for you to come to the same conclusion, that the fighting groups are radicalizing each other. It's almost like you're not applying the same logic consistently. Obviously I don't think that Israel is the main factor in radicalizing people in Afghanistan, which is why I said nothing close to this, but I assume you're just saying this to be annoying? You totally missed my point, which seems almost purposeful at this point. But look at Gaza in 2004 and compare it to Gaza in sept 2023. Isreal did the same or more accurately much less there than they had in the previous 2 decades and yet extremism grew exponentially. Does Israel play a role, of course I’ve never said it didn’t but is it the only factor, of course not. How have you come to the conclusion that extremism grew exponentially between 2004 and today? Lots of measures. Rocket attacks is an easy one. Is this something you were not aware of? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
Are you not aware of the two intifadas and the suicide bombing campaign during the 90s 2000s?
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On March 05 2024 05:01 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2024 02:23 stilt wrote:On March 04 2024 06:34 JimmiC wrote:On March 04 2024 06:29 stilt wrote:On March 02 2024 18:58 RvB wrote:On March 02 2024 12:56 Salazarz wrote:On March 02 2024 05:29 JimmiC wrote:On March 02 2024 05:22 WombaT wrote:On March 02 2024 04:55 JimmiC wrote:On March 02 2024 04:21 Salazarz wrote:
[quote]
Have you even read the article before commenting on it? It's not talking about soldiers, these are random Israeli civilians being hateful cunts and nothing else to it. They're literally talking about wanting Gazan children to die because 'they'll grow up to be terrorists someday anyway.' Like, no shit they will if you treat them like this. Omg! There are hateful Israelis! You should read some hateful quotes from Americans, Canadians, Koreans and literally people any where and every where. Tons about the Jews from all the countries around, but usually they only print the ones from the leaders. It’s not news, I mean it is if you are looking to paint all the Israelis in a bad light but for everyone else it should be like, duh there are hateful people everywhere. Sure but you seem to consistently handwave Israeli awfulness with ‘well this sucks what do you expect?’ way more easily than stuff on the Palestinian side of the ledger. No one posts the Palestinian civilians saying stuff because no one here hates the Palestinian civilians, if they did I would hand wave it as well. You have personally brought up Palestinians saying stuff to justify your positions in this thread multiple times. That aside, the real issue isn't that there is a bunch of hateful Israelis being, well, hateful. Most of us here already knew that Israelis are racist against Palestinians so it's not much of a surprise. The issue is that Israeli state actors -- including, apparently, high rank military commanders -- are complicit in blockades of absolutely vital aid. Not even because of some 'there might be guns in there!' excuse or whatever they've used to openly block aid deliveries in the past, but simply because they really just don't give a fuck about how many Gazans will starve and die, and they don't even care enough to pretend and lie about it. Depriving civilians of vital supplies is a war crime, by the way. You know, that thing you keep arguing Israel totally doesn't do. The article reads that way. Of course it does not mention that the IDF and police have clashed with the protestors before that [1] [2] [3] [4] and have continued to clash [5]. The protestors from the WP article were removed the day after [6]. The police and IDF have also continued facilitating aid to the strip [7]. It doesn't change the fact the famine is due to israeli blocus which include bombing and shoting at trucks while blocking it during inspection according to humanitarians which operate there. Humanitarians which israeli successfully villified to the point the support from western country ceased. There is only one responsible of this famine, negationism is bad. Most of the aid is coming through Egypt and is being stopped because the Egyptians don't want to die or have their trucks destroyed by Hamas and the other gangs they control. Why do you keep ignoring the reality of the situation? All this info is everywhere including this thread. Israeli makes inspection on every trucks which goes on gaza including the ones which goes in Egypt, the fall of law and order is both due to starvation and what the what you call "war". The bombing and shooting by israeli force has been documented as well. Same as the cut of water since october. Multiples articles including ones I posted on this thread point those facts. Their sources being humanitarian from amnesty and wfn, a bit more serious than your "armed gangs suddently appear so no humanitarian can come". You have obvious ideological reasons to deny it, at least you deny it contrary to some who are already assuming it. I guess the truth is bothering you but really the "let's make people starve and then justify this by how they're acting while starved" is a nice raisonning for genocide. The famine didn't appear because of your armed gangs, it appeared because since 5 months there are not enough trucks.Those guardians, Associates Press and france24 links have been posted earlier. I agree with you that the over arching reason for the Famine is the war that Hamas, the government of Gaza, started with their heinous attack of Israeli citizens including women and children as well as the additional war crimes of taking hostages of Israeli citizens including women and children. But if were talking about why the trucks have slowed down to the point of famine, so short term reasons, it is not the Israeli inspections as those have happened the entire time, it is the unwillingness of the Egyptian trucks to currently enter.
Nice, at least you agree there is a famine and during those times, do you agree this generates a collapse of the law and order ? Especially when the ever loving israelis would obviously kill any armed palestinian which could protect these convoys.
Like any concentration camp, we have here the law of the strongest.
Except your point is "the collapse of law and order" caused famine which caused "the collapse of law and order" and so on, in the end, that's all their faults, this loop doesn't work if you don't put a external cause to begin it like the israeli blocus.
This article counters pretty much your loose interpretation and assessement on "it's not israelis inspections because they happened the entiere time" :
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231222-gaza-bound-aid-trucks-endure-grueling-wait-at-border
It was the situation in december by the way. Bombing trucks and inspection has considerably slowed the aid, it's pretty hard to deny it.
Another proof come from this article that since the very beginning the aid has been reduced, it was during the time some were justifying the bombing of ambulances.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/19/us-food-medicine-aid-gaza-un-famine-warnings-israel
So, before the collapse of law and order the aid was severely hamped.
The israeli attack on association and the suspension of funding which resulted of it is another aspect of the israeli blocus.
Same goes for amnesty, here is a publication before the so called "stampede" or let's call it for what it was, the slaughter.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/02/israel-defying-icj-ruling-to-prevent-genocide-by-failing-to-allow-adequate-humanitarian-aid-to-reach-gaza/
As far as the north of situation in the north of gaza which is now unreachable, it is possible to circumvent the south and directly giving aid there if Israël opens his passage there but they prefer to hamper UN organization : https://www.voanews.com/a/why-isn-t-desperately-needed-aid-reaching-palestinians-in-gaza-/7499319.html
So no we disagree as you are denying facts.
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On March 05 2024 05:15 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2024 02:16 Nebuchad wrote:On March 05 2024 02:05 JimmiC wrote:On March 05 2024 01:27 Nebuchad wrote:On March 05 2024 01:25 JimmiC wrote:On March 05 2024 01:14 Nebuchad wrote:On March 05 2024 00:27 JimmiC wrote:On March 04 2024 22:24 Nebuchad wrote:On March 04 2024 21:54 JimmiC wrote:On March 04 2024 17:06 Nebuchad wrote:
There's also no indication of what was so wrong with GH's post specifically, as the post doesn't seem to address his point in any real fashion. I'm not sure how you would. How do you put a percentage on what cause what? Obviously how Israel has treated teh Palestinians has pushed the people towards radicalization. But Iran, Lebanon, Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Egypt and so on have all seen massive radicalization, along with a bunch of countries I have not named. And it would be a real stretch to blame Israel for them. So while a factor I think you would be hard pressed to say the biggest factor, and certainly not globally. I would not be hard pressed to say it's the biggest factor, it's extremely obvious that it's the biggest factor. You mentioned a list of middle eastern countries that have seen radicalization but of course in statistical terms that doesn't really make a ton of sense, the proportion of people that are radicalized in those countries is nowhere near comparable to the proportion of people that are part of Hamas in Gaza, so clearly there's something specific happening there that we need to think about (and luckily we don't have to think too long, because we know what it is). You can also think about the situation mechanically, in terms of a chain reaction, what is more likely to be causing people to be radicalized in an occupied territory, is it the violent occupation, or some elaborate other reason? I would actually be willing to bet that there are literally more people outside of Palestine that are radicalized by proxy because of what Israel is doing to Palestinians, without having a link to Palestine or the arab world or islam themselves, than there are Palestinians who are radicalized by something else than what Israel is doing to them. The radicalization has accelerated in Gaza no doubt, but that has been since Iran's influence moved in. Israel has been doing the same, if not less as the the radicalization has increased. You logic there is really flawed, and some of the points you make are so wrong they are backwards. You have many places that have active wars where it is different groups of radicalized groups fighting each other, completely independent of Israel. I think you would need some pretty big mental gymnastics to blame Israel for what is happening in the Afghanistan part of the world for example, but I wouldn't be surprised if you could manage. I don't personnally think that Iran is more successful at convincing Palestinians to radicalize than seeing a bunch of their family members and countrymen getting murdered, oppressed and displaced, I don't really think that humans function like this. It's interesting that in those other places where there are active wars you have managed to figure out that the different fighting groups are radicalizing each other, but somehow for Israel vs Palestine it's impossible for you to come to the same conclusion, that the fighting groups are radicalizing each other. It's almost like you're not applying the same logic consistently. Obviously I don't think that Israel is the main factor in radicalizing people in Afghanistan, which is why I said nothing close to this, but I assume you're just saying this to be annoying? You totally missed my point, which seems almost purposeful at this point. But look at Gaza in 2004 and compare it to Gaza in sept 2023. Isreal did the same or more accurately much less there than they had in the previous 2 decades and yet extremism grew exponentially. Does Israel play a role, of course I’ve never said it didn’t but is it the only factor, of course not. How have you come to the conclusion that extremism grew exponentially between 2004 and today? Lots of measures. Rocket attacks is an easy one. Is this something you were not aware of? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel Rockets check for your capacity to launch rockets, not your willingness to launch them. Hamas funding has increased especially under policy of Netanyahou letting it happen, that's not a good measure for the question I asked though How about opinion polls? Pro Armed action 2015 42% 2016 35% 2017 44% 2020 41% 2021 48% 2022 51% In 2019 there was a explosive device attack and they asked citizens of the west bank and Gaza if they supported it. If settlements where the main issue of the Palestinians you would expect WB to be more extreme than Gaza. Support, WB 49% Gaza 80 % Would a new Infitada advance Palestinian Quest to statehood. WB 36% G 44 % All Palestinians do you support or oppose suicide bombings. 2013 support 62% 1997 28% (side note not a straight line and very high (80+% in 2001) Do rocket attack Help or Harm WB help 35% harm 29% Gaza help 45% harm 30% In 2006 should Hamas continue violent operations in Israel WB continue 34% WB 46% Big change to 2019 no? Do you support Knife attacks? WB Strong support 18% Support 24% Gaza Strong support 37% Support 42% Edit: Also I agree that Bibi wanted and helped to make relations worse. He and Hamas agree that a two state solution won't work.
So the main one that seems to have changed a lot from 2000 is this one right?
"All Palestinians do you support or oppose suicide bombings.
2013 support 62%
1997 28%"
But you undercut it immediately with this "(side note not a straight line and very high (80+% in 2001)"
The rest appears to be within 10% change unless I've missed something.
So no I'm not getting a sense from these polls that there's an exponential amount of extremism in Palestine compared to 2004.
I'm also noticing stuff like 62% of Palestinians support suicide bombings in 2013, but 42% of Palestinians support armed action in 2015, so there appears to be at the very least methodology questions with regard to these polls.
I did try and find some information about how many people were in the militant wing of the PLO or in the Al-Aqsa Brigades btw, but after like 10 minutes I came up short. I don't really know the answer to the question. You can also keep in mind that during some of these periods, peace seemed much more likely than today, for example after Rabin's murder it would make sense that at least some amount of people who were okay with a peaceful resolution got disillusioned with that path and turned to violent resistance.
The other thing that I have a lot of trouble envisioning is exactly what Iran is telling them. I'm setting the scene, I'm a Palestinian but not an extremist, everything that Israel has been doing hasn't turned me. But then Iran comes on the scene and they finally make me an extremist. How? What did they get me to see that all those dead children didn't get me to see before?
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EPT
