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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
On June 05 2021 04:48 KwarK wrote: I don’t know how you can claim it’s wrong to blame Israel for the conditions in Gaza when Israel is actively blockading shipments of vital aid from reaching Gaza. Israel is actively inflicting these conditions.
My post was not about Gaza , it was a 300 words on Israeli Arabs , in regards to Gaza , i said it is not entirely our fault as a one liner and i followed up in a following post , explaining why.
Regarding the recent blockade , the reason for it is not to purposely harm the civilians of Gaza during this latest 'war' , but the consequences are that they get hurt , in this conflict civilians are the ones that get hurt the most and no doubt that Gaza civilians are having it way worse , sadly.
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In regards to force used vs Gaza and the "you are stronger you should not abuse it" , there needs to be an understanding here , our civilians are being attacked by rockets for years , you can argue that this is our fault and Israel "deserves" to be attacked , it doesnt change the fact that our cities are being bombarded by rockets , and the fact is we retaliate in a very moderate force , it might look brutal when you open CNN , but it really isnt , we can look at other countries response when they are being attacked in any way.
It really is brutal and probably a war crime[s*] (official investigations pending).
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On June 05 2021 06:30 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +In regards to force used vs Gaza and the "you are stronger you should not abuse it" , there needs to be an understanding here , our civilians are being attacked by rockets for years , you can argue that this is our fault and Israel "deserves" to be attacked , it doesnt change the fact that our cities are being bombarded by rockets , and the fact is we retaliate in a very moderate force , it might look brutal when you open CNN , but it really isnt , we can look at other countries response when they are being attacked in any way. It really is brutal and probably a war crime[ s*] ( official investigations pending).
So you quote an event that happened on 2014 when we are discussing current affairs' ? do you want to discuss the 2014 events ? and you also decided , without bias of course , that this was "probably a war crime" ? how did you reach that conclusion ?
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I was expecting to get a reply from greenhorizon or Kwark or others that can give me a better perspective on my posts or their content , but I am getting dragged to try and defend certain acts of the Israeli army across years of conflict , i cannot do it , i am not informed enough on such specific occasion , i will say this , if there was a war crime in 2014 as the link GH provided, then its not right and someone should pay the price , but this just takes this debate to a specific which hunt and not about the overall conflict which i tried to address in my posts.
Also note that the ICC (just reading on it from wiki) is not recognized by Israel , but also not by the USA for example (according to wiki , the US never joined it) :
"As far as America is concerned, the ICC has no jurisdiction, no legitimacy, and no authority. The ICC claims near-universal jurisdiction over the citizens of every country, violating all principles of justice, fairness, and due process. We will never surrender America’s sovereignty to an unelected, unaccountable, global bureaucracy."
GH - i hoped for a discussion on the situation , i have on doubt that the Gaza population is suffering and they shouldnt be and i repeated it several times , i also said we have a part of it , but Hamas does to , and i tried to point out where we had a chance to solve it and why now its harder then ever.
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Your point is taken and I agree with it for the most part, even though I don't like the idea of other people are racist as well. That's a bad argument. The point of discussion is simply how the conflict started and how much guilt Israel has for the current situation. In the end, a pointless discussion, as none of that guilt can enforce any action in the current situation, we strongly disagree on the simple question if Jewish settlers had any guilt in the events towards the Civil War of 1948.
@jimmi: why are your African Americans building their own societies. Why are they not trying to include the Muslim population into their societies? If their differences with the people like their religion, us more important to them then living in peace with the people they are migrating to, then they have also a part of the blame when the two groups can not live peacefully together.
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On June 05 2021 07:13 bluzi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2021 06:30 GreenHorizons wrote:In regards to force used vs Gaza and the "you are stronger you should not abuse it" , there needs to be an understanding here , our civilians are being attacked by rockets for years , you can argue that this is our fault and Israel "deserves" to be attacked , it doesnt change the fact that our cities are being bombarded by rockets , and the fact is we retaliate in a very moderate force , it might look brutal when you open CNN , but it really isnt , we can look at other countries response when they are being attacked in any way. It really is brutal and probably a war crime[ s*] ( official investigations pending). So you quote an event that happened on 2014 when we are discussing current affairs' ? do you want to discuss the 2014 events ? and you also decided , without bias of course , that this was "probably a war crime" ? how did you reach that conclusion ?
I think they are ongoing war crimes engaged in by a settler-colonial apartheid state that's set to make someone (Netanyahu's former chief of staff amid some of his alleged corruption) that's further right/hawkish than Netanyahu who has openly advocated for (what I and others see as ethnic cleansing) via the "Stability Initiative" PM.
For the roughly analogous US example of my perspective, I've previously mentioned "Manifest Destiny" bearing a striking (though certainly not identical) resemblance in both substance and surrounding rhetoric.
If it needs to be said, I think the US acts more egregiously by practically any metric and is clearly indispensable in the perpetuation of these ongoing crimes against humanity.
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On June 05 2021 07:31 Broetchenholer wrote: Your point is taken and I agree with it for the most part, even though I don't like the idea of other people are racist as well. That's a bad argument. The point of discussion is simply how the conflict started and how much guilt Israel has for the current situation. In the end, a pointless discussion, as none of that guilt can enforce any action in the current situation, we strongly disagree on the simple question if Jewish settlers had any guilt in the events towards the Civil War of 1948.
@jimmi: why are your African Americans building their own societies. Why are they not trying to include the Muslim population into their societies? If their differences with the people like their religion, us more important to them then living in peace with the people they are migrating to, then they have also a part of the blame when the two groups can not live peacefully together.
I agree they should all live together in peace. Sadly they don't feel safe without their own nation. Given their history trusting others to provide them safety is hard for them. They would rather take control of half and let Muslims live freely in that. (Future acts of terror on both sides make people question whether or not this was ever their goal but it was in their constitution). Also, given the talk of wiping them all out or sending them all back had only made the two nation state more popular with the African Americans. The UN has backed it and the African Americans did not draw the borders. On top of this when they look around all the countries surrounding Somalia have expressed a deep hatred from Christians and north Americans, they also have claims that the territory should be part of their kingdom. Their is great fear that without creating their own nation Somalia will cease to exist and a different dictator will just take back over from one of the countires around the borders.
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On June 05 2021 06:02 bluzi wrote:Thanks JimmiC for taking the time to read up , you might be the only brave souls in this thread ! First I want to start with a simple statement that is shared with the majority of the population of Israel , Gaza civilians are suffering big time and they shouldn't, no human should be in a situation where he has no real way of changing his life for the better on the back of effort and ability , a kid born in Gaza is born into hopelessness (it happens in other places in the world that no one really cares about unfortunately) , this is clear to any sane person , more over to Israeli citizens , which around 1/2 of them had families that went through the holocaust not long ago. We had a time where we had left wing ruling parties trying their best with the backing of the country to resolve the conflict and create 2 countries that can live side by side (note that we had years of prosperity of commerce with the westbank , so we proved we can live with one another) , after Rabin failed , which was the more famous leader , we actually tried several times more , with the last serious time being the most promising one actually , Ehud Barak and Arafat were in camp david with Clinton , and although Barak really was willing to give up a lot (he was the leader that left the border of Lebanon which we had outposts at) the talks broke down , it is documented by Bill Clinton that Arafat did not came in good will and was the one responsible for the failing peace talks , it is no coincidence that it was found that Arafat wife is living in Paris with millions in her bank account , he was not going to make peace due to personal interest , not long after camp david failed the 2nd intifada started with suicide bombing inside Israel and other terrorist attacks vs civilians , this was the turning point in Israel politics , and the rise of the right wing started , this also started a circle of violence and negligence of peace talks , this in turn made Hamas more relevant on the Gaza side until they took over , today Gaza and westbank are basically 2 different "countries" , their leaderships are basically enemies , and if things continue to be bad i have no doubt that Hamas will takeover the westbank as well. The problem we have in Israel is that the right wing took over the "normal' population , in which i mean normal ppl who want normal life believe now that there is no chance to talk to Hamas and in turn they wont vote for left wing parties , the ppl who live in the south part of israel who get bombarded by rockets are going right , this in turn make the cost of voting right wing very expensive for everyone as some of the parties that join the "Likud" as part of the government are the crazy settler's and they get funding by the right wing ruling party. Think of it like world war with Japan or twin towers bombing or Iraq invasion , once the US or its interests got attacked the reaction was brutal and not proportional to make a point of "you will not attack the USA and get away with it" I believe the majority of the USA population was behind the retaliation as attacks vs your country triggers a will to retaliate , so when Israel was attacked by suicide bombers the instinctive reaction of the public was to be behind the retaliation , but years goes by and i think everyone are again fed up with the "you throw a rocket on me ill bomb you back" and hopefully we can make something happen in this go around , the popular opinion is that we need to make peace with the westbank first , that will hopefully show the Gaza population that things can be different and better , but for now it looks like Hamas has no interest of making peace as Arafat didnt , they get paid a lot of money to keep fighting and are considered the elite in Gaza , basically Hamas is the ruling party in a Gaza dictatorship , they are not going to give it up easily , they parade the conflict as the reason to rule. In regards to force used vs Gaza and the "you are stronger you should not abuse it" , there needs to be an understanding here , our civilians are being attacked by rockets for years , you can argue that this is our fault and Israel "deserves" to be attacked , it doesnt change the fact that our cities are being bombarded by rockets , and the fact is we retaliate in a very moderate force , it might look brutal when you open CNN , but it really isnt , we can look at other countries response when they are being attacked in any way. The USA went to war on the back of 1 terrorist attack , did we talk about why it was done , does the US citizen even care ? should he care ? would you care ? not saying that their reasons were valid , as of course they werent and it was a hideous act of terrorism , I am saying their reasoning didnt matter and no one wouldve cared if they did provide one , if for example the bombing was done by an Iraqi group that would claim that the US invaded their country and killed 250,000 people with no reason , and this is their retaliation to it , what would the general public think ? my guess the public would want retaliation without even addressing the "why" , JimmiC , do you think in such scenario the American public will have a conversation on the validity of the terrorist attack claims ? if for example some of the claims of the terrorists were just , hypothetical , i.e the USA did indeed something wrong to some other population somewhere in the world , would you say the public/government will be OK with the twin tower bombing ? or would they want brutal retaliation ? editing here - Point being (hope it was made..not sure i managed to get the point across) , countries and societies get more aggressive when they are being attacked , regardless if they are in the right or wrong or in the middle, this is sadly what is happening in Israel and Gaza societies but without a pause to settle down the aggression into reasonable level , we have cycle after cycle of violence , some our fault some theirs , and both sides are getting more 'right winged" and more militant as time goes on. Back to Israel , I see 3 options going forward , best to worst: 1) we find a way to solve it , probably starting with a westbank country and work from there - this is the best option , giving them a country to live in is the right and moral thing to do. 2) we continue this conflict to a point where the west denounces us and put boycotts and what not , in that scenario we will be going to the east , and China will probably be our new 'sponsor' in the region , our tech industry will work for them instead for the western countries companies and our army will be backed up by CN. 3) we get into another regional war , be it due to Iran or Iran`s proxies or "yom kipur" style war - if we win , we stay , if we lose..... welp.....needless to say that this is a worst case scenario , wars are always shit for everyone involved. I do not disagree with you that the reprisals are not out of line with what the US did after 9/11. I don't disagree that it appears to be a natural reaction of humanity to hit back. I also don't disagree that many places do this and hit back harder stating that "this will teach them never to do x again".
But none of that makes it right and even if people don't care about that, it also just flat out does not work. The US "war on terror" has only increased terror, for every terrorist they kill they create more because that person had a family and now they want to hit back, feel justified to do so and so on. On top of that any civilian casualty creates even more. With Hamas it is the same, this offensive Israel did, did not hurt them, it helped them, it got them more recruits, it got them more money, it made more people turn to them.
In these cases the emotional response of revenge or sending a message is flat out the wrong move strategicly it only strengthens the real enemy and the innocents all suffer, in both nations, and many themselves become the future enemy.
If Isreal really wants peace they need to stop doing bad shit, even if the bad shit is because the other side did bad shit first and they feel justified. They must turn the other cheek. They need to be a better choice for the Palestinian Arabs than Hamas is, right now they are not or at least they are both real bad choices.
If striking back at Hamas makes Hamas stronger in the area then it is clearly the wrong move, not just morally but also strategicly. If Hamas fired rockets and Isreal just sent out food, supplies, and so on they would not only win favour in the area but globally. Instead of a thread arguing about who was worse it would be clear.
This is not easy, it would mean that Israelis would die and their would be no reprisals. But this current action is not stopping future attacks it is doing the opposite. Striking back leads to more future attacks on Israelis and more innocents dead and wounded.
Yes I am suggesting that Isreal should not do counter offensives no matter the terrorist attacks against them. They should continue to invest heavily in the Iron dome and the money spent on these counter offensives should be spent on making it better for the Palestinian Arabs so they are no longer incentivised into helping Hamas. Long term I truly believe it would be be better for everyone and in the short term I don't think more Israelis would die and for sure less civilians in Gaza and the Westbank would.
Nothing would change over night, it might be 10 years, maybe a generation, maybe longer but this current system is not working it just leads to further escalations and the only people who benefit are the warlords on both sides, which is exactly the people the world does not want benefiting.
I'm glad to hear you are voting for the people who are against the offensives. I'm not without empathy for those who have lost friends and family and want revenge. The thing is though I'm also not without empathy for those out side of Isreal who have lost friends and family and want revenge on Israel. But because of the current power imbalance the Israelis are in a much better position to stop this and they can actually do it. The Palestinian Arabs can't vote to stop Hamas and their situation is so hopeless it is easy to see why so many turn to them, having it so horrible is what is making it such fertile ground for terrorism.
+ Show Spoiler +and before someone jumps in to call me a idiot, yes I know hamas was voted in, my point is these attacks were not officially government sponsored, they were attacking before they were voted in, they will after they would be voted out. However, if Isreal put in a government that was against reprisals the Israeli army would stop the attacks.
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The problem with the current approach is that it is the middle road compromise approach trying to not offend as many people as possible. It simply stretches things out for decades and offends everybody.
The two workable approaches as I see it: Making Arabs full citizens, enabling them to police the conflict areas since it is in their best interest. Stopping the conflict by having a compromise solution that lets people live and prosper. This would be my preferred solution to any conflict. Just merge the two areas into one and keep doing that until you have one government. Even if that isn't perfect it is better for most people since any ruling party wants to stay in power and have good tax income.
Genocide. However morally repugnant it is it does work for the side committing it if nobody external gets involved. We can also see from what China is currently doing to Muslims that the global backlash is not very strong against it.
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On June 05 2021 17:50 Yurie wrote: The problem with the current approach is that it is the middle road compromise approach trying to not offend as many people as possible. It simply stretches things out for decades and offends everybody.
The two workable approaches as I see it: Making Arabs full citizens, enabling them to police the conflict areas since it is in their best interest. Stopping the conflict by having a compromise solution that lets people live and prosper. This would be my preferred solution to any conflict. Just merge the two areas into one and keep doing that until you have one government. Even if that isn't perfect it is better for most people since any ruling party wants to stay in power and have good tax income.
Genocide. However morally repugnant it is it does work for the side committing it if nobody external gets involved. We can also see from what China is currently doing to Muslims that the global backlash is not very strong against it. You'd have to be incredibly cynical and pessimistic to consider genocide as a more viable option than a two-state solution.
I'm curious, would you suggest the two Koreas "just merge and get it over with"? Would you say that about China and Taiwan, Russia and Ukraine, etc. (not to say any of these are exactly analogous to Israel/Palestine)? If your answer is that the geopolitics of these areas are a bit too complicated to wave them off, I would agree.
In fact, several political commentators hypothesized that a one-state solution would lead to civil war culminating in genocide (as the Palestinians could achieve majority political power). And whether or not that is a realistic threat, it's not something the Israeli side is willing to gamble on given the violent history of the region, and any leader who would even try something like that would instantly lose all political capital.
I do think that a one-state solution would be the preferred option somewhere down the road, once relations have been normalized between the two peoples and enough generations have passed such that no one is indoctrinated to resent the other side anymore.
For the near future though, a two-state solution seems a lot more viable than any other, and that is through peace talks mediated by the US - the same way Israel made peace with Jordan and Egypt. And frankly, I don't think it's going to happen with Netanyahu, nor with Hamas. Personally, I'm hoping both of those lose their seats sooner rather than later.
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On June 05 2021 01:58 Broetchenholer wrote: You are quoting posts and then say "people" say x. I have just told you that i don*t read x in the post you quoted. I am perfectly happy if dangermousecatdog corrects me and tells me that he agrees with your assesment of his post, and then i will apologies to you. But here i did not think your response to the quoted post was warranted.
Also, you are arguing, you are acting as if your statements somehow are just facts, but if you respond to a post with a fact, you are using it to argue against the position maid. And when i believe that the statement is not valid to counter the argument, or not a statement of fact, then i should tell you that.
And to this post, i think you are still not understanding the argument you want to correct with facts.
I don't read his posts anymore ever since for some bizarre reason he was trying to persuade me that I wrote something I did not. How can one have a conversation when someone isn't replying to something you wrote but to something he wants to pretend you wrote instead? So I cannot agree or disagree. From the sound of it, he is doing the same thing here though.
Whatever the case was, my original post was to point out that maybenexttime presented a link, then disingenuously misrepresented infomation from that link. A strange case of not expecting someone to simply click on the link presented to verify what was writtten.
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On June 06 2021 22:18 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2021 01:58 Broetchenholer wrote: You are quoting posts and then say "people" say x. I have just told you that i don*t read x in the post you quoted. I am perfectly happy if dangermousecatdog corrects me and tells me that he agrees with your assesment of his post, and then i will apologies to you. But here i did not think your response to the quoted post was warranted.
Also, you are arguing, you are acting as if your statements somehow are just facts, but if you respond to a post with a fact, you are using it to argue against the position maid. And when i believe that the statement is not valid to counter the argument, or not a statement of fact, then i should tell you that.
And to this post, i think you are still not understanding the argument you want to correct with facts.
I don't read his posts anymore ever since for some bizarre reason he was trying to persuade me that I wrote something I did not. How can one have a conversation when someone isn't replying to something you wrote but to something he wants to pretend you wrote instead? So I cannot agree or disagree. From the sound of it, he is doing the same thing here though. Whatever the case was, my original post was to point out that maybenexttime presented a link, then disingenuously misrepresented infomation from that link. A strange case of not expecting someone to simply click on the link presented to verify what was writtten. Just the same as usual of you stating innacurate things and me pointing out they are such. If you notice my response to his, I quoted and bolded what I had said younhad said, and go figure, you had said it! People claiming I'm wrong without reading my posts and calling me ignorant is pretty damn hilarious! At least it proves what I've been saying.
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Personally, I don't know what to expect. This can be horrible, or fantastic.
We have a sort-of unity government, a very narrow one, and the new prime minister is a yarmulke-wearing religious man - the first one to hold this office, believe it or not (the rest were secular / traditionalists).
I'm hoping for a positive change, but Bennett has been spicy about Israel-Palestine relationships in the past, so we'll see what happens.
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Israel confirms they have launched more air strikes on Gaza
It comes after an ultranationalist march (the new PM is an ultranationalist as I understand them), crackdown on protests, and "incendiary balloons" launched by Palestinians in occupied Gaza.
On Tuesday, hundreds of Palestinians in Gaza protested against a “provocative” march by Israeli far-right nationalists through occupied East Jerusalem. ...
Tuesday’s so-called “March of the Flags“, which marked the anniversary of Israel’s 1967 occupation of the city’s eastern part, came as tensions remain high over Israel’s planned forced displacement of Palestinian families from the neighbourhood of Sheikh Jarrah.
Ahead of the march, Israeli police forcibly removed dozens of Palestinians from outside the Old City’s Damascus Gate. At least 17 Palestinians were arrested and 33 others were wounded as Israeli police fired stun grenades in the surrounding areas of Damascus Gate.
Hundreds of Jewish ultranationalists participating in the march were heard chanting “Death to Arabs” in Hebrew. In another anti-Palestinian chant, they yelled: “May your village burn.”
www.aljazeera.com
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On June 16 2021 08:35 GreenHorizons wrote:Israel confirms they have launched more air strikes on Gaza https://twitter.com/ajplus/status/1404937277239959554It comes after an ultranationalist march (the new PM is an ultranationalist as I understand them), crackdown on protests, and "incendiary balloons" launched by Palestinians in occupied Gaza. Show nested quote +On Tuesday, hundreds of Palestinians in Gaza protested against a “provocative” march by Israeli far-right nationalists through occupied East Jerusalem. ...
Tuesday’s so-called “March of the Flags“, which marked the anniversary of Israel’s 1967 occupation of the city’s eastern part, came as tensions remain high over Israel’s planned forced displacement of Palestinian families from the neighbourhood of Sheikh Jarrah.
Ahead of the march, Israeli police forcibly removed dozens of Palestinians from outside the Old City’s Damascus Gate. At least 17 Palestinians were arrested and 33 others were wounded as Israeli police fired stun grenades in the surrounding areas of Damascus Gate.
Hundreds of Jewish ultranationalists participating in the march were heard chanting “Death to Arabs” in Hebrew. In another anti-Palestinian chant, they yelled: “May your village burn.” www.aljazeera.com Benny off to a great start...did they provide any reasoning/motive (and by that i mean, can someone clarify what incendiary balloons means)
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On June 16 2021 12:30 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2021 08:35 GreenHorizons wrote:Israel confirms they have launched more air strikes on Gaza https://twitter.com/ajplus/status/1404937277239959554It comes after an ultranationalist march (the new PM is an ultranationalist as I understand them), crackdown on protests, and "incendiary balloons" launched by Palestinians in occupied Gaza. On Tuesday, hundreds of Palestinians in Gaza protested against a “provocative” march by Israeli far-right nationalists through occupied East Jerusalem. ...
Tuesday’s so-called “March of the Flags“, which marked the anniversary of Israel’s 1967 occupation of the city’s eastern part, came as tensions remain high over Israel’s planned forced displacement of Palestinian families from the neighbourhood of Sheikh Jarrah.
Ahead of the march, Israeli police forcibly removed dozens of Palestinians from outside the Old City’s Damascus Gate. At least 17 Palestinians were arrested and 33 others were wounded as Israeli police fired stun grenades in the surrounding areas of Damascus Gate.
Hundreds of Jewish ultranationalists participating in the march were heard chanting “Death to Arabs” in Hebrew. In another anti-Palestinian chant, they yelled: “May your village burn.” www.aljazeera.com Benny off to a great start...did they provide any reasoning/motive (and by that i mean, can someone clarify what incendiary balloons means)
Probably the balloons/kites that carries a fire, intended to land in a field on the other side of the fence, in order to start a fire.
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Some updates: Israel's ongoing illegal occupation and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians has caught a little attention recently with Palestinian prisoners organizing a hunger strike in opposition to Israel's policy of jailing Palestinians without charge or trial indefinitely.
Thirty Palestinian prisoners jailed without charge or trial under Israeli “administrative detention” have launched a hunger strike on Sunday, 25 September to demand an end to the policy, which is currently jailing over 740 Palestinian prisoners under “secret evidence.”
...Administrative detention was first introduced to Palestine by the British colonial mandate before being adopted by the Zionist project. samidoun.net
Israel's killing of innocent children also caught the attention of the UN Human Rights Chief
Almost 40 Palestinian children have been killed so far this year in the occupied territories and in many incidents, Israeli forces appear to use lethal force in a manner that violates international human rights law, UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Michelle Bachelet said.
The United Nations rights chief issued a statement on Thursday expressing “alarm” at the large numbers of Palestinians – particularly children – who have been killed and injured by Israeli forces in occupied Palestinian territory so far this year.
“International humanitarian law is clear. Launching an attack which may be expected to incidentally kill or injure civilians, or damage civilian objects, in disproportionate manner to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated, is prohibited. Such attacks must stop,” Bachelet said.
The UN human rights office has confirmed that among the 48 Palestinians killed in the three-day onslaught from Friday to Sunday, at least 22 were civilians, including 17 children and four women.
Nearly two-thirds of the 360 Palestinians reported injured in the Israeli offensive were civilians, including 151 children, 58 women and 19 older people, the UN said.
www.aljazeera.com
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On October 01 2022 06:12 GreenHorizons wrote: The UN human rights office has confirmed that among the 48 Palestinians killed in the three-day onslaught from Friday to Sunday, at least 22 were civilians, including 17 children and four women.
Nearly two-thirds of the 360 Palestinians reported injured in the Israeli offensive were civilians, including 151 children, 58 women and 19 older people, the UN said. You can tell by addition that women, children, and the elderly are counted as civilians here and adult men are not.
Example 1: “At least 22 civilians, including 17 children and four women” — 17 + 4 = 21.
Example 2: Nearly two thirds of 360 = nearly 240 = 151 children + 58 women + 19 elderly = 228.
That is, if those numbers sound bad, keep in mind that those numbers are already giving Israel a free pass on killing men. If you assume that adult male Palestinian civilians exist, basic logic shows this civilian death toll to be an undercount.
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United States40776 Posts
Bumping for current events.
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