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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On March 01 2024 05:20 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2024 00:52 Cerebrate1 wrote:
Ya, the problem is not really Israel the government preventing aid from getting in. There have been some protesters trying to block aid from entering Gaza via Israel (their logic being, it is delaying the release of the hostages to keep providing supplies to Hamas), but Israeli police have been cracking down on those protesters with water cannons, arrests, etc to let the aid through.
Not to mention, until relatively recently, all the aid was coming through Egypt anyways, so theoretically, slowing the rate of aid coming through Israel shouldn't be the end of the world. The real problem is, that trucks that go into the strip get attacked and looted by armed Hamas groups or mobs. So Egyptian truck drivers have (reasonably) become quite resistant to let their trucks go into Gaza and get damaged. That's limiting the aid that can come in through Egypt.
Even buying a bunch of trucks doesn't really solve the problem if those will also get damaged/destroyed, so we're left with air drops.
Edit: I just saw a post about an Egyptian driver being shot to death by looters as he drove aid to Central Gaza. This will likely exacerbate the problems we are seeing. This article begs to differ https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231222-gaza-bound-aid-trucks-endure-grueling-wait-at-border
I don't see anything in this article that contradicts what I said. Israel checking trucks for weapons is not the same as "Israel preventing aid from getting in." Unless you view the ammunition they occasionally find as "aid." The trucks wait longer before they get through, but they aren't being turned away now.
Israel has still a hand of this corridor and egyptian bureaucratie is not helping either.
According to the UN, 500 trucks are needed per day for the whole population while the guardian state 5 times less have crosses the border, the narrative Hamas is stealing everything is sadly working but the truth is there is not enough food and these conditions ineluctably create both a black market and a speculation in which every major actors strangle the populations.
There are quite a lot of money to gain actually as a lot of donations are sent to gaza by paiement on internet, the big winners of it are obviously not hamas or any palestinians but some egyptians and israelis who can enrich themselves with it just like a few germans officiers became super rich with the black market during the german occupation of France.
No one is charging Gazans money to take the aid off the trucks that have made it into Gaza (unless maybe the Egyptian drivers are). So any black market and speculation that happens to aid within Gaza is entirely Gazan on Gazan predation (unless some foreign UNRWA people are involved). If aid is being sold for ridiculous sums in Gaza, some local warlord is the one making off with the cash.
This one is pretty damning too. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.voanews.com/amp/why-isn-t-desperately-needed-aid-reaching-palestinians-in-gaza-/7499319.htmlFinding sources about how north gaza is out of reach isn't hard tbh. Same for sources about convoys being bombed which are plausibles, when ambulance and 6 yo kids are shots I don't know why aids convoy would suddently escape the onslaught. But yes, this dangerous situation for the drivers might be partially caused by the palestinians themselves not that it deflects israel responsability on the matter. The egyptian drivers becoming quite resistant doesn't fit neither the articles and news, maybe some are but the overall trend from what I hear from the people I know out there and the news is the population has never been as pro palestinians as today while their dictator has never been as pro israeli, I mean, that's pretty obvious, al sissi power comes from their biggest ally and brother-country the us while hamas matrice is its arch enemy, the muslim brotherhood.
The average Egyptian is very pro-Palestinian, for sure. It's easy to be all in for the cause while sitting safely in Cairo. The truck driver who was almost mugged on his last trip into Gaza might be considering safely supporting the cause from Cairo too.
The armed mob seem more like starving people ready to do anything to survive (according to some testimonies they were children around), every armed palestinians is obviously shot as hamas militants so they can't self regulate themselves while the famine is progressing. Finding articles in the early stage of this so-called war isn't very hard, not that ir was particulary hard to predict.
It's even very likely as this point Hamas cohesion as a organization has disappeared and most act as independant little groups and militias. As chaos is rising this is more bound to happen.
Anyway, the collapse of social cohesion and law and order under starvation and bombing on a clouded place of 2 millions people makes it indeed dangerous for the trucks to pass on but you choose to forget who is causing it in the first place and yes, the slowing of trucks is the end of the world, less than 100 trucks when you already need 500 to sustain the population is the end of the world.
My point was not that the overall rate of aid is unimportant. It's clear that not enough is currently getting in. My point is that the rate of aid coming in from the Egyptian border alone was significantly higher in December and January than the rate of aid coming in from all directions combined in the past couple of weeks. (~200 trucks were coming in per day in previous months, about half through Egypt. The past couple of weeks it's dropped to ~57 trucks total getting in a day.) That doesn't indicate an Israel border specific issue or a war-long Israeli policy. That indicates a recent change that is disrupting all the aid.
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I urge people to read this. It completely shatters the illusion of "minimizing civilian casualties". They aren't even trying to accomplish this goal near/inside the border, and they refuse to comment on their inaction when asked.
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On March 01 2024 19:54 Magic Powers wrote:I urge people to read this. It completely shatters the illusion of "minimizing civilian casualties". They aren't even trying to accomplish this goal near/inside the border, and they refuse to comment on their inaction when asked.
Every explosion in Gaza raises a cheer.
“Dead, dead, dead Arabs,” one camper shouts at a roaring volley of outgoing fire. Then she notes the presence of a reporter. “Hamas,” she corrects herself.
Jesus christ.
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Soldiers behaving like cunts?
Stop the presses!
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On March 02 2024 00:03 Ciaus237 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2024 19:54 Magic Powers wrote:I urge people to read this. It completely shatters the illusion of "minimizing civilian casualties". They aren't even trying to accomplish this goal near/inside the border, and they refuse to comment on their inaction when asked. Show nested quote +
Every explosion in Gaza raises a cheer.
“Dead, dead, dead Arabs,” one camper shouts at a roaring volley of outgoing fire. Then she notes the presence of a reporter. “Hamas,” she corrects herself.
Jesus christ.
Monstrously cruel
“We heard they are giving them stuff that they don’t really, really need,” Attar says. “Like strawberries. I don’t think people there are crying for strawberries.”
Meanwhile...
In Gaza, families are eating animal feed to survive. Ninety-three percent of the population of over 2 million faces “crisis levels of hunger,” a U.N.-backed consortium reported in late December. That was before Israel's civilian population joined in on willfully starving innocent Palestinian children.
While that particular effort to starve children was led by a habitual offender with a terrorist tattoo on his neck from a notoriously violent and illegal settlement, it's a remarkably popular sentiment in Israel.
I can't imagine watching a truck full of aid drive by while I choke down some bird seed and wash it down with some salt water, let alone handing it to my toddler for dinner. I think any one of us would be ready to do just about anything to get some of that food and water.
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On March 02 2024 00:31 JimmiC wrote:
Soldiers who have lost mates in the conflict and likely friends and family who were civilians before it.
War is fucking shit.
Have you even read the article before commenting on it? It's not talking about soldiers, these are random Israeli civilians being hateful cunts and nothing else to it. They're literally talking about wanting Gazan children to die because 'they'll grow up to be terrorists someday anyway.' Like, no shit they will if you treat them like this.
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Easier to do rather than cutoff support to Israel. Ffs.
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Northern Ireland25388 Posts
On March 02 2024 04:55 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 04:21 Salazarz wrote:On March 02 2024 00:31 JimmiC wrote:
Soldiers who have lost mates in the conflict and likely friends and family who were civilians before it.
War is fucking shit. Have you even read the article before commenting on it? It's not talking about soldiers, these are random Israeli civilians being hateful cunts and nothing else to it. They're literally talking about wanting Gazan children to die because 'they'll grow up to be terrorists someday anyway.' Like, no shit they will if you treat them like this. Omg! There are hateful Israelis! You should read some hateful quotes from Americans, Canadians, Koreans and literally people any where and every where. Tons about the Jews from all the countries around, but usually they only print the ones from the leaders. It’s not news, I mean it is if you are looking to paint all the Israelis in a bad light but for everyone else it should be like, duh there are hateful people everywhere.
Sure but you seem to consistently handwave Israeli awfulness with ‘well this sucks what do you expect?’ way more easily than stuff on the Palestinian side of the ledger.
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On March 02 2024 05:29 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 05:22 WombaT wrote:On March 02 2024 04:55 JimmiC wrote:On March 02 2024 04:21 Salazarz wrote:On March 02 2024 00:31 JimmiC wrote:
Soldiers who have lost mates in the conflict and likely friends and family who were civilians before it.
War is fucking shit. Have you even read the article before commenting on it? It's not talking about soldiers, these are random Israeli civilians being hateful cunts and nothing else to it. They're literally talking about wanting Gazan children to die because 'they'll grow up to be terrorists someday anyway.' Like, no shit they will if you treat them like this. Omg! There are hateful Israelis! You should read some hateful quotes from Americans, Canadians, Koreans and literally people any where and every where. Tons about the Jews from all the countries around, but usually they only print the ones from the leaders. It’s not news, I mean it is if you are looking to paint all the Israelis in a bad light but for everyone else it should be like, duh there are hateful people everywhere. Sure but you seem to consistently handwave Israeli awfulness with ‘well this sucks what do you expect?’ way more easily than stuff on the Palestinian side of the ledger. No one posts the Palestinian civilians saying stuff because no one here hates the Palestinian civilians, if they did I would hand wave it as well.
You have personally brought up Palestinians saying stuff to justify your positions in this thread multiple times.
That aside, the real issue isn't that there is a bunch of hateful Israelis being, well, hateful. Most of us here already knew that Israelis are racist against Palestinians so it's not much of a surprise. The issue is that Israeli state actors -- including, apparently, high rank military commanders -- are complicit in blockades of absolutely vital aid. Not even because of some 'there might be guns in there!' excuse or whatever they've used to openly block aid deliveries in the past, but simply because they really just don't give a fuck about how many Gazans will starve and die, and they don't even care enough to pretend and lie about it. Depriving civilians of vital supplies is a war crime, by the way. You know, that thing you keep arguing Israel totally doesn't do.
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On March 02 2024 12:56 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 05:29 JimmiC wrote:On March 02 2024 05:22 WombaT wrote:On March 02 2024 04:55 JimmiC wrote:On March 02 2024 04:21 Salazarz wrote:On March 02 2024 00:31 JimmiC wrote:
Soldiers who have lost mates in the conflict and likely friends and family who were civilians before it.
War is fucking shit. Have you even read the article before commenting on it? It's not talking about soldiers, these are random Israeli civilians being hateful cunts and nothing else to it. They're literally talking about wanting Gazan children to die because 'they'll grow up to be terrorists someday anyway.' Like, no shit they will if you treat them like this. Omg! There are hateful Israelis! You should read some hateful quotes from Americans, Canadians, Koreans and literally people any where and every where. Tons about the Jews from all the countries around, but usually they only print the ones from the leaders. It’s not news, I mean it is if you are looking to paint all the Israelis in a bad light but for everyone else it should be like, duh there are hateful people everywhere. Sure but you seem to consistently handwave Israeli awfulness with ‘well this sucks what do you expect?’ way more easily than stuff on the Palestinian side of the ledger. No one posts the Palestinian civilians saying stuff because no one here hates the Palestinian civilians, if they did I would hand wave it as well. You have personally brought up Palestinians saying stuff to justify your positions in this thread multiple times. That aside, the real issue isn't that there is a bunch of hateful Israelis being, well, hateful. Most of us here already knew that Israelis are racist against Palestinians so it's not much of a surprise. The issue is that Israeli state actors -- including, apparently, high rank military commanders -- are complicit in blockades of absolutely vital aid. Not even because of some 'there might be guns in there!' excuse or whatever they've used to openly block aid deliveries in the past, but simply because they really just don't give a fuck about how many Gazans will starve and die, and they don't even care enough to pretend and lie about it. Depriving civilians of vital supplies is a war crime, by the way. You know, that thing you keep arguing Israel totally doesn't do.
The article reads that way. Of course it does not mention that the IDF and police have clashed with the protestors before that [1] [2] [3] [4] and have continued to clash [5]. The protestors from the WP article were removed the day after [6]. The police and IDF have also continued facilitating aid to the strip [7].
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On March 02 2024 18:58 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 12:56 Salazarz wrote:On March 02 2024 05:29 JimmiC wrote:On March 02 2024 05:22 WombaT wrote:On March 02 2024 04:55 JimmiC wrote:On March 02 2024 04:21 Salazarz wrote:On March 02 2024 00:31 JimmiC wrote:
Soldiers who have lost mates in the conflict and likely friends and family who were civilians before it.
War is fucking shit. Have you even read the article before commenting on it? It's not talking about soldiers, these are random Israeli civilians being hateful cunts and nothing else to it. They're literally talking about wanting Gazan children to die because 'they'll grow up to be terrorists someday anyway.' Like, no shit they will if you treat them like this. Omg! There are hateful Israelis! You should read some hateful quotes from Americans, Canadians, Koreans and literally people any where and every where. Tons about the Jews from all the countries around, but usually they only print the ones from the leaders. It’s not news, I mean it is if you are looking to paint all the Israelis in a bad light but for everyone else it should be like, duh there are hateful people everywhere. Sure but you seem to consistently handwave Israeli awfulness with ‘well this sucks what do you expect?’ way more easily than stuff on the Palestinian side of the ledger. No one posts the Palestinian civilians saying stuff because no one here hates the Palestinian civilians, if they did I would hand wave it as well. You have personally brought up Palestinians saying stuff to justify your positions in this thread multiple times. That aside, the real issue isn't that there is a bunch of hateful Israelis being, well, hateful. Most of us here already knew that Israelis are racist against Palestinians so it's not much of a surprise. The issue is that Israeli state actors -- including, apparently, high rank military commanders -- are complicit in blockades of absolutely vital aid. Not even because of some 'there might be guns in there!' excuse or whatever they've used to openly block aid deliveries in the past, but simply because they really just don't give a fuck about how many Gazans will starve and die, and they don't even care enough to pretend and lie about it. Depriving civilians of vital supplies is a war crime, by the way. You know, that thing you keep arguing Israel totally doesn't do. The article reads that way. Of course it does not mention that the IDF and police have clashed with the protestors before that [1] [2] [3] [4] and have continued to clash [5]. The protestors from the WP article were removed the day after [6]. The police and IDF have also continued facilitating aid to the strip [7].
5 out of 7 of those articles are from right-wing outlets with mixed credibility rating according to MBFC (media bias fact check). That puts them on a similar level as Al Jazeera in terms of bias (on the other side of the isle) and credibility. Their reports making Israel look less horrible should be ignored until verified by independent sources.
Times of Israel is the only credible source with some left-wing bias and a high credibility rating. That'd be article 3 and 6.
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Reuters - Israel appropriates 650 acres of West Bank land near big settlement
So... that's cool.
It's totally not further colonial conquest of territory against international law anything. Very cool.
Israel appropriated several tracts of land abutting a major Jewish settlement in the occupied West Bank on Thursday, but a source briefed on the decision told Reuters there was currently no plan for construction there.
An announcement by the Civil Administration, part of Israel's Defence Ministry, said the tracts amounted to 2,640 dunams, or 652 acres. The Israeli source said they would now be designated part of Maale Adumim settlement, east of Jerusalem.
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Whatever that means...
Mediators have been scrambling to lock in a truce before Ramadan, the Muslim fasting month which begins on March 10 or 11, eyeing an end to the almost five-month conflict that has ravaged Hamas-ruled Gaza.
In a sign of the dire humanitarian conditions as violence rages on, the besieged territory's health ministry reported more than a dozen child malnutrition deaths in recent days.
The US official told reporters on condition of anonymity that "there's a framework deal" for a ceasefire which "the Israelis have more or less accepted".
"Right now, the ball is in the camp of Hamas," the official said.
A source close to Hamas told AFP a delegation from the group was headed from Qatar to Egypt on Saturday.
Israel has yet to confirm that it has accepted the truce plan.
Speaking on condition of anonymity, the source said that Hamas would deliver its "official answer" to the plan, which resulted from talks with Israeli negotiators in Paris late last month.
The mediators "will resume negotiations for a Gaza truce in Cairo on Sunday," Egypt's AlQahera News reported.
Earlier the United States, which provides ally Israel with billions of dollars in military aid, said it began airdropping aid into war-ravaged Gaza.
The start of the US relief operation came a day after President Joe Biden announced the move and spoke of the "need to do more" to alleviate the dire humanitarian crisis.
But parachuting aid cannot replace "the fundamental need to move assistance through as many land crossings as possible", the US official said.
- 'Unjustifiable' shooting -
Gaza has faced dwindling deliveries of relief supplies across its land borders, which aid groups blame at least in part on Israeli restrictions.
US Central Command, in a post on social media platform X, said the air operation was conducted jointly with Jordan and saw planes drop "over 38,000 meals along the coastline of Gaza allowing for civilian access to the critical aid".
Several Arab and European governments have carried out air drops over Gaza since November but Tuesday's operation was the first involving the United States.
At least 13 children have died from "malnutrition and dehydration", the Gaza health ministry said Saturday, two days after a desperate rush for aid from a convoy of trucks in Gaza City ended in the deaths of dozens of Palestinians.
A United Nations team that visited Gaza City's Al-Shifa Hospital reported seeing "a large number" of gunshot wounds among Palestinians in the aftermath of the aid truck storming.
Hossam Abu Safiya, director of the city's Kamal Adwan Hospital, said all the casualties it admitted were hit by "bullets and shrapnel from occupation forces".
The European Union's foreign policy chief Josep Borrell joined calls for an "impartial international investigation" into the "tragic event" early Thursday.
The shooting "against civilians trying to access foodstuff is unjustifiable", he said.
The health ministry said 116 people were killed and more than 750 wounded in the chaotic scenes, which drew widespread international condemnation.
The aid convoy deaths helped push the number of Palestinian war dead in Gaza to 30,320, mostly women and children, according to Gaza's health ministry.
Source
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So Hamas might be getting ready to reject the framework either due to:
- Infighting within Hamas between the Political and Militant wings of the group
- There are very few, if any, hostages left alive. So Hamas knows they might not have any leverage if this is revealed. We already know that medicines were found not being delivered to hostages and that they were still sealed.
- Hamas might have realized that even their Arab neighbors want the to know where the hostages are, and what their status is. If they are not alive all their international and maybe even domestic support could be gone...
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On March 02 2024 19:30 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 18:58 RvB wrote:On March 02 2024 12:56 Salazarz wrote:On March 02 2024 05:29 JimmiC wrote:On March 02 2024 05:22 WombaT wrote:On March 02 2024 04:55 JimmiC wrote:On March 02 2024 04:21 Salazarz wrote:On March 02 2024 00:31 JimmiC wrote:
Soldiers who have lost mates in the conflict and likely friends and family who were civilians before it.
War is fucking shit. Have you even read the article before commenting on it? It's not talking about soldiers, these are random Israeli civilians being hateful cunts and nothing else to it. They're literally talking about wanting Gazan children to die because 'they'll grow up to be terrorists someday anyway.' Like, no shit they will if you treat them like this. Omg! There are hateful Israelis! You should read some hateful quotes from Americans, Canadians, Koreans and literally people any where and every where. Tons about the Jews from all the countries around, but usually they only print the ones from the leaders. It’s not news, I mean it is if you are looking to paint all the Israelis in a bad light but for everyone else it should be like, duh there are hateful people everywhere. Sure but you seem to consistently handwave Israeli awfulness with ‘well this sucks what do you expect?’ way more easily than stuff on the Palestinian side of the ledger. No one posts the Palestinian civilians saying stuff because no one here hates the Palestinian civilians, if they did I would hand wave it as well. You have personally brought up Palestinians saying stuff to justify your positions in this thread multiple times. That aside, the real issue isn't that there is a bunch of hateful Israelis being, well, hateful. Most of us here already knew that Israelis are racist against Palestinians so it's not much of a surprise. The issue is that Israeli state actors -- including, apparently, high rank military commanders -- are complicit in blockades of absolutely vital aid. Not even because of some 'there might be guns in there!' excuse or whatever they've used to openly block aid deliveries in the past, but simply because they really just don't give a fuck about how many Gazans will starve and die, and they don't even care enough to pretend and lie about it. Depriving civilians of vital supplies is a war crime, by the way. You know, that thing you keep arguing Israel totally doesn't do. The article reads that way. Of course it does not mention that the IDF and police have clashed with the protestors before that [1] [2] [3] [4] and have continued to clash [5]. The protestors from the WP article were removed the day after [6]. The police and IDF have also continued facilitating aid to the strip [7]. 5 out of 7 of those articles are from right-wing outlets with mixed credibility rating according to MBFC (media bias fact check). That puts them on a similar level as Al Jazeera in terms of bias (on the other side of the isle) and credibility. Their reports making Israel look less horrible should be ignored until verified by independent sources. Times of Israel is the only credible source with some left-wing bias and a high credibility rating. That'd be article 3 and 6.
Three are from mixed outlets (JNS and Arutz Sheva). The Jerusalem Post has the same credibility rating as the Washington Post and yet you did not question the credibility of the Washington Post. The clashes are also widely reported on so I do not see much reason to doubt the reports. Here's two more from ToI and Ynet: [1] [2].
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There's been a lot of reaction to this particular incident, which, hey, I'll take it. It is certainly questionable to pretend that there is a huge difference in nature between this and what came before, but I understand media and politics enough to know that they have to save face and pretend that their previous coverage and positions were still legitimate.
Been thinking about this tweet a lot recently
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EPT
