EPTThings Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine - Page 230
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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FriedrichNietzsche
92 Posts
Does it in anyway change things when a democratic country does abhorrent things to another country or population? No! I am not exclusively talking about Israel now. I did not think for one second that USAs behaviour in Vietnam or Iraq & Afghanistan was any better or more valuable because we label it as done by a "democracy". Sorry I dont give a fuck. Does a democracy generally treat its own population better than other forms of governing? Yes ofc. So what? If that is what the topic would be about we could lay it to rest in an instant. But it isn't that. Let me be blunt: You often state that Israel is a democracy. How does that help Gazans who are oppressed since decades and bombed into the stone age? It almost feels to me like you do not really care about the human beings there. Like from the Palestinians point of view I think they would be much better off if Israel was not a democracy but had no ties to USA and had a much weaker military instead. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12559 Posts
On March 06 2024 20:40 FriedrichNietzsche wrote: I mean in a way one has to appreciate the fact that many here don't have the stance "IDF is doing horrible things and Hamas is doing horrible things; I am unsure who is precisely to blame how much but it is a back and forth that seemingly won't stop" because then the topic would indeed come to a rather fast halt. Then again I feel this is the most objective, true take. I think you're falling for a trap there. It is certainly easy to see things that way but I feel it's reductive, as it ignores the specific context in which this back and forth is happening. It is objectively true that the back and forth exists, I'm punching you, you punch back, I punch back, you punch back, but if you zoom out a little bit, I'm constantly kicking you in the balls, and no matter whether you punch back or not, this keeps happening. I can only imagine how aggravating it is for you that when people discuss the situation all they talk about is the punching back and forth and everyone pretends like it's standard, or good, or the natural state of affairs, that all this while I've been kicking you in the balls. | ||
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FriedrichNietzsche
92 Posts
It is so tough to quantify who is to blame how much so that is why I wouldnt even really try to go there.. but unless one is completely weighing palestinian lives a lot lower than Israeli lives I dont understand how one can not come to the conclusion that what Israel is doing the couple last months is totally unreasonable.. (So I think we largely agree tbh) | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
If I asked the same question to Palestinians where they've been oppressed by Israelis, they could point to various different spots and I'd be instantly able to confirm that these spots do in fact exist. The back and forth violence is not the underlying cause of the conflict. It's a symptom. The violence confirms that a conflict is indeed happening, but it tells us nothing about why it's been happening and why neither side stops. When you look at the potential causes, on the pro-Palestinian side the argument is that Israeli oppression causes the violence. On the pro-Israel side the argument is that extremists such as Hamas are being funded by countries such as Iran and Qatar and Palestinian are being recruited into Hamas through propaganda. Two major points are being omitted. The pro-Palestinian side omits that Hamas has continuously conducted airstrikes over the years, while the pro-Israel side omits that Israel's oppression of Palestinians fuels the propaganda that leads to recruitment into Hamas. However, there's a third major point that's being omitted, which is that the IDF is easily ten times more powerful than Hamas and all surrounding nations combined. They can even use nuclear weapons if necessary. There's no scenario in which Israel can lose a war against the combined force of all of the hostile countries and terrorist groups surrounding them. With great power comes great responsibility. Israel isn't taking responsibility despite having all the power, and that is the problem. In that region they are effectively in a position of a demigod, and they refuse to accept the responsibility that should come with such power. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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FriedrichNietzsche
92 Posts
Having USA as an extremely loyal ally is worth more than having a slightly bigger army for sure. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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FriedrichNietzsche
92 Posts
It is not true and Israel not outgunning the entire middle east combind doesn't change anything about that. Also it isn't even that important to his points? It is a bit like if he stated that the earth is not flat and you found a couple of mistakes in his calculations that try to show the earth is a sphere. OK he exeggerated Israels military might. Big deal. Oh and fwiw who really knows how powerful which military is. I would not be the least bit surprised if Israel had the best stuff available.. this isn't exactly stuff you can google though obviously. Do you think his assumption that Israel is (relatively) save from Hamas and other middle east countries is flawed? If so I would like to hear arguments - I can definitely be persuaded that he is wrong. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
Totally not ten times more powerful. Funny joke. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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FriedrichNietzsche
92 Posts
So surely they arent directly connected. Let's please just be honest: Israel has the might & power & connection (backing of USA) to do this + the "right" person(s) in charge who are insanely evil and have certain goals in mind. It is entirely immoral and unethical. If you disagree with this have the guts and just say so please.. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
Especially when it comes to the leadership in Qatar and elsewhere... no way. Not even Israel would recognize this. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Ciaus237
South Africa288 Posts
Don't really have much to say on this one. It's such blatant settler colonialism, and meanwhile Israel gets little more than a finger-wag from the rest of the world. I think that if my country was in a slightly more politically useful location that apartheid would be ongoing and we'd be getting a blank cheque from the US to sustain it. Israel's Haaretz newspaper said the Higher Planning Committee of the Civil Administration - the body that implements Israeli government policy in the West Bank - had advanced plans for the development of 3,476 settler homes on Wednesday - with 2,452 in Maale Adumim, 694 in Efrat and 330 in Kedar. Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, a far-right politician who oversees the Civil Administration, said following the meeting that a total of 18,515 homes in West Bank settlements had now been approved over the past year. "The enemies try to harm and weaken us but we will continue to build and be built up in this land," he wrote on X, formerly Twitter. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27460 Posts
On March 07 2024 00:19 FriedrichNietzsche wrote: I never bought this sorry. Is Democracy a good thing? Yes! Is it better than sth else (e.g. dictatorship, communism ect..) ofc! Does it in anyway change things when a democratic country does abhorrent things to another country or population? No! I am not exclusively talking about Israel now. I did not think for one second that USAs behaviour in Vietnam or Iraq & Afghanistan was any better or more valuable because we label it as done by a "democracy". Sorry I dont give a fuck. Does a democracy generally treat its own population better than other forms of governing? Yes ofc. So what? If that is what the topic would be about we could lay it to rest in an instant. But it isn't that. Let me be blunt: You often state that Israel is a democracy. How does that help Gazans who are oppressed since decades and bombed into the stone age? It almost feels to me like you do not really care about the human beings there. Like from the Palestinians point of view I think they would be much better off if Israel was not a democracy but had no ties to USA and had a much weaker military instead. Democracy in and of itself isn’t a good, or a bad thing IMO. Assuming a polity can even accurately reflect the rough sentiment of its populace, which democracy often doesn’t even deliver, whether the overall outcome is a net positive or negative is contingent on what those sentiments are. I think it’s a distinct thing from certain principles generally associated with democracy, be it freedom of expression or self-determination which are more obviously positive, but also aren’t necessarily unique traits to a liberal democracy. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27460 Posts
On March 07 2024 04:56 Ciaus237 wrote: BBC: Israel approves plans for 3,400 new homes in West Bank settlements Don't really have much to say on this one. It's such blatant settler colonialism, and meanwhile Israel gets little more than a finger-wag from the rest of the world. I think that if my country was in a slightly more politically useful location that apartheid would be ongoing and we'd be getting a blank cheque from the US to sustain it. It’s the craic like this that is largely indefensible and drives a lot of ire against Israel from folks like yours truly. The issue of security and having a population next door that wishes to do your populace harm, and how to deal with that is a lot less cut and dry and intractable, so I try to demarcate between the two although there is crossover naturally. So long as Israel engages in overt colonialism well, folks will consider them as engaging in overt colonialism. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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