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Neneu
Norway492 Posts
On November 04 2020 21:22 sharkie wrote: Biden was only more well liked by the rich and the super rich Amtrak Biden is more liked by the rich and super rich, with his left leaning ideas and taxation? It is hard to believe that, if you have done any research of Biden which haven't been done in bad faith. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
On November 04 2020 21:21 Acrofales wrote: Insofar as I understand things, Biden is well liked. Probably more well-liked than Bernie Sanders. And yes, my own personal political opinion is way more in line with Bernie Sanders than Joe Biden. Biden would be right in the middle of the VVD in the Netherlands, and I have never and will never vote VVD. If he was that well liked he'd likely be doing better. If he's well liked it's among people who aren't voting for him enough for them to be worth caring about. I'm sure moderate Republicans like him well enough but they also probably voted for Trump given the margin we're seeing. Obama might not have been an actual progressive, but he campaigned like one, he didn't endear himself to Republicans like Biden did, and he had an enthusiasm that carried his elections. It's more important to drive enthusiasm and turnout than trying to pry votes off the other party. Democrats will never touch a Republican and Republicans will never touch a Democrat. | ||
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farvacola
United States18857 Posts
On November 04 2020 21:27 Zambrah wrote: If he was that well liked he'd likely be doing better. If he's well liked it's among people who aren't voting for him enough for them to be worth caring about. I'm sure moderate Republicans like him well enough but they also probably voted for Trump given the margin we're seeing. Obama might not have been an actual progressive, but he campaigned like one, he didn't endear himself to Republicans like Biden did, and he had an enthusiasm that carried his elections. It's more important to drive enthusiasm and turnout than trying to pry votes off the other party. Democrats will never touch a Republican and Republicans will never touch a Democrat. This is a pretty good thesis for what Dems need to internalize, this middle way stuff just ain't gonna cut it. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22373 Posts
On November 04 2020 21:25 farvacola wrote: I don't think Biden won the primary because of crossover appeal with Republicans. But because the Democratic party simply has less people further to the left (Bernie) then they have voters who are more centralist.For those interested in shifting the Democrats towards the left, these results are fairly good in the sense that there is clearly very little credence to the crossover appeal tack of folks like Biden. It's gonna take something else, like actually offering a compelling and contrasting vision of how government works. The mistake progressives seem to keep making is thinking they are a majority and its only through tricks and cheats that the centralist keep them out of power. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23957 Posts
On November 04 2020 21:29 farvacola wrote: This is a pretty good thesis for what Dems need to internalize, this middle way stuff just ain't gonna cut it. I swear I said that was supposed to be the lesson from 2016? | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5221 Posts
On November 04 2020 21:27 Zambrah wrote: If he was that well liked he'd likely be doing better. If he's well liked it's among people who aren't voting for him enough for them to be worth caring about. I'm sure moderate Republicans like him well enough but they also probably voted for Trump given the margin we're seeing. Obama might not have been an actual progressive, but he campaigned like one, he didn't endear himself to Republicans like Biden did, and he had an enthusiasm that carried his elections. It's more important to drive enthusiasm and turnout than trying to pry votes off the other party. Democrats will never touch a Republican and Republicans will never touch a Democrat. What about blue states voting for (anti-Trump but still) R to senate? or R states selecting blue? | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On November 04 2020 21:27 Zambrah wrote: If he was that well liked he'd likely be doing better. If he's well liked it's among people who aren't voting for him enough for them to be worth caring about. I'm sure moderate Republicans like him well enough but they also probably voted for Trump given the margin we're seeing. Obama might not have been an actual progressive, but he campaigned like one, he didn't endear himself to Republicans like Biden did, and he had an enthusiasm that carried his elections. It's more important to drive enthusiasm and turnout than trying to pry votes off the other party. Democrats will never touch a Republican and Republicans will never touch a Democrat. I think this misses the mark a bit. Turnout is hitting record highs. The problem isn't turnout, it is in fact appeal. Biden has done better than Clinton did with most demographics. His failure has been geography. Faceplanting so hard with Florida Latinos is, in hindsight, clearly a massive error. He should've leaned harder into appealing to diverse groups in the Sun Belt, but his strategy leaned into winning back the white voters in the Midwest. I don't think Biden won the primary because of crossover appeal with Republicans. But because the Democratic party simply has less people further to the left (Bernie) then they have voters who are more centralist. The mistake progressives seem to keep making is thinking they are a majority and its only through tricks and cheats that the centralist keep them out of power. We'll need to see final turnout numbers to do a real reflection on all of this, but I think this is closer to the truth. Progressives have always been saying that "it's all about turnout" and "our positions are wildly popular". The problem is that when we have such high turnout Trump is still getting a worrying amount of support. I'm skeptical that these voters are somehow going to turn on Trump when you replace Biden with a much more progressive candidate. I think the reality to wake up to isn't necessarily that the Democratic party is horrible at running a race, but that the American public is full of a lot of terrible people that will support a terrible person politically and won't support policies that are provably workable and necessary. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
I agree the progressives deserve their shot at this point though. | ||
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farvacola
United States18857 Posts
On November 04 2020 21:29 Gorsameth wrote: I don't think Biden won the primary because of crossover appeal with Republicans. But because the Democratic party simply has less people further to the left (Bernie) then they have voters who are more centralist. The mistake progressives seem to keep making is thinking they are a majority and its only through tricks and cheats that the centralist keep them out of power. See I disagree with that framing of the issue, I think crafting campaign messages based on estimates of where one stands is dead out of the gate; the best leftist politicians in the US made their own consensus, made their own majority, and then the rest followed. Instead of following that FDR/JFK/LBJ formula, the Dem party engages in navel-gazing self-assessment and then puts forth a platform. Results like these are a pretty strong repudiation of that tactic anywhere outside NY and Cal imo. On November 04 2020 21:30 GreenHorizons wrote: I swear I said that was supposed to be the lesson from 2016? Well yeah, it's basically what I say any time I talk with Dems in person, but the message ain't sticking. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
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KungKras
Sweden484 Posts
On November 04 2020 21:25 farvacola wrote: For those interested in shifting the Democrats towards the left, these results are fairly good in the sense that there is clearly very little credence to the crossover appeal tack of folks like Biden. It's gonna take something else, like actually offering a compelling and contrasting vision of how government works. 100% agree | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23957 Posts
On November 04 2020 21:33 farvacola wrote: What would it take for you to believe that's intentional?See I disagree with that framing of the issue, I think crafting campaign messages based on estimates of where one stands is dead out of the gate; the best leftist politicians in the US made their own consensus, made their own majority, and then the rest followed. Instead of following that FDR/JFK/LBJ formula, the Dem party engages in navel-gazing self-assessment and then puts forth a platform. Results like these are a pretty strong repudiation of that tactic anywhere outside NY and Cal imo. Well yeah, it's basically what I say any time I talk with Dems in person, but the message ain't sticking. | ||
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KungKras
Sweden484 Posts
On November 04 2020 21:29 Gorsameth wrote: I don't think Biden won the primary because of crossover appeal with Republicans. But because the Democratic party simply has less people further to the left (Bernie) then they have voters who are more centralist. The mistake progressives seem to keep making is thinking they are a majority and its only through tricks and cheats that the centralist keep them out of power. But if you do polls on policies that the progressives support like universal healthcare, ending student loan debt, not doing wars, etc, they are overwhelmingly popular, so there is some truth in them actually being a majority but hidden by the media. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On November 04 2020 21:34 Zambrah wrote: Im not under the illusion were a majority but the way Progressives run is clearly a step above the Amy Mcgraths of the Democrat party. I'd argue were the wing of the party worth listening to if they wanted to figure out how to win. Progressives haven't run any notable campaigns outside of progressive urban strongholds. I'm all aboard the "fuck the Dem establishment" train with you. The problem is that 1) I don't see the party's logic coming to the same conclusions as you, and 2) I think progressives are trying to extrapolate their success chances nationally from isolated races in very favorable political terrain. But if you do polls on policies that the progressives support like universal healthcare, ending student loan debt, not doing wars, etc, they are overwhelmingly popular, so there is some truth in them actually being a majority but hidden by the media. SoCiAlIsM. CoMmUnIsM. really though. It's all about messaging. Americans are dumb and Republicans wield this boogeyman messaging like a sledgehammer. Also EC demographics do not find this to be a favorable message. Battleground states currently include WI/MI/PA (three heavily white, blue-collar states), GA/NC (states that are quite conservative as a whole but have significant minority populations), and FL (where the Cuban Latino vote, which is decidedly anti-socialist, is incredibly important, not to mention the rural conservative white folk in much of the state). | ||
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Garbels
Austria653 Posts
On November 04 2020 19:47 Pr0wler wrote: What am I even reading... Trump said, that votes should stop being accepted, not counted... Also he said "as far as I'm concerned I won". That is really far from declaring a win. Just to name a few things that Trump did in his term - removed NAFTA and signed USMCA, massive tax cuts to the middle class, hugely improved the political climate in the middle east. The economy was doing great before COVID, last quarter GDP rebounded from covid with +33.1%. So yeah... if this was done while he was mostly golfing... pretty good acheivement. I don't think thats far at all but just to be sure he also said "We where getting ready to win this election...frankly we did win this election". Its in the video you posted. Anyway lets see how close reality will get to those post election wargames. | ||
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farvacola
United States18857 Posts
On November 04 2020 21:38 GreenHorizons wrote: What would it take for you to believe that's intentional? Depends on what you mean by intentional, power guards itself with intention, but it frequently doesn't understand itself or its provenance. On November 04 2020 21:39 Stratos_speAr wrote: Progressives haven't run any notable campaigns outside of progressive urban strongholds. I'm all aboard the "fuck the Dem establishment" train with you. The problem is that 1) I don't see the party's logic coming to the same conclusions as you, and 2) I think progressives are trying to extrapolate their success chances nationally from isolated races in very favorable political terrain. SoCiAlIsM. CoMmUnIsM. really though. It's all about messaging. Americans are dumb and Republicans wield this boogeyman messaging like a sledgehammer. Also EC demographics do not find this to be a favorable message. Battleground states currently include WI/MI/PA (three heavily white, blue-collar states), GA/NC (states that are quite conservative as a whole but have significant minority populations), and FL (where the Cuban Latino vote, which is decidedly anti-socialist, is incredibly important, not to mention the rural conservative white folk in much of the state). Dems and leftists need to relearn this apparently, gotta get the Clintonism out of our ears and start fighting with weapons that work. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
On November 04 2020 21:39 Stratos_speAr wrote: Progressives haven't run any notable campaigns outside of progressive urban strongholds. I'm all aboard the "fuck the Dem establishment" train with you. The problem is that 1) I don't see the party's logic coming to the same conclusions as you, and 2) I think progressives are trying to extrapolate their success chances nationally from isolated races in very favorable political terrain. I'd argue Obama ran a progressive campaign. He obviously wasn't progressive but he ran like a progressive and used progressive rhetoric, promised change, etc. Obviously it was all disingenuous guff but compare it to the Keep Shit The Same rhetoric of Biden or the boring technocratic blase Hillary and you see a way to galvanize a base of enthusiastic voters. The party will never willingly be progressive, it's against their monetary incentives, but since so many people believe we can only enact change through voting and only by voting within the two political parties I will forever harp on Democrat inefficacy, ineptitude, contemptuousness, etc. Until they lose hard enough to learn their lesson or Republicans fuck the country enough to generate less peaceful lines of change. EDIT: Lets PLEASE stop saying Republicans will shout socialism if we push progressive policy, they'd shout socialism at a rock on the side of the road and their voting base will believe it every time. Building a platform around Republican attacks presumes they can't or won't make up attacks regardless of platform and that their voters will care about the reality over the attacks. We've seen that this election with the absurd notion that Joe Biden is a Socialism... | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23957 Posts
On November 04 2020 21:44 farvacola wrote: Depends on what you mean by intentional, power guards itself with intention, but it frequently doesn't understand itself or its provenance. Basically much like Democrats to Republicans, Progressives are trying to convince people they need to beat. | ||
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pmh
1416 Posts
On November 04 2020 21:39 KungKras wrote: But if you do polls on policies that the progressives support like universal healthcare, ending student loan debt, not doing wars, etc, they are overwhelmingly popular, so there is some truth in them actually being a majority but hidden by the media. Its not so much the platform that is the problem. The progressives have to overcome the negative stigma that they have in american politics. A stigma so big that the conservatives at times campaign on the opponent beeing a socialist even though they very rarely are an actual socialist. "Progressives haven't run any notable campaigns outside of progressive urban strongholds." Sanders kinda did. " I'd argue were the wing of the party worth listening to if they wanted to figure out how to win." Biden could still win,he is still favored with the betting sites. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On November 04 2020 21:45 Zambrah wrote: I'd argue Obama ran a progressive campaign. He obviously wasn't progressive but he ran like a progressive and used progressive rhetoric, promised change, etc. Obviously it was all disingenuous guff but compare it to the Keep Shit The Same rhetoric of Biden or the boring technocratic blase Hillary and you see a way to galvanize a base of enthusiastic voters. The party will never willingly be progressive, it's against their monetary incentives, but since so many people believe we can only enact change through voting and only by voting within the two political parties I will forever harp on Democrat inefficacy, ineptitude, contemptuousness, etc. Until they lose hard enough to learn their lesson or Republicans fuck the country enough to generate less peaceful lines of change. But I don't think this argument necessarily supports the idea that the party needs to pass the baton to the progressive wing. All it tells us is that they are bad at choosing their candidates and need to choose a moderate that is more charismatic and energetic, which isn't what we want either. | ||
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