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Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine - Page 232

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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
March 07 2024 13:59 GMT
#4621
--- Nuked ---
Cerebrate1
Profile Joined October 2023
265 Posts
March 07 2024 14:15 GMT
#4622
On March 07 2024 21:50 Magic Powers wrote:
"They do this by hiding behind civilians and civilian infrastructure making them a valid military target."

The IDF has attacked various refugee camps. That's more than "Israel also playing a role". It's a war crime.

Refugee camps are not more sacrosanct in the Geneva Conventions than hospitals. If there is military infrastructure there, it's a valid military target.
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria3881 Posts
March 07 2024 14:25 GMT
#4623
On March 07 2024 23:15 Cerebrate1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2024 21:50 Magic Powers wrote:
"They do this by hiding behind civilians and civilian infrastructure making them a valid military target."

The IDF has attacked various refugee camps. That's more than "Israel also playing a role". It's a war crime.

Refugee camps are not more sacrosanct in the Geneva Conventions than hospitals. If there is military infrastructure there, it's a valid military target.


Mask off.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
Cricketer12
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States13972 Posts
March 07 2024 14:25 GMT
#4624
My resolution? Air strikes. Bomb them. Keep bombing them. Bomb them again and again and again.
Kaina + Drones Linkcro Summon Cupsie Yummy Way
Cerebrate1
Profile Joined October 2023
265 Posts
March 07 2024 14:27 GMT
#4625
On March 07 2024 15:10 Acrofales wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2024 13:32 Cerebrate1 wrote:
On March 07 2024 01:29 JimmiC wrote:
On March 07 2024 01:21 Magic Powers wrote:
If I were a therapist for Israelis and Palestinians, and I'd ask the Israelis to show me on the doll where they've been oppressed by Palestinians, I'm sure they could point to various spots, but I'd have a very hard time confirming if any of these spots actually exist.
If I asked the same question to Palestinians where they've been oppressed by Israelis, they could point to various different spots and I'd be instantly able to confirm that these spots do in fact exist.

The back and forth violence is not the underlying cause of the conflict. It's a symptom. The violence confirms that a conflict is indeed happening, but it tells us nothing about why it's been happening and why neither side stops.

When you look at the potential causes, on the pro-Palestinian side the argument is that Israeli oppression causes the violence.
On the pro-Israel side the argument is that extremists such as Hamas are being funded by countries such as Iran and Qatar and Palestinian are being recruited into Hamas through propaganda.
Two major points are being omitted. The pro-Palestinian side omits that Hamas has continuously conducted airstrikes over the years, while the pro-Israel side omits that Israel's oppression of Palestinians fuels the propaganda that leads to recruitment into Hamas.

However, there's a third major point that's being omitted, which is that the IDF is easily ten times more powerful than Hamas and all surrounding nations combined. They can even use nuclear weapons if necessary. There's no scenario in which Israel can lose a war against the combined force of all of the hostile countries and terrorist groups surrounding them.

With great power comes great responsibility. Israel isn't taking responsibility despite having all the power, and that is the problem. In that region they are effectively in a position of a demigod, and they refuse to accept the responsibility that should come with such power.

Wait you think the IDF is 10x stronger than all the other nations around it? You are severely under rating Iran as well as others.

Lots of other questionable things but that one is just flat out wrong.

Edit: you look up any list this one has Egypt at 11, Israel as 14, SA at 15, Iran at 19, UAE at 24 It is very likely that they do not have the strongest military of all the countries that surround them, let alone 10x stronger than all combined!

I agree with your general point that Israel is not singlehandedly stronger than everyone else in the region. Especially with the arms race that has been going on in the Middle East for the past couple decades.

I just wanted to point out tangentially that those websites that rank militaries usually are just counting up hardware. So SA has a lot of cool helicopters and stuff, Egypt has 2 carriers, etc. The problem is, most armies in the Middle East are full of corruption, nepotism, and incompetence. That's hard to measure on a chart, but it's factored into many of the military engagements with Israel to help Israel come out on top even in many situations where they were really outgunned. That of course doesn't mean that they'll always be able to out play their opponents. Nor should they constantly be on the edge of their seat wondering when they'll have to.

Edit: To the people who keep mentioning nukes: those are hard to factor in to any military calculation. Actually using a nuke today is less a military maneuver and more flipping the whole board. You can't actually protect yourself with nukes, you mostly just wipe out a couple cities. It's hard to predict all the things that would happen after that point, but they likely wouldn't be good for the people who used the nukes. (Note Russia having tons of nukes, bleeding pretty hard in their current war, yet still not dropping a single nuke.)

Their main value is deterance (if you have them, no one would risk attacking you lest you use them.) Unfortunately, that value diminishes when the people who want you dead have an ideology of martyrdom.

None of the surrounding countries have a government that follows an ideology of martyrdom. I agree that nuking Gaza or WB would be ineffective and counterproductive on very very many levels.

Ya, Israel nuking Gaza or the WB would also basically be like nuking itself with how fallout works.

It's true that the current governments of Egypt, Lebanon, and Jordan are not Islamist. The current threats are more Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas, the Houthis, and various Iraqi militias.
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
March 07 2024 14:31 GMT
#4626
--- Nuked ---
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12144 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-07 14:40:22
March 07 2024 14:35 GMT
#4627
On March 07 2024 12:52 gobbledydook wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2024 07:18 JimmiC wrote:
On March 07 2024 06:43 WombaT wrote:
On March 07 2024 04:56 Ciaus237 wrote:
BBC: Israel approves plans for 3,400 new homes in West Bank settlements

Don't really have much to say on this one. It's such blatant settler colonialism, and meanwhile Israel gets little more than a finger-wag from the rest of the world.
I think that if my country was in a slightly more politically useful location that apartheid would be ongoing and we'd be getting a blank cheque from the US to sustain it.


Israel's Haaretz newspaper said the Higher Planning Committee of the Civil Administration - the body that implements Israeli government policy in the West Bank - had advanced plans for the development of 3,476 settler homes on Wednesday - with 2,452 in Maale Adumim, 694 in Efrat and 330 in Kedar.

Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, a far-right politician who oversees the Civil Administration, said following the meeting that a total of 18,515 homes in West Bank settlements had now been approved over the past year.

"The enemies try to harm and weaken us but we will continue to build and be built up in this land," he wrote on X, formerly Twitter.

It’s the craic like this that is largely indefensible and drives a lot of ire against Israel from folks like yours truly.

The issue of security and having a population next door that wishes to do your populace harm, and how to deal with that is a lot less cut and dry and intractable, so I try to demarcate between the two although there is crossover naturally.

So long as Israel engages in overt colonialism well, folks will consider them as engaging in overt colonialism.

Its probably better to define it as annexation. Colonialism requires they exploit the place for economic reasons, which is not the case.

It’s lebensraum right? Straight out of the Nazi playbook


The parallel is clear but if you want to get technical it's not the nazi playbook, it's the colonial one. It's more that the Nazi playbook was inspired by colonial ideology and this is as well. There was a cool ass episode of Behind the Bastards about Hitler being a huge fan of Karl May's books.

Edit: probably should be using Fanon as a reference for this rather than a podcast, wtf am I writing lol ^_^
No will to live, no wish to die
Salazarz
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Korea (South)2591 Posts
March 07 2024 14:43 GMT
#4628
On March 07 2024 22:59 JimmiC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2024 16:57 Mikau wrote:
On March 07 2024 15:33 JimmiC wrote:
On March 07 2024 12:52 gobbledydook wrote:
On March 07 2024 07:18 JimmiC wrote:
On March 07 2024 06:43 WombaT wrote:
On March 07 2024 04:56 Ciaus237 wrote:
BBC: Israel approves plans for 3,400 new homes in West Bank settlements

Don't really have much to say on this one. It's such blatant settler colonialism, and meanwhile Israel gets little more than a finger-wag from the rest of the world.
I think that if my country was in a slightly more politically useful location that apartheid would be ongoing and we'd be getting a blank cheque from the US to sustain it.


Israel's Haaretz newspaper said the Higher Planning Committee of the Civil Administration - the body that implements Israeli government policy in the West Bank - had advanced plans for the development of 3,476 settler homes on Wednesday - with 2,452 in Maale Adumim, 694 in Efrat and 330 in Kedar.

Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, a far-right politician who oversees the Civil Administration, said following the meeting that a total of 18,515 homes in West Bank settlements had now been approved over the past year.

"The enemies try to harm and weaken us but we will continue to build and be built up in this land," he wrote on X, formerly Twitter.

It’s the craic like this that is largely indefensible and drives a lot of ire against Israel from folks like yours truly.

The issue of security and having a population next door that wishes to do your populace harm, and how to deal with that is a lot less cut and dry and intractable, so I try to demarcate between the two although there is crossover naturally.

So long as Israel engages in overt colonialism well, folks will consider them as engaging in overt colonialism.

Its probably better to define it as annexation. Colonialism requires they exploit the place for economic reasons, which is not the case.

It’s lebensraum right? Straight out of the Nazi playbook

Of course not.

Were you aware that many consider what you just did there antisemitism, it is a debated topic in academia.

https://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/news/antisemitism-defined-why-drawing-comparisons-of-contemporary-israeli-policy-to-the-nazis-is-antisemitic

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparisons_between_Israel_and_Nazi_Germany



Isn't that convenient.

Comparing Israeli policy to Nazi policy is antisemitic, even if there are obvious parallels between the two. A nice and easy way to make sure you never have to take responsibility for the fucked up shit you do.

It is more so then the old not all criticisms of Israel are antisemitic, but all antisemitic's criticize Israel.

So take this comparison the word, that I like probably everyone had never heard of, basically originally meant expansionism for Germany, not the worst comparison. But you throw in the Nazi part, and you read how they perverted the term to also include their biopolitical and race superiority bullshit and you see that the comparison falls flat.

So I'm not saying that gobbeydook is antisemitic, he probably just read it on a facebook or instagram post, didn't look into it and was like "ya they are like the Nazis". Which was likely the goal of the antisemitic guy/gal who made the original post.




Obligatory reminder that Israel has openly enshrined racial supremacy of Jews in their constitution. The only way you can have all the rights in the state of Israel is by being Jewish. There is literally no way for an Arabic (or any other non-Jewish) person to have equal rights to a Jew in their country.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-07 15:05:24
March 07 2024 15:04 GMT
#4629
Do it. Israel has more than enough defense industry to, and European support to sustain itself in a supposed Rafah operation. The reason for US continued lobbying is for Evangelical political support, which much to Netanyahu's dismay is quickly drying up domestically in the US.

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Cerebrate1
Profile Joined October 2023
265 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-07 15:45:42
March 07 2024 15:42 GMT
#4630
On March 07 2024 23:25 Magic Powers wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2024 23:15 Cerebrate1 wrote:
On March 07 2024 21:50 Magic Powers wrote:
"They do this by hiding behind civilians and civilian infrastructure making them a valid military target."

The IDF has attacked various refugee camps. That's more than "Israel also playing a role". It's a war crime.

Refugee camps are not more sacrosanct in the Geneva Conventions than hospitals. If there is military infrastructure there, it's a valid military target.


Mask off.

Eh. I didn't say anything about the morality of the situation in that post. You claimed that something was a war crime. I clarified that it is not necessarily a war crime based on the actual definition of war crimes.

You may have "unmasked" that I have a compulsive need to correct inaccuracies, but I've mentioned that that is my MO a couple time myself.

If you wanted to have a conversation about the morality of the situation instead of pointing to technical war crimes, we would have had a different discussion.
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
March 07 2024 15:45 GMT
#4631
--- Nuked ---
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria3881 Posts
March 07 2024 15:53 GMT
#4632
On March 08 2024 00:42 Cerebrate1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2024 23:25 Magic Powers wrote:
On March 07 2024 23:15 Cerebrate1 wrote:
On March 07 2024 21:50 Magic Powers wrote:
"They do this by hiding behind civilians and civilian infrastructure making them a valid military target."

The IDF has attacked various refugee camps. That's more than "Israel also playing a role". It's a war crime.

Refugee camps are not more sacrosanct in the Geneva Conventions than hospitals. If there is military infrastructure there, it's a valid military target.


Mask off.

Eh. I didn't say anything about the morality of the situation in that post. You claimed that something was a war crime. I clarified that it is not necessarily a war crime based on the actual definition of war crimes.

You may have "unmasked" that I have a compulsive need to correct inaccuracies, but I've mentioned that that is my MO a couple time myself.

If you wanted to have a conversation about the morality of the situation instead of pointing to technical war crimes, we would have had a different discussion.


Your opinion is pretty weightless compared to the many institutions and scholars who call Israel's actions war crimes.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 07 2024 16:04 GMT
#4633
Meanwhile there is infighting between Hamas leadership and one could imagine it growing worse by the day as the situation becomes more dire. Ramadan begins in 3 days...

Now Hamas is demanding a permanent ceasefire instead of a six week pause.

CAIRO — Hamas said a delegation of its officials had left the current round of cease-fire talks in the Egyptian capital Thursday as negotiations continue.

The group said in a statement on Telegram that its officials had “left Cairo to consult with the leadership of the movement” over unresolved issues concerning humanitarian aid, ending the fighting and returning displaced Gazans. Egyptian state media reported that talks would resume next week.

Separately, a Hamas official told The Post that the delegation left for Doha to meet with Hamas leadership based in Qatar.

“The round in Cairo ended but the negotiations did not end, the negotiations are continuing,” the official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak about ongoing negotiations. “We want a permanent cease-fire, and we want the withdrawal of the Israeli army from the Gaza Strip.”

The official said Hamas wanted displaced Gazans to return to the strip’s north and had rejected demands to “divide Gaza into two parts.”

The Hamas official added that they were seeking a permanent cease-fire that would extend beyond Ramadan — amid fears from his side that a six-week truce releasing all the hostages would leave Gazans with no guarantee that hostilities would not resume after the time period expires. The Islamic fasting month is due to begin on Sunday or Monday.

State Department spokesman Matthew Miller told reporters Wednesday that he was still optimistic a deal could be agreed. “We continue to believe that the obstacles are not insurmountable and that a deal can be reached,” he told reporters, adding that an agreement is in the interest of all parties and the broader region.

At a briefing Thursday afternoon local time, David Mencer, an Israeli government spokesperson, said he “can’t comment on our efforts to release the hostages. Israel would do whatever she can to release them.”

“It is Hamas who is the stumbling block, by not giving the list of the names of the hostages,” he said.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
March 07 2024 16:23 GMT
#4634
--- Nuked ---
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland24974 Posts
March 07 2024 16:48 GMT
#4635
On March 08 2024 00:45 JimmiC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 08 2024 00:42 Cerebrate1 wrote:
On March 07 2024 23:25 Magic Powers wrote:
On March 07 2024 23:15 Cerebrate1 wrote:
On March 07 2024 21:50 Magic Powers wrote:
"They do this by hiding behind civilians and civilian infrastructure making them a valid military target."

The IDF has attacked various refugee camps. That's more than "Israel also playing a role". It's a war crime.

Refugee camps are not more sacrosanct in the Geneva Conventions than hospitals. If there is military infrastructure there, it's a valid military target.


Mask off.

Eh. I didn't say anything about the morality of the situation in that post. You claimed that something was a war crime. I clarified that it is not necessarily a war crime based on the actual definition of war crimes.

You may have "unmasked" that I have a compulsive need to correct inaccuracies, but I've mentioned that that is my MO a couple time myself.

Not to be too picky, but there was a war crime, just it was Hamas putting their military assets there.

The real war crime is the friends we made along the way. There’s a difference between an actual military target, and a location that military or paramilitary personnel happen to be in.

Undoubtedly there have been many occasions where Hamas have used positions embedded in civilian populations and launched attacks, it’s a very well-noted tactic. Is it every single time in a conflict where tens of thousands have died?

There has to be some kind of distinction here otherwise the Geneva Conventions are more toothless and functionally useless than they presently are. Can you bomb a hospital if it’s full of convalescing military personnel? I mean most people would say no and it’s against the spirit of those conventions and generally quite morally repugnant. One could make the argument that experienced military personnel who are going to recirculate into active rotation are a pretty big military asset, but I digress.

I’d argue it’s basically pointless to even use the term in any non moral-intuition based sense. If proportionality is out the window, and if any area that contains Hamas members is fair game there is scarcely much point in having designated war crimes in international law.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
RvB
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands6204 Posts
March 07 2024 17:08 GMT
#4636
On March 07 2024 21:50 Magic Powers wrote:
"They do this by hiding behind civilians and civilian infrastructure making them a valid military target."

The IDF has attacked various refugee camps. That's more than "Israel also playing a role". It's a war crime.

Refugee camps in name only. They were refugee camps decades ago and developed into cities. Either way even civilian objects with special protections under IHL can become a valid target. Rules are stricter but it's possible nonetheless. If we think about it that makes a lot of sense because otherwise it'd be very easy for organizations like Hamas to abuse IHL in their favor. Whether these attacks are a war crime or not is heavily context dependent. We almost always do not have that context.
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12144 Posts
March 07 2024 17:10 GMT
#4637
On March 08 2024 02:08 RvB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2024 21:50 Magic Powers wrote:
"They do this by hiding behind civilians and civilian infrastructure making them a valid military target."

The IDF has attacked various refugee camps. That's more than "Israel also playing a role". It's a war crime.

Refugee camps in name only. They were refugee camps decades ago and developed into cities. Either way even civilian objects with special protections under IHL can become a valid target. Rules are stricter but it's possible nonetheless. If we think about it that makes a lot of sense because otherwise it'd be very easy for organizations like Hamas to abuse IHL in their favor. Whether these attacks are a war crime or not is heavily context dependent. We almost always do not have that context.


Hi RvB, can I quickly get your opinion on this military strategy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine
No will to live, no wish to die
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
March 07 2024 17:24 GMT
#4638
--- Nuked ---
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-07 17:50:20
March 07 2024 17:26 GMT
#4639
Okay... I'll bite. How will this work, what happens if Hamas attacks will US soldiers be guarding said temporary port, what if the IDF attacks? We know Israel has a history of attacking US assets... will Egyptian soldiers also be stationed at said port?

President Joe Biden is to announce that the US military will construct a port in Gaza to get more humanitarian aid into the territory by sea, senior US officials say.

He will make the announcement during his State of the Union address later.

The temporary port will increase the amount of humanitarian assistance to Palestinians by "hundreds of additional truckloads" per day, officials say.

The effort will reportedly take "a number of weeks" to execute.

The initial shipments will arrive via Cyprus and security will be coordinated with Israel, officials say.

In his speech to Congress on Thursday, President Biden will announce that he has ordered the military "to undertake an emergency mission to establish a port in Gaza, working with like-minded countries and humanitarian partners", an official said.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria3881 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-07 17:27:46
March 07 2024 17:26 GMT
#4640
On March 08 2024 02:08 RvB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2024 21:50 Magic Powers wrote:
"They do this by hiding behind civilians and civilian infrastructure making them a valid military target."

The IDF has attacked various refugee camps. That's more than "Israel also playing a role". It's a war crime.

Refugee camps in name only. They were refugee camps decades ago and developed into cities. Either way even civilian objects with special protections under IHL can become a valid target. Rules are stricter but it's possible nonetheless. If we think about it that makes a lot of sense because otherwise it'd be very easy for organizations like Hamas to abuse IHL in their favor. Whether these attacks are a war crime or not is heavily context dependent. We almost always do not have that context.


I'm sure the "context" of bullets and shrapnels ripping through men, women and children who were told to move South to flee from a war zone is very relevant to them now that they've met their maker.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
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