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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On March 05 2024 06:33 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2024 06:09 Nebuchad wrote:On March 05 2024 05:15 JimmiC wrote:On March 05 2024 02:16 Nebuchad wrote:On March 05 2024 02:05 JimmiC wrote:On March 05 2024 01:27 Nebuchad wrote:On March 05 2024 01:25 JimmiC wrote:On March 05 2024 01:14 Nebuchad wrote:On March 05 2024 00:27 JimmiC wrote:On March 04 2024 22:24 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
I would not be hard pressed to say it's the biggest factor, it's extremely obvious that it's the biggest factor.
You mentioned a list of middle eastern countries that have seen radicalization but of course in statistical terms that doesn't really make a ton of sense, the proportion of people that are radicalized in those countries is nowhere near comparable to the proportion of people that are part of Hamas in Gaza, so clearly there's something specific happening there that we need to think about (and luckily we don't have to think too long, because we know what it is).
You can also think about the situation mechanically, in terms of a chain reaction, what is more likely to be causing people to be radicalized in an occupied territory, is it the violent occupation, or some elaborate other reason?
I would actually be willing to bet that there are literally more people outside of Palestine that are radicalized by proxy because of what Israel is doing to Palestinians, without having a link to Palestine or the arab world or islam themselves, than there are Palestinians who are radicalized by something else than what Israel is doing to them. The radicalization has accelerated in Gaza no doubt, but that has been since Iran's influence moved in. Israel has been doing the same, if not less as the the radicalization has increased. You logic there is really flawed, and some of the points you make are so wrong they are backwards. You have many places that have active wars where it is different groups of radicalized groups fighting each other, completely independent of Israel. I think you would need some pretty big mental gymnastics to blame Israel for what is happening in the Afghanistan part of the world for example, but I wouldn't be surprised if you could manage. I don't personnally think that Iran is more successful at convincing Palestinians to radicalize than seeing a bunch of their family members and countrymen getting murdered, oppressed and displaced, I don't really think that humans function like this. It's interesting that in those other places where there are active wars you have managed to figure out that the different fighting groups are radicalizing each other, but somehow for Israel vs Palestine it's impossible for you to come to the same conclusion, that the fighting groups are radicalizing each other. It's almost like you're not applying the same logic consistently. Obviously I don't think that Israel is the main factor in radicalizing people in Afghanistan, which is why I said nothing close to this, but I assume you're just saying this to be annoying? You totally missed my point, which seems almost purposeful at this point. But look at Gaza in 2004 and compare it to Gaza in sept 2023. Isreal did the same or more accurately much less there than they had in the previous 2 decades and yet extremism grew exponentially. Does Israel play a role, of course I’ve never said it didn’t but is it the only factor, of course not. How have you come to the conclusion that extremism grew exponentially between 2004 and today? Lots of measures. Rocket attacks is an easy one. Is this something you were not aware of? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel Rockets check for your capacity to launch rockets, not your willingness to launch them. Hamas funding has increased especially under policy of Netanyahou letting it happen, that's not a good measure for the question I asked though How about opinion polls? Pro Armed action 2015 42% 2016 35% 2017 44% 2020 41% 2021 48% 2022 51% In 2019 there was a explosive device attack and they asked citizens of the west bank and Gaza if they supported it. If settlements where the main issue of the Palestinians you would expect WB to be more extreme than Gaza. Support, WB 49% Gaza 80 % Would a new Infitada advance Palestinian Quest to statehood. WB 36% G 44 % All Palestinians do you support or oppose suicide bombings. 2013 support 62% 1997 28% (side note not a straight line and very high (80+% in 2001) Do rocket attack Help or Harm WB help 35% harm 29% Gaza help 45% harm 30% In 2006 should Hamas continue violent operations in Israel WB continue 34% WB 46% Big change to 2019 no? Do you support Knife attacks? WB Strong support 18% Support 24% Gaza Strong support 37% Support 42% Edit: Also I agree that Bibi wanted and helped to make relations worse. He and Hamas agree that a two state solution won't work. So the main one that seems to have changed a lot from 2000 is this one right? "All Palestinians do you support or oppose suicide bombings. 2013 support 62% 1997 28%" But you undercut it immediately with this "(side note not a straight line and very high (80+% in 2001)" The rest appears to be within 10% change unless I've missed something. So no I'm not getting a sense from these polls that there's an exponential amount of extremism in Palestine compared to 2004. I'm also noticing stuff like 62% of Palestinians support suicide bombings in 2013, but 42% of Palestinians support armed action in 2015, so there appears to be at the very least methodology questions with regard to these polls. I did try and find some information about how many people were in the militant wing of the PLO or in the Al-Aqsa Brigades btw, but after like 10 minutes I came up short. I don't really know the answer to the question. You can also keep in mind that during some of these periods, peace seemed much more likely than today, for example after Rabin's murder it would make sense that at least some amount of people who were okay with a peaceful resolution got disillusioned with that path and turned to violent resistance. The other thing that I have a lot of trouble envisioning is exactly what Iran is telling them. I'm setting the scene, I'm a Palestinian but not an extremist, everything that Israel has been doing hasn't turned me. But then Iran comes on the scene and they finally make me an extremist. How? What did they get me to see that all those dead children didn't get me to see before? I can't really disagree with your post too much as the evidence I have as you say is not so compelling as to change minds, and I undercut my one on purpose as not to cherry pick to much data on top of my existing bias. I think you really see Iran's influence when you look at the differences between Gaza and the Westbank, they took control of all the school and taught hate among other massive hateful propaganda campaigns. And we all know propaganda works. Your last sentence is shitty. But the reality is the butcher of Khan Younis and many other Hamas "freedom fighters" killed a shit ton of Palestinians. Putting your military assets under day cares sure does not help the children. And it is not hard to draw a line between their atrocities and the current war. There is no question that they purposefully started it.
Okay, they take control of all the schools and teach hate, but, like, what? What are they saying exactly? What could possibly be more compelling as propaganda to a Palestinian audience than what Israel is actually doing?
Look, I get that you're mainly arguing because it's me and GH presenting the point, and otherwise you wouldn't, so that's why I'm not getting too mad at you. But surely you have to realize how dehumanizing this line of argument is. When a group of humans is so deeply wronged by another group of humans, obviously that's going to be the main factor in the development of extremism. It's not difficult to understand why Palestinians are prone to hate Israelis, or why Israelis are prone to hate Palestinians, it's an extremely logical human reaction to their set of circumstances. When I watched the beginning of The Boys earlier tonight I didn't wonder what was the main factor in Hughie radicalizing, I could tell it wasn't Butcher.
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Thus no ceasefire I'd expect. Also don't think Israel will allow for such a peace deal without a list of hostages and allow Hamas to regroup.
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On March 05 2024 07:29 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2024 07:15 Nebuchad wrote:On March 05 2024 06:33 JimmiC wrote:On March 05 2024 06:09 Nebuchad wrote:On March 05 2024 05:15 JimmiC wrote:On March 05 2024 02:16 Nebuchad wrote:On March 05 2024 02:05 JimmiC wrote:On March 05 2024 01:27 Nebuchad wrote:On March 05 2024 01:25 JimmiC wrote:On March 05 2024 01:14 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
I don't personnally think that Iran is more successful at convincing Palestinians to radicalize than seeing a bunch of their family members and countrymen getting murdered, oppressed and displaced, I don't really think that humans function like this.
It's interesting that in those other places where there are active wars you have managed to figure out that the different fighting groups are radicalizing each other, but somehow for Israel vs Palestine it's impossible for you to come to the same conclusion, that the fighting groups are radicalizing each other. It's almost like you're not applying the same logic consistently.
Obviously I don't think that Israel is the main factor in radicalizing people in Afghanistan, which is why I said nothing close to this, but I assume you're just saying this to be annoying? You totally missed my point, which seems almost purposeful at this point. But look at Gaza in 2004 and compare it to Gaza in sept 2023. Isreal did the same or more accurately much less there than they had in the previous 2 decades and yet extremism grew exponentially. Does Israel play a role, of course I’ve never said it didn’t but is it the only factor, of course not. How have you come to the conclusion that extremism grew exponentially between 2004 and today? Lots of measures. Rocket attacks is an easy one. Is this something you were not aware of? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel Rockets check for your capacity to launch rockets, not your willingness to launch them. Hamas funding has increased especially under policy of Netanyahou letting it happen, that's not a good measure for the question I asked though How about opinion polls? Pro Armed action 2015 42% 2016 35% 2017 44% 2020 41% 2021 48% 2022 51% In 2019 there was a explosive device attack and they asked citizens of the west bank and Gaza if they supported it. If settlements where the main issue of the Palestinians you would expect WB to be more extreme than Gaza. Support, WB 49% Gaza 80 % Would a new Infitada advance Palestinian Quest to statehood. WB 36% G 44 % All Palestinians do you support or oppose suicide bombings. 2013 support 62% 1997 28% (side note not a straight line and very high (80+% in 2001) Do rocket attack Help or Harm WB help 35% harm 29% Gaza help 45% harm 30% In 2006 should Hamas continue violent operations in Israel WB continue 34% WB 46% Big change to 2019 no? Do you support Knife attacks? WB Strong support 18% Support 24% Gaza Strong support 37% Support 42% Edit: Also I agree that Bibi wanted and helped to make relations worse. He and Hamas agree that a two state solution won't work. So the main one that seems to have changed a lot from 2000 is this one right? "All Palestinians do you support or oppose suicide bombings. 2013 support 62% 1997 28%" But you undercut it immediately with this "(side note not a straight line and very high (80+% in 2001)" The rest appears to be within 10% change unless I've missed something. So no I'm not getting a sense from these polls that there's an exponential amount of extremism in Palestine compared to 2004. I'm also noticing stuff like 62% of Palestinians support suicide bombings in 2013, but 42% of Palestinians support armed action in 2015, so there appears to be at the very least methodology questions with regard to these polls. I did try and find some information about how many people were in the militant wing of the PLO or in the Al-Aqsa Brigades btw, but after like 10 minutes I came up short. I don't really know the answer to the question. You can also keep in mind that during some of these periods, peace seemed much more likely than today, for example after Rabin's murder it would make sense that at least some amount of people who were okay with a peaceful resolution got disillusioned with that path and turned to violent resistance. The other thing that I have a lot of trouble envisioning is exactly what Iran is telling them. I'm setting the scene, I'm a Palestinian but not an extremist, everything that Israel has been doing hasn't turned me. But then Iran comes on the scene and they finally make me an extremist. How? What did they get me to see that all those dead children didn't get me to see before? I can't really disagree with your post too much as the evidence I have as you say is not so compelling as to change minds, and I undercut my one on purpose as not to cherry pick to much data on top of my existing bias. I think you really see Iran's influence when you look at the differences between Gaza and the Westbank, they took control of all the school and taught hate among other massive hateful propaganda campaigns. And we all know propaganda works. Your last sentence is shitty. But the reality is the butcher of Khan Younis and many other Hamas "freedom fighters" killed a shit ton of Palestinians. Putting your military assets under day cares sure does not help the children. And it is not hard to draw a line between their atrocities and the current war. There is no question that they purposefully started it. Okay, they take control of all the schools and teach hate, but, like, what? What are they saying exactly? What could possibly be more compelling as propaganda to a Palestinian audience than what Israel is actually doing? Look, I get that you're mainly arguing because it's me and GH presenting the point, and otherwise you wouldn't, so that's why I'm not getting too mad at you. But surely you have to realize how dehumanizing this line of argument is. When a group of humans is so deeply wronged by another group of humans, obviously that's going to be the main factor in the development of extremism. It's not difficult to understand why Palestinians are prone to hate Israelis, or why Israelis are prone to hate Palestinians, it's an extremely logical human reaction to their set of circumstances. When I watched the beginning of The Boys earlier tonight I didn't wonder what was the main factor in Hughie radicalizing, I could tell it wasn't Butcher. I understand that is your fantasy, partly due to perhaps narcissism. But the main reason I'm arguing is because the situation is actually a lot more complicated than Israel is evil and everything is their fault, with a touch of I hate bullies and what you and others are doing to Cerebrate1 disturbs me. I don't find that you personally have risen to the bar of a person that I would describe as antisemitic. But I do believe that you have read a lot of information that people who are antisemitic have written. I also believe in the era of social media that people who get their information that way only end up getting one side of the story (any story) which is polarizing society on all sorts of issue. A big bone of contention we have, is you believe only Israel is oppressing the Palestinians, and I agree with the Palestinians that it is both Hamas and Israel. If this thread was reversed (as it is on different spots on the internet) I would appear to be one sided in the other direction to everyone who was over the top pro-Israel. I bet if you asked Cerebrate1 if he thought I was pro-Israel he would say that I am for this thread but not overall, I mean I've been clear that I disagree with their choice to invade by the ground and many other things. I actually do no understand why you can have so much empathy for just one side of this conflict. The amount of awful that both have gone through is unique which is saying lots in the world we live in. And that awful is often from countries and people that are not either Israel or Palestine. It is countries like Russia, Iran, UK, Germany, the US, Lebanon, Syria, the list goes on and on. It is obviously not going to happen but it really too bad both sides do not realize that they are being fucked by everyone from the outside and work together. Palestinians within Israel's borders arguably have it better than Muslim's anywhere else in the middle east. (try being a Sunni or a Shia in the wrong place, or the few Kurds lucky enough to be refugee's there). Inarguably the Muslim women have it better. Not that there is any great wisdom in saying that getting along is better for everyone than killing each other.
You may hate bullies but clearly you don't hate bullying, as the entirety of your contribution to this forum for years has shown, so it's not very clear why you hate bullies.
In terms of the facts on the ground, it is true that Israel has occupied Palestine for decades, it is true that Israel is progressively taking more and more of their land, and it is true that Israel is engaging in violence to maintain that system, which results in a large amount of deaths over the years. None of that is in dispute. I see those facts and I conclude, that's probably why Palestinians tend to have extremely negative views regarding Israel, and those views radicalize them. You dislike that because it's too simple and too "Israel is evil". Okay, but I don't really see why I'm supposed to care. You will notice that I don't have any trouble talking about how the violence that Palestine engages in in response to the occupation that they're experiencing, the deaths that they're causing and the war crimes that they commit, is also the main factor in the radicalization of the Israeli population against Palestinians. But here I'm not getting any resistance, nobody thinks that it's too simple or too much of a "Palestine is evil" thing to say. In both cases it's just a bunch of facts about what's happening, there's no moral judgement going on. You can apply a moral judgement later, and obviously I do, but that's only secondary.
When it comes to empathy, I seriously think that when I empathize with people I'm not doing the same thing that you're doing. Empathy to me starts from the understanding that other people have other perspectives. And then once you've acknowledged those perspectives, you can put yourself in their place and understand how they get to their conclusions. I get the feeling that people (and perhaps you as well) often empathize with others by putting themselves in the person's place and wondering what they would do if they were that person. But they aren't that person, that's almost the entire point of empathy. To me this second process is much closer to sympathy than to empathy.
In that sense it's fairly easy for me to empathize with Israelis. I didn't grow up in a fascistic society but I did grow up in a conservative one, so their experiences are obviously heightened when compared to mine, but I understand a lot of the processes, they're similar to things I remember, even to things I used to think before I got better politics. It is way harder for me to put myself in the place of a Palestinian, their experience of the world is so wildly different from anything I've experienced.
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Northern Ireland22953 Posts
On March 05 2024 08:01 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2024 07:29 JimmiC wrote:On March 05 2024 07:15 Nebuchad wrote:On March 05 2024 06:33 JimmiC wrote:On March 05 2024 06:09 Nebuchad wrote:On March 05 2024 05:15 JimmiC wrote:On March 05 2024 02:16 Nebuchad wrote:On March 05 2024 02:05 JimmiC wrote:On March 05 2024 01:27 Nebuchad wrote:On March 05 2024 01:25 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
You totally missed my point, which seems almost purposeful at this point. But look at Gaza in 2004 and compare it to Gaza in sept 2023. Isreal did the same or more accurately much less there than they had in the previous 2 decades and yet extremism grew exponentially. Does Israel play a role, of course I’ve never said it didn’t but is it the only factor, of course not.
How have you come to the conclusion that extremism grew exponentially between 2004 and today? Lots of measures. Rocket attacks is an easy one. Is this something you were not aware of? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel Rockets check for your capacity to launch rockets, not your willingness to launch them. Hamas funding has increased especially under policy of Netanyahou letting it happen, that's not a good measure for the question I asked though How about opinion polls? Pro Armed action 2015 42% 2016 35% 2017 44% 2020 41% 2021 48% 2022 51% In 2019 there was a explosive device attack and they asked citizens of the west bank and Gaza if they supported it. If settlements where the main issue of the Palestinians you would expect WB to be more extreme than Gaza. Support, WB 49% Gaza 80 % Would a new Infitada advance Palestinian Quest to statehood. WB 36% G 44 % All Palestinians do you support or oppose suicide bombings. 2013 support 62% 1997 28% (side note not a straight line and very high (80+% in 2001) Do rocket attack Help or Harm WB help 35% harm 29% Gaza help 45% harm 30% In 2006 should Hamas continue violent operations in Israel WB continue 34% WB 46% Big change to 2019 no? Do you support Knife attacks? WB Strong support 18% Support 24% Gaza Strong support 37% Support 42% Edit: Also I agree that Bibi wanted and helped to make relations worse. He and Hamas agree that a two state solution won't work. So the main one that seems to have changed a lot from 2000 is this one right? "All Palestinians do you support or oppose suicide bombings. 2013 support 62% 1997 28%" But you undercut it immediately with this "(side note not a straight line and very high (80+% in 2001)" The rest appears to be within 10% change unless I've missed something. So no I'm not getting a sense from these polls that there's an exponential amount of extremism in Palestine compared to 2004. I'm also noticing stuff like 62% of Palestinians support suicide bombings in 2013, but 42% of Palestinians support armed action in 2015, so there appears to be at the very least methodology questions with regard to these polls. I did try and find some information about how many people were in the militant wing of the PLO or in the Al-Aqsa Brigades btw, but after like 10 minutes I came up short. I don't really know the answer to the question. You can also keep in mind that during some of these periods, peace seemed much more likely than today, for example after Rabin's murder it would make sense that at least some amount of people who were okay with a peaceful resolution got disillusioned with that path and turned to violent resistance. The other thing that I have a lot of trouble envisioning is exactly what Iran is telling them. I'm setting the scene, I'm a Palestinian but not an extremist, everything that Israel has been doing hasn't turned me. But then Iran comes on the scene and they finally make me an extremist. How? What did they get me to see that all those dead children didn't get me to see before? I can't really disagree with your post too much as the evidence I have as you say is not so compelling as to change minds, and I undercut my one on purpose as not to cherry pick to much data on top of my existing bias. I think you really see Iran's influence when you look at the differences between Gaza and the Westbank, they took control of all the school and taught hate among other massive hateful propaganda campaigns. And we all know propaganda works. Your last sentence is shitty. But the reality is the butcher of Khan Younis and many other Hamas "freedom fighters" killed a shit ton of Palestinians. Putting your military assets under day cares sure does not help the children. And it is not hard to draw a line between their atrocities and the current war. There is no question that they purposefully started it. Okay, they take control of all the schools and teach hate, but, like, what? What are they saying exactly? What could possibly be more compelling as propaganda to a Palestinian audience than what Israel is actually doing? Look, I get that you're mainly arguing because it's me and GH presenting the point, and otherwise you wouldn't, so that's why I'm not getting too mad at you. But surely you have to realize how dehumanizing this line of argument is. When a group of humans is so deeply wronged by another group of humans, obviously that's going to be the main factor in the development of extremism. It's not difficult to understand why Palestinians are prone to hate Israelis, or why Israelis are prone to hate Palestinians, it's an extremely logical human reaction to their set of circumstances. When I watched the beginning of The Boys earlier tonight I didn't wonder what was the main factor in Hughie radicalizing, I could tell it wasn't Butcher. I understand that is your fantasy, partly due to perhaps narcissism. But the main reason I'm arguing is because the situation is actually a lot more complicated than Israel is evil and everything is their fault, with a touch of I hate bullies and what you and others are doing to Cerebrate1 disturbs me. I don't find that you personally have risen to the bar of a person that I would describe as antisemitic. But I do believe that you have read a lot of information that people who are antisemitic have written. I also believe in the era of social media that people who get their information that way only end up getting one side of the story (any story) which is polarizing society on all sorts of issue. A big bone of contention we have, is you believe only Israel is oppressing the Palestinians, and I agree with the Palestinians that it is both Hamas and Israel. If this thread was reversed (as it is on different spots on the internet) I would appear to be one sided in the other direction to everyone who was over the top pro-Israel. I bet if you asked Cerebrate1 if he thought I was pro-Israel he would say that I am for this thread but not overall, I mean I've been clear that I disagree with their choice to invade by the ground and many other things. I actually do no understand why you can have so much empathy for just one side of this conflict. The amount of awful that both have gone through is unique which is saying lots in the world we live in. And that awful is often from countries and people that are not either Israel or Palestine. It is countries like Russia, Iran, UK, Germany, the US, Lebanon, Syria, the list goes on and on. It is obviously not going to happen but it really too bad both sides do not realize that they are being fucked by everyone from the outside and work together. Palestinians within Israel's borders arguably have it better than Muslim's anywhere else in the middle east. (try being a Sunni or a Shia in the wrong place, or the few Kurds lucky enough to be refugee's there). Inarguably the Muslim women have it better. Not that there is any great wisdom in saying that getting along is better for everyone than killing each other. You may hate bullies but clearly you don't hate bullying, as the entirety of your contribution to this forum for years has shown, so it's not very clear why you hate bullies. In terms of the facts on the ground, it is true that Israel has occupied Palestine for decades, it is true that Israel is progressively taking more and more of their land, and it is true that Israel is engaging in violence to maintain that system, which results in a large amount of deaths over the years. None of that is in dispute. I see those facts and I conclude, that's probably why Palestinians tend to have extremely negative views regarding Israel, and those views radicalize them. You dislike that because it's too simple and too "Israel is evil". Okay, but I don't really see why I'm supposed to care. You will notice that I don't have any trouble talking about how the violence that Palestine engages in in response to the occupation that they're experiencing, the deaths that they're causing and the war crimes that they commit, is also the main factor in the radicalization of the Israeli population against Palestinians. But here I'm not getting any resistance, nobody thinks that it's too simple or too much of a "Palestine is evil" thing to say. In both cases it's just a bunch of facts about what's happening, there's no moral judgement going on. You can apply a moral judgement later, and obviously I do, but that's only secondary. When it comes to empathy, I seriously think that when I empathize with people I'm not doing the same thing that you're doing. Empathy to me starts from the understanding that other people have other perspectives. And then once you've acknowledged those perspectives, you can put yourself in their place and understand how they get to their conclusions. I get the feeling that people (and perhaps you as well) often empathize with others by putting themselves in the person's place and wondering what they would do if they were that person. But they aren't that person, that's almost the entire point of empathy. To me this second process is much closer to sympathy than to empathy. In that sense it's fairly easy for me to empathize with Israelis. I didn't grow up in a fascistic society but I did grow up in a conservative one, so their experiences are obviously heightened when compared to mine, but I understand a lot of the processes, they're similar to things I remember, even to things I used to think before I got better politics. It is way harder for me to put myself in the place of a Palestinian, their experience of the world is so wildly different from anything I've experienced.
Seems fair to me. I’m also not seeing posters saying Israel is 100% to blame either.
Regardless of the fault or mechanisms involved, I still feel even the most pro-Palestinian folks in the thread absolutely concede that Hamas are absolutely culpable in perpetuating this conflict. Maybe it’s 70-30, maybe it’s 60-40, maybe 80-20 or whatever but nobody is wholly dumping this on Israeli’s door exclusively.
I’m quite an empathetic guy all round, I can’t really envisage what Palestinian life is like. I can get myself into the headspace of say, what a Ukrainian is vaguely feeling, sure war is a commonality but there’s a whole slew of differences. You’ve got a country, you’ve got prospects, if you weather a shit, shit storm well you’ve still got those things.
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On March 05 2024 09:32 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2024 08:01 Nebuchad wrote:On March 05 2024 07:29 JimmiC wrote:On March 05 2024 07:15 Nebuchad wrote:On March 05 2024 06:33 JimmiC wrote:On March 05 2024 06:09 Nebuchad wrote:On March 05 2024 05:15 JimmiC wrote:On March 05 2024 02:16 Nebuchad wrote:Rockets check for your capacity to launch rockets, not your willingness to launch them. Hamas funding has increased especially under policy of Netanyahou letting it happen, that's not a good measure for the question I asked though How about opinion polls? Pro Armed action 2015 42% 2016 35% 2017 44% 2020 41% 2021 48% 2022 51% In 2019 there was a explosive device attack and they asked citizens of the west bank and Gaza if they supported it. If settlements where the main issue of the Palestinians you would expect WB to be more extreme than Gaza. Support, WB 49% Gaza 80 % Would a new Infitada advance Palestinian Quest to statehood. WB 36% G 44 % All Palestinians do you support or oppose suicide bombings. 2013 support 62% 1997 28% (side note not a straight line and very high (80+% in 2001) Do rocket attack Help or Harm WB help 35% harm 29% Gaza help 45% harm 30% In 2006 should Hamas continue violent operations in Israel WB continue 34% WB 46% Big change to 2019 no? Do you support Knife attacks? WB Strong support 18% Support 24% Gaza Strong support 37% Support 42% Edit: Also I agree that Bibi wanted and helped to make relations worse. He and Hamas agree that a two state solution won't work. So the main one that seems to have changed a lot from 2000 is this one right? "All Palestinians do you support or oppose suicide bombings. 2013 support 62% 1997 28%" But you undercut it immediately with this "(side note not a straight line and very high (80+% in 2001)" The rest appears to be within 10% change unless I've missed something. So no I'm not getting a sense from these polls that there's an exponential amount of extremism in Palestine compared to 2004. I'm also noticing stuff like 62% of Palestinians support suicide bombings in 2013, but 42% of Palestinians support armed action in 2015, so there appears to be at the very least methodology questions with regard to these polls. I did try and find some information about how many people were in the militant wing of the PLO or in the Al-Aqsa Brigades btw, but after like 10 minutes I came up short. I don't really know the answer to the question. You can also keep in mind that during some of these periods, peace seemed much more likely than today, for example after Rabin's murder it would make sense that at least some amount of people who were okay with a peaceful resolution got disillusioned with that path and turned to violent resistance. The other thing that I have a lot of trouble envisioning is exactly what Iran is telling them. I'm setting the scene, I'm a Palestinian but not an extremist, everything that Israel has been doing hasn't turned me. But then Iran comes on the scene and they finally make me an extremist. How? What did they get me to see that all those dead children didn't get me to see before? I can't really disagree with your post too much as the evidence I have as you say is not so compelling as to change minds, and I undercut my one on purpose as not to cherry pick to much data on top of my existing bias. I think you really see Iran's influence when you look at the differences between Gaza and the Westbank, they took control of all the school and taught hate among other massive hateful propaganda campaigns. And we all know propaganda works. Your last sentence is shitty. But the reality is the butcher of Khan Younis and many other Hamas "freedom fighters" killed a shit ton of Palestinians. Putting your military assets under day cares sure does not help the children. And it is not hard to draw a line between their atrocities and the current war. There is no question that they purposefully started it. Okay, they take control of all the schools and teach hate, but, like, what? What are they saying exactly? What could possibly be more compelling as propaganda to a Palestinian audience than what Israel is actually doing? Look, I get that you're mainly arguing because it's me and GH presenting the point, and otherwise you wouldn't, so that's why I'm not getting too mad at you. But surely you have to realize how dehumanizing this line of argument is. When a group of humans is so deeply wronged by another group of humans, obviously that's going to be the main factor in the development of extremism. It's not difficult to understand why Palestinians are prone to hate Israelis, or why Israelis are prone to hate Palestinians, it's an extremely logical human reaction to their set of circumstances. When I watched the beginning of The Boys earlier tonight I didn't wonder what was the main factor in Hughie radicalizing, I could tell it wasn't Butcher. I understand that is your fantasy, partly due to perhaps narcissism. But the main reason I'm arguing is because the situation is actually a lot more complicated than Israel is evil and everything is their fault, with a touch of I hate bullies and what you and others are doing to Cerebrate1 disturbs me. I don't find that you personally have risen to the bar of a person that I would describe as antisemitic. But I do believe that you have read a lot of information that people who are antisemitic have written. I also believe in the era of social media that people who get their information that way only end up getting one side of the story (any story) which is polarizing society on all sorts of issue. A big bone of contention we have, is you believe only Israel is oppressing the Palestinians, and I agree with the Palestinians that it is both Hamas and Israel. If this thread was reversed (as it is on different spots on the internet) I would appear to be one sided in the other direction to everyone who was over the top pro-Israel. I bet if you asked Cerebrate1 if he thought I was pro-Israel he would say that I am for this thread but not overall, I mean I've been clear that I disagree with their choice to invade by the ground and many other things. I actually do no understand why you can have so much empathy for just one side of this conflict. The amount of awful that both have gone through is unique which is saying lots in the world we live in. And that awful is often from countries and people that are not either Israel or Palestine. It is countries like Russia, Iran, UK, Germany, the US, Lebanon, Syria, the list goes on and on. It is obviously not going to happen but it really too bad both sides do not realize that they are being fucked by everyone from the outside and work together. Palestinians within Israel's borders arguably have it better than Muslim's anywhere else in the middle east. (try being a Sunni or a Shia in the wrong place, or the few Kurds lucky enough to be refugee's there). Inarguably the Muslim women have it better. Not that there is any great wisdom in saying that getting along is better for everyone than killing each other. You may hate bullies but clearly you don't hate bullying, as the entirety of your contribution to this forum for years has shown, so it's not very clear why you hate bullies. In terms of the facts on the ground, it is true that Israel has occupied Palestine for decades, it is true that Israel is progressively taking more and more of their land, and it is true that Israel is engaging in violence to maintain that system, which results in a large amount of deaths over the years. None of that is in dispute. I see those facts and I conclude, that's probably why Palestinians tend to have extremely negative views regarding Israel, and those views radicalize them. You dislike that because it's too simple and too "Israel is evil". Okay, but I don't really see why I'm supposed to care. You will notice that I don't have any trouble talking about how the violence that Palestine engages in in response to the occupation that they're experiencing, the deaths that they're causing and the war crimes that they commit, is also the main factor in the radicalization of the Israeli population against Palestinians. But here I'm not getting any resistance, nobody thinks that it's too simple or too much of a "Palestine is evil" thing to say. In both cases it's just a bunch of facts about what's happening, there's no moral judgement going on. You can apply a moral judgement later, and obviously I do, but that's only secondary. When it comes to empathy, I seriously think that when I empathize with people I'm not doing the same thing that you're doing. Empathy to me starts from the understanding that other people have other perspectives. And then once you've acknowledged those perspectives, you can put yourself in their place and understand how they get to their conclusions. I get the feeling that people (and perhaps you as well) often empathize with others by putting themselves in the person's place and wondering what they would do if they were that person. But they aren't that person, that's almost the entire point of empathy. To me this second process is much closer to sympathy than to empathy. In that sense it's fairly easy for me to empathize with Israelis. I didn't grow up in a fascistic society but I did grow up in a conservative one, so their experiences are obviously heightened when compared to mine, but I understand a lot of the processes, they're similar to things I remember, even to things I used to think before I got better politics. It is way harder for me to put myself in the place of a Palestinian, their experience of the world is so wildly different from anything I've experienced. Seems fair to me. I’m also not seeing posters saying Israel is 100% to blame either. Regardless of the fault or mechanisms involved, I still feel even the most pro-Palestinian folks in the thread absolutely concede that Hamas are absolutely culpable in perpetuating this conflict. Maybe it’s 70-30, maybe it’s 60-40, maybe 80-20 or whatever but nobody is wholly dumping this on Israeli’s door exclusively. I’m quite an empathetic guy all round, I can’t really envisage what Palestinian life is like. I can get myself into the headspace of say, what a Ukrainian is vaguely feeling, sure war is a commonality but there’s a whole slew of differences. You’ve got a country, you’ve got prospects, if you weather a shit, shit storm well you’ve still got those things.
Yeah I agree with all of that. I think Shaun did a good job of describing the circle of violence that we're talking about here in his video: there is a circle of violence that begets more violence, and that circle is responsible for most of the hatred. So in that sense the responsibility is something close to 50-50. But it would be wrong to only consider this circle when we analyze the situation, as we know that the root of the violence is not some obscure forgotten past quarrel, but instead the ongoing colonization project of Palestine by Israel. Because of this asymmetry, Palestinians can only end the violence by surrendering, and accepting an unjust fate at the hands of an oppressor, while Israel has much more leeway to create a fair situation, and its government is (unsurprisingly) refusing to do it.
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On March 05 2024 06:43 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2024 06:02 stilt wrote:On March 05 2024 05:01 JimmiC wrote:On March 05 2024 02:23 stilt wrote:On March 04 2024 06:34 JimmiC wrote:On March 04 2024 06:29 stilt wrote:On March 02 2024 18:58 RvB wrote:On March 02 2024 12:56 Salazarz wrote:On March 02 2024 05:29 JimmiC wrote:On March 02 2024 05:22 WombaT wrote:
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Sure but you seem to consistently handwave Israeli awfulness with ‘well this sucks what do you expect?’ way more easily than stuff on the Palestinian side of the ledger. No one posts the Palestinian civilians saying stuff because no one here hates the Palestinian civilians, if they did I would hand wave it as well. You have personally brought up Palestinians saying stuff to justify your positions in this thread multiple times. That aside, the real issue isn't that there is a bunch of hateful Israelis being, well, hateful. Most of us here already knew that Israelis are racist against Palestinians so it's not much of a surprise. The issue is that Israeli state actors -- including, apparently, high rank military commanders -- are complicit in blockades of absolutely vital aid. Not even because of some 'there might be guns in there!' excuse or whatever they've used to openly block aid deliveries in the past, but simply because they really just don't give a fuck about how many Gazans will starve and die, and they don't even care enough to pretend and lie about it. Depriving civilians of vital supplies is a war crime, by the way. You know, that thing you keep arguing Israel totally doesn't do. The article reads that way. Of course it does not mention that the IDF and police have clashed with the protestors before that [1] [2] [3] [4] and have continued to clash [5]. The protestors from the WP article were removed the day after [6]. The police and IDF have also continued facilitating aid to the strip [7]. It doesn't change the fact the famine is due to israeli blocus which include bombing and shoting at trucks while blocking it during inspection according to humanitarians which operate there. Humanitarians which israeli successfully villified to the point the support from western country ceased. There is only one responsible of this famine, negationism is bad. Most of the aid is coming through Egypt and is being stopped because the Egyptians don't want to die or have their trucks destroyed by Hamas and the other gangs they control. Why do you keep ignoring the reality of the situation? All this info is everywhere including this thread. Israeli makes inspection on every trucks which goes on gaza including the ones which goes in Egypt, the fall of law and order is both due to starvation and what the what you call "war". The bombing and shooting by israeli force has been documented as well. Same as the cut of water since october. Multiples articles including ones I posted on this thread point those facts. Their sources being humanitarian from amnesty and wfn, a bit more serious than your "armed gangs suddently appear so no humanitarian can come". You have obvious ideological reasons to deny it, at least you deny it contrary to some who are already assuming it. I guess the truth is bothering you but really the "let's make people starve and then justify this by how they're acting while starved" is a nice raisonning for genocide. The famine didn't appear because of your armed gangs, it appeared because since 5 months there are not enough trucks.Those guardians, Associates Press and france24 links have been posted earlier. I agree with you that the over arching reason for the Famine is the war that Hamas, the government of Gaza, started with their heinous attack of Israeli citizens including women and children as well as the additional war crimes of taking hostages of Israeli citizens including women and children. But if were talking about why the trucks have slowed down to the point of famine, so short term reasons, it is not the Israeli inspections as those have happened the entire time, it is the unwillingness of the Egyptian trucks to currently enter. Nice, at least you agree there is a famine and during those times, do you agree this generates a collapse of the law and order ? Especially when the ever loving israelis would obviously kill any armed palestinian which could protect these convoys. Like any concentration camp, we have here the law of the strongest. Except your point is "the collapse of law and order" caused famine which caused "the collapse of law and order" and so on, in the end, that's all their faults, this loop doesn't work if you don't put a external cause to begin it like the israeli blocus. This article counters pretty much your loose interpretation and assessement on "it's not israelis inspections because they happened the entiere time" : https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231222-gaza-bound-aid-trucks-endure-grueling-wait-at-borderIt was the situation in december by the way. Bombing trucks and inspection has considerably slowed the aid, it's pretty hard to deny it. Another proof come from this article that since the very beginning the aid has been reduced, it was during the time some were justifying the bombing of ambulances. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/19/us-food-medicine-aid-gaza-un-famine-warnings-israelSo, before the collapse of law and order the aid was severely hamped. The israeli attack on association and the suspension of funding which resulted of it is another aspect of the israeli blocus. Same goes for amnesty, here is a publication before the so called "stampede" or let's call it for what it was, the slaughter. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/02/israel-defying-icj-ruling-to-prevent-genocide-by-failing-to-allow-adequate-humanitarian-aid-to-reach-gaza/As far as the north of situation in the north of gaza which is now unreachable, it is possible to circumvent the south and directly giving aid there if Israël opens his passage there but they prefer to hamper UN organization : https://www.voanews.com/a/why-isn-t-desperately-needed-aid-reaching-palestinians-in-gaza-/7499319.htmlSo no we disagree as you are denying facts. It is the armed Palestinians, better known as Hamas who is attacking the trucks. The collapse of law and order is directly due to the Hamas attack. These are not dumb people, they knew what was coming back after what they did, and basically every country in the world would have responded with force. Yes they attacked ambulances, and it has been shown that Hamas used them to transport not just hostages but also fighters and weapons. Are you aware that because of that the war crime is Hamas and no Israel? You are not allowed to attack hospitals, schools, ambulances and so on, UNLESS they are using them for war. And of course I think more Aid should be going in, it is not like I think Israel is perfect, they are far from it, especially under current leadership. The big difference between me and you is that I don't think it is 100% Israeli's fault, I see Hamas as clearly much worse than Israel is a whole host of ways. Hamas literally wants as many Palestinians to suffer and die as possible as that helps their cause. Israelis are willing to have Palestinians die and suffer to destroy Hamas. I disagree with both approaches but it is also clear which one is worse and it is magnitudes worse. I mean Israel wants none of its people to die and suffer. And I'm just talking about in Gaza right now. Hamas wants to kill every Israeli, women and children not to mention all the religions too. Yes even the Muslims because they are collaborators.
I suppose you're on the conservative spectrum, at least you disagree with them, I guess that's great.
Your main point was the aid couldn't come because of armed gang and not from the israeli blocus.
You now bring justification to it, that's shifting the point.
The "hamas is attacking trucks fact" is not what is reported in those articles which state humanitarian/un sources. Maybe those mobs has hamas elements but you have to admit even if they weren't, the mobs will exist, whether they'll use rocks or anything, the condition induced by starvation create them anyway. For example the israeli shooting didn't mention hamas members in their report, just a threatening mob.
At some point the chaos has to be too much for any social cohesion to remain including the one of the hamas units which will form bands whose only preocupation is to survive.
As for the ambulances...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/10/im-so-scared-please-come-hind-rajab-six-found-dead-in-gaza-12-days-after-cry-for-help
They weren't hamas member nor they were hostages but red crescent member trying to rescue a little girl who was obstructed by her family's bodies. All of them ended up being murdered by Tsahal. Apparently that's war and "war is horrible" sure but then it appears the targeting of ambulance is pretty common.
The fact there is a fog of war doesn't help with no independant journalist around, who knows many stories and crimes aren't recorded ? Maybe none, surely a lot.
When I brought the ambulance case, it was to show it was credible tsahal shooted/bombed aids trucks in the past as they have done it to ambulances including at the very-very-very least one free of hamas militants and hostages.
The last point you're making is about the value of palestinian life by Hamas. I won't speculate too much on it, that might be true or not... It is definetly used for the hezbollah which according to a southern christian lebanese friend is bs. But as he hates israel anyway that's not the best source, that said, western sources about it might be biaised as well.
And indeed, regardless of this particular case, this argument is too much used to justify crime or war as it implies "our enemy doesn't respect life so why should we do ?" To be honest, I have reasonned as such in the past and maybe I will do again in the future, doesn't change the fact it is something to avoid, like if you're using this kind of justification, that's very likely the cause or at least the way your cause is defended is wrong.
Finally, about your statement about the degree of israel responsability as a whole, the subject has been debated over and over in this thread, I have already stated my views on previous posts.
But from a very practical point of view, the one which should bear the most responsibility of its action on a asymetric conflict between two parties is the one with overwhelming force as he is the one with the most options at its disposition.
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Northern Ireland22953 Posts
It’s truly remarkable how much benefit of the doubt you extend to Israel, in literally every realm humanly possible.
Luckily for us you did unconscious bias training so it can’t possibly be that
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On March 04 2024 17:06 Nebuchad wrote:
There's also no indication of what was so wrong with GH's post specifically, as the post doesn't seem to address his point in any real fashion.
I apologize that my post wasn't as clear and direct as I usually am. I did type that one off rather quickly as I had somewhere to be.
To clarify: he seemed to suggest that Hamas was not responsible for radicalizing Gazans (hopefully I don't have to post antisemitic pages in childrens school books or show clips of school plays where Palestinian children act out shooting Israelis to demonstrate the inaccuracy of this idea.) He said that it was actually Israeli oppression that causes this radicalization.
To this I replied by pointing out that Israel has had very limited involvement in Gaza and thus little opportunity to cause any of the various problems Gazans have faced in the past couple decades. In fact, even Hamas itself doesn't even claim Israeli oppression of Gaza as cacus belli for the various wars it has entered into. Their claimed goal for Oct 7 was to "stop Israeli aggression at Al Asqa Mosque [in Jerusalem]" (which thousands of Muslims have prayed at in peace before and after Oct 7 btw). Their brigades for Oct 7 were also named after that mosque. If Gazans were so oppressed by Israel directly, why do they constantly feel the need to point to things outside of Gaza as justification for their actions? Wouldn't it be more compelling to say "Israel is currently doing X bad thing to us Gazans, so we need to stop them"?
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On March 05 2024 13:54 Cerebrate1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2024 17:06 Nebuchad wrote:
There's also no indication of what was so wrong with GH's post specifically, as the post doesn't seem to address his point in any real fashion. I apologize that my post wasn't as clear and direct as I usually am. I did type that one off rather quickly as I had somewhere to be. To clarify: he seemed to suggest that Hamas was not responsible for radicalizing Gazans (hopefully I don't have to post antisemitic pages in childrens school books or show clips of school plays where Palestinian children act out shooting Israelis to demonstrate the inaccuracy of this idea.) He said that it was actually Israeli oppression that causes this radicalization. To this I replied by pointing out that Israel has had very limited involvement in Gaza and thus little opportunity to cause any of the various problems Gazans have faced in the past couple decades. In fact, even Hamas itself doesn't even claim Israeli oppression of Gaza as cacus belli for the various wars it has entered into. Their claimed goal for Oct 7 was to "stop Israeli aggression at Al Asqa Mosque [in Jerusalem]" (which thousands of Muslims have prayed at in peace before and after Oct 7 btw). Their brigades for Oct 7 were also named after that mosque. If Gazans were so oppressed by Israel directly, why do they constantly feel the need to point to things outside of Gaza as justification for their actions? Wouldn't it be more compelling to say "Israel is currently doing X bad thing to us Gazans, so we need to stop them"?
I'm saying Israel has a lot better odds at reducing the radicalization of Palestinians by focusing on not brutally subjugating them and/or illegally occupying their land.
It's just straight up dehumanizing to pretend that the open air prison of Gaza was autonomy in any meaningful sense of the word.
It's part of why it's preposterous to think Israel has a plan for "the day after" that isn't brutally subjugating Palestinians. As we see from Cerebrate here, people can easily rationalize such barbarity and even laude it.
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On March 04 2024 16:03 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2024 13:36 Cerebrate1 wrote:On March 04 2024 12:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 04 2024 12:12 Cerebrate1 wrote:On March 04 2024 05:39 Gorsameth wrote:On March 04 2024 04:20 JimmiC wrote:On March 04 2024 02:49 Gorsameth wrote:On March 04 2024 02:07 JimmiC wrote:
Do people here think the Israelis wanting a list of the names of the hostages that are still alive as unreasonable? If so why? A very reasonable demand, but also understandable why Hamas doesn't want to give that if the news is, as somewhat expected I believe, bad. Because the possibility of the missing hostages being alive is a serious bargaining ship. So why your earlier completely negative comment about Israel when it is your opinion that Israel is asking for something reasonable and Hamas wants to negotiate in bad faith because the truth is bad for them? Israel has made it very clear the only acceptable outcome of this conflict is the complete destruction of Hamas. Its an understandable position from the point of Israel but you can't have a negotiation with an opponent when your position is that no matter what, they have to die. And yes Hamas wants to kill Israel but that isn't their position in these negotiations, they will settle for Israel withdrawing for now. Israel has made it clear they won't settle for anything less. Nothing Hamas can do, outside of shooting themselves in the head, is going to get Israel to stop. Hamas has basically no agency in whether or not a cease fire happens, if we assume that "shoot yourself" is not a reasonable demand to make of someone. I want this war to end, I want the Palestinian people to stop being stuck in the middle of a warzone and getting slaughtered while their houses and infrastructure are bombed and their land is taken from them. And that is 100% on Israel, because they know that if they let up now and allow a cease fire there is going to be tremendous pressure on them to keep that cease fire going and not assault Rafah. Their only concern is kicking out Hamas and they don't care that they have to demolish a city filled to bursting with refugees that they (Israel) themselves drove there when they destroyed the rest of Gaza. To come back to your question. No Israel is not being reasonable. Yes asking for the hostage names is reasonable, but I highly highly doubt that that is all Israel is demanding in exchange for a cease fire because, again, they have made it very clear publicly that they will not stop until Hamas is gone. Destruction of an organization is not the same thing as the death of all of it's members. When Germany and Japan surrendered in WW2, the vast majority of participating members of their regimes were not executed. However their organizations were dismantled and replaced (with organizations that served their people better in the long run.) That's what Israel wants to do. Dismantle and replace Hamas with a government that won't continue to radicalize it's population and constantly start up pointless brutal wars. Hamas has to be more radical than the Nazis and Imperial Japan to not see surrender as an option. The belief that the government of Hamas is what "radicalized the population" and not Israel's illegal occupation of Palestine and Israel's brutal subjugation of Palestinians is part of why so many people rightfully have so little faith in Israel's "day after plan". If Israel wants to dismantle and replace a government with one that won't radicalize Palestinians they can focus on their own. There are so many things wrong with this post that I don't have time to deal with it all. But on one foot, I'll point out that the one place on Earth where Palestinians have the most self governance, the most self determination, the closest thing to a country they have ever had, was Gaza from 2005. Israel unilaterally removed their entire military, forcefully evicted all Israeli settlers, and pulled all the way back to 1967 borders (all the things people claim will solve all the problems). Instead of creating a utopia though, it led to, well, all the violence and destruction that has come out of Gaza since, including some 5 wars, and the most radicalized group of Palestinians around. Yet, in terms of oppression and causes for their violence, Hamas always points to things happening outside of Gaza as justification for their acts. (Presumably because a restriction on weapon imports wasn't a great rallying cry.) Gaza wasn't a state, it was the equivalent of a bantustan in South Africa, and served a similar purpose. A bantustan isn't autonomy. It's a tried and tested way for an apartheid regime to fake giving control to the regional power, while de facto maintaining full control. Gaza had self-governance, but had no power over its imports or exports, and was thus entirely dependent on Israel for its economy. It also wasn't recognized by the UN, because US keeps vetoing that on behalf of Israel, meaning Gazans couldn't really travel outside Gaza except with Israel's explicit permission, they couldn't effectively determine their own foreign policy. Unsurprisingly, just as in South Africa, the creation of a bantustan didn't lead to peace.
Gaza is not a full fledged state for a few technical reasons, but for most intents and purposes (at least regarding creating the living conditions for locals and the like), acts like one.
Hamas had complete direct control of all government processes within Gaza (besides the ones they let the UNRWA pay for). Israel didn't have officials in Gaza telling people what to do, nor do they have the heads of Hamas in their pockets like SA had with the Bantustans. Israel doesn't take taxes in Gaza (unless you count income tax on the handful of workers who worked in Israel). In fact, Israel gives tax revenue to the PA, who give some to Hamas to run their government.
Regarding foreign affairs, they have Observer State status at the UN, which is equivalent to what the Vatican has. The Pope manages foreign affairs just fine without being able to vote on silly UN resolutions, and so do Palestinians. Check out all the countries they have embassies or missions at, because it's significantly more than a lot of other nations around the world have: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_diplomatic_missions_of_the_State_of_Palestine
So really, the main thing Israel had influence over was imports and exports. You can't fault Israel for having control of goods entering and exiting their own borders as all countries do that. And in fact, people don't seem to fault Egypt for having those exact same controls on their border to Gaza. You could critique Israel for filtering imports at sea, but they let pretty much everything through by 2023 (heck, they apparently didn't even do a very good job and stopping full on guns from getting through based on how well stocked every neighborhood seems to be in Gaza). Gazans had ipads and the like, it's not like nothing was getting through.
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On March 05 2024 14:38 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2024 13:54 Cerebrate1 wrote:On March 04 2024 17:06 Nebuchad wrote:
There's also no indication of what was so wrong with GH's post specifically, as the post doesn't seem to address his point in any real fashion. I apologize that my post wasn't as clear and direct as I usually am. I did type that one off rather quickly as I had somewhere to be. To clarify: he seemed to suggest that Hamas was not responsible for radicalizing Gazans (hopefully I don't have to post antisemitic pages in childrens school books or show clips of school plays where Palestinian children act out shooting Israelis to demonstrate the inaccuracy of this idea.) He said that it was actually Israeli oppression that causes this radicalization. To this I replied by pointing out that Israel has had very limited involvement in Gaza and thus little opportunity to cause any of the various problems Gazans have faced in the past couple decades. In fact, even Hamas itself doesn't even claim Israeli oppression of Gaza as cacus belli for the various wars it has entered into. Their claimed goal for Oct 7 was to "stop Israeli aggression at Al Asqa Mosque [in Jerusalem]" (which thousands of Muslims have prayed at in peace before and after Oct 7 btw). Their brigades for Oct 7 were also named after that mosque. If Gazans were so oppressed by Israel directly, why do they constantly feel the need to point to things outside of Gaza as justification for their actions? Wouldn't it be more compelling to say "Israel is currently doing X bad thing to us Gazans, so we need to stop them"? I'm saying Israel has a lot better odds at reducing the radicalization of Palestinians by focusing on not brutally subjugating them and/or illegally occupying their land. It's just straight up dehumanizing to pretend that the open air prison of Gaza was autonomy in any meaningful sense of the word. It's part of why it's preposterous to think Israel has a plan for "the day after" that isn't brutally subjugating Palestinians. As we see from Cerebrate here, people can easily rationalize such barbarity and even laude it.
I don't see any "barbarity" I'm "lauding" in my actual post you are responding to, but maybe you were reading a different article and then just switched tabs and got mixed up. Feel free to directly quote a line I said otherwise if you disagree.
I'm pointing out that "occupying" is not the clear cut source of this conflict that you make it out to be. We have a two decades expiriment of two groups of Palestinians to pull conclusions from. The West Bank is the place that Israel has been sticking around to do all those bad things you are probably imagining, yet zero wars have been fought there since 1967. All the wars (and the death and destruction that resulted) have been started by the people who have no settlers living next door and who already have back all the land they theoretically want. And they specifically started having those wars after Israel pulled out.
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On March 05 2024 15:23 Cerebrate1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2024 14:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 05 2024 13:54 Cerebrate1 wrote:On March 04 2024 17:06 Nebuchad wrote:
There's also no indication of what was so wrong with GH's post specifically, as the post doesn't seem to address his point in any real fashion. I apologize that my post wasn't as clear and direct as I usually am. I did type that one off rather quickly as I had somewhere to be. To clarify: he seemed to suggest that Hamas was not responsible for radicalizing Gazans (hopefully I don't have to post antisemitic pages in childrens school books or show clips of school plays where Palestinian children act out shooting Israelis to demonstrate the inaccuracy of this idea.) He said that it was actually Israeli oppression that causes this radicalization. To this I replied by pointing out that Israel has had very limited involvement in Gaza and thus little opportunity to cause any of the various problems Gazans have faced in the past couple decades. In fact, even Hamas itself doesn't even claim Israeli oppression of Gaza as cacus belli for the various wars it has entered into. Their claimed goal for Oct 7 was to "stop Israeli aggression at Al Asqa Mosque [in Jerusalem]" (which thousands of Muslims have prayed at in peace before and after Oct 7 btw). Their brigades for Oct 7 were also named after that mosque. If Gazans were so oppressed by Israel directly, why do they constantly feel the need to point to things outside of Gaza as justification for their actions? Wouldn't it be more compelling to say "Israel is currently doing X bad thing to us Gazans, so we need to stop them"? I'm saying Israel has a lot better odds at reducing the radicalization of Palestinians by focusing on not brutally subjugating them and/or illegally occupying their land. It's just straight up dehumanizing to pretend that the open air prison of Gaza was autonomy in any meaningful sense of the word. It's part of why it's preposterous to think Israel has a plan for "the day after" that isn't brutally subjugating Palestinians. As we see from Cerebrate here, people can easily rationalize such barbarity and even laude it. I don't see any "barbarity" I'm "lauding" in my actual post you are responding to, but maybe you were reading a different article and then just switched tabs and got mixed up. Feel free to directly quote a line I said otherwise if you disagree. I'm pointing out that "occupying" is not the clear cut source of this conflict that you make it out to be. We have a two decades expiriment of two groups of Palestinians to pull conclusions from. The West Bank is the place that Israel has been sticking around to do all those bad things you are probably imagining, yet zero wars have been fought there since 1967. All the wars (and the death and destruction that resulted) have been started by the people who have no settlers living next door and who already have back all the land they theoretically want. And they specifically started having those wars after Israel pulled out.
That you "don't see" it is part of the point (and disingenuous imo). It also reflects poorly on the prospects of Israel's "day after" plan.
You arguing Gaza before Oct 7 was "all the things people claim will solve all the problems" indicates to me that we're observing different realities.
The closest useful analog I can think of at the moment would be when xDaunt and others argued that racism wasn't a significant problem in the US after/because Obama was elected. It's rooted in a dehumanizing paternalism meant to protect a society built on subjugation and dismiss the barbaric consequences of such a society as the fault of those it oppresses while being ostensibly oblivious to their oppression.
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On March 05 2024 11:27 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2024 10:35 stilt wrote:On March 05 2024 06:43 JimmiC wrote:On March 05 2024 06:02 stilt wrote:On March 05 2024 05:01 JimmiC wrote:On March 05 2024 02:23 stilt wrote:On March 04 2024 06:34 JimmiC wrote:On March 04 2024 06:29 stilt wrote:On March 02 2024 18:58 RvB wrote:On March 02 2024 12:56 Salazarz wrote:
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You have personally brought up Palestinians saying stuff to justify your positions in this thread multiple times.
That aside, the real issue isn't that there is a bunch of hateful Israelis being, well, hateful. Most of us here already knew that Israelis are racist against Palestinians so it's not much of a surprise. The issue is that Israeli state actors -- including, apparently, high rank military commanders -- are complicit in blockades of absolutely vital aid. Not even because of some 'there might be guns in there!' excuse or whatever they've used to openly block aid deliveries in the past, but simply because they really just don't give a fuck about how many Gazans will starve and die, and they don't even care enough to pretend and lie about it. Depriving civilians of vital supplies is a war crime, by the way. You know, that thing you keep arguing Israel totally doesn't do. The article reads that way. Of course it does not mention that the IDF and police have clashed with the protestors before that [1] [2] [3] [4] and have continued to clash [5]. The protestors from the WP article were removed the day after [6]. The police and IDF have also continued facilitating aid to the strip [7]. It doesn't change the fact the famine is due to israeli blocus which include bombing and shoting at trucks while blocking it during inspection according to humanitarians which operate there. Humanitarians which israeli successfully villified to the point the support from western country ceased. There is only one responsible of this famine, negationism is bad. Most of the aid is coming through Egypt and is being stopped because the Egyptians don't want to die or have their trucks destroyed by Hamas and the other gangs they control. Why do you keep ignoring the reality of the situation? All this info is everywhere including this thread. Israeli makes inspection on every trucks which goes on gaza including the ones which goes in Egypt, the fall of law and order is both due to starvation and what the what you call "war". The bombing and shooting by israeli force has been documented as well. Same as the cut of water since october. Multiples articles including ones I posted on this thread point those facts. Their sources being humanitarian from amnesty and wfn, a bit more serious than your "armed gangs suddently appear so no humanitarian can come". You have obvious ideological reasons to deny it, at least you deny it contrary to some who are already assuming it. I guess the truth is bothering you but really the "let's make people starve and then justify this by how they're acting while starved" is a nice raisonning for genocide. The famine didn't appear because of your armed gangs, it appeared because since 5 months there are not enough trucks.Those guardians, Associates Press and france24 links have been posted earlier. I agree with you that the over arching reason for the Famine is the war that Hamas, the government of Gaza, started with their heinous attack of Israeli citizens including women and children as well as the additional war crimes of taking hostages of Israeli citizens including women and children. But if were talking about why the trucks have slowed down to the point of famine, so short term reasons, it is not the Israeli inspections as those have happened the entire time, it is the unwillingness of the Egyptian trucks to currently enter. Nice, at least you agree there is a famine and during those times, do you agree this generates a collapse of the law and order ? Especially when the ever loving israelis would obviously kill any armed palestinian which could protect these convoys. Like any concentration camp, we have here the law of the strongest. Except your point is "the collapse of law and order" caused famine which caused "the collapse of law and order" and so on, in the end, that's all their faults, this loop doesn't work if you don't put a external cause to begin it like the israeli blocus. This article counters pretty much your loose interpretation and assessement on "it's not israelis inspections because they happened the entiere time" : https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231222-gaza-bound-aid-trucks-endure-grueling-wait-at-borderIt was the situation in december by the way. Bombing trucks and inspection has considerably slowed the aid, it's pretty hard to deny it. Another proof come from this article that since the very beginning the aid has been reduced, it was during the time some were justifying the bombing of ambulances. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/19/us-food-medicine-aid-gaza-un-famine-warnings-israelSo, before the collapse of law and order the aid was severely hamped. The israeli attack on association and the suspension of funding which resulted of it is another aspect of the israeli blocus. Same goes for amnesty, here is a publication before the so called "stampede" or let's call it for what it was, the slaughter. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/02/israel-defying-icj-ruling-to-prevent-genocide-by-failing-to-allow-adequate-humanitarian-aid-to-reach-gaza/As far as the north of situation in the north of gaza which is now unreachable, it is possible to circumvent the south and directly giving aid there if Israël opens his passage there but they prefer to hamper UN organization : https://www.voanews.com/a/why-isn-t-desperately-needed-aid-reaching-palestinians-in-gaza-/7499319.htmlSo no we disagree as you are denying facts. It is the armed Palestinians, better known as Hamas who is attacking the trucks. The collapse of law and order is directly due to the Hamas attack. These are not dumb people, they knew what was coming back after what they did, and basically every country in the world would have responded with force. Yes they attacked ambulances, and it has been shown that Hamas used them to transport not just hostages but also fighters and weapons. Are you aware that because of that the war crime is Hamas and no Israel? You are not allowed to attack hospitals, schools, ambulances and so on, UNLESS they are using them for war. And of course I think more Aid should be going in, it is not like I think Israel is perfect, they are far from it, especially under current leadership. The big difference between me and you is that I don't think it is 100% Israeli's fault, I see Hamas as clearly much worse than Israel is a whole host of ways. Hamas literally wants as many Palestinians to suffer and die as possible as that helps their cause. Israelis are willing to have Palestinians die and suffer to destroy Hamas. I disagree with both approaches but it is also clear which one is worse and it is magnitudes worse. I mean Israel wants none of its people to die and suffer. And I'm just talking about in Gaza right now. Hamas wants to kill every Israeli, women and children not to mention all the religions too. Yes even the Muslims because they are collaborators. I suppose you're on the conservative spectrum, at least you disagree with them, I guess that's great. Your main point was the aid couldn't come because of armed gang and not from the israeli blocus. You now bring justification to it, that's shifting the point. The "hamas is attacking trucks fact" is not what is reported in those articles which state humanitarian/un sources. Maybe those mobs has hamas elements but you have to admit even if they weren't, the mobs will exist, whether they'll use rocks or anything, the condition induced by starvation create them anyway. For example the israeli shooting didn't mention hamas members in their report, just a threatening mob. At some point the chaos has to be too much for any social cohesion to remain including the one of the hamas units which will form bands whose only preocupation is to survive. As for the ambulances... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/10/im-so-scared-please-come-hind-rajab-six-found-dead-in-gaza-12-days-after-cry-for-helpThey weren't hamas member nor they were hostages but red crescent member trying to rescue a little girl who was obstructed by her family's bodies. All of them ended up being murdered by Tsahal. Apparently that's war and "war is horrible" sure but then it appears the targeting of ambulance is pretty common. The fact there is a fog of war doesn't help with no independant journalist around, who knows many stories and crimes aren't recorded ? Maybe none, surely a lot. When I brought the ambulance case, it was to show it was credible tsahal shooted/bombed aids trucks in the past as they have done it to ambulances including at the very-very-very least one free of hamas militants and hostages. The last point you're making is about the value of palestinian life by Hamas. I won't speculate too much on it, that might be true or not... It is definetly used for the hezbollah which according to a southern christian lebanese friend is bs. But as he hates israel anyway that's not the best source, that said, western sources about it might be biaised as well. And indeed, regardless of this particular case, this argument is too much used to justify crime or war as it implies "our enemy doesn't respect life so why should we do ?" To be honest, I have reasonned as such in the past and maybe I will do again in the future, doesn't change the fact it is something to avoid, like if you're using this kind of justification, that's very likely the cause or at least the way your cause is defended is wrong. Finally, about your statement about the degree of israel responsability as a whole, the subject has been debated over and over in this thread, I have already stated my views on previous point. But from a very practical point of view, the one which should bear the most responsibility of its action on a asymetric conflict between two parties is the one with overwhelming force as he is the one with the most options at its disposition. My perspective is not "conservative", maybe the issue is split along those lines where you are from. But the MAGA and MAGA influenced we have here are also anti Israel. Being against the Jews is common for both ends of the political spectrum. I guess centrist if you had to label it though I'm not sure the point. There are lots of reports of Hamas selling aid, I think it is a fairly safe conclusion that if they are selling the aid, they have most of the guns and power that many of the gangs are Hamas or Hamas controlled. Some also could be mobs of hungry people and the ones with guns then steal it from them? I'm not sure what your argument is about Hamas upping civilian casualties, since it is their strategy is that and where their bases are indicate that. They have also been vocal (and violent) about civilians not leaving the areas where their forces are fighting. Reports of them shooting people leaving and so on. It is not in any way disputed facts. If you want people to take the facts of say the shooting at the Aid truck, you have to take the facts about Hamas. You can form opinions from there but ignoring facts that don't fit your narrative makes your narrative not only inaccurate but also not at all convincing to people who are paying attention to the facts or do not already agree with you. The inspections are also required because of all the illegal weapons being shipped in. Is the military inspecting them being overly cautious to the point of negatively effecting the civilians. You bet they are. Would almost every military do this knowing that much of the aid ending up in the hands of their combatants, almost assuredly. Acting as if Israel is the only ones that have the power to stop this is simply wrong. Hamas could have simply ended this by, not starting it. But more than that they could have offered the Hostages back way earlier. Israel has a long history of paying huge prices for the release of hostages. We will never know if just giving them back would have been enough, I think it would have. But giving them back and the political wing disavowing the terrorist wing (rather than supporting it) and the terrorists leaving Gaza would have prevented all of this. Now of course the above is not going to happen, the same way Israel was not going to let a bunch of their innocents get killed and then taken hostage (and looking more and more like then killed anyway) and not respond. Civilians, in huge numbers were bound to die after Hamas did what it did. Not because Israel is extra evil and not only because of the power imbalance but because that is what happens in urban warfare. It comes across as against one ethnicity because only that ethnicity is there (why that is, is very complicated). There are lots of articles about that if you don't like this one. Like if the US waged war on North Korea they would kill almost all Koreans, but that wouldn't be because they want to genocide Koreans it would be because that is basically all that is there. Now if they were also killing all the Koreans in America, rounding them up in camps or shooting them in the streets it would be. None of that is happening here. https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/02/14/gaza-war-israel-civilian-deaths-urban-warfare-hamas/
I mean, most conservatives are pro israeli, fox news and their moms are supporting Israël while most evangelists are totally crazy about it.
Anyway, back to the subject, you choose to ignore all the reports I showcased on how israeli is heavely limiting the aid according to un/ngo envoys. You choose to even ignore israeli reports about threatening mobs which don't mention Hamas.
Just like you're ignoring this basic facts and reasonning :
- There are enough aid since october 7th to begin with.
- Famine will then come at there are no enough aid.
- As famine come as there are not enough aids, collapse of law and order begin.
In conclusion, this famine is not hamas induced. Other articles about collapse of law and order : https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/as-israel-drives-out-hamas-lawlessness-hampers-gaza-aid-efforts-2438be11
And even when there weren't this collapse of law and order, there are evidence from your own us envoy in november than not all aid was stolen by hamas, maybe they did at some times but it isn't as generalised as you make to be.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us-special-envoy-no-record-hamas-blocking-or-seizing-aid-2023-11-04/
So that's a lot of denial from you.
For the rest of your text, it's my fault, I shouldn't have moved the goal post about the israeli blocus which generates this famine.
Vengeance is not an excuse, israeli are responsible of their actions, like when you induce a famine on 2.1 millions people, it's up to you and only you and for your lastest article, there are a lot of dubious stuffs on it imo but my only comment will be the coalition didn't create a blocus which put millions in starvation.
All in all, your denial is weird. Like you're making an analogy about a near extermination case of the nk people by the us not being a genocide because they don't kill koreans within their territory. I suppose you want to point out wiping gazaans wouldn't be a genocide anyway because tsahal don't murder all israeli arabs.
So all is good right ? Why are you afraid of denying this induced starvation despite the numerous proofs ? It is undisputable, I don't get it.
Bringing all sort of justifications to something and then denying it in front of evidences, it doesn't make sense.
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In fairness to Jimmy, he isn't a conservative, he's a neo-liberal. For the sake of being pro-Israel there isn't much difference, as they are also all falling over one another to kiss Netanyahu's ass, but their rhetoric is slightly more moderated.
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Nebuchad, I don’t think you’re going far enough in your attempts to be empathetic to how radicalization develops in the average youthful Gazan. Children can’t just jump from *see family members get killed by people (Hamas or IDF)* to *it’s all Israel’s fault this is happening* without some sort of education on what Israel is. It’s very easy to imagine a hypothetical of picking up that child, transplanting them to Israel for example, getting adopted by a family there, giving them an education with their slant / spin, and getting that Gazan to believe the killings are motivated by aggressive Muslim religious fundamentalists, resulting in them being radicalized against Hamas.
The who, what, why, and how of oppression isn’t baked into the human psyche; only the raw emotions felt are. The ones trusted with / in charge of explaining how the world works hold ultimate formative power over youth.
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On March 05 2024 21:52 Ryzel wrote:
Nebuchad, I don’t think you’re going far enough in your attempts to be empathetic to how radicalization develops in the average youthful Gazan. Children can’t just jump from *see family members get killed by people (Hamas or IDF)* to *it’s all Israel’s fault this is happening* without some sort of education on what Israel is. It’s very easy to imagine a hypothetical of picking up that child, transplanting them to Israel for example, getting adopted by a family there, giving them an education with their slant / spin, and getting that Gazan to believe the killings are motivated by aggressive Muslim religious fundamentalists, resulting in them being radicalized against Hamas.
The who, what, why, and how of oppression isn’t baked into the human psyche; only the raw emotions felt are. The ones trusted with / in charge of explaining how the world works hold ultimate formative power over youth.
The best lie is the one that builds on the truth. The best propaganda is that which easily attaches to reality.
Not many lies are needed to make a Palestinian hate Israel. When literally everyone around you knows someone who has been killed by the IDF, or when everyone around you is economically oppressed by Jewish settlers, there's not much of a leap required to hating Israel. The State of Israel has done a horrible job at resolving the conflict, instead it has chosen to pile up Palestinian bodies sky high for many generations. And that's only the worst of a long list of Israel's crimes.
I'd argue it would take a lot more effort for a Palestinian to not hate Israel. How can they forgive them? What has Israel done to deserve forgiveness, or even leniency?
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EPT
