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This mess started really because of Britain and France. In the dying days of the First World War, the Arabs living in what is now Palestine rebelled against their Ottoman overlords while the Ottomans were losing the war. Eventually the Ottomans capitulated and the victors (Britain and France) were given control of the former Ottoman lands outside Turkey proper. At that time, the majority of people living in Palestine were Arabs, although there was a significant minority of Jews. Also, in Europe there was a general dislike of Jews, and Britain and France had the idea of shipping them off to their ancestral homeland of Palestine. They then encouraged the migration of Jews, and Britain sought a mandate from the League of Nations to further legitimise their actions. Thus Mandatory Palestine was born.
The Arabs living in Palestine certainly didn't like the idea of Jews moving in, but they couldn't do much due to the British troops stationed there.
Fast forward to the end of World War Two, and an exhausted Britain decided they couldn't afford to station enough troops there to keep the peace, since both the Arabs and the Jews were unhappy with the situation. They also figured that after the Holocaust, they needed some place to put all the displaced Jews and they so decided to split the area into several nations - Egypt, Jordan, and Israel. Jordan was given the West Bank, and Egypt the Gaza strip.
Unfortunately, the Arabs had other ideas, and decided that now that Britain was leaving, it was a good time to destroy the Jews and take their land back. Some of the Jews, having drunk the Zionist coolaid, believed that the entire area of the historical Kingdom of Israel belonged to them, and the Arabs were just squatters in their rightful home. Thus started the numerous wars that saw Israel win every time and annex the West Bank and Gaza, creating the current situation.
I don't think there will be any resolution for long lasting peace, so long as both sides believe the land is theirs, and whoever is right depends on how far back you look in history, so there isn't a correct answer.
On October 08 2023 14:19 gobbledydook wrote: And did you know that the Arab countries around Palestine, despite their holier than thought attitude, won't even accept Palestinian refugees?
Your statement is not true. For example, there are many refugee camps for Palestinians in Jordan. -> www.unrwa.org
Indeed, and Jordan refused to integrate them for generations. They've kept them in that reservation for decades and yet I don't see the Arab world in an uproar.
That also is not true. Since 1950, Jordan's population has increased 20-fold. Today approximately 50% of Jordan's population is descended from Palestinian refugees. Most of them do not live in refugee camps.
There are also registered refugees from Palestine in Jordan today who have been granted Jordanian citizenship. Jordan is the only Arab country where this is the case.
Both statements you can find on the german wikipedia with sources. -> de.wikipedia.org
On October 08 2023 17:16 Liquid`Drone wrote: I honestly don't think there's any country in the world that can possibly find a leg to stand on to criticize Jordan's refugee policy (unless they want to argue that taking this many is too costly for them).
So when the refugee crisis hit, Sweden, a far wealthier country with a comparable population accepted something like 5-10% of that amount and then changed their immigration policy because they felt like they couldn't integrate them successfully. Sweden's policy was significantly more welcoming than most/all other EU countries. Yet Jordan not managing to integrate all 2 million palestinian refugees is.. something to criticize them over? I mean Poland has taken a lot of Ukrainians but you're also a much wealthier country than Jordan is, with 3.5 times more inhabitants, so comparably, it'd be like 7 million ukrainians being in Poland right now - that is, without accounting for the wealth disparity.
I honestly don't think there's any country in the world that can possibly find a leg to stand on to criticize Jordan's refugee policy (unless they want to argue that taking this many is too costly for them).
While you obviously have a point it's not comparable to try to integrate Palestinians in Sweden and in Jordan, for many reasons.
And from a children's rights perspective, the idea of parents refusing to move their children away from a dangerous place due to religious reasons isn't really acceptable.
I wonder how many have moved TO Israel for religious reasons smh.
This is a good opening to re-post some stats I compiled in 2020.
Palestinian Population 1948, Present Palestinian Territories 1292000, 4543126 = not an ethnic cleansing
They're moving to Israel because they aren't safe anywhere else in the middle east. There has been a nearly completely ethnic cleansing of the Jewish population in every country except Israel. Meanwhile, the Palestinian population that is supposedly the victims of genocide has almost quadrupled. What an odd way to run a genocide.
I am not disputing, that the Arab world did not react kindly as the State of Israel was founded, because why would they. But also they definetely allowed their Jewish population to leave, which helped to form the population of Israel. Maybe look at the jewish population of those countries before 1948 and you will see, that the arab world was mostly tolerant to their non muslim minorities as long as they didn't start secessions and stuff like that, unlike the christian world. And it doesn't change the way Israel decided to treat their unwanted minority. If you like the way they have done it, you are free to live a few years in Gaza
I suspect most here have been following close enough for this video to give any meaningful information, but for those who don't, or need a 21 minute tl;dr of the attack:
On October 08 2023 14:19 gobbledydook wrote: And did you know that the Arab countries around Palestine, despite their holier than thought attitude, won't even accept Palestinian refugees?
Your statement is not true. For example, there are many refugee camps for Palestinians in Jordan. -> www.unrwa.org
Indeed, and Jordan refused to integrate them for generations. They've kept them in that reservation for decades and yet I don't see the Arab world in an uproar.
Refused for good reason. They are trouble-makers
Hm, seems a very broad negative generalisation to make about an entire ethnic group of people
On October 08 2023 14:19 gobbledydook wrote: And did you know that the Arab countries around Palestine, despite their holier than thought attitude, won't even accept Palestinian refugees?
Your statement is not true. For example, there are many refugee camps for Palestinians in Jordan. -> www.unrwa.org
Indeed, and Jordan refused to integrate them for generations. They've kept them in that reservation for decades and yet I don't see the Arab world in an uproar.
Refused for good reason. They are trouble-makers
Hm, seems a very broad negative generalisation to make about an entire ethnic group of people
Because no country in the Middle East wants a repeat of what happened to Jordan.
Egypt controls their border as well as the tunnels used to supply Gaza strip, and they do not want an influx of refugees coming from Gaza that is/was openly controlled by Hamas. As for some saying Egypt could simply annex the Gaza strip... please.
Also Blinken hasn't confirmed any US Citizens are being held or have been injured/killed in the attacks.
On October 08 2023 14:19 gobbledydook wrote: I don't know why the Palestinian Arabs keep trying. Every time they go to war, they end up losing catastrophically and cede more land. And did you know that the Arab countries around Palestine, despite their holier than thought attitude, won't even accept Palestinian refugees?
its incredibly hopeless.
And from a children's rights perspective, the idea of parents refusing to move their children away from a dangerous place due to religious reasons isn't really acceptable. Genocide is of course terrible and I wish it was not happening, but people need to evacuate.
I know there are barriers to Palestinians being able to leave, but my impression is that many people want to stay. The situation is so far beyond hopeless that I can't label a desire to stay as anything other than insanity.
Can you explain what genocide you're actually talking about?
I should have said ethnic cleansing. Israel seeks to have Palestinians not live there. Either way; every Palestinian parent trying to keep their kids there is a lunatic that should be prevented from harming their children.
If Palestinians are capable of leaving, it is deeeeeeply unethical for them to force their children to stay there
1: They're generally not allowed to leave Gaza. (This is why the Gaza strip is referred to as the world's biggest open air prison). 2: Where would they go? Migrating anywhere without money is actually pretty hopeless, even more so with children.
On October 08 2023 23:24 Liquid`Drone wrote: 1: They're generally not allowed to leave Gaza. (This is why the Gaza strip is referred to as the world's biggest open air prison). 2: Where would they go? Migrating anywhere without money is actually pretty hopeless, even more so with children.
If they try to leave and fail to do so, I don’t blame them. But being a poor refugee is clearly a way better situation than what is currently happening in Palestine.
Am I misunderstanding the situation? One thing I’m having a hard time understanding is what methods of leaving Palestine are available to the Palestinians. Is it really that they have no method of leaving?
It's also a take that, while true, validates the power of the supremacists. If the far right makes it sufficiently bad for black people, or trans people, to live in a place, then those minorities should probably leave that place. But the issue in this situation isn't what black people and trans people are doing and whether it's the optimal strategy in the face of the oppression they're facing, the issue is the fucking far right.
On October 08 2023 18:59 gobbledydook wrote: This mess started really because of Britain and France. In the dying days of the First World War, the Arabs living in what is now Palestine rebelled against their Ottoman overlords while the Ottomans were losing the war. Eventually the Ottomans capitulated and the victors (Britain and France) were given control of the former Ottoman lands outside Turkey proper. At that time, the majority of people living in Palestine were Arabs, although there was a significant minority of Jews. Also, in Europe there was a general dislike of Jews, and Britain and France had the idea of shipping them off to their ancestral homeland of Palestine. They then encouraged the migration of Jews, and Britain sought a mandate from the League of Nations to further legitimise their actions. Thus Mandatory Palestine was born.
The Arabs living in Palestine certainly didn't like the idea of Jews moving in, but they couldn't do much due to the British troops stationed there.
Fast forward to the end of World War Two, and an exhausted Britain decided they couldn't afford to station enough troops there to keep the peace, since both the Arabs and the Jews were unhappy with the situation. They also figured that after the Holocaust, they needed some place to put all the displaced Jews and they so decided to split the area into several nations - Egypt, Jordan, and Israel. Jordan was given the West Bank, and Egypt the Gaza strip.
Unfortunately, the Arabs had other ideas, and decided that now that Britain was leaving, it was a good time to destroy the Jews and take their land back. Some of the Jews, having drunk the Zionist coolaid, believed that the entire area of the historical Kingdom of Israel belonged to them, and the Arabs were just squatters in their rightful home. Thus started the numerous wars that saw Israel win every time and annex the West Bank and Gaza, creating the current situation.
I don't think there will be any resolution for long lasting peace, so long as both sides believe the land is theirs, and whoever is right depends on how far back you look in history, so there isn't a correct answer.
On October 08 2023 23:24 Liquid`Drone wrote: 1: They're generally not allowed to leave Gaza. (This is why the Gaza strip is referred to as the world's biggest open air prison). 2: Where would they go? Migrating anywhere without money is actually pretty hopeless, even more so with children.
If they try to leave and fail to do so, I don’t blame them. But being a poor refugee is clearly a way better situation than what is currently happening in Palestine.
Am I misunderstanding the situation? One thing I’m having a hard time understanding is what methods of leaving Palestine are available to the Palestinians. Is it really that they have no method of leaving?
Yes you're misunderstanding the situation. After Israel unilaterally retreated from the Gaza Strip Hamas took over. As a response Israel and Egypt blockaded the Gaza Strip and the only way to leave is with a permit from either country which is very hard to get. The blockades justification is to prevent attacks from Hamas. They can't really leave and even if they could nobody wants to take them in.
This is the worst the conflict has ever been in my lifetime by far, holy shit. The first Intifada had 200 Israeli and 1200 Palestinian victims in 4 years. The second had 1200/4900 in 6 years. This will be a war. Hamas throwing the little support there still was in the western world for the Palestinians completely under the bus. The capturing and parading around of elderly people and capturing and killing EU and US citizens is a picture you don't want to project, unless you want to martyr yourself.
First German citizen was identified through footage of her being taken on a truck as a trophy, she was most likely already dead, but there's still hope. twitter.com
On October 08 2023 23:24 Liquid`Drone wrote: 1: They're generally not allowed to leave Gaza. (This is why the Gaza strip is referred to as the world's biggest open air prison). 2: Where would they go? Migrating anywhere without money is actually pretty hopeless, even more so with children.
If they try to leave and fail to do so, I don’t blame them. But being a poor refugee is clearly a way better situation than what is currently happening in Palestine.
Am I misunderstanding the situation? One thing I’m having a hard time understanding is what methods of leaving Palestine are available to the Palestinians. Is it really that they have no method of leaving?
Yes you're misunderstanding the situation. After Israel unilaterally retreated from the Gaza Strip Hamas took over. As a response Israel and Egypt blockaded the Gaza Strip and the only way to leave is with a permit from either country which is very hard to get. The blockades justification is to prevent attacks from Hamas. They can't really leave and even if they could nobody wants to take them in.
I should clarify: is there a way for parents to get their children out as refugees of some sort? Rather than just kind of requesting passage? Like some kinda system of leaving Gaza in a controlled way?
On October 08 2023 23:44 Nebuchad wrote: It's also a take that, while true, validates the power of the supremacists. If the far right makes it sufficiently bad for black people, or trans people, to live in a place, then those minorities should probably leave that place. But the issue in this situation isn't what black people and trans people are doing and whether it's the optimal strategy in the face of the oppression they're facing, the issue is the fucking far right.
That is not remotely similar. The issue is children who have zero perspective or control over the situation.
If some lunatic wants to scream about the sacred qualities of some dirt, I won’t stop them from throwing their lives away. But involving children in that decision makes it suddenly deeply unethical.
If it is indeed true that there is no viable mechanism for parents to request refugee status from other nations for their family, then the ethical thing for western nations to do right now is to create that.
There is not a safe future for Palestinians living in what they currently call Palestine. It is officially over. It’s time to go. We should do what we can to facilitate that migration.
On October 08 2023 23:44 Nebuchad wrote: It's also a take that, while true, validates the power of the supremacists. If the far right makes it sufficiently bad for black people, or trans people, to live in a place, then those minorities should probably leave that place. But the issue in this situation isn't what black people and trans people are doing and whether it's the optimal strategy in the face of the oppression they're facing, the issue is the fucking far right.
They are being oppressed by Hamas as much or more than Israel .
That is not the case obviously, and also if it was the logic would apply in the same way, the problem would be Hamas, not that they're not good enough at fleeing Hamas.
On October 08 2023 23:44 Nebuchad wrote: It's also a take that, while true, validates the power of the supremacists. If the far right makes it sufficiently bad for black people, or trans people, to live in a place, then those minorities should probably leave that place. But the issue in this situation isn't what black people and trans people are doing and whether it's the optimal strategy in the face of the oppression they're facing, the issue is the fucking far right.
That is not remotely similar. The issue is children who have zero perspective or control over the situation.
If some lunatic wants to scream about the sacred qualities of some dirt, I won’t stop them from throwing their lives away. But involving children in that decision makes it suddenly deeply unethical.
If it is indeed true that there is no viable mechanism for parents to request refugee status from other nations for their family, then the ethical thing for western nations to do right now is to create that.
There is not a safe future for Palestinians living in what they currently call Palestine. It is officially over. It’s time to go. We should do what we can to facilitate that migration.
Can you explain a little more why you don't think it's remotely similar?
On October 08 2023 23:24 Liquid`Drone wrote: 1: They're generally not allowed to leave Gaza. (This is why the Gaza strip is referred to as the world's biggest open air prison). 2: Where would they go? Migrating anywhere without money is actually pretty hopeless, even more so with children.
If they try to leave and fail to do so, I don’t blame them. But being a poor refugee is clearly a way better situation than what is currently happening in Palestine.
Am I misunderstanding the situation? One thing I’m having a hard time understanding is what methods of leaving Palestine are available to the Palestinians. Is it really that they have no method of leaving?
Yes you're misunderstanding the situation. After Israel unilaterally retreated from the Gaza Strip Hamas took over. As a response Israel and Egypt blockaded the Gaza Strip and the only way to leave is with a permit from either country which is very hard to get. The blockades justification is to prevent attacks from Hamas. They can't really leave and even if they could nobody wants to take them in.
I should clarify: is there a way for parents to get their children out as refugees of some sort? Rather than just kind of requesting passage? Like some kinda system of leaving Gaza in a controlled way?
Not really no. The border is closed from all sides. Most of the permits that are granted are for work and medical reasons.
EPT
