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On October 08 2023 06:37 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2023 06:22 Broetchenholer wrote:
And it gets harder and harder to find any support for the palestinean side I could be mistaken but I'd like to think that's not true. I don't think a ton of people will go back to supporting Apartheid because of some violence. The better comms strategy for them was always that they aren't occupiers, not that the occupied are subhumans who deserve it.
Being resigned to a state of "both sides suck, let them kill each other but leave me out of it" isn't a good place to be for the side armed with rocks and suicide vests.
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There's never been a good place to be for that side. And every politician will keep commenting on this issue, it's unlikely that people will become indifferent. Numb, I guess more likely, but let's face it that was already happening.
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Well the woman seen in the back of a truck has been identified as a German citizen. She was at a concert for peace near the border and has reportedly been killed. I am stunned that the Arab world is not seething at Hamas who have simply burned any goodwill that Europe had towards them and the political support of Palestinian statehood.
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This is going to end badly. I don't know what idiocy Hamas was thinking.
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On October 08 2023 10:37 AssyrianKing wrote:
This is going to end badly. I don't know what idiocy Hamas was thinking.
I think they preached the holy war bullshit for long enough to believe it. They figured what's the point in prolonged conflict when you're just gonna go to heaven for fighting a holy war, so just shoot your shot.
Scenario 1: You destroy Israel and eventually conquer the world, ushering in a new era of human prosperity
Scenario 2: You get completely and totally dumpstered, and die, but who cares because now you're in heaven
More seriously, I think they decided there is no point in the situation continuing as is. They did this knowing it was a suicide mission. They do not see a future for Palestine, so they made it a last hoorah. I hope the Middle East finally does the responsible thing by relocating the Palestinian people and stop pretending this is fair for Palestinians.
Palestinians have been soft-genocide'd for the last how many years? And the supposedly supportive Muslim nations nearby basically just say "straight up dogg, keep it up, grindset is the way, fuck israel frfr" and call it a day. These selfish, virtue signaling shit head governments like the idea of Muslims remaining on this supposedly holy land, but they will do nothing to provide a long-term solution and a reason for these people to get slaughtered and tortured.
Either way, I hope this is the end. At one point someone needs to be the adult in the room and say "Sorry buddy, ya lost. I was rooting for you, but the score is like 100-0 and we aren't gonna make a comeback. Let's at least allow your kids a safe future and relocate you to Egypt or whatever, alright?"
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I don't know why the Palestinian Arabs keep trying. Every time they go to war, they end up losing catastrophically and cede more land. And did you know that the Arab countries around Palestine, despite their holier than thought attitude, won't even accept Palestinian refugees?
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On October 08 2023 14:19 gobbledydook wrote:
I don't know why the Palestinian Arabs keep trying. Every time they go to war, they end up losing catastrophically and cede more land. And did you know that the Arab countries around Palestine, despite their holier than thought attitude, won't even accept Palestinian refugees?
its incredibly hopeless.
And from a children's rights perspective, the idea of parents refusing to move their children away from a dangerous place due to religious reasons isn't really acceptable. Genocide is of course terrible and I wish it was not happening, but people need to evacuate.
I know there are barriers to Palestinians being able to leave, but my impression is that many people want to stay. The situation is so far beyond hopeless that I can't label a desire to stay as anything other than insanity.
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On October 08 2023 10:37 AssyrianKing wrote:
This is going to end badly. I don't know what idiocy Hamas was thinking.
"The day after tomorrow" is whats the largest question mark here, but not in the sense of what Israel is going to do, but what is the plan of the Arabs... It's not that they are complete idiots, they know that the response of the Jews to this kind of action will be brutal, BUT... Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but we have not seen this level of organization and coordination of attacks with the Palestinians before now... we had a huge and coordinated artillery/rocket preparation, which overwhelmed the iron dome along with the simultaneous attack of mobile units on various points along the demarcation line with the use of drones ect.
I don't know how the situation will develop further and whether the Palestinians can achieve anything more looking at territory, but I think that Hamas has achieved its goal. Of course, the Israelis will now bomb them, many civilians will die in Gaza, which is a worthwhile price for Hamas (because they don't look at human sacrifices like we do). However, if Hamas withdraws to Gaza today they have achieved some kind of success (relative to before), for the first time they have defeated the Israelis in a battle, destroyed the myth of their invincibility or 'iron defence'. They will gain new supporters in the West Bank, which also is meaningful to them against their rival Fatah, and most importantly, they seem to be capturing a mountain of Israelis, civilians, soldiers and that general.
Anyone who has watched those documentaries, films and series about captured Israeli soldiers whose release was bargained for for years has seen how touchy this issue is for Israelis. I think that Hamas members in Israeli prisons are hoping for their imminent release. I read somewhere an opinion of some analyst that the goal of this attack was the release of all captured Hamas members. And it doesnt seem that farfetched, Hamas does not have the means to hold ground against Israel. There has to be a reason for all of this.
Seeing how Hezbollah has already stated they will ground attack Israel if the IDF enter Gaza... Things might go extreme or they may simmer down in a day ot two... Depends on how many hostages Hamas took. All in all this is a very different Hamas than the jihadi Anti-Assad one from a few years ago controlled by the Muslim Brotherhood. Seems their whole leadership was replaced with a pro-Teheran current
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On October 08 2023 14:19 gobbledydook wrote:
And did you know that the Arab countries around Palestine, despite their holier than thought attitude, won't even accept Palestinian refugees?
Your statement is not true. For example, there are many refugee camps for Palestinians in Jordan. -> www.unrwa.org
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On October 08 2023 06:22 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2023 05:23 GoTuNk! wrote:On October 08 2023 03:19 Kreuger wrote:
The people thinking this was "allowed" to happen are probably the same thinking GW Bush let 9/11 happen, idiots Sums it up It’s not really comparable. In 2001 there wasn’t a large political bloc whose power, wealth and influence depended on an invasion of Afghanistan. It’d be more like if the US government allowed, or dare I say it, manufactured an incident for Cuba or Vietnam.
It's still a dumb opinion to have. There's no way to know what the political fallout will be. It's the biggest disaster for Israel in decades and at the very least reflects poorly on the current government and Bibi as a prime minister. The same Bibi they need to form a future government. Any disaster on this scale will also lead to an investigation on what went wrong and if they allowed it to happen there's no way it does not get out.
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On October 08 2023 16:27 jodljodl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2023 14:19 gobbledydook wrote:
And did you know that the Arab countries around Palestine, despite their holier than thought attitude, won't even accept Palestinian refugees? Your statement is not true. For example, there are many refugee camps for Palestinians in Jordan. -> www.unrwa.org
Indeed, and Jordan refused to integrate them for generations. They've kept them in that reservation for decades and yet I don't see the Arab world in an uproar.
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Norway28600 Posts
Okay so Jordan is a country with 11 million people, who has taken 2 million palestinian refugees. most, but not all, have been given full citizenship rights, but 18% still live in refugee camps.
So when the refugee crisis hit, Sweden, a far wealthier country with a comparable population accepted something like 5-10% of that amount and then changed their immigration policy because they felt like they couldn't integrate them successfully. Sweden's policy was significantly more welcoming than most/all other EU countries. Yet Jordan not managing to integrate all 2 million palestinian refugees is.. something to criticize them over? I mean Poland has taken a lot of Ukrainians but you're also a much wealthier country than Jordan is, with 3.5 times more inhabitants, so comparably, it'd be like 7 million ukrainians being in Poland right now - that is, without accounting for the wealth disparity.
I honestly don't think there's any country in the world that can possibly find a leg to stand on to criticize Jordan's refugee policy (unless they want to argue that taking this many is too costly for them).
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Okay, it's not as bad as I thought it was. My mistake.
But comparing Sweden accepting Middle-Eastern refugees to Jordan accepting culturally similar refugees from a neighbouring country is probably not fair. Also, the population of Egypt, for example, tripled or quadrupled in that time span. Other Arab countries experienced a similar population growth. If Jordan tried to assimilate the Palestinian refugees, I don't think it would've been much different from a regular population growth that most Arab countries more or less managed.
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On October 08 2023 14:27 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2023 14:19 gobbledydook wrote:
I don't know why the Palestinian Arabs keep trying. Every time they go to war, they end up losing catastrophically and cede more land. And did you know that the Arab countries around Palestine, despite their holier than thought attitude, won't even accept Palestinian refugees? its incredibly hopeless. And from a children's rights perspective, the idea of parents refusing to move their children away from a dangerous place due to religious reasons isn't really acceptable. Genocide is of course terrible and I wish it was not happening, but people need to evacuate. I know there are barriers to Palestinians being able to leave, but my impression is that many people want to stay. The situation is so far beyond hopeless that I can't label a desire to stay as anything other than insanity.
Can you explain what genocide you're actually talking about?
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And from a children's rights perspective, the idea of parents refusing to move their children away from a dangerous place due to religious reasons isn't really acceptable.
I wonder how many have moved TO Israel for religious reasons smh.
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It's nice to imagine a Palestine that could defend itself from Western invasion, but by now we know that's never going to happen. It's nice to image a West that would defend Palestine from Western invasion, but we know that's not going to happen either. The endgame is exile or eradication, with a token population of natives left on reservations. Does that endgame come sooner if the natives fight back instead of dying peacefully? No idea.
Shit sucks.
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It's worth rembering that in 1948 there was about 700k to 1 million Palestinian refuges total (and it's debateble how many are refuges too).
There are 2 million people in the Gaza strip alone today.
There are many times more Palestinians in "exile" today than there were ever arabs living in the total area 80 years ago. Something like 10x as many. Which is part of the problem because the problem is now to big to handle. And indeed organisations like the PLO doesn't want it handled either. If all refuges 80 years ago had been allowed into society and assimilated after say 10 years there wouldn't be a problem today.
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On October 08 2023 17:43 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +And from a children's rights perspective, the idea of parents refusing to move their children away from a dangerous place due to religious reasons isn't really acceptable. I wonder how many have moved TO Israel for religious reasons smh.
This is a good opening to re-post some stats I compiled in 2020.
Jewish population 1948, Present (all numbers grabbed from Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries)Morocco 250000, 2000 = ethnic cleansing Algeria 140000, <50 = ethnic cleansing Tunisia 50000, 1500 = ethnic cleansing Libya 35000, 0 = ethnic cleansing Iraq 135000, 5-7 = ethnic cleansing Egypt 75000, 40 = ethnic cleansing Yemen and Aden 53000, 50 = ethnic cleansing Syria 15000, 17 = ethnic cleansing Lebanon 5000, 100 = ethnic cleansing Bahrain 550, 37 = ethnic cleansing Sudan 350, 0 = ethnic cleansing Afghanistan 5000, 1 = ethnic cleansing Iran 65232 (in 1956), 8756 = ethnic cleansing Turkey 80000, 17300 = ethnic cleansing Palestinian Population 1948, Present Palestinian Territories 1292000, 4543126 = not an ethnic cleansing
They're moving to Israel because they aren't safe anywhere else in the middle east. There has been a nearly completely ethnic cleansing of the Jewish population in every country except Israel. Meanwhile, the Palestinian population that is supposedly the victims of genocide has almost quadrupled. What an odd way to run a genocide.
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What Israel is doing with the illegal settlements is a form of ethnic cleansing, a creeping one but an ethnic cleansing nonetheless. It's certainly not a genocide, though. And I agree, the Arabs are massive hypocrites.
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On October 08 2023 16:50 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2023 16:27 jodljodl wrote:On October 08 2023 14:19 gobbledydook wrote:
And did you know that the Arab countries around Palestine, despite their holier than thought attitude, won't even accept Palestinian refugees? Your statement is not true. For example, there are many refugee camps for Palestinians in Jordan. -> www.unrwa.org Indeed, and Jordan refused to integrate them for generations. They've kept them in that reservation for decades and yet I don't see the Arab world in an uproar.
Refused for good reason. They are trouble-makers
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EPT
