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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
On June 05 2021 04:48 KwarK wrote:
I don’t know how you can claim it’s wrong to blame Israel for the conditions in Gaza when Israel is actively blockading shipments of vital aid from reaching Gaza. Israel is actively inflicting these conditions.
My post was not about Gaza , it was a 300 words on Israeli Arabs , in regards to Gaza , i said it is not entirely our fault as a one liner and i followed up in a following post , explaining why.
Regarding the recent blockade , the reason for it is not to purposely harm the civilians of Gaza during this latest 'war' , but the consequences are that they get hurt , in this conflict civilians are the ones that get hurt the most and no doubt that Gaza civilians are having it way worse , sadly.
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In regards to force used vs Gaza and the "you are stronger you should not abuse it" , there needs to be an understanding here , our civilians are being attacked by rockets for years , you can argue that this is our fault and Israel "deserves" to be attacked , it doesnt change the fact that our cities are being bombarded by rockets , and the fact is we retaliate in a very moderate force , it might look brutal when you open CNN , but it really isnt , we can look at other countries response when they are being attacked in any way.
It really is brutal and probably a war crime[s*] (official investigations pending).
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On June 05 2021 06:30 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +In regards to force used vs Gaza and the "you are stronger you should not abuse it" , there needs to be an understanding here , our civilians are being attacked by rockets for years , you can argue that this is our fault and Israel "deserves" to be attacked , it doesnt change the fact that our cities are being bombarded by rockets , and the fact is we retaliate in a very moderate force , it might look brutal when you open CNN , but it really isnt , we can look at other countries response when they are being attacked in any way. It really is brutal and probably a war crime[ s*] ( official investigations pending).
So you quote an event that happened on 2014 when we are discussing current affairs' ? do you want to discuss the 2014 events ? and you also decided , without bias of course , that this was "probably a war crime" ? how did you reach that conclusion ?
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I was expecting to get a reply from greenhorizon or Kwark or others that can give me a better perspective on my posts or their content , but I am getting dragged to try and defend certain acts of the Israeli army across years of conflict , i cannot do it , i am not informed enough on such specific occasion , i will say this , if there was a war crime in 2014 as the link GH provided, then its not right and someone should pay the price , but this just takes this debate to a specific which hunt and not about the overall conflict which i tried to address in my posts.
Also note that the ICC (just reading on it from wiki) is not recognized by Israel , but also not by the USA for example (according to wiki , the US never joined it) :
"As far as America is concerned, the ICC has no jurisdiction, no legitimacy, and no authority. The ICC claims near-universal jurisdiction over the citizens of every country, violating all principles of justice, fairness, and due process. We will never surrender America’s sovereignty to an unelected, unaccountable, global bureaucracy."
GH - i hoped for a discussion on the situation , i have on doubt that the Gaza population is suffering and they shouldnt be and i repeated it several times , i also said we have a part of it , but Hamas does to , and i tried to point out where we had a chance to solve it and why now its harder then ever.
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Your point is taken and I agree with it for the most part, even though I don't like the idea of other people are racist as well. That's a bad argument. The point of discussion is simply how the conflict started and how much guilt Israel has for the current situation. In the end, a pointless discussion, as none of that guilt can enforce any action in the current situation, we strongly disagree on the simple question if Jewish settlers had any guilt in the events towards the Civil War of 1948.
@jimmi: why are your African Americans building their own societies. Why are they not trying to include the Muslim population into their societies? If their differences with the people like their religion, us more important to them then living in peace with the people they are migrating to, then they have also a part of the blame when the two groups can not live peacefully together.
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On June 05 2021 07:13 bluzi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2021 06:30 GreenHorizons wrote:In regards to force used vs Gaza and the "you are stronger you should not abuse it" , there needs to be an understanding here , our civilians are being attacked by rockets for years , you can argue that this is our fault and Israel "deserves" to be attacked , it doesnt change the fact that our cities are being bombarded by rockets , and the fact is we retaliate in a very moderate force , it might look brutal when you open CNN , but it really isnt , we can look at other countries response when they are being attacked in any way. It really is brutal and probably a war crime[ s*] ( official investigations pending). So you quote an event that happened on 2014 when we are discussing current affairs' ? do you want to discuss the 2014 events ? and you also decided , without bias of course , that this was "probably a war crime" ? how did you reach that conclusion ?
I think they are ongoing war crimes engaged in by a settler-colonial apartheid state that's set to make someone (Netanyahu's former chief of staff amid some of his alleged corruption) that's further right/hawkish than Netanyahu who has openly advocated for (what I and others see as ethnic cleansing) via the "Stability Initiative" PM.
For the roughly analogous US example of my perspective, I've previously mentioned "Manifest Destiny" bearing a striking (though certainly not identical) resemblance in both substance and surrounding rhetoric.
If it needs to be said, I think the US acts more egregiously by practically any metric and is clearly indispensable in the perpetuation of these ongoing crimes against humanity.
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The problem with the current approach is that it is the middle road compromise approach trying to not offend as many people as possible. It simply stretches things out for decades and offends everybody.
The two workable approaches as I see it:
Making Arabs full citizens, enabling them to police the conflict areas since it is in their best interest. Stopping the conflict by having a compromise solution that lets people live and prosper. This would be my preferred solution to any conflict. Just merge the two areas into one and keep doing that until you have one government. Even if that isn't perfect it is better for most people since any ruling party wants to stay in power and have good tax income.
Genocide. However morally repugnant it is it does work for the side committing it if nobody external gets involved. We can also see from what China is currently doing to Muslims that the global backlash is not very strong against it.
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On June 05 2021 17:50 Yurie wrote:
The problem with the current approach is that it is the middle road compromise approach trying to not offend as many people as possible. It simply stretches things out for decades and offends everybody.
The two workable approaches as I see it:
Making Arabs full citizens, enabling them to police the conflict areas since it is in their best interest. Stopping the conflict by having a compromise solution that lets people live and prosper. This would be my preferred solution to any conflict. Just merge the two areas into one and keep doing that until you have one government. Even if that isn't perfect it is better for most people since any ruling party wants to stay in power and have good tax income.
Genocide. However morally repugnant it is it does work for the side committing it if nobody external gets involved. We can also see from what China is currently doing to Muslims that the global backlash is not very strong against it.
You'd have to be incredibly cynical and pessimistic to consider genocide as a more viable option than a two-state solution.
I'm curious, would you suggest the two Koreas "just merge and get it over with"? Would you say that about China and Taiwan, Russia and Ukraine, etc. (not to say any of these are exactly analogous to Israel/Palestine)? If your answer is that the geopolitics of these areas are a bit too complicated to wave them off, I would agree.
In fact, several political commentators hypothesized that a one-state solution would lead to civil war culminating in genocide (as the Palestinians could achieve majority political power). And whether or not that is a realistic threat, it's not something the Israeli side is willing to gamble on given the violent history of the region, and any leader who would even try something like that would instantly lose all political capital.
I do think that a one-state solution would be the preferred option somewhere down the road, once relations have been normalized between the two peoples and enough generations have passed such that no one is indoctrinated to resent the other side anymore.
For the near future though, a two-state solution seems a lot more viable than any other, and that is through peace talks mediated by the US - the same way Israel made peace with Jordan and Egypt. And frankly, I don't think it's going to happen with Netanyahu, nor with Hamas. Personally, I'm hoping both of those lose their seats sooner rather than later.
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On June 05 2021 01:58 Broetchenholer wrote:
You are quoting posts and then say "people" say x. I have just told you that i don*t read x in the post you quoted. I am perfectly happy if dangermousecatdog corrects me and tells me that he agrees with your assesment of his post, and then i will apologies to you. But here i did not think your response to the quoted post was warranted.
Also, you are arguing, you are acting as if your statements somehow are just facts, but if you respond to a post with a fact, you are using it to argue against the position maid. And when i believe that the statement is not valid to counter the argument, or not a statement of fact, then i should tell you that.
And to this post, i think you are still not understanding the argument you want to correct with facts.
I don't read his posts anymore ever since for some bizarre reason he was trying to persuade me that I wrote something I did not. How can one have a conversation when someone isn't replying to something you wrote but to something he wants to pretend you wrote instead? So I cannot agree or disagree. From the sound of it, he is doing the same thing here though.
Whatever the case was, my original post was to point out that maybenexttime presented a link, then disingenuously misrepresented infomation from that link. A strange case of not expecting someone to simply click on the link presented to verify what was writtten.
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Personally, I don't know what to expect. This can be horrible, or fantastic.
We have a sort-of unity government, a very narrow one, and the new prime minister is a yarmulke-wearing religious man - the first one to hold this office, believe it or not (the rest were secular / traditionalists).
I'm hoping for a positive change, but Bennett has been spicy about Israel-Palestine relationships in the past, so we'll see what happens.
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Israel confirms they have launched more air strikes on Gaza
It comes after an ultranationalist march (the new PM is an ultranationalist as I understand them), crackdown on protests, and "incendiary balloons" launched by Palestinians in occupied Gaza.
On Tuesday, hundreds of Palestinians in Gaza protested against a “provocative” march by Israeli far-right nationalists through occupied East Jerusalem.
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Tuesday’s so-called “March of the Flags“, which marked the anniversary of Israel’s 1967 occupation of the city’s eastern part, came as tensions remain high over Israel’s planned forced displacement of Palestinian families from the neighbourhood of Sheikh Jarrah.
Ahead of the march, Israeli police forcibly removed dozens of Palestinians from outside the Old City’s Damascus Gate. At least 17 Palestinians were arrested and 33 others were wounded as Israeli police fired stun grenades in the surrounding areas of Damascus Gate.
Hundreds of Jewish ultranationalists participating in the march were heard chanting “Death to Arabs” in Hebrew. In another anti-Palestinian chant, they yelled: “May your village burn.”
www.aljazeera.com
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On June 16 2021 08:35 GreenHorizons wrote:Israel confirms they have launched more air strikes on Gaza https://twitter.com/ajplus/status/1404937277239959554It comes after an ultranationalist march (the new PM is an ultranationalist as I understand them), crackdown on protests, and "incendiary balloons" launched by Palestinians in occupied Gaza. Show nested quote +On Tuesday, hundreds of Palestinians in Gaza protested against a “provocative” march by Israeli far-right nationalists through occupied East Jerusalem.
...
Tuesday’s so-called “March of the Flags“, which marked the anniversary of Israel’s 1967 occupation of the city’s eastern part, came as tensions remain high over Israel’s planned forced displacement of Palestinian families from the neighbourhood of Sheikh Jarrah.
Ahead of the march, Israeli police forcibly removed dozens of Palestinians from outside the Old City’s Damascus Gate. At least 17 Palestinians were arrested and 33 others were wounded as Israeli police fired stun grenades in the surrounding areas of Damascus Gate.
Hundreds of Jewish ultranationalists participating in the march were heard chanting “Death to Arabs” in Hebrew. In another anti-Palestinian chant, they yelled: “May your village burn.” www.aljazeera.com
Benny off to a great start...did they provide any reasoning/motive (and by that i mean, can someone clarify what incendiary balloons means)
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On June 16 2021 12:30 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2021 08:35 GreenHorizons wrote:Israel confirms they have launched more air strikes on Gaza https://twitter.com/ajplus/status/1404937277239959554It comes after an ultranationalist march (the new PM is an ultranationalist as I understand them), crackdown on protests, and "incendiary balloons" launched by Palestinians in occupied Gaza. On Tuesday, hundreds of Palestinians in Gaza protested against a “provocative” march by Israeli far-right nationalists through occupied East Jerusalem.
...
Tuesday’s so-called “March of the Flags“, which marked the anniversary of Israel’s 1967 occupation of the city’s eastern part, came as tensions remain high over Israel’s planned forced displacement of Palestinian families from the neighbourhood of Sheikh Jarrah.
Ahead of the march, Israeli police forcibly removed dozens of Palestinians from outside the Old City’s Damascus Gate. At least 17 Palestinians were arrested and 33 others were wounded as Israeli police fired stun grenades in the surrounding areas of Damascus Gate.
Hundreds of Jewish ultranationalists participating in the march were heard chanting “Death to Arabs” in Hebrew. In another anti-Palestinian chant, they yelled: “May your village burn.” www.aljazeera.com Benny off to a great start...did they provide any reasoning/motive (and by that i mean, can someone clarify what incendiary balloons means)
Probably the balloons/kites that carries a fire, intended to land in a field on the other side of the fence, in order to start a fire.
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Some updates:
Israel's ongoing illegal occupation and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians has caught a little attention recently with Palestinian prisoners organizing a hunger strike in opposition to Israel's policy of jailing Palestinians without charge or trial indefinitely.
Thirty Palestinian prisoners jailed without charge or trial under Israeli “administrative detention” have launched a hunger strike on Sunday, 25 September to demand an end to the policy, which is currently jailing over 740 Palestinian prisoners under “secret evidence.”
...Administrative detention was first introduced to Palestine by the British colonial mandate before being adopted by the Zionist project.
samidoun.net
Israel's killing of innocent children also caught the attention of the UN Human Rights Chief
Almost 40 Palestinian children have been killed so far this year in the occupied territories and in many incidents, Israeli forces appear to use lethal force in a manner that violates international human rights law, UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Michelle Bachelet said.
The United Nations rights chief issued a statement on Thursday expressing “alarm” at the large numbers of Palestinians – particularly children – who have been killed and injured by Israeli forces in occupied Palestinian territory so far this year.
“International humanitarian law is clear. Launching an attack which may be expected to incidentally kill or injure civilians, or damage civilian objects, in disproportionate manner to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated, is prohibited. Such attacks must stop,” Bachelet said.
The UN human rights office has confirmed that among the 48 Palestinians killed in the three-day onslaught from Friday to Sunday, at least 22 were civilians, including 17 children and four women.
Nearly two-thirds of the 360 Palestinians reported injured in the Israeli offensive were civilians, including 151 children, 58 women and 19 older people, the UN said.
www.aljazeera.com
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On October 01 2022 06:12 GreenHorizons wrote:
The UN human rights office has confirmed that among the 48 Palestinians killed in the three-day onslaught from Friday to Sunday, at least 22 were civilians, including 17 children and four women.
Nearly two-thirds of the 360 Palestinians reported injured in the Israeli offensive were civilians, including 151 children, 58 women and 19 older people, the UN said.
You can tell by addition that women, children, and the elderly are counted as civilians here and adult men are not.
Example 1: “At least 22 civilians, including 17 children and four women” — 17 + 4 = 21.
Example 2: Nearly two thirds of 360 = nearly 240 = 151 children + 58 women + 19 elderly = 228.
That is, if those numbers sound bad, keep in mind that those numbers are already giving Israel a free pass on killing men. If you assume that adult male Palestinian civilians exist, basic logic shows this civilian death toll to be an undercount.
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United States43866 Posts
Bumping for current events.
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EPT
