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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On October 09 2023 00:03 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2023 23:44 Nebuchad wrote:
It's also a take that, while true, validates the power of the supremacists. If the far right makes it sufficiently bad for black people, or trans people, to live in a place, then those minorities should probably leave that place. But the issue in this situation isn't what black people and trans people are doing and whether it's the optimal strategy in the face of the oppression they're facing, the issue is the fucking far right. That is not remotely similar. The issue is children who have zero perspective or control over the situation. If some lunatic wants to scream about the sacred qualities of some dirt, I won’t stop them from throwing their lives away. But involving children in that decision makes it suddenly deeply unethical. If it is indeed true that there is no viable mechanism for parents to request refugee status from other nations for their family, then the ethical thing for western nations to do right now is to create that. There is not a safe future for Palestinians living in what they currently call Palestine. It is officially over. It’s time to go. We should do what we can to facilitate that migration.
If you get out, and that is a big if, your problems just start. Palestineans do not have a passport and a nationality. Israel doesn't allow them citizenship and Palestine is no country. So, they literally have no papers that anybody else unterstands or recognizes. It's fun. But, no, there is no way to leave Gaza unless Israel or Egypt allows you to do so, either you are somehow trafficked over the border or you get a permit by the people that imprisoned you there.
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United States43352 Posts
The demographics of Gaza are nuts. If the Palestinian refugees had been taken during the 50s then it could have been resolved much more simply. But by creating a giant prison and giving them nothing to do in there but fuck each other they’ve made the problem 10x bigger. A large proportion of the people in Gaza were too young/not born to vote last time there was an election.
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On October 09 2023 00:17 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2023 00:04 Nebuchad wrote:On October 08 2023 23:54 JimmiC wrote:On October 08 2023 23:44 Nebuchad wrote:
It's also a take that, while true, validates the power of the supremacists. If the far right makes it sufficiently bad for black people, or trans people, to live in a place, then those minorities should probably leave that place. But the issue in this situation isn't what black people and trans people are doing and whether it's the optimal strategy in the face of the oppression they're facing, the issue is the fucking far right. They are being oppressed by Hamas as much or more than Israel . That is not the case obviously, and also if it was the logic would apply in the same way, the problem would be Hamas, not that they're not good enough at fleeing Hamas. On October 09 2023 00:03 Mohdoo wrote:On October 08 2023 23:44 Nebuchad wrote:
It's also a take that, while true, validates the power of the supremacists. If the far right makes it sufficiently bad for black people, or trans people, to live in a place, then those minorities should probably leave that place. But the issue in this situation isn't what black people and trans people are doing and whether it's the optimal strategy in the face of the oppression they're facing, the issue is the fucking far right. That is not remotely similar. The issue is children who have zero perspective or control over the situation. If some lunatic wants to scream about the sacred qualities of some dirt, I won’t stop them from throwing their lives away. But involving children in that decision makes it suddenly deeply unethical. If it is indeed true that there is no viable mechanism for parents to request refugee status from other nations for their family, then the ethical thing for western nations to do right now is to create that. There is not a safe future for Palestinians living in what they currently call Palestine. It is officially over. It’s time to go. We should do what we can to facilitate that migration. Can you explain a little more why you don't think it's remotely similar? It obviously is the case, Hamas is in no way the "good guys", whether that is naivety or you are reading some awful propaganda.
Unfortunately this is a logical fallacy, in which you first came with an agressive statement (the bailey) in which you said that Hamas was more oppressive towards Palestinians than Israel was, and when I reacted against that agressive statement you retreated to a very passive statement (the motte), in which you're saying that Hamas is not the good guys, and you're pretending that this is the statement I was reacting against and attributing qualities to me based on me having reacted to that statement. That is not an interesting setup for an argument.
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On October 09 2023 00:52 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2023 00:33 Nebuchad wrote:On October 09 2023 00:17 JimmiC wrote:On October 09 2023 00:04 Nebuchad wrote:On October 08 2023 23:54 JimmiC wrote:On October 08 2023 23:44 Nebuchad wrote:
It's also a take that, while true, validates the power of the supremacists. If the far right makes it sufficiently bad for black people, or trans people, to live in a place, then those minorities should probably leave that place. But the issue in this situation isn't what black people and trans people are doing and whether it's the optimal strategy in the face of the oppression they're facing, the issue is the fucking far right. They are being oppressed by Hamas as much or more than Israel . That is not the case obviously, and also if it was the logic would apply in the same way, the problem would be Hamas, not that they're not good enough at fleeing Hamas. On October 09 2023 00:03 Mohdoo wrote:On October 08 2023 23:44 Nebuchad wrote:
It's also a take that, while true, validates the power of the supremacists. If the far right makes it sufficiently bad for black people, or trans people, to live in a place, then those minorities should probably leave that place. But the issue in this situation isn't what black people and trans people are doing and whether it's the optimal strategy in the face of the oppression they're facing, the issue is the fucking far right. That is not remotely similar. The issue is children who have zero perspective or control over the situation. If some lunatic wants to scream about the sacred qualities of some dirt, I won’t stop them from throwing their lives away. But involving children in that decision makes it suddenly deeply unethical. If it is indeed true that there is no viable mechanism for parents to request refugee status from other nations for their family, then the ethical thing for western nations to do right now is to create that. There is not a safe future for Palestinians living in what they currently call Palestine. It is officially over. It’s time to go. We should do what we can to facilitate that migration. Can you explain a little more why you don't think it's remotely similar? It obviously is the case, Hamas is in no way the "good guys", whether that is naivety or you are reading some awful propaganda. Unfortunately this is a logical fallacy, in which you first came with an agressive statement (the bailey) in which you said that Hamas was more oppressive towards Palestinians than Israel was, and when I reacted against that agressive statement you retreated to a very passive statement (the motte), in which you're saying that Hamas is not the good guys, and you're pretending that this is the statement I was reacting against and attributing qualities to me based on me having reacted to that statement. That is not an interesting setup for an argument. No I didn't, but honesty is not your thing.
If anything, he was too nice after being called naive or propaganda-addled for a claim he didn't even make or imply.
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Norway28727 Posts
But Nebuchad did not say that Hamas are good guys. Where are you getting that from?
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United States43352 Posts
Fun fact, the median age in Gaza is 18 (17 for women). Most people in Gaza are children who have never experienced anything but growing up under the Hamas dictatorship that their grandparents voted for.
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And most of these children only knew violence their entire life, and they probably don't even (and will never) understand why it's the way it is. All they know is that Israel is bad - regardless of who's to blame.
It's probably extremely hard to live there and not get radicalized, and unfortunately I'm not sure if many of them would ever be able to live peacefully next to Israel, after all this history.
So I don't see any realistic peaceful solutions here - I fell it will either be going on this way for a few decades more, or be resolved in a terrible violent way that will dwarf what's happenning now.
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On October 09 2023 02:46 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2023 01:54 Liquid`Drone wrote:
But Nebuchad did not say that Hamas are good guys. Where are you getting that from? Multiple places, his first comment seems to indicate he does not know that Hamas is as far right as you can get, the second where he says I’m obviously wrong about Hamas being at least as much of the problem and past discussion on this topic. Where do you get the other point of view from?
He's getting it from reading the actual words in my posts.
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United States43352 Posts
On October 08 2023 23:46 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2023 18:59 gobbledydook wrote:
This mess started really because of Britain and France.
In the dying days of the First World War, the Arabs living in what is now Palestine rebelled against their Ottoman overlords while the Ottomans were losing the war. Eventually the Ottomans capitulated and the victors (Britain and France) were given control of the former Ottoman lands outside Turkey proper.
At that time, the majority of people living in Palestine were Arabs, although there was a significant minority of Jews.
Also, in Europe there was a general dislike of Jews, and Britain and France had the idea of shipping them off to their ancestral homeland of Palestine. They then encouraged the migration of Jews, and Britain sought a mandate from the League of Nations to further legitimise their actions. Thus Mandatory Palestine was born.
The Arabs living in Palestine certainly didn't like the idea of Jews moving in, but they couldn't do much due to the British troops stationed there.
Fast forward to the end of World War Two, and an exhausted Britain decided they couldn't afford to station enough troops there to keep the peace, since both the Arabs and the Jews were unhappy with the situation. They also figured that after the Holocaust, they needed some place to put all the displaced Jews and they so decided to split the area into several nations - Egypt, Jordan, and Israel. Jordan was given the West Bank, and Egypt the Gaza strip.
Unfortunately, the Arabs had other ideas, and decided that now that Britain was leaving, it was a good time to destroy the Jews and take their land back. Some of the Jews, having drunk the Zionist coolaid, believed that the entire area of the historical Kingdom of Israel belonged to them, and the Arabs were just squatters in their rightful home. Thus started the numerous wars that saw Israel win every time and annex the West Bank and Gaza, creating the current situation.
I don't think there will be any resolution for long lasting peace, so long as both sides believe the land is theirs, and whoever is right depends on how far back you look in history, so there isn't a correct answer. Mostly fan fiction.
Okay, lot of nonsense to address here.
Firstly, Zionism wasn't initiated by Britain/France. That's not to say there wasn't antisemitism in Europe, it's just that there wasn't any government plan to put all the Jews in Palestine. There also really weren't that many Jews in western Europe in 1921. They existed but there was no "where must we settle this Jewish population" problem to address. Jewish populations were more of an Eastern European thing, that's where the big pogroms were taking place.
Zionism was a product of the emergence of nation states throughout the 19th Century. The movement to take a geographic area and declare that the people living there were one people, often ignoring a fair bit of linguistic and culture evidence that said otherwise, and that the political establishment ruling that area was a natural expression of the voice of said people. Initiated by the creation of France and followed by Italy, Germany, and so forth. Due to the Jewish diaspora they didn't have an existing country of their own and due to antisemitism and the ongoing pogroms, such as the ones in Crimea, they wanted one. And Palestine seemed as good a place as any.
The problem was that Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire until the creation of Mandatory Palestine by the League of Nations, a British administered League state. Britain didn't have any desire to ship all the Jews there, the evidence people always point to is the Balfour declaration which was entirely noncommittal and not accompanied by any actual policy to achieve Israel. Basically Balfour said that in theory he wasn't opposed to Jews living in Palestine.
However the initiative to relocate to Palestine and refound Israel (known as Zionism) was entirely Jewish, and also within the Jewish community somewhat of a fringe idea. Your average German Jew had an entire community with centuries of historical roots in his city, spoke German, and lived a normal life within what was at the time the most advanced economy at the time. The guy at Temple yelling about how great it would be if they all moved to the desert and tried to build a new Israel was not taken seriously, he was not viewed as a serious individual with a serious plan.
The minority of radical Zionists who did actually move to Palestine weren't particularly welcomed by any of the people living there, Palestinian Jews included, because they were basically Qanoners. Zealots who showed up fresh off the boat in Palestine and told all the Jews already living there that they were Jewing wrong but don't worry because the Zionists are here to tell them how to properly Jew and also please can we have some food because this place is a desert and everything I know I learned from the self printed newsletter that the crazy guy in Temple gave me. Nobody already living in Palestine liked the Zionists and it should be readily apparent why, because they're a self selected minority of lunatics. All the normal Jewish people who didn't think it was a great idea to uproot everything and move across the world to reestablish the kingdom from a book two thousand years ago didn't go.
They spent the next decade causing trouble for everyone because their whole reason for being there was to trash the status quo and you couldn't do that without causing trouble for everyone. The people already living there, who had no control over their immigration policy due to their mandate status, requested that the British government stop these qanoners pouring in and the British government did so. So contrary to the insane assertion that the British government was somehow behind Zionism, the historical record clearly reflects that the British administration attempted to slow Zionism in the name of keeping the existing peace. A peace that included Palestinian Muslims and Jews living alongside each other for generations without issues.
Then Hitler comes to power and more Jews start fleeing central Europe. Most of these weren't Zionists, they mostly went to Western Europe or America, but more did go to Palestine at the same time. By this point the Zionists living in Palestine had concluded that the British government, which was protecting the people already living there from them, was the enemy. This resulted in some pretty whacky shit like the Lehi Zionist militia which were allied with the Nazis as part of their guerilla campaign against Britain. Incidentally a former Israeli PM, Yitzhak Shamir, was a member of Lehi.
During WW2 the radical Zionists keep fighting Britain because they recognize Britain as the chief obstacle in their program to create their own ethnostate in the middle of a place where people are already living. Again I want to clarify this was a minority of Jews, most weren't radical Zionists, but the radical Zionists are the main character in this story. This isn't helped by Hitler coming along and gassing the regular people who stayed behind either which turns the minority of radicals into the loudest voice in the room.
After WW2 Britain is utterly exhausted and the American Jewish lobby, rightfully outraged over the Holocaust, turns on Britain's counterterrorism campaign against Zionism. There are too many radicalized Zionists in Palestine at this point and the entire thing is spilling over into open ethnic violence. The Palestinian Jews are also getting caught up in this shit because despite it having nothing to do with them they're incorrectly viewed by the Arabs as being somehow involved in the Zionist invasion of Palestine. The radical former pro-Nazi Zionists believe that if they can just turn this into a full on race war then they can win it and build an Israel. You get shit like the Deir Yassin massacre, also committed by Lehi (the Nazis from above) which was a deliberate attempt to be so outrageous that it forced everyone to pick sides. The radical Zionist terrorism was so outrageous that it was widely condemned by the rest of the Jews in Palestine but their condemnation didn’t matter, the race war plan worked. Violence begat violence as it always does.
Britain nopes the fuck out because there is absolutely no containing this shit and nobody is going to thank them for trying. Everyone meets up for the big "ethnic cleansing" fight and the Zionists win. There’s a round 2 and they win that too. They ethnically cleanse the area and make their nation state.
We have plenty of assholes on both sides and most of the people making decisions today have no blame or responsibility for any of that shit.
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Norway28727 Posts
On October 09 2023 02:46 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2023 01:54 Liquid`Drone wrote:
But Nebuchad did not say that Hamas are good guys. Where are you getting that from? Multiple places, his first comment seems to indicate he does not know that Hamas is as far right as you can get, the second where he says I’m obviously wrong about Hamas being at least as much of the problem and past discussion on this topic. Where do you get the other point of view from?
This conflict does not have to be between a good and a bad guy. I mean a quote from your own post is literally 'There are no good guys fighting here'. Him thinking Israel is a worse oppressor than Hamas (this is what he actually said) does not mean he thinks Hamas is good, at no point did he say this, but it is what you decided to argue against. Honestly it's a very good example of the motte and bailey he pointed towards.
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On October 09 2023 02:54 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2023 02:46 JimmiC wrote:On October 09 2023 01:54 Liquid`Drone wrote:
But Nebuchad did not say that Hamas are good guys. Where are you getting that from? Multiple places, his first comment seems to indicate he does not know that Hamas is as far right as you can get, the second where he says I’m obviously wrong about Hamas being at least as much of the problem and past discussion on this topic. Where do you get the other point of view from? This conflict does not have to be between a good and a bad guy. I mean a quote from your own post is literally 'There are no good guys fighting here'. Him thinking Israel is a worse oppressor than Hamas (this is what he actually said) does not mean he thinks Hamas is good, at no point did he say this, but it is what you decided to argue against. Honestly it's a very good example of the motte and bailey he pointed towards.
He confirmed he thinks Hamas are the good guys here, or do I completely misunderstand what he means?
On October 09 2023 02:48 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2023 02:46 JimmiC wrote:On October 09 2023 01:54 Liquid`Drone wrote:
But Nebuchad did not say that Hamas are good guys. Where are you getting that from? Multiple places, his first comment seems to indicate he does not know that Hamas is as far right as you can get, the second where he says I’m obviously wrong about Hamas being at least as much of the problem and past discussion on this topic. Where do you get the other point of view from? He's getting it from reading the actual words in my posts.
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United States43352 Posts
Hamas worst guys currently involved. But Gaza population <> Hamas.
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The Nazi-Zionist overlap is easily one of the most fascinating things to come out of Israel. Can't help but notice the overlaps with US police.
Israeli far-right supremacists shared selfies posing with guns and messages such as “Tonight we are not Jews, we are Nazis” during the occupation state’s recent crackdown on protestors, a new report by Amnesty International has confirmed.
The report investigated the conduct of Israeli police during May and June’s crackdown on Palestinians. It found that a catalogue of violations were committed by security officials against Palestinians in occupied East Jerusalem, including the use of unlawful force against peaceful protesters, sweeping mass arrests and subjecting detainees to torture and other ill-treatment.
Highlighting the systematic police brutality, the findings are as damning as they are deeply worrying. Israeli police actions were not only repressive, but were also discriminatory, targeting Palestinians disproportionately. The report found that Israeli officials failed to protect Palestinian citizens of Israel from premeditated attacks by groups of armed Jewish supremacists, even when plans were publicised in advance and police knew or should have known of them.
On top of the brutal crackdown, Israeli police also failed to protect Palestinians from Jewish supremacists who had organised attacks and publicised their plans in advance. Amnesty verified 29 text and audio messages on open Telegram channels and WhatsApp revealing how the apps were used to recruit armed men and organise attacks on Palestinians in cities such as Haifa, Acre, Nazareth and Lod between 10 and 21 May (2021).
www.middleeastmonitor.com
It's not like many Palestinians haven't also been trying to peacefully stop Israel's ethnic cleansing of them and getting beaten, tortured, and killed by Zionists for it.
On October 09 2023 03:12 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2023 02:54 Liquid`Drone wrote:On October 09 2023 02:46 JimmiC wrote:On October 09 2023 01:54 Liquid`Drone wrote:
But Nebuchad did not say that Hamas are good guys. Where are you getting that from? Multiple places, his first comment seems to indicate he does not know that Hamas is as far right as you can get, the second where he says I’m obviously wrong about Hamas being at least as much of the problem and past discussion on this topic. Where do you get the other point of view from? This conflict does not have to be between a good and a bad guy. I mean a quote from your own post is literally 'There are no good guys fighting here'. Him thinking Israel is a worse oppressor than Hamas (this is what he actually said) does not mean he thinks Hamas is good, at no point did he say this, but it is what you decided to argue against. Honestly it's a very good example of the motte and bailey he pointed towards. He confirmed he thinks Hamas are the good guys here, or do I completely misunderstand what he means? Show nested quote +On October 09 2023 02:48 Nebuchad wrote:On October 09 2023 02:46 JimmiC wrote:On October 09 2023 01:54 Liquid`Drone wrote:
But Nebuchad did not say that Hamas are good guys. Where are you getting that from? Multiple places, his first comment seems to indicate he does not know that Hamas is as far right as you can get, the second where he says I’m obviously wrong about Hamas being at least as much of the problem and past discussion on this topic. Where do you get the other point of view from? He's getting it from reading the actual words in my posts.
You completely misunderstand.
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On October 09 2023 03:12 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2023 02:54 Liquid`Drone wrote:On October 09 2023 02:46 JimmiC wrote:On October 09 2023 01:54 Liquid`Drone wrote:
But Nebuchad did not say that Hamas are good guys. Where are you getting that from? Multiple places, his first comment seems to indicate he does not know that Hamas is as far right as you can get, the second where he says I’m obviously wrong about Hamas being at least as much of the problem and past discussion on this topic. Where do you get the other point of view from? This conflict does not have to be between a good and a bad guy. I mean a quote from your own post is literally 'There are no good guys fighting here'. Him thinking Israel is a worse oppressor than Hamas (this is what he actually said) does not mean he thinks Hamas is good, at no point did he say this, but it is what you decided to argue against. Honestly it's a very good example of the motte and bailey he pointed towards. He confirmed he thinks Hamas are the good guys here, or do I completely misunderstand what he means? Show nested quote +On October 09 2023 02:48 Nebuchad wrote:On October 09 2023 02:46 JimmiC wrote:On October 09 2023 01:54 Liquid`Drone wrote:
But Nebuchad did not say that Hamas are good guys. Where are you getting that from? Multiple places, his first comment seems to indicate he does not know that Hamas is as far right as you can get, the second where he says I’m obviously wrong about Hamas being at least as much of the problem and past discussion on this topic. Where do you get the other point of view from? He's getting it from reading the actual words in my posts.
Hi Excludos, I do not think that Hamas are the good guys. More generally I think that attributing a moral value to a person, as opposed to actions, is a bit silly, almost never helpful, and shouldn't be entertained seriously.
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EPT
