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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On March 03 2024 18:10 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 19:30 Magic Powers wrote:On March 02 2024 18:58 RvB wrote:On March 02 2024 12:56 Salazarz wrote:On March 02 2024 05:29 JimmiC wrote:On March 02 2024 05:22 WombaT wrote:On March 02 2024 04:55 JimmiC wrote:On March 02 2024 04:21 Salazarz wrote:On March 02 2024 00:31 JimmiC wrote:
Soldiers who have lost mates in the conflict and likely friends and family who were civilians before it.
War is fucking shit. Have you even read the article before commenting on it? It's not talking about soldiers, these are random Israeli civilians being hateful cunts and nothing else to it. They're literally talking about wanting Gazan children to die because 'they'll grow up to be terrorists someday anyway.' Like, no shit they will if you treat them like this. Omg! There are hateful Israelis! You should read some hateful quotes from Americans, Canadians, Koreans and literally people any where and every where. Tons about the Jews from all the countries around, but usually they only print the ones from the leaders. It’s not news, I mean it is if you are looking to paint all the Israelis in a bad light but for everyone else it should be like, duh there are hateful people everywhere. Sure but you seem to consistently handwave Israeli awfulness with ‘well this sucks what do you expect?’ way more easily than stuff on the Palestinian side of the ledger. No one posts the Palestinian civilians saying stuff because no one here hates the Palestinian civilians, if they did I would hand wave it as well. You have personally brought up Palestinians saying stuff to justify your positions in this thread multiple times. That aside, the real issue isn't that there is a bunch of hateful Israelis being, well, hateful. Most of us here already knew that Israelis are racist against Palestinians so it's not much of a surprise. The issue is that Israeli state actors -- including, apparently, high rank military commanders -- are complicit in blockades of absolutely vital aid. Not even because of some 'there might be guns in there!' excuse or whatever they've used to openly block aid deliveries in the past, but simply because they really just don't give a fuck about how many Gazans will starve and die, and they don't even care enough to pretend and lie about it. Depriving civilians of vital supplies is a war crime, by the way. You know, that thing you keep arguing Israel totally doesn't do. The article reads that way. Of course it does not mention that the IDF and police have clashed with the protestors before that [1] [2] [3] [4] and have continued to clash [5]. The protestors from the WP article were removed the day after [6]. The police and IDF have also continued facilitating aid to the strip [7]. 5 out of 7 of those articles are from right-wing outlets with mixed credibility rating according to MBFC (media bias fact check). That puts them on a similar level as Al Jazeera in terms of bias (on the other side of the isle) and credibility. Their reports making Israel look less horrible should be ignored until verified by independent sources. Times of Israel is the only credible source with some left-wing bias and a high credibility rating. That'd be article 3 and 6. Three are from mixed outlets (JNS and Arutz Sheva). The Jerusalem Post has the same credibility rating as the Washington Post and yet you did not question the credibility of the Washington Post. The clashes are also widely reported on so I do not see much reason to doubt the reports. Here's two more from ToI and Ynet: [1] [2].
The correct conclusion isn't that we should believe outlets that have a poor MBFC rating, the correct conclusion is that I shouldn't believe the WashingtonPost article without confirmation.
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Northern Ireland24971 Posts
On March 03 2024 20:05 Nebuchad wrote:There's been a lot of reaction to this particular incident, which, hey, I'll take it. It is certainly questionable to pretend that there is a huge difference in nature between this and what came before, but I understand media and politics enough to know that they have to save face and pretend that their previous coverage and positions were still legitimate. Been thinking about this tweet a lot recently + Show Spoiler +https://twitter.com/Blunter_/status/1759783925797494907
Indeed, James (somehow forgetting his surname all of a sudden) is pretty bang on with most of that. The British response has been pretty sorely lacking both from government and in opposition. The observation that Cameron as Foreign Sec is some kind of independent entity almost feels spot on as well. While flawed ofc he is at least a competent enough politician in a sea of mendacity, ineptitude or both.
I’ve not seen much of him for a while so I’m unsure if he’s been saying this a long while, or if he’s late to the party as it were.
How far is too far? Ofc people will have different ‘red lines’ but you do need to have them, and articulate and act on them.
And on face value it would seem that the eradicate Hamas/secure the release of hostages are in direct conflict as aims go. Or at least based on the methodology currently being employed anyway. If they had the intelligence to more surgically extract these hostages, such a heavy bombing campaign would seem an unnecessary risk.
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Now Hamas has made a counter proposal.
A senior Hamas official told AFP that a delegation from the Palestinian group would discuss with mediators a proposal for a six-week truce, after a US official said Israel had broadly accepted its terms.
Envoys from the United States, Qatar and Hamas have arrived in Cairo, Egyptian state-linked media reported, as all sides have been scrambling to lock in a truce before Ramadan, the Muslim fasting month that begins on March 10 or 11.
The Hamas official said that if Israel were to meet its demands -- which have included a military withdrawal from Gaza and stepped-up humanitarian aid -- this would "pave the way for an agreement within the next 24-48 hours".
The health ministry in the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip said at least 90 Palestinians had been killed in the past 24 hours, including 14 family members whose house in the southern Rafah refugee camp had been hit.
Source
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On March 03 2024 23:21 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Now Hamas has made a counter proposal. Show nested quote +A senior Hamas official told AFP that a delegation from the Palestinian group would discuss with mediators a proposal for a six-week truce, after a US official said Israel had broadly accepted its terms.
Envoys from the United States, Qatar and Hamas have arrived in Cairo, Egyptian state-linked media reported, as all sides have been scrambling to lock in a truce before Ramadan, the Muslim fasting month that begins on March 10 or 11.
The Hamas official said that if Israel were to meet its demands -- which have included a military withdrawal from Gaza and stepped-up humanitarian aid -- this would "pave the way for an agreement within the next 24-48 hours".
The health ministry in the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip said at least 90 Palestinians had been killed in the past 24 hours, including 14 family members whose house in the southern Rafah refugee camp had been hit. Source Well any proposal from Hamas that doesn't involve shooting themselves in the head is a no go for Israel, so the odds of them agreeing to a military withdraw is basically 0.
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Famine makes people desperate, and it is starting to piss even the Egyptians off. Except not at the Israeli's as Hamas had hoped.
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On March 04 2024 02:07 JimmiC wrote:
Do people here think the Israelis wanting a list of the names of the hostages that are still alive as unreasonable? If so why? A very reasonable demand, but also understandable why Hamas doesn't want to give that if the news is, as somewhat expected I believe, bad. Because the possibility of the missing hostages being alive is a serious bargaining ship.
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On March 04 2024 04:20 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2024 02:49 Gorsameth wrote:On March 04 2024 02:07 JimmiC wrote:
Do people here think the Israelis wanting a list of the names of the hostages that are still alive as unreasonable? If so why? A very reasonable demand, but also understandable why Hamas doesn't want to give that if the news is, as somewhat expected I believe, bad. Because the possibility of the missing hostages being alive is a serious bargaining ship. So why your earlier completely negative comment about Israel when it is your opinion that Israel is asking for something reasonable and Hamas wants to negotiate in bad faith because the truth is bad for them? Israel has made it very clear the only acceptable outcome of this conflict is the complete destruction of Hamas.
Its an understandable position from the point of Israel but you can't have a negotiation with an opponent when your position is that no matter what, they have to die.
And yes Hamas wants to kill Israel but that isn't their position in these negotiations, they will settle for Israel withdrawing for now. Israel has made it clear they won't settle for anything less.
Nothing Hamas can do, outside of shooting themselves in the head, is going to get Israel to stop. Hamas has basically no agency in whether or not a cease fire happens, if we assume that "shoot yourself" is not a reasonable demand to make of someone.
I want this war to end, I want the Palestinian people to stop being stuck in the middle of a warzone and getting slaughtered while their houses and infrastructure are bombed and their land is taken from them. And that is 100% on Israel, because they know that if they let up now and allow a cease fire there is going to be tremendous pressure on them to keep that cease fire going and not assault Rafah. Their only concern is kicking out Hamas and they don't care that they have to demolish a city filled to bursting with refugees that they (Israel) themselves drove there when they destroyed the rest of Gaza.
To come back to your question. No Israel is not being reasonable. Yes asking for the hostage names is reasonable, but I highly highly doubt that that is all Israel is demanding in exchange for a cease fire because, again, they have made it very clear publicly that they will not stop until Hamas is gone.
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Hamas is refusing to hand over a list of hostages, also not responded to who/what type of prisoners they wish to see exchanged. Therefore an Israeli delegation is not headed to Cairo.
The ghost of Eisenhower needs to visit Biden tonight.... Israel still has Europe.
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On March 04 2024 06:00 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2024 05:39 Gorsameth wrote:On March 04 2024 04:20 JimmiC wrote:On March 04 2024 02:49 Gorsameth wrote:On March 04 2024 02:07 JimmiC wrote:
Do people here think the Israelis wanting a list of the names of the hostages that are still alive as unreasonable? If so why? A very reasonable demand, but also understandable why Hamas doesn't want to give that if the news is, as somewhat expected I believe, bad. Because the possibility of the missing hostages being alive is a serious bargaining ship. So why your earlier completely negative comment about Israel when it is your opinion that Israel is asking for something reasonable and Hamas wants to negotiate in bad faith because the truth is bad for them? Israel has made it very clear the only acceptable outcome of this conflict is the complete destruction of Hamas. Its an understandable position from the point of Israel but you can't have a negotiation with an opponent when your position is that no matter what, they have to die. And yes Hamas wants to kill Israel but that isn't their position in these negotiations, they will settle for Israel withdrawing for now. Israel has made it clear they won't settle for anything less. Nothing Hamas can do, outside of shooting themselves in the head, is going to get Israel to stop. Hamas has basically no agency in whether or not a cease fire happens, if we assume that "shoot yourself" is not a reasonable demand to make of someone. I want this war to end, I want the Palestinian people to stop being stuck in the middle of a warzone and getting slaughtered while their houses and infrastructure are bombed and their land is taken from them. And that is 100% on Israel, because they know that if they let up now and allow a cease fire there is going to be tremendous pressure on them to keep that cease fire going and not assault Rafah. Their only concern is kicking out Hamas and they don't care that they have to demolish a city filled to bursting with refugees that they (Israel) themselves drove there when they destroyed the rest of Gaza. To come back to your question. No Israel is not being reasonable. Yes asking for the hostage names is reasonable, but I highly highly doubt that that is all Israel is demanding in exchange for a cease fire because, again, they have made it very clear publicly that they will not stop until Hamas is gone. Israel has said the bluster of Hamas being destroyed but agreed on the frame work for the ceasefire, the sticking point is Hamas no being willing to say who if any of the hostages are alive. I’m not sure why you take that Hamas is willing to settle despite their rhetoric and not Israel. Hamas is willing to settle because they are getting killed. Destroying Israel isn't a realistic goal right now (it pretty much never was) and they need the breathing room a withdrawn would give them. Hence they are willing to settle. For Israel Oct 7th was the catalyst to 'abuse' the international shock of the gruesome attack by Hamas to do what the international community would not 'allow' them to do otherwise, take over Gaza at gunpoint. If they settle now they may not get to restart.
I don't think you can say that Israel has agreed on the framework when there would still be a lot of talking and a lot of opportunities to walk away by Israel over any number of reasons if Hamas were to release a list of all living hostages (which may well be 0 by now)
There is a massive canyon between "we are willing to talk" and "we reached a deal". And there is a lot of pressure on Israel to atleast pretend like they are making an attempt at negotiation.
And yes I have a dim view of Israel (its government, not its people), I believe they are engaging in ethnic cleansing. I'm sure that impacts my opinion of these negotiations.
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On March 02 2024 18:58 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 12:56 Salazarz wrote:On March 02 2024 05:29 JimmiC wrote:On March 02 2024 05:22 WombaT wrote:On March 02 2024 04:55 JimmiC wrote:On March 02 2024 04:21 Salazarz wrote:On March 02 2024 00:31 JimmiC wrote:
Soldiers who have lost mates in the conflict and likely friends and family who were civilians before it.
War is fucking shit. Have you even read the article before commenting on it? It's not talking about soldiers, these are random Israeli civilians being hateful cunts and nothing else to it. They're literally talking about wanting Gazan children to die because 'they'll grow up to be terrorists someday anyway.' Like, no shit they will if you treat them like this. Omg! There are hateful Israelis! You should read some hateful quotes from Americans, Canadians, Koreans and literally people any where and every where. Tons about the Jews from all the countries around, but usually they only print the ones from the leaders. It’s not news, I mean it is if you are looking to paint all the Israelis in a bad light but for everyone else it should be like, duh there are hateful people everywhere. Sure but you seem to consistently handwave Israeli awfulness with ‘well this sucks what do you expect?’ way more easily than stuff on the Palestinian side of the ledger. No one posts the Palestinian civilians saying stuff because no one here hates the Palestinian civilians, if they did I would hand wave it as well. You have personally brought up Palestinians saying stuff to justify your positions in this thread multiple times. That aside, the real issue isn't that there is a bunch of hateful Israelis being, well, hateful. Most of us here already knew that Israelis are racist against Palestinians so it's not much of a surprise. The issue is that Israeli state actors -- including, apparently, high rank military commanders -- are complicit in blockades of absolutely vital aid. Not even because of some 'there might be guns in there!' excuse or whatever they've used to openly block aid deliveries in the past, but simply because they really just don't give a fuck about how many Gazans will starve and die, and they don't even care enough to pretend and lie about it. Depriving civilians of vital supplies is a war crime, by the way. You know, that thing you keep arguing Israel totally doesn't do. The article reads that way. Of course it does not mention that the IDF and police have clashed with the protestors before that [1] [2] [3] [4] and have continued to clash [5]. The protestors from the WP article were removed the day after [6]. The police and IDF have also continued facilitating aid to the strip [7].
It doesn't change the fact the famine is due to israeli blocus which include bombing and shoting at trucks while blocking it during inspection according to humanitarians which operate there.
Humanitarians which israeli successfully villified to the point the support from western country ceased.
There is only one responsible of this famine, negationism is bad.
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On March 04 2024 05:39 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2024 04:20 JimmiC wrote:On March 04 2024 02:49 Gorsameth wrote:On March 04 2024 02:07 JimmiC wrote:
Do people here think the Israelis wanting a list of the names of the hostages that are still alive as unreasonable? If so why? A very reasonable demand, but also understandable why Hamas doesn't want to give that if the news is, as somewhat expected I believe, bad. Because the possibility of the missing hostages being alive is a serious bargaining ship. So why your earlier completely negative comment about Israel when it is your opinion that Israel is asking for something reasonable and Hamas wants to negotiate in bad faith because the truth is bad for them? Israel has made it very clear the only acceptable outcome of this conflict is the complete destruction of Hamas. Its an understandable position from the point of Israel but you can't have a negotiation with an opponent when your position is that no matter what, they have to die. And yes Hamas wants to kill Israel but that isn't their position in these negotiations, they will settle for Israel withdrawing for now. Israel has made it clear they won't settle for anything less. Nothing Hamas can do, outside of shooting themselves in the head, is going to get Israel to stop. Hamas has basically no agency in whether or not a cease fire happens, if we assume that "shoot yourself" is not a reasonable demand to make of someone. I want this war to end, I want the Palestinian people to stop being stuck in the middle of a warzone and getting slaughtered while their houses and infrastructure are bombed and their land is taken from them. And that is 100% on Israel, because they know that if they let up now and allow a cease fire there is going to be tremendous pressure on them to keep that cease fire going and not assault Rafah. Their only concern is kicking out Hamas and they don't care that they have to demolish a city filled to bursting with refugees that they (Israel) themselves drove there when they destroyed the rest of Gaza. To come back to your question. No Israel is not being reasonable. Yes asking for the hostage names is reasonable, but I highly highly doubt that that is all Israel is demanding in exchange for a cease fire because, again, they have made it very clear publicly that they will not stop until Hamas is gone.
Destruction of an organization is not the same thing as the death of all of it's members. When Germany and Japan surrendered in WW2, the vast majority of participating members of their regimes were not executed. However their organizations were dismantled and replaced (with organizations that served their people better in the long run.)
That's what Israel wants to do. Dismantle and replace Hamas with a government that won't continue to radicalize it's population and constantly start up pointless brutal wars.
Hamas has to be more radical than the Nazis and Imperial Japan to not see surrender as an option.
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On March 04 2024 12:12 Cerebrate1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2024 05:39 Gorsameth wrote:On March 04 2024 04:20 JimmiC wrote:On March 04 2024 02:49 Gorsameth wrote:On March 04 2024 02:07 JimmiC wrote:
Do people here think the Israelis wanting a list of the names of the hostages that are still alive as unreasonable? If so why? A very reasonable demand, but also understandable why Hamas doesn't want to give that if the news is, as somewhat expected I believe, bad. Because the possibility of the missing hostages being alive is a serious bargaining ship. So why your earlier completely negative comment about Israel when it is your opinion that Israel is asking for something reasonable and Hamas wants to negotiate in bad faith because the truth is bad for them? Israel has made it very clear the only acceptable outcome of this conflict is the complete destruction of Hamas. Its an understandable position from the point of Israel but you can't have a negotiation with an opponent when your position is that no matter what, they have to die. And yes Hamas wants to kill Israel but that isn't their position in these negotiations, they will settle for Israel withdrawing for now. Israel has made it clear they won't settle for anything less. Nothing Hamas can do, outside of shooting themselves in the head, is going to get Israel to stop. Hamas has basically no agency in whether or not a cease fire happens, if we assume that "shoot yourself" is not a reasonable demand to make of someone. I want this war to end, I want the Palestinian people to stop being stuck in the middle of a warzone and getting slaughtered while their houses and infrastructure are bombed and their land is taken from them. And that is 100% on Israel, because they know that if they let up now and allow a cease fire there is going to be tremendous pressure on them to keep that cease fire going and not assault Rafah. Their only concern is kicking out Hamas and they don't care that they have to demolish a city filled to bursting with refugees that they (Israel) themselves drove there when they destroyed the rest of Gaza. To come back to your question. No Israel is not being reasonable. Yes asking for the hostage names is reasonable, but I highly highly doubt that that is all Israel is demanding in exchange for a cease fire because, again, they have made it very clear publicly that they will not stop until Hamas is gone. Destruction of an organization is not the same thing as the death of all of it's members. When Germany and Japan surrendered in WW2, the vast majority of participating members of their regimes were not executed. However their organizations were dismantled and replaced (with organizations that served their people better in the long run.) That's what Israel wants to do. Dismantle and replace Hamas with a government that won't continue to radicalize it's population and constantly start up pointless brutal wars. Hamas has to be more radical than the Nazis and Imperial Japan to not see surrender as an option. The belief that the government of Hamas is what "radicalized the population" and not Israel's illegal occupation of Palestine and Israel's brutal subjugation of Palestinians is part of why so many people rightfully have so little faith in Israel's "day after plan".
If Israel wants to dismantle and replace a government with one that won't radicalize Palestinians they can focus on their own.
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On March 04 2024 12:38 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2024 12:12 Cerebrate1 wrote:On March 04 2024 05:39 Gorsameth wrote:On March 04 2024 04:20 JimmiC wrote:On March 04 2024 02:49 Gorsameth wrote:On March 04 2024 02:07 JimmiC wrote:
Do people here think the Israelis wanting a list of the names of the hostages that are still alive as unreasonable? If so why? A very reasonable demand, but also understandable why Hamas doesn't want to give that if the news is, as somewhat expected I believe, bad. Because the possibility of the missing hostages being alive is a serious bargaining ship. So why your earlier completely negative comment about Israel when it is your opinion that Israel is asking for something reasonable and Hamas wants to negotiate in bad faith because the truth is bad for them? Israel has made it very clear the only acceptable outcome of this conflict is the complete destruction of Hamas. Its an understandable position from the point of Israel but you can't have a negotiation with an opponent when your position is that no matter what, they have to die. And yes Hamas wants to kill Israel but that isn't their position in these negotiations, they will settle for Israel withdrawing for now. Israel has made it clear they won't settle for anything less. Nothing Hamas can do, outside of shooting themselves in the head, is going to get Israel to stop. Hamas has basically no agency in whether or not a cease fire happens, if we assume that "shoot yourself" is not a reasonable demand to make of someone. I want this war to end, I want the Palestinian people to stop being stuck in the middle of a warzone and getting slaughtered while their houses and infrastructure are bombed and their land is taken from them. And that is 100% on Israel, because they know that if they let up now and allow a cease fire there is going to be tremendous pressure on them to keep that cease fire going and not assault Rafah. Their only concern is kicking out Hamas and they don't care that they have to demolish a city filled to bursting with refugees that they (Israel) themselves drove there when they destroyed the rest of Gaza. To come back to your question. No Israel is not being reasonable. Yes asking for the hostage names is reasonable, but I highly highly doubt that that is all Israel is demanding in exchange for a cease fire because, again, they have made it very clear publicly that they will not stop until Hamas is gone. Destruction of an organization is not the same thing as the death of all of it's members. When Germany and Japan surrendered in WW2, the vast majority of participating members of their regimes were not executed. However their organizations were dismantled and replaced (with organizations that served their people better in the long run.) That's what Israel wants to do. Dismantle and replace Hamas with a government that won't continue to radicalize it's population and constantly start up pointless brutal wars. Hamas has to be more radical than the Nazis and Imperial Japan to not see surrender as an option. The belief that the government of Hamas is what "radicalized the population" and not Israel's illegal occupation of Palestine and Israel's brutal subjugation of Palestinians is part of why so many people rightfully have so little faith in Israel's "day after plan". If Israel wants to dismantle and replace a government with one that won't radicalize Palestinians they can focus on their own.
There are so many things wrong with this post that I don't have time to deal with it all.
But on one foot, I'll point out that the one place on Earth where Palestinians have the most self governance, the most self determination, the closest thing to a country they have ever had, was Gaza from 2005. Israel unilaterally removed their entire military, forcefully evicted all Israeli settlers, and pulled all the way back to 1967 borders (all the things people claim will solve all the problems).
Instead of creating a utopia though, it led to, well, all the violence and destruction that has come out of Gaza since, including some 5 wars, and the most radicalized group of Palestinians around.
Yet, in terms of oppression and causes for their violence, Hamas always points to things happening outside of Gaza as justification for their acts. (Presumably because a restriction on weapon imports wasn't a great rallying cry.)
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On March 04 2024 06:16 Gorsameth wrote:...Hamas is willing to settle because they are getting killed. Destroying Israel isn't a realistic goal right now (it pretty much never was) and they need the breathing room a withdrawn would give them. Hence they are willing to settle. ...
I don't know, the way I see it the situation is actually quite good for Hamas. The leadership is secure, the Gazan population produces ever more willing soldiers and Oct 7th made them heroes in the eyes of many Arabs and Muslims in the region. They are still in power. Nobody is coming to replace them and the international pressure on Israel to stop attacking Hamas is also rising. Of course not everything is perfect, but they might just come out on top here.
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EPT
