EPTCoronavirus and You - Page 303
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Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control. It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you. Conspiracy theories and fear mongering will absolutely not be tolerated in this thread. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite fear needlessly. This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here. Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On December 05 2020 05:53 JimmiC wrote: I let you off the hook, but if you really want to continue down this path you should pick a different approach. The more you keep posting it makes it look like you are mad at me for cutting through the BS rather than misrepresenting anything. If you want to keep talking about Covid, there is a bunch of questions to you from people who are not me that you are welcome to answer, or any other experience with Covid you want to talk about. You missed your chance to make me the bad guy, and you are traveling over to that camp by insulting me and trying to make me mad. Move on or be direct, this passive aggressive crap is just embarrassing for you. First of all - besides me knowing the meaning of the expression - I don't know what hook you're talking about. Secondly it's up to me to decide who I respond to or for what reason. It's not up to anyone else. Thirdly, I'm being objective, not passive aggressive. I'm not responsible for the way you or others feel, unless for example I intentionally insult you or gaslight you or something like that. Have I insulted you or gaslit you in some way? Fourthly, I'm not interested in making you or anyone else the bad guy, and I've made no effort towards that. I've objectively laid out the things you said about me that were wrong. It's not my problem if my being objective makes you look bad, and neither it is my intention. It's in your hands to be more truthful when representing other people's positions, not mine. If it helps: I'm interested in reducing human suffering. I'm not going to go into the philosophical aspects of what constitutes "human suffering" because I don't want to and I don't think this thread should be about that, so I'll leave it at that. I think it shouldn't come as a surprise that at no point did I think it would be neccessary for me to say that I care about human well-being. I'd find it strange if someone disagreed with that position, so I always default to assuming that all people care about human well-being, unless proven otherwise. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22065 Posts
On December 05 2020 06:16 Magic Powers wrote: I note you still haven't clarified your position on what measures governments should take.First of all - besides me knowing the meaning of the expression - I don't know what hook you're talking about. Secondly it's up to me to decide who I respond to or for what reason. It's not up to anyone else. Thirdly, I'm being objective, not passive aggressive. I'm not responsible for the way you or others feel, unless for example I intentionally insult you or gaslight you or something like that. Have I insulted you or gaslit you in some way? Fourthly, I'm not interested in making you or anyone else the bad guy, and I've made no effort towards that. I've objectively laid out the things you said about me that were wrong. It's not my problem if my being objective makes you look bad, and neither it is my intention. It's in your hands to be more truthful when representing other people's positions, not mine. If it helps: I'm interested in reducing human suffering. I'm not going to go into the philosophical aspects of what constitutes "human suffering" because I don't want to and I don't think this thread should be about that, so I'll leave it at that. I think it shouldn't come as a surprise that at no point did I think it would be neccessary for me to say that I care about human well-being. I'd find it strange if someone disagreed with that position, so I always default to assuming that all people care about human well-being, unless proven otherwise. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On December 05 2020 06:46 Gorsameth wrote: I note you still haven't clarified your position on what measures governments should take. I have clarified my position before, I believe reasonably extensively. But I'll clarify it again just for you. I'm in favor of lockdowns as a last resort when all else has failed or is reasonably likely to fail. Until that point I prefer the government communicate with the people and businesses as much as possible so policies are effective without becoming an excessive burden (I gave South Korea as an example. Taiwan is an exceptional case in regards to communication). Social distancing recommendations should come before lockdowns since I prefer people to regulate their behavior without being forced. There should be limits on large gatherings, mainly indoors but also partially outdoors. I have no strong stance on mask mandates. Anything else you want me to clarify? | ||
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Lmui
Canada6221 Posts
Richmond is a city in the Vancouver metro area with a very large east chinese immigrant population (>50%). There is a very high amount of social pressure for everyone to socially distance, wear masks, avoid gatherings etc in comparison to other cultures - particularly Indian which makes up a large proportion of FS on the map. The results of that are pretty clear to see. It used to be somewhere between 3-5x or so better last I posted, and now, with the second wave, they're 5-20x better than surrounding regions. They're literally separated by a bridge, no real restrictions on travel between areas. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/uPKVVma.png) They've pretty much completely avoided the second wave that the surrounding areas are going through right now. If you have a compliant population, the "simple" regulations like masks (which the population was doing before a mandate) and social distancing straight up stops covid spread dead. It costs very little and has a gigantic impact. I'm quite sure if there was not such a gigantic reservoir of covid next door and travel was restricted between municipalities that richmond would have covid stamped out within a couple months. The biggest problem is a lot of people in society feel privileged and need to do things that ensure spread continues. edit: fix image link | ||
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StalkerTL
212 Posts
Taiwan began tracing and screen processes before even the first domestic case was discovered. The minute the first case were introduced into Taiwan via a return teacher from Wuhan, Taiwan immediately: - Banned the export of masks - Enforced the rationing of masks so everyone in the country could get a hold of one - Immediately geared up nationalised industries to ramp up production of alcohol for disinfectant purposes - Military was immediately sent to assist in manufacturing of products like face masks as well as using said military to enforce restrictions - Travel was restricted, especially for health workers - Thermal cameras were installed in major transport hubs South Korea was able to do similar measures, notably mobilizing the military in ways a lot of the West cannot as means to boost manpower and to assist in enforcement. The common trend in the West are that the governments are not being proactive about anything. The successful "Western" countries, that is New Zealand and Australia, were the only ones who bothered to act proactively. And Australia is the only country that I am aware of that actually managed to beat a 2nd wave and managed to eradicate it, again by either restricting travel in and out of the state and doing properly enforced lockdowns that are intentionally meant to restrict movement by the population. America's handling has been such a failure because you can lockdown a state and implement restrictions but that's all pointless when you're on one hand doing performative theatre pretending that you want to control the virus and on the other hand don't want to bother people by telling them that they can't visit family during Thanksgiving. And that's really a lot of the "blue" states, a lot of the "red" states aren't even trying that like the Dakotas. Not a single American government has balls like Victoria (who instituted a draconian lockdown to eradicate the virus once and for all), South Australia (who forced a hard weeklong lockdown after 20 cases), or Western Australia (who has blocked all travel into the state). Kind of the same deal with countries like France, what's the point of restrictions, contact tracing, etc when you're getting 4-5 digit cases per day? You've already failed because you didn't bother to act when it was prudent to do so. How long is it going to take for a lockdown to get the virus under control with that number of cases? The political calculus made by a lot of Western politicians is that if the situation is so bad, everyone will just accept to live with it and there's no punishment for letting it get so bad because "it was always meant to be". Everyone has seen that there's really little political punishment once the situation gets bad enough because coronavirus doesn't kill well or fast enough for the wider population to be that concerned about it. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
https://www.luminocity3d.org/WorldPopDen/#3/12.00/10.00 There's a significant correlation between population density and infection rate as well as death rate. So when comparing the effect of different policies or enforcement of policies, it's important to account for differences in population density. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40808-020-00984-7 | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
Density is not the issue, determination is the issue. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On December 05 2020 13:10 Belisarius wrote: And your map tells you that Melbourne is a dense urban area, on par with any major centre in the US besides NY/LA. Which is why it required an extensive lockdown, and why it was walled off during that period. Now it is probably one of the safest places in the world from a covid perspective. Density is not the issue, determination is the issue. Did you read the study, or at least the conclusion? There's a difference in saying a) density is only part of the issue and saying density is b) not the issue or c) not an issue. The former (a) would be true, whereas (c) was found to be false, and (b) would depend on the definition of "the issue". | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
You seem to be here to handwave away any evidence that does not agree with your own bias against harsh measures, and ignore the fact that all the places that have successfully controlled the virus have done so using the exact tools you seem ideologically opposed to. As a citizen of one of those places, I am here to tell you that you are wrong, the same as everyone else doing the same for the last twenty pages. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
https://files.nc.gov/covid/documents/info-for/The-effectiveness-of-face-masks-to-prevent-SARS-CoV.pdf Will be continuing with this one tomorrow: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0269749120334862#sec4 Also on my list is this one, which was posted by someone a few pages earlier: https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/12/02/2015954117 Just stop with the accusations already, you are really annoying me to death. I'm interested in figuring out what's best during this pandemic and you're accusing me of being obstructive while I take several hours out of my schedule almost daily trying to make sense of everything. If you're not interested in the facts then stop bothering me. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
It should not be a surprise that people become less charitable towards you when you insert yourself into every single exchange. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17206 Posts
Warning: content can trigger people who are very serious. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/0Q1MMu9.jpg) | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17206 Posts
On December 06 2020 02:34 JimmiC wrote: It just keeps getting scarier and scarier state side, new records for hospitalizations and ICU's (not just old people) and we have not even seen the whole impact of thanksgiving with winter and christmas around the corner. It is only going to get worse, which is pretty frightening. Here is various health care workers talking about the situation. https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/05/health/us-hospitals-covid-pandemic/index.html its probably worse for healthcare workers in Canada. from the article.... Like many nurses, Butler said having enough personal protective equipment is still a major concern. Many health care workers have had to reuse N95 respirator masks over and over again. Makes you wonder why so many Canadian nurses move to the USA. Probably because conditions for nurses in Canada are worse. SO they move to the USA or work full time in the USA while living in Canada. btw, similar stuff happened with SARS-1 in 2003 in Toronto ( biggest city in Canada ) and the hospitals and various levels of government did fuck all to protect nurses. History is repeating itself. I've linked to sources on all this stuff in previous posts. If any one wants them reposted I will do so. also , re-using masks has been going on in Canada for a while now. https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2020/04/10/health-care-workers-at-two-toronto-hospitals-told-theyll-soon-be-reusing-decontaminated-n95-masks.html Working in the USA remains a very viable options for health care professionals in Canada and especially in Ontario. There is lots of grandstanding and virtue signalling going on these days about our 'heroic front line workers'. This CNN article is a good example. What is being done to protect them? What it comes down to is : they have to protect themselves. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Vivax
22153 Posts
You don't have to be an anti-vaxxer to agree with him. Besides the lack of investigation into rushed vaccine side-effects, he also mentions the effect of widespread spraying of disinfectant on the fertility of mice in a lab setting. The only way I'm getting vaccinated with this one before several years of clinical, animal trials is in chains. Got plenty of shots in my lifetime already, voluntarily (tetanus, hep, fsme alias 'tick-fever' for lack of a better word). I'll pass on this one even if the govt. blackmails me with restrictions. + Show Spoiler + | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
Several of them are also being done in a much less experimental way than others- some of them are being made with the same methods we've used for previous ones, so there's little reason to distrust them. (It is true that the most effective in studies so far are being done using new and unusual methods- I don't entirely blame someone for not wanting to take something that has to be stored at -40 degrees to be usable). | ||
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Lmui
Canada6221 Posts
On December 06 2020 08:42 Vivax wrote: Watched a refreshing video by James Lyons-Weiler. He has according to google sufficient credentials to be taken seriously. You don't have to be an anti-vaxxer to agree with him. Besides the lack of investigation into rushed vaccine side-effects, he also mentions the effect of widespread spraying of disinfectant on the fertility of mice in a lab setting. The only way I'm getting vaccinated with this one before several years of clinical, animal trials is in chains. Got plenty of shots in my lifetime already, voluntarily (tetanus, hep, fsme alias 'tick-fever' for lack of a better word). I'll pass on this one even if the govt. blackmails me with restrictions. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkGB1-YFn1Q&feature=emb_logo When the second result after googling his name and looking at news column is this, it doesn't strike me with confidence. The other results are around his claims that it was an engineered virus by China. He's a lunatic in my eyes. https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/marketplace-anti-vaccination-hidden-camera-washington-1.5429805 "They would love to be able to predict what we have going on. They can't predict [it]," James Lyons-Weiler, a well-known activist who runs a U.S. non-profit anti-vaxx group, said at the Washington event. "Keep their heads spinning." Anti-vaxx is a stupid movement. It's like highly credentialed flat-earthers trying to seem legitimate. This will be the most heavily scrutinized vaccine in history. Regardless though, I'm in my 20s, healthy, not an essential worker, working from home, and not exposed to anyone in a high risk demographic. If people don't want it, that's fine. There's still literally tens of millions who'll get it before me. We're getting one of the mRNA vaccines in Canada, and mRNA is a simple concept. You make your body produce virus parts (The spike protein) and your body reacts to the spike protein. Easy to verify efficacy, and there's no virus in there to cause side effects. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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