On October 09 2023 04:45 KwarK wrote:
Dude, what the fuck? Hamas is the worst.
Dude, what the fuck? Hamas is the worst.
There is no point in this discussion any more.
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TheLordofAwesome
Korea (South)2614 Posts
On October 09 2023 04:45 KwarK wrote: Dude, what the fuck? Hamas is the worst. There is no point in this discussion any more. | ||
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KwarK
United States41959 Posts
On October 09 2023 04:58 TheLordofAwesome wrote: You are saying, repeatedly, that if some Arab state were to be turned into the rulers of Israel tomorrow, that there would be no genocidal campaign carried out against the Jews. Seek mental help for this episode. The current violence in Palestine seems to have been some sort of trigger event for you and you’ve lost all connection with reality. I have said literally none of the things you’re claiming I’ve said. | ||
maybenexttime
Poland5419 Posts
On October 09 2023 04:23 KwarK wrote: You can do all sorts of things with maps without genocide. Britain left maps of the EU. They’re just maps. Furthermore I can’t believe that you’d come in here and so brazenly declare your open support for Hitler and the Holocaust. You should be ashamed of yourself. Don’t you know that Hitler is considered a bad guy? Go fuck yourself you Nazi piece of shit. The Arab leaders in 1948 proclaimed that their goal is to drive the Jews into the sea. You're so full of shit. | ||
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KwarK
United States41959 Posts
On October 09 2023 05:01 maybenexttime wrote: Show nested quote + On October 09 2023 04:23 KwarK wrote: You can do all sorts of things with maps without genocide. Britain left maps of the EU. They’re just maps. Furthermore I can’t believe that you’d come in here and so brazenly declare your open support for Hitler and the Holocaust. You should be ashamed of yourself. Don’t you know that Hitler is considered a bad guy? Go fuck yourself you Nazi piece of shit. The Arab leaders in 1948 proclaimed that their goal is to drive the Jews into the sea. You're so full of shit. Okay but I wasn’t one of them so I’m not sure why you think that what they said can be used to interpret my words. Did you think I was one of them? I’ve been pretty clear about what I mean in my own words. If my explanation of what I mean differs from what some Arab in 1948 said then why tell me that I really mean what the dead Arab said? Why can’t the dead Arab speak for himself and I speak for myself? | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland23765 Posts
On October 09 2023 03:49 JimmiC wrote: You continue to miss my point on most things and read them as derogatory as possible. I'm going to continue to believe what I do until someone explicitly states something else, and does flip flop on there later points. If you also now believe Hamas is at least as bad or worse than the Israel's then great for coming around. If you think Hamas is obviously not as bad like Neb than shame on you. It shows you, like him do not understand how mixed the Israelis are compared to how monoethnic Hamas is. But it is not like a remotely care about your blatantly biased opinion of me or others. I do not understand why you continue to crowbar your way into various discussions. Basically no one is left that thinks of you as some reasonable third party. Your biases are just too strong and obvious. Stick to saying what you think and stop trying to think what I think or what others do, you are not good at it. Dude just take the L on this one, you make many a fine post but most seem to think you misrepresented Nebu on this particular occasion, be that intentional or not. It happens, it takes a ‘my bad’ and we move on, rather than digging into years old posts he made. Back to the topic at hand I’m hoping to see some moral courage from various actors given these events and all the complexities that preceded them, I very much am not holding my breath. It’s the usual posturing and appealing to people’s worst desires for lashing out and revenge, with the US et al. doing their usual back Israel to the hilt stance. Hopefully these reprisals are as precisely targeted to deal with those actually responsible for those atrocities rather than the wider Palestinian population. Just horrific human tragedy, it’s getting increasingly difficult based on the persistent approaches taken to see this get properly resolved in any kind of peaceful way in my lifetime | ||
Nebuchad
Switzerland11915 Posts
On October 09 2023 04:55 Mohdoo wrote: Show nested quote + On October 09 2023 00:04 Nebuchad wrote: On October 08 2023 23:54 JimmiC wrote: On October 08 2023 23:44 Nebuchad wrote: It's also a take that, while true, validates the power of the supremacists. If the far right makes it sufficiently bad for black people, or trans people, to live in a place, then those minorities should probably leave that place. But the issue in this situation isn't what black people and trans people are doing and whether it's the optimal strategy in the face of the oppression they're facing, the issue is the fucking far right. They are being oppressed by Hamas as much or more than Israel . That is not the case obviously, and also if it was the logic would apply in the same way, the problem would be Hamas, not that they're not good enough at fleeing Hamas. On October 09 2023 00:03 Mohdoo wrote: On October 08 2023 23:44 Nebuchad wrote: It's also a take that, while true, validates the power of the supremacists. If the far right makes it sufficiently bad for black people, or trans people, to live in a place, then those minorities should probably leave that place. But the issue in this situation isn't what black people and trans people are doing and whether it's the optimal strategy in the face of the oppression they're facing, the issue is the fucking far right. That is not remotely similar. The issue is children who have zero perspective or control over the situation. If some lunatic wants to scream about the sacred qualities of some dirt, I won’t stop them from throwing their lives away. But involving children in that decision makes it suddenly deeply unethical. If it is indeed true that there is no viable mechanism for parents to request refugee status from other nations for their family, then the ethical thing for western nations to do right now is to create that. There is not a safe future for Palestinians living in what they currently call Palestine. It is officially over. It’s time to go. We should do what we can to facilitate that migration. Can you explain a little more why you don't think it's remotely similar? 1) Children simply have no place in any of those. There should not be a single child left to remain in Gaza. The % chance of direct, unfiltered, unrelenting military aggression against Gaza is essentially 100%. However, adults are within their right to risk their lives. But adults are not within their right to risk the lives of children. Protecting children should be the top priority. 2) The chance of succeeding in defense is actually 0%. There needs to be a recognition of the idea that this ship sailed and that this can't be framed as anything more than "going down with the ship". A choice to stay is a choice to die without any room for variability. Thank you for elaborating. The issue that I have is that I believe I could easily apply those two objections to the scenario I described. Recently on Twitter I read some posts about the anniversary of the death of a kid who was killed for being gay growing up in Wyoming. I don't think many would argue that it wouldn't have been a better decision for his folks to leave that place, as opposed to stay there. I remember that one of the trans members of this forum decided to leave the States for Europe because of transphobia in the US. Those decisions are easy to justify, and yet when I discuss deaths and/or violence related to racism, homophobia or transphobia this isn't really what I would want to focus on. | ||
maybenexttime
Poland5419 Posts
On October 09 2023 05:02 KwarK wrote: Show nested quote + On October 09 2023 05:01 maybenexttime wrote: On October 09 2023 04:23 KwarK wrote: You can do all sorts of things with maps without genocide. Britain left maps of the EU. They’re just maps. Furthermore I can’t believe that you’d come in here and so brazenly declare your open support for Hitler and the Holocaust. You should be ashamed of yourself. Don’t you know that Hitler is considered a bad guy? Go fuck yourself you Nazi piece of shit. The Arab leaders in 1948 proclaimed that their goal is to drive the Jews into the sea. You're so full of shit. Okay but I wasn’t one of them so I’m not sure why you think that what they said can be used to interpret my words. Did you think I was one of them? I’ve been pretty clear about what I mean in my own words. If my explanation of what I mean differs from what some Arab in 1948 said then why tell me that I really mean what the dead Arab said? You're a massive jerk. I used an English idiom "wipe X off the map" to describe what the Arab countries were trying to do with Israel and the Jews in Palestine. We both know what the goal was. But you decided to play dumb and take a fucking idiom literally. You're not right in the head. Get some help. Edit: And stop shitting up the thread. You're a mod. Act like it. | ||
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KwarK
United States41959 Posts
I didn’t argue for wiping Israel off the map, all I said was that Israel and the Jewish people are different things and that we shouldn’t conflate the two. We need to understand what someone means and clarify what they envision before assuming genocide. And yet somehow this was the response you just think that the mass murder of everyone in Israel (sorry, 99% of Israel) is fundamentally a justified act. That is sick. I’m against wiping Israel off the map. I’m also against deliberately misunderstanding anyone who opposes the political structure that is Israel and labeling them a Nazi. I’m for asking them what they mean. That doesn’t make me for wiping Israel off the map and it doesn’t make all people who are for that Nazis. | ||
TheLordofAwesome
Korea (South)2614 Posts
On October 09 2023 05:12 KwarK wrote: It’s actually kind of ironic that my suggestion that flying off the handle and yelling about the Holocaust anytime someone talks about getting rid of the political institution that is Israel isn’t constructive resulted in people flying off the handle. The subsequent exchange is extremely good evidence for my point. You can’t just accuse people that you know not to be Nazis of being Nazis by deliberately conflating Israel and the Jewish people. It doesn’t get anywhere. The entire reason for this discussion is due to medieval barbarism deliberately inflicted on thousands of innocent people by one of the two forces still attempting to actively get rid of the political institution that is Israel. So perhaps you can see why "flying off the handle and yelling about the Holocaust anytime someone talks about getting rid of the political institution that is Israel" happens. You are misrepresenting your past words now. Another term would be "lying." You did not actually made any moderation suggestion of any sort. You decided shitposting about how the destruction of Israel wouldn't involve the murder of millions, on today of all days, was the way to go. Then called me a Nazi for saying that the the destruction of Israel would involve genocide, and for accusing you of not caring about the resultant deaths of millions Jews. | ||
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KwarK
United States41959 Posts
On October 09 2023 05:23 TheLordofAwesome wrote: Show nested quote + On October 09 2023 05:12 KwarK wrote: It’s actually kind of ironic that my suggestion that flying off the handle and yelling about the Holocaust anytime someone talks about getting rid of the political institution that is Israel isn’t constructive resulted in people flying off the handle. The subsequent exchange is extremely good evidence for my point. You can’t just accuse people that you know not to be Nazis of being Nazis by deliberately conflating Israel and the Jewish people. It doesn’t get anywhere. The entire reason for this discussion is due to medieval barbarism deliberately inflicted on thousands of innocent people by one of the two forces still attempting to actively get rid of the political institution that is Israel. So perhaps you can see why "flying off the handle and yelling about the Holocaust anytime someone talks about getting rid of the political institution that is Israel" happens. You are misrepresenting your past words now. Another term would be "lying." You did not actually made any moderation suggestion of any sort. You decided shitposting about how the destruction of Israel wouldn't involve the murder of millions, on today of all days, was the way to go. Then called me a Nazi for saying that the the destruction of Israel would involve genocide, and for accusing you of not caring about the resultant deaths of millions Jews. Seek mental help. You’re deep in the episode. I called you random names and ascribed random quotes to you in an effort to make you understand how absurd it was to do that to me. You’ll note I accused you of being in a sexual relationship with Pol Pot. This was not a serious response to your argument, I declined to participate in your argument because I do not accept the premise of the disagreement. I was not at any time arguing the viewpoint you ascribed to me and so I didn’t bother contradicting the viewpoint you put forth. I didn’t call you a Nazi for any point you made, I called you a Nazi because to do so would be absurd and nonsensical, just as it was when you called me one. The two opposing sides of the argument were wholly imagined by you. That’s why it immediately devolved into name calling. There was never any hope for a reasonable discussion between you and the straw man. I was not involved in the argument. I’m still not involved. I’ve still yet to argue against a single thing you’ve said. All I’ve done is blamed you for the droid attack on the Wookiees, and that was in jest. I think the best way forward from here would be for you to take a few days to calm down and then to apologize for coming at me the way you did. And then I will apologize for suggesting that you wanted to reanimate Lenin and kill all the kulaks and take back blaming you for the destruction of Alderaan. | ||
{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + DUBAI—Iranian security officials helped plan Hamas’s Saturday surprise attack on Israel and gave the green light for the assault at a meeting in Beirut last Monday, according to senior members of Hamas and Hezbollah, another Iran-backed militant group. Officers of Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps had worked with Hamas since August to devise the air, land and sea incursions—the most significant breach of Israel’s borders since the 1973 Yom Kippur War—those people said. Details of the operation were refined during several meetings in Beirut attended by IRGC officers and representatives of four Iran-backed militant groups, including Hamas, which holds power in Gaza, and Hezbollah, a Shiite militant group and political faction in Lebanon, they said. U.S. officials say they haven’t seen evidence of Tehran’s involvement. In an interview with CNN that aired Sunday, Secretary of State Antony Blinken said: “We have not yet seen evidence that Iran directed or was behind this particular attack, but there is certainly a long relationship.” “We don’t have any information at this time to corroborate this account,” said a U.S. official of the meetings. A European official and an adviser to the Syrian government, however, gave the same account of Iran’s involvement in the lead-up to the attack as the senior Hamas and Hezbollah members. Asked about the meetings, Mahmoud Mirdawi, a senior Hamas official, said the group planned the attacks on its own. “This is a Palestinian and Hamas decision,” he said. The Iranian delegation at the United Nations in New York didn’t respond to a request for comment. Iran’s supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, has praised the attacks, saying in a post on X, formerly known as Twitter, that the “Zionist regime will be eradicated at the hands of the Palestinian people and the Resistance forces throughout the region.” A direct Iranian role would take Tehran’s long-running conflict with Israel out of the shadows, raising the risk of broader conflict in the Middle East. Senior Israeli security officials have pledged to strike at Iran’s leadership if Tehran is found responsible for killing Israelis. The IRGC’s broader plan is to create a multi-front threat that can strangle Israel from all sides—Hezbollah and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine in the north and Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Hamas in Gaza and the West Bank, according to the senior Hamas and Hezbollah members and an Iranian official. At least 700 Israelis are confirmed dead, and Saturday’s assault has punctured the country’s aura of invincibility and left Israelis questioning how their vaunted security forces could let this happen. Israel has blamed Iran, saying it is behind the attacks, if indirectly. “We know that there were meetings in Syria and in Lebanon with other leaders of the terror armies that surround Israel so obviously it’s easy to understand that they tried to coordinate. The proxies of Iran in our region, they tried to be coordinated as much as possible with Iran,” Israel’s ambassador to the United Nations, Gilad Erdan, said Sunday. Hamas has publicly acknowledged receiving support from Iran. And on Sunday, Iranian President Ebrahim Raisi talked to Palestinian Islamic Jihad leader Ziyad al-Nakhalah and Hamas chief Ismail Haniyeh. Iran has been setting aside other regional conflicts, such as its open feud with Saudi Arabia in Yemen, to devote the IRGC’s foreign resources toward coordinating, financing and arming militias antagonistic to Israel, including Hamas and Hezbollah, the senior Hamas and Hezbollah members said. The U.S. and Israel have designated Hamas and Hezbollah as terrorist organizations. “We are now free to focus on the Zionist entity,” the Iranian official said. “They are now very isolated.” The strike was intended to hit Israel while it appeared distracted by internal political divisions over Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government. It was also aimed at disrupting accelerating U.S.-brokered talks to normalize relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel that Iran saw as threatening, the senior Hamas and Hezbollah members said. Building on peace deals with Egypt and Jordan, expanding Israeli ties with Gulf Arab states could create a chain of American allies linking three key choke points of global trade—the Suez Canal, the Strait of Hormuz, and the Bab Al Mandeb connecting the Red Sea to the Arabian Sea, said Hussein Ibish, senior resident scholar at the Arab Gulf States Institute in Washington. “That’s very bad news for Iran,” Ibish said. “If they could do this, the strategic map changes dramatically to Iran’s detriment.” Leading the effort to wrangle Iran’s foreign proxies under a unified command has been Ismail Qaani, the leader of the IRGC’s international military arm, the Quds Force. Qaani launched coordination among several militias surrounding Israel in April during a meeting in Lebanon, The Wall Street Journal has reported, where Hamas began working more closely with other groups such as Hezbollah for the first time. Around that time, Palestinian groups staged a rare set of limited strikes on Israel from Lebanon and Gaza, under the direction of Iran, said the Iranian official. “It was a roaring success,” the official said. Iran has long backed Hamas but, as a Sunni Muslim group, it had been an outsider among Tehran’s Shia proxies until recent months, when cooperation among the groups accelerated. Representatives of these groups have met with Quds Force leaders at least biweekly in Lebanon since August to discuss this weekend’s attack on Israel and what happens next, they said. Qaani has attended some of those meetings along with Hezbollah’s leader Hassan Nasrallah, Islamic Jihad leader al-Nakhalah, and Saleh al-Arouri, Hamas’s military chief, the militant-group members said. Iranian Foreign Minister Hossein Amir-Abdollahian attended at least two of the meetings, they said. “An attack of such scope could only have happened after months of planning and would not have happened without coordination with Iran,” said Lina Khatib, director of the SOAS Middle East Institute at the University of London. “Hamas, like Hezbollah in Lebanon, does not single-handedly make decisions to engage in war without prior explicit agreement from Iran.” The Palestinian and Lebanese militias’ ability to coordinate with Iran will be tested in the coming days as Israel’s response comes into focus. Egypt, which is trying to mediate in the conflict, has warned Israeli officials that a ground invasion into Gaza would trigger a military response from Hezbollah, opening up a second battlefront, people familiar with the matter said. Israel and Hezbollah exchanged fire briefly on Sunday. Hamas has called on Palestinians in the West Bank and Palestinian citizens of Israel to take up arms and join the fight. There have been limited clashes in the West Bank, but no reports of clashes between Arabs and Jews inside Israel, as happened in May 2021 when Israel and Gaza last engaged in extended combat. The Iranian official said that if Iran were attacked, it would respond with missile strikes on Israel from Lebanon, Yemen and Iran, and send Iranian fighters into Israel from Syria to attack cities in the north and east of Israel. Iran’s backing of a coordinated group of Arab militias is ominous for Israel. In previous conflicts, the Soviet Union was the ultimate patron of Israel’s Arab enemies and was always able to pressure them to reach some type of accommodation or recognize a red line, said Bernard Hudson, a former counterterrorism chief for the Central Intelligence Agency. “The Soviets never considered Israel a permanent foe,” he said. “Iran’s leadership clearly does.” Source edit: Also Tel Aviv airport is under missile attack. | ||
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KwarK
United States41959 Posts
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ChristianS
United States3187 Posts
That said do you really think your normal mocking “try to keep up idiot” tone is the right pitch less than 48 hours after the start of what seems like an ongoing atrocity? Like, near as I can tell hundreds of people are dead. Unknown numbers more are apparently *kidnapped*, which is theoretically preferable to dead but probably quite a bit more panic-inducing for people scared this could have happened to a loved one (assuming it didn’t *in fact* happen to a loved one, which isn’t impossible). It’s not a perfect analogy, but if the date was September 12th, 2001 I’d probably try to avoid using a mocking tone on panicking Americans, even if I thought their rhetoric was fallacious or hysterical or even monstrous. | ||
{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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KwarK
United States41959 Posts
On October 09 2023 06:12 ChristianS wrote: Kwark, I think you’re closer to right in this exchange and TLoA is absolutely doing the bait and switch “opposing Israel on anything means supporting a second Holocaust” trick that Israel defenders have always done. That said do you really think your normal mocking “try to keep up idiot” tone is the right pitch less than 48 hours after the start of what seems like an ongoing atrocity? Like, near as I can tell hundreds of people are dead. Unknown numbers more are apparently *kidnapped*, which is theoretically preferable to dead but probably quite a bit more panic-inducing for people scared this could have happened to a loved one (assuming it didn’t *in fact* happen to a loved one, which isn’t impossible). It’s not a perfect analogy, but if the date was September 12th, 2001 I’d probably try to avoid using a mocking tone on panicking Americans, even if I thought their rhetoric was fallacious or hysterical or even monstrous. Surely you would agree that I have an absolute right to self defence in the context of the wholly unwarranted and unjustified attacks upon me by TLoA. If that means reacting in grossly disproportionate ways then so be it. You’re asking me to consider the broader context and the events leading up to his attack on me but I don’t see how any of those could be relevant. If anything your attempt to bring those up can only be taken as an attempt to deflect and defend his actions, possibly because you hate people of my ethnicity. Have you considered that seeking to understand and explain why he reacted the way he did literally makes you a Nazi? For real though, okay, fine. Also I don’t think you’re a Nazi. | ||
ChristianS
United States3187 Posts
On October 09 2023 06:34 KwarK wrote: Show nested quote + On October 09 2023 06:12 ChristianS wrote: Kwark, I think you’re closer to right in this exchange and TLoA is absolutely doing the bait and switch “opposing Israel on anything means supporting a second Holocaust” trick that Israel defenders have always done. That said do you really think your normal mocking “try to keep up idiot” tone is the right pitch less than 48 hours after the start of what seems like an ongoing atrocity? Like, near as I can tell hundreds of people are dead. Unknown numbers more are apparently *kidnapped*, which is theoretically preferable to dead but probably quite a bit more panic-inducing for people scared this could have happened to a loved one (assuming it didn’t *in fact* happen to a loved one, which isn’t impossible). It’s not a perfect analogy, but if the date was September 12th, 2001 I’d probably try to avoid using a mocking tone on panicking Americans, even if I thought their rhetoric was fallacious or hysterical or even monstrous. Surely you would agree that I have an absolute right to self defence in the context of the wholly unwarranted and unjustified attacks upon me by TLoA. If that means reacting in grossly disproportionate ways then so be it. You’re asking me to consider the broader context and the events leading up to his attack on me but I don’t see how any of those could be relevant. If anything your attempt to bring those up can only be taken as an attempt to deflect and defend his actions, possibly because you hate people of my ethnicity. Have you considered that seeking to understand and explain why he reacted the way he did literally makes you a Nazi? For real though, okay, fine. Also I don’t think you’re a Nazi. Lol, thank you Kwark. | ||
TheLordofAwesome
Korea (South)2614 Posts
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/israel-music-festival-massacre-eyewitness-account | ||
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KwarK
United States41959 Posts
It’s not feasible to put millions of people into filtration camps to weed out the radicalized ones, and even if it were the act of creating those camps may radicalize more. It’s not moral to impose population controls on the people of Gaza but every year that people don’t the crisis gets worse. Forcing the Arab world to take 250,000 refugees 50 years ago may have been tough but failing to do so resulted in 2,500,000 potential refugees. It’s not possible to go house to house clearing terrorists and it’s not productive to flatten buildings. The place must be administered by people other than terrorists but whoever administrates it will have to commit crimes against humanity. It would have to be a police state with all the problems that come with that. We didn’t get here by accident, for decades this has been seen as the least bad option. Just wall the place off so that it can destroy itself in a way that doesn’t offend moral sensibilities. And it’s only gotten worse. The least bad option has gone badly. Hamas must be destroyed, for the sake of the Palestinians as much as for the people of Israel, and if it could be achieved Israel would have already done it. There are no good options, only tragedy. Every good option was killed at one point or another in the last fifty years, all that remains are children in a battlefield killed for the sins of their fathers. It’s difficult to imagine what a country with a median age of 18 even looks like, the average person is a child whose parents were themselves children when they were born. And now there will be a war there. And people will say that the children brought it upon themselves because that is preferable than dealing with the monstrous reality. I don’t believe Israel will destroy Gaza because I don’t believe that Israel would willfully kill a million children in vengeance. And in a decade this will happen again. And again. And again. | ||
SEB2610
59 Posts
On October 08 2023 22:18 WombaT wrote: Show nested quote + On October 08 2023 18:49 SEB2610 wrote: On October 08 2023 16:50 maybenexttime wrote: On October 08 2023 16:27 jodljodl wrote: On October 08 2023 14:19 gobbledydook wrote: And did you know that the Arab countries around Palestine, despite their holier than thought attitude, won't even accept Palestinian refugees? Your statement is not true. For example, there are many refugee camps for Palestinians in Jordan. -> www.unrwa.org Indeed, and Jordan refused to integrate them for generations. They've kept them in that reservation for decades and yet I don't see the Arab world in an uproar. Refused for good reason. They are trouble-makers Hm, seems a very broad negative generalisation to make about an entire ethnic group of people A generalisation can be broad, negative and accurate at the same time; that said, I thought it went without saying that I don’t believe every single one of them to be irredeemable trouble-makers; not all, just too many of them. There is a reason no country is excited at the prospect of immigration of these people. | ||
AssyrianKing
Australia2111 Posts
On October 09 2023 06:46 TheLordofAwesome wrote: Women raped next to the dead bodies of their friends. https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/israel-music-festival-massacre-eyewitness-account Hamas is a terrorist organistation and deserve to be destroyed. | ||
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