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Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control.
It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you.
Conspiracy theories and fear mongering will absolutely not be tolerated in this thread. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite fear needlessly.
This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here.
Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. |
On December 06 2020 08:57 Lmui wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2020 08:42 Vivax wrote:Watched a refreshing video by James Lyons-Weiler. He has according to google sufficient credentials to be taken seriously. You don't have to be an anti-vaxxer to agree with him. Besides the lack of investigation into rushed vaccine side-effects, he also mentions the effect of widespread spraying of disinfectant on the fertility of mice in a lab setting. The only way I'm getting vaccinated with this one before several years of clinical, animal trials is in chains. Got plenty of shots in my lifetime already, voluntarily (tetanus, hep, fsme alias 'tick-fever' for lack of a better word). I'll pass on this one even if the govt. blackmails me with restrictions. + Show Spoiler + When the second result after googling his name and looking at news column is this, it doesn't strike me with confidence. The other results are around his claims that it was an engineered virus by China. He's a lunatic in my eyes. https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/marketplace-anti-vaccination-hidden-camera-washington-1.5429805 Show nested quote +"They would love to be able to predict what we have going on. They can't predict [it]," James Lyons-Weiler, a well-known activist who runs a U.S. non-profit anti-vaxx group, said at the Washington event. "Keep their heads spinning." Anti-vaxx is a stupid movement. It's like highly credentialed flat-earthers trying to seem legitimate. This will be the most heavily scrutinized vaccine in history. Regardless though, I'm in my 20s, healthy, not an essential worker, working from home, and not exposed to anyone in a high risk demographic. If people don't want it, that's fine. There's still literally tens of millions who'll get it before me. We're getting one of the mRNA vaccines in Canada, and mRNA is a simple concept. You make your body produce virus parts (The spike protein) and your body reacts to the spike protein. Easy to verify efficacy, and there's no virus in there to cause side effects.
There's a world of difference between training your natural immunity with attenuated viruses and programming your body to produce a new protein.
I'm not going to stop anyone from being a guinea pig, but it's unacceptable to be forced to be one.
Not to mention it's the first vaccine of this type, came out of rushed development, and there's no democratic process behind its deployment.
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On December 06 2020 10:50 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2020 08:57 Lmui wrote:On December 06 2020 08:42 Vivax wrote:Watched a refreshing video by James Lyons-Weiler. He has according to google sufficient credentials to be taken seriously. You don't have to be an anti-vaxxer to agree with him. Besides the lack of investigation into rushed vaccine side-effects, he also mentions the effect of widespread spraying of disinfectant on the fertility of mice in a lab setting. The only way I'm getting vaccinated with this one before several years of clinical, animal trials is in chains. Got plenty of shots in my lifetime already, voluntarily (tetanus, hep, fsme alias 'tick-fever' for lack of a better word). I'll pass on this one even if the govt. blackmails me with restrictions. + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkGB1-YFn1Q&feature=emb_logo When the second result after googling his name and looking at news column is this, it doesn't strike me with confidence. The other results are around his claims that it was an engineered virus by China. He's a lunatic in my eyes. https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/marketplace-anti-vaccination-hidden-camera-washington-1.5429805 "They would love to be able to predict what we have going on. They can't predict [it]," James Lyons-Weiler, a well-known activist who runs a U.S. non-profit anti-vaxx group, said at the Washington event. "Keep their heads spinning." Anti-vaxx is a stupid movement. It's like highly credentialed flat-earthers trying to seem legitimate. This will be the most heavily scrutinized vaccine in history. Regardless though, I'm in my 20s, healthy, not an essential worker, working from home, and not exposed to anyone in a high risk demographic. If people don't want it, that's fine. There's still literally tens of millions who'll get it before me. We're getting one of the mRNA vaccines in Canada, and mRNA is a simple concept. You make your body produce virus parts (The spike protein) and your body reacts to the spike protein. Easy to verify efficacy, and there's no virus in there to cause side effects. There's a world of difference between training your natural immunity with attenuated viruses and programming your body to produce a new protein. I'm not going to stop anyone from being a guinea pig, but it's unacceptable to be forced to be one. Not to mention it's the first vaccine of this type, came out of rushed development, and there's no democratic process behind its deployment.
If you have worries about the vaccines, I recommend these links to you:
https://blog.petrieflom.law.harvard.edu/2020/08/27/moderna-covid19-vaccine-government-funding/
https://www.10news.com/news/coronavirus/what-are-the-side-effects-of-the-moderna-and-pfizer-covid-vaccines
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On December 06 2020 10:50 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2020 08:57 Lmui wrote:On December 06 2020 08:42 Vivax wrote:Watched a refreshing video by James Lyons-Weiler. He has according to google sufficient credentials to be taken seriously. You don't have to be an anti-vaxxer to agree with him. Besides the lack of investigation into rushed vaccine side-effects, he also mentions the effect of widespread spraying of disinfectant on the fertility of mice in a lab setting. The only way I'm getting vaccinated with this one before several years of clinical, animal trials is in chains. Got plenty of shots in my lifetime already, voluntarily (tetanus, hep, fsme alias 'tick-fever' for lack of a better word). I'll pass on this one even if the govt. blackmails me with restrictions. + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkGB1-YFn1Q&feature=emb_logo When the second result after googling his name and looking at news column is this, it doesn't strike me with confidence. The other results are around his claims that it was an engineered virus by China. He's a lunatic in my eyes. https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/marketplace-anti-vaccination-hidden-camera-washington-1.5429805 "They would love to be able to predict what we have going on. They can't predict [it]," James Lyons-Weiler, a well-known activist who runs a U.S. non-profit anti-vaxx group, said at the Washington event. "Keep their heads spinning." Anti-vaxx is a stupid movement. It's like highly credentialed flat-earthers trying to seem legitimate. This will be the most heavily scrutinized vaccine in history. Regardless though, I'm in my 20s, healthy, not an essential worker, working from home, and not exposed to anyone in a high risk demographic. If people don't want it, that's fine. There's still literally tens of millions who'll get it before me. We're getting one of the mRNA vaccines in Canada, and mRNA is a simple concept. You make your body produce virus parts (The spike protein) and your body reacts to the spike protein. Easy to verify efficacy, and there's no virus in there to cause side effects. There's a world of difference between training your natural immunity with attenuated viruses and programming your body to produce a new protein. I'm not going to stop anyone from being a guinea pig, but it's unacceptable to be forced to be one. Not to mention it's the first vaccine of this type, came out of rushed development, and there's no democratic process behind its deployment.
Can you elaborate on why it’s unacceptable? In my eyes, you have reaped incredible benefits of being admitted into societies governed by the ruling government. You’re not independent and your accomplishments are not purely your own doing. You are subject to the laws and decisions made by the people who you’ve enjoyed the benefits of for so long. Where does your sense of independence come from?
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i'm for vaccination of those who are not already immune; in heavy infected areas, immunization should be at ~ 20% to 30% of pop.
the problem i see here is that the vacc. provides immunity for 3 months then another 2 which is really shitty; to short of a period to be a long term viable solution(both socially and economically).
two times a year mandatory vaccinations with restrictions for those who won't do it(i'm 99% sure those will be enforced) is not a solution to me.
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On December 06 2020 17:56 xM(Z wrote:
i'm for vaccination of those who are not already immune; in heavy infected areas, immunization should be at ~ 20% to 30% of pop.
the problem i see here is that the vacc. provides immunity for 3 months then another 2 which is really shitty; to short of a period to be a long term viable solution(both socially and economically).
two times a year mandatory vaccinations with restrictions for those who won't do it(i'm 99% sure those will be enforced) is not a solution to me.
The protection someone gains from having an infection (called natural immunity) varies depending on the disease, and it varies from person to person. Since this virus is new, we don’t know how long natural immunity might last. Some early evidence—based on some people— seems to suggest that natural immunity may not last very long.
Regarding vaccination, we won’t know how long immunity lasts until we have a vaccine and more data on how well it works.
Both natural immunity and vaccine-induced immunity are important aspects of COVID-19 that experts are trying to learn more about, and CDC will keep the public informed as new evidence becomes available.
From: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/faq.html (I also checked a few more sources and all were open about not knowing.)
So my question is. What is the source that shows the immunity time period?
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On December 06 2020 10:50 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2020 08:57 Lmui wrote:On December 06 2020 08:42 Vivax wrote:Watched a refreshing video by James Lyons-Weiler. He has according to google sufficient credentials to be taken seriously. You don't have to be an anti-vaxxer to agree with him. Besides the lack of investigation into rushed vaccine side-effects, he also mentions the effect of widespread spraying of disinfectant on the fertility of mice in a lab setting. The only way I'm getting vaccinated with this one before several years of clinical, animal trials is in chains. Got plenty of shots in my lifetime already, voluntarily (tetanus, hep, fsme alias 'tick-fever' for lack of a better word). I'll pass on this one even if the govt. blackmails me with restrictions. + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkGB1-YFn1Q&feature=emb_logo When the second result after googling his name and looking at news column is this, it doesn't strike me with confidence. The other results are around his claims that it was an engineered virus by China. He's a lunatic in my eyes. https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/marketplace-anti-vaccination-hidden-camera-washington-1.5429805 "They would love to be able to predict what we have going on. They can't predict [it]," James Lyons-Weiler, a well-known activist who runs a U.S. non-profit anti-vaxx group, said at the Washington event. "Keep their heads spinning." Anti-vaxx is a stupid movement. It's like highly credentialed flat-earthers trying to seem legitimate. This will be the most heavily scrutinized vaccine in history. Regardless though, I'm in my 20s, healthy, not an essential worker, working from home, and not exposed to anyone in a high risk demographic. If people don't want it, that's fine. There's still literally tens of millions who'll get it before me. We're getting one of the mRNA vaccines in Canada, and mRNA is a simple concept. You make your body produce virus parts (The spike protein) and your body reacts to the spike protein. Easy to verify efficacy, and there's no virus in there to cause side effects. There's a world of difference between training your natural immunity with attenuated viruses and programming your body to produce a new protein. I'm not going to stop anyone from being a guinea pig, but it's unacceptable to be forced to be one. Not to mention it's the first vaccine of this type, came out of rushed development, and there's no democratic process behind its deployment.
Most people lack the information on the new vaccines and they seem to think, that because the vaccine hasn't gone 5-10 years in development and cilnical trials, then it's a dangerous existence... You really think the world renowned companies like Pfizer/Biontech, Moderna and all other global pharmaceutical companies producing vaccines would risk their reputation and publish a dangerous vaccine to the population?
I don't know what this stigma is with the word vaccine, that makes people, mostly Anti-Vaxxers jump the gun and propagate almost preaching to others to avoid vaccines like they are the plague.
Yes the new vaccines have not gone 5-10 years in development and clinical trials, but that's just because of the severity of the situation with Covid. World renowned companies have already build the foundations like infrastructure, standards and know-how to speed through clinical trials in emergency situations like the covid pandemic. That doesn't mean that the quality, safety and efficacy of the vaccine is somehow compromised. Companies are doing clinical trials with tens of, if not hundreds of thousands of patients in big trials to assure that quality, safety and efficacy are not compromised. You can never know the long term effects of a product, that's Phase 4 of post-released and post-marketing clinical trials that would accumulate data after the product has been used for years after it's release. That's a normal process for any drug, as well as vaccine....
I would rather believe in the experience of companies that are more then a hundred years old, then the average Joe's suspicions... There is also a lot of information in medical magazines every day, about the efficacy and safety of different treatments to covid as well as vaccines information. If anyone has any doubts go and read the latest information, about the vaccines that get published.
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On December 06 2020 10:50 Vivax wrote:
There's a world of difference between training your natural immunity with attenuated viruses and programming your body to produce a new protein.
I'm not going to stop anyone from being a guinea pig, but it's unacceptable to be forced to be one.
Not to mention it's the first vaccine of this type, came out of rushed development, and there's no democratic process behind its deployment.
mRNA is simply a line of code being read for your cells to produce the protein. Nothing 'programming' is going on. Viruses make use of (hijack) your cellular machinery anyway, so introducing it like this is probably a better way to kickstart immunity against it. Also, there are all these intracellular mechanisms to present non-human molecules to you immune system, that just complete or part of viruses wouldn't be able to do, since they'd never be internalized by your cells.
I'm even daring to guess that strong, averse, potentially (systemic) reactions will be less of a thing because of mRNA vaccines, since it just taps into the natural way of how viruses work instead of just presenting chunks of virus to your body.
I don't like people talking about extremely complex mechanisms your body does to combat disease and how we've learned to exploit it to aid us in the fight with vaccinations with the help of extremely brilliant and hard working people - I barely understand the tip of the iceberg - and then they get reduced to: "There's a world of difference between training your natural immunity with attenuated viruses and programming your body to produce a new protein", without understanding that all these new ways of vaccinating is built on the previous knowledge of vaccinating. The experts know what they're doing. Comments like this is how conspiracy theories are born because people read that shit, also don't understand it and become all paranoid from the big bad pharma.
I'm sure your comment wasn't in bad faith, but I just want to nip that shit in the bud real real fast.
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is it true that the vaccines being produced are supposed to make our bodies build both antibodies and T cells? and that T cells are supposed to last for a long time? sorry im very ignorant in biology.
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So T cells are an extremely complex subset of cells and I'm completely unqualified to talk about them but I can tell you the following. T cells partly help adapt your immunity to disease and have the ability to kill diseased cells.
They can recognize molecules your cells present on their surface and if the molecules are not from ourselves, like from a virus for example, they just give a signal to the cell to kill itself.
Another function is that they can, together with other cells, present the foreign molecules to B cells, which then to some crazy genetic metabolism thing to make antibodies that are able to bind to the foreign object in the body. When the B cells have passed quality control (because some - but I'm not so sure about this anymore so if I'm wrong please correct me - make inefficient antibodies or antibodies that react with molecules we ourselves make) and they can mass produce their anitbodies, they are called plasma cells. It's these plasma cells that basically make it possible to mass bind the foreign molecules with antibodies so the molecules can be broken down. I think it was macrophages who eat foreign objects coated with antibodies, but I'm not completely sure anymore.
Anyway, these are 2 very basic mechanisms and there are many more subsets and other ways how your immunity functions. It's honestly the most complex thing your body does imo.
Tl;dr: to answer your question, that's kind of what every vaccine does, but it's mostly dependent on antibodies and making memory T cells I think, which do last a long time iirc.
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On December 06 2020 15:19 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2020 10:50 Vivax wrote:On December 06 2020 08:57 Lmui wrote:On December 06 2020 08:42 Vivax wrote:Watched a refreshing video by James Lyons-Weiler. He has according to google sufficient credentials to be taken seriously. You don't have to be an anti-vaxxer to agree with him. Besides the lack of investigation into rushed vaccine side-effects, he also mentions the effect of widespread spraying of disinfectant on the fertility of mice in a lab setting. The only way I'm getting vaccinated with this one before several years of clinical, animal trials is in chains. Got plenty of shots in my lifetime already, voluntarily (tetanus, hep, fsme alias 'tick-fever' for lack of a better word). I'll pass on this one even if the govt. blackmails me with restrictions. + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkGB1-YFn1Q&feature=emb_logo When the second result after googling his name and looking at news column is this, it doesn't strike me with confidence. The other results are around his claims that it was an engineered virus by China. He's a lunatic in my eyes. https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/marketplace-anti-vaccination-hidden-camera-washington-1.5429805 "They would love to be able to predict what we have going on. They can't predict [it]," James Lyons-Weiler, a well-known activist who runs a U.S. non-profit anti-vaxx group, said at the Washington event. "Keep their heads spinning." Anti-vaxx is a stupid movement. It's like highly credentialed flat-earthers trying to seem legitimate. This will be the most heavily scrutinized vaccine in history. Regardless though, I'm in my 20s, healthy, not an essential worker, working from home, and not exposed to anyone in a high risk demographic. If people don't want it, that's fine. There's still literally tens of millions who'll get it before me. We're getting one of the mRNA vaccines in Canada, and mRNA is a simple concept. You make your body produce virus parts (The spike protein) and your body reacts to the spike protein. Easy to verify efficacy, and there's no virus in there to cause side effects. There's a world of difference between training your natural immunity with attenuated viruses and programming your body to produce a new protein. I'm not going to stop anyone from being a guinea pig, but it's unacceptable to be forced to be one. Not to mention it's the first vaccine of this type, came out of rushed development, and there's no democratic process behind its deployment. Can you elaborate on why it’s unacceptable? In my eyes, you have reaped incredible benefits of being admitted into societies governed by the ruling government. You’re not independent and your accomplishments are not purely your own doing. You are subject to the laws and decisions made by the people who you’ve enjoyed the benefits of for so long. Where does your sense of independence come from?
That's an argumentation you could apply to any government one is living under, no matter how villainous. Somebody could be criticizing laws in North Korea and you could tell him that (which obviously you wouldn't because it's North Korea but if that's your logic you could apply that to anyone living there).
Not to mention it boils down the issue to collectivism.
On December 06 2020 20:09 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2020 10:50 Vivax wrote:On December 06 2020 08:57 Lmui wrote:On December 06 2020 08:42 Vivax wrote:Watched a refreshing video by James Lyons-Weiler. He has according to google sufficient credentials to be taken seriously. You don't have to be an anti-vaxxer to agree with him. Besides the lack of investigation into rushed vaccine side-effects, he also mentions the effect of widespread spraying of disinfectant on the fertility of mice in a lab setting. The only way I'm getting vaccinated with this one before several years of clinical, animal trials is in chains. Got plenty of shots in my lifetime already, voluntarily (tetanus, hep, fsme alias 'tick-fever' for lack of a better word). I'll pass on this one even if the govt. blackmails me with restrictions. + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkGB1-YFn1Q&feature=emb_logo When the second result after googling his name and looking at news column is this, it doesn't strike me with confidence. The other results are around his claims that it was an engineered virus by China. He's a lunatic in my eyes. https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/marketplace-anti-vaccination-hidden-camera-washington-1.5429805 "They would love to be able to predict what we have going on. They can't predict [it]," James Lyons-Weiler, a well-known activist who runs a U.S. non-profit anti-vaxx group, said at the Washington event. "Keep their heads spinning." Anti-vaxx is a stupid movement. It's like highly credentialed flat-earthers trying to seem legitimate. This will be the most heavily scrutinized vaccine in history. Regardless though, I'm in my 20s, healthy, not an essential worker, working from home, and not exposed to anyone in a high risk demographic. If people don't want it, that's fine. There's still literally tens of millions who'll get it before me. We're getting one of the mRNA vaccines in Canada, and mRNA is a simple concept. You make your body produce virus parts (The spike protein) and your body reacts to the spike protein. Easy to verify efficacy, and there's no virus in there to cause side effects. There's a world of difference between training your natural immunity with attenuated viruses and programming your body to produce a new protein. I'm not going to stop anyone from being a guinea pig, but it's unacceptable to be forced to be one. Not to mention it's the first vaccine of this type, came out of rushed development, and there's no democratic process behind its deployment. Most people lack the information on the new vaccines and they seem to think, that because the vaccine hasn't gone 5-10 years in development and cilnical trials, then it's a dangerous existence... You really think the world renowned companies like Pfizer/Biontech, Moderna and all other global pharmaceutical companies producing vaccines would risk their reputation and publish a dangerous vaccine to the population?I don't know what this stigma is with the word vaccine, that makes people, mostly Anti-Vaxxers jump the gun and propagate almost preaching to others to avoid vaccines like they are the plague.Yes the new vaccines have not gone 5-10 years in development and clinical trials, but that's just because of the severity of the situation with Covid. World renowned companies have already build the foundations like infrastructure, standards and know-how to speed through clinical trials in emergency situations like the covid pandemic. That doesn't mean that the quality, safety and efficacy of the vaccine is somehow compromised. Companies are doing clinical trials with tens of, if not hundreds of thousands of patients in big trials to assure that quality, safety and efficacy are not compromised. You can never know the long term effects of a product, that's Phase 4 of post-released and post-marketing clinical trials that would accumulate data after the product has been used for years after it's release. That's a normal process for any drug, as well as vaccine.... I would rather believe in the experience of companies that are more then a hundred years old, then the average Joe's suspicions... There is also a lot of information in medical magazines every day, about the efficacy and safety of different treatments to covid as well as vaccines information. If anyone has any doubts go and read the latest information, about the vaccines that get published.
For the first bolded part I can give an easy yes. The contergan-scandal, the Finnish epidemy (deadly agranulocytosis caused by antipsychotics) and other examples all show that pharma on their own aren't able to guarantee you won't be injured by their products.
It is up to physicians to explore the risks, communicate them and up to the patients to decide if they are willing to take them. Certainly not up to politicians or physicians under political pressure to administer something against their patients will. The medical paradigm in the first sentence has been turned upside down when we're talking about forced vaccinations.
The bulk of your argument is appeal to authority. Pharma isn't the authority over your own body no matter what treatment you're getting. The highest authority is you.
For the second part, this isn't your everyday vaccine.
As for the amount of havoc a single protein that isn't supposed to be in your body (at all or depending on the quantity) can cause, there are numerous diseases that exemplify that.
I also don't see it answered by official sources how the injected mRNA is supposed to be kept at sufficient high levels. What do you think happens to mRNA when their job in the ribosomes is done (grossly simplified because the process isn't that straightforward)? What would happen if it were to mutate? What would happen if its information somehow interfered with the natural genetic information?
I don't have the answer to these questions, but if I'm to be injected, they better do.
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On December 06 2020 23:21 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2020 15:19 Mohdoo wrote:On December 06 2020 10:50 Vivax wrote:On December 06 2020 08:57 Lmui wrote:On December 06 2020 08:42 Vivax wrote:Watched a refreshing video by James Lyons-Weiler. He has according to google sufficient credentials to be taken seriously. You don't have to be an anti-vaxxer to agree with him. Besides the lack of investigation into rushed vaccine side-effects, he also mentions the effect of widespread spraying of disinfectant on the fertility of mice in a lab setting. The only way I'm getting vaccinated with this one before several years of clinical, animal trials is in chains. Got plenty of shots in my lifetime already, voluntarily (tetanus, hep, fsme alias 'tick-fever' for lack of a better word). I'll pass on this one even if the govt. blackmails me with restrictions. + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkGB1-YFn1Q&feature=emb_logo When the second result after googling his name and looking at news column is this, it doesn't strike me with confidence. The other results are around his claims that it was an engineered virus by China. He's a lunatic in my eyes. https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/marketplace-anti-vaccination-hidden-camera-washington-1.5429805 "They would love to be able to predict what we have going on. They can't predict [it]," James Lyons-Weiler, a well-known activist who runs a U.S. non-profit anti-vaxx group, said at the Washington event. "Keep their heads spinning." Anti-vaxx is a stupid movement. It's like highly credentialed flat-earthers trying to seem legitimate. This will be the most heavily scrutinized vaccine in history. Regardless though, I'm in my 20s, healthy, not an essential worker, working from home, and not exposed to anyone in a high risk demographic. If people don't want it, that's fine. There's still literally tens of millions who'll get it before me. We're getting one of the mRNA vaccines in Canada, and mRNA is a simple concept. You make your body produce virus parts (The spike protein) and your body reacts to the spike protein. Easy to verify efficacy, and there's no virus in there to cause side effects. There's a world of difference between training your natural immunity with attenuated viruses and programming your body to produce a new protein. I'm not going to stop anyone from being a guinea pig, but it's unacceptable to be forced to be one. Not to mention it's the first vaccine of this type, came out of rushed development, and there's no democratic process behind its deployment. Can you elaborate on why it’s unacceptable? In my eyes, you have reaped incredible benefits of being admitted into societies governed by the ruling government. You’re not independent and your accomplishments are not purely your own doing. You are subject to the laws and decisions made by the people who you’ve enjoyed the benefits of for so long. Where does your sense of independence come from? That's an argumentation you could apply to any government one is living under, no matter how villainous. Somebody could be criticizing laws in North Korea and you could tell him that (which obviously you wouldn't because it's North Korea but if that's your logic you could apply that to anyone living there). Not to mention it boils down the issue to collectivism. Show nested quote +On December 06 2020 20:09 raga4ka wrote:On December 06 2020 10:50 Vivax wrote:On December 06 2020 08:57 Lmui wrote:On December 06 2020 08:42 Vivax wrote:Watched a refreshing video by James Lyons-Weiler. He has according to google sufficient credentials to be taken seriously. You don't have to be an anti-vaxxer to agree with him. Besides the lack of investigation into rushed vaccine side-effects, he also mentions the effect of widespread spraying of disinfectant on the fertility of mice in a lab setting. The only way I'm getting vaccinated with this one before several years of clinical, animal trials is in chains. Got plenty of shots in my lifetime already, voluntarily (tetanus, hep, fsme alias 'tick-fever' for lack of a better word). I'll pass on this one even if the govt. blackmails me with restrictions. + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkGB1-YFn1Q&feature=emb_logo When the second result after googling his name and looking at news column is this, it doesn't strike me with confidence. The other results are around his claims that it was an engineered virus by China. He's a lunatic in my eyes. https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/marketplace-anti-vaccination-hidden-camera-washington-1.5429805 "They would love to be able to predict what we have going on. They can't predict [it]," James Lyons-Weiler, a well-known activist who runs a U.S. non-profit anti-vaxx group, said at the Washington event. "Keep their heads spinning." Anti-vaxx is a stupid movement. It's like highly credentialed flat-earthers trying to seem legitimate. This will be the most heavily scrutinized vaccine in history. Regardless though, I'm in my 20s, healthy, not an essential worker, working from home, and not exposed to anyone in a high risk demographic. If people don't want it, that's fine. There's still literally tens of millions who'll get it before me. We're getting one of the mRNA vaccines in Canada, and mRNA is a simple concept. You make your body produce virus parts (The spike protein) and your body reacts to the spike protein. Easy to verify efficacy, and there's no virus in there to cause side effects. There's a world of difference between training your natural immunity with attenuated viruses and programming your body to produce a new protein. I'm not going to stop anyone from being a guinea pig, but it's unacceptable to be forced to be one. Not to mention it's the first vaccine of this type, came out of rushed development, and there's no democratic process behind its deployment. Most people lack the information on the new vaccines and they seem to think, that because the vaccine hasn't gone 5-10 years in development and cilnical trials, then it's a dangerous existence... You really think the world renowned companies like Pfizer/Biontech, Moderna and all other global pharmaceutical companies producing vaccines would risk their reputation and publish a dangerous vaccine to the population?I don't know what this stigma is with the word vaccine, that makes people, mostly Anti-Vaxxers jump the gun and propagate almost preaching to others to avoid vaccines like they are the plague.Yes the new vaccines have not gone 5-10 years in development and clinical trials, but that's just because of the severity of the situation with Covid. World renowned companies have already build the foundations like infrastructure, standards and know-how to speed through clinical trials in emergency situations like the covid pandemic. That doesn't mean that the quality, safety and efficacy of the vaccine is somehow compromised. Companies are doing clinical trials with tens of, if not hundreds of thousands of patients in big trials to assure that quality, safety and efficacy are not compromised. You can never know the long term effects of a product, that's Phase 4 of post-released and post-marketing clinical trials that would accumulate data after the product has been used for years after it's release. That's a normal process for any drug, as well as vaccine.... I would rather believe in the experience of companies that are more then a hundred years old, then the average Joe's suspicions... There is also a lot of information in medical magazines every day, about the efficacy and safety of different treatments to covid as well as vaccines information. If anyone has any doubts go and read the latest information, about the vaccines that get published. For the first bolded part I can give an easy yes. The contergan-scandal, the Finnish epidemy (deadly agranulocytosis caused by antipsychotics) and other examples all show that pharma on their own aren't able to guarantee you won't be injured by their products. It is up to physicians to explore the risks, communicate them and up to the patients to decide if they are willing to take them. Certainly not up to politicians or physicians under political pressure to administer something against their patients will. The medical paradigm in the first sentence has been turned upside down when we're talking about forced vaccinations. The bulk of your argument is appeal to authority. Pharma isn't the authority over your own body no matter what treatment you're getting. The highest authority is you. For the second part, this isn't your everyday vaccine. As for the amount of havoc a single protein that isn't supposed to be in your body (at all or depending on the quantity) can cause, there are numerous diseases that exemplify that.
Every drug has side effects, some of which can be potentially fatal if not monitored and the risk mitigated. If the therapeutical value of a drug outweighs the risk, then the drug is still used in treatment. If not, the drug will be stopped in it's clinical phase or withdrawn from the market. I think you are siting examples from a time when the regulatory standards were not up to par with modern day clinical trial standards.
You are sitting examples from the 50s and the 70s. I think clinical regulations have come a long way from back then. FDA didn't approve Thalidomide for pregnant woman even back then in the USA if I remember correctly. Thalidomide is now used as an anti-cancer agent.
Your second example from the 70s you are mentioning a side effect of the drug Clozapine which is a well known side effect of the drug. Even if agranulocytosis can be potentially fatal side-effect of the drug, Clozapine is still massively used for resistant Schizophrenia, because physicians or pharmacist monitors for the side-effects.
Just like with any other drug, the proper handling of dangerous or unknown side-effects is key to mitigating a potential risk. Pfizer has tested the vaccine on some 40000-50000 patients if not even more in clinical trials and there is an amount of evidence of efficiency and safety for the vaccine to be considered for use in USA and Europe. FDA and EMA will be evaluating the vaccine's results and If they approve the usage of it, I don't see a reason for people to doubt it.
Physicians prescribe a drug or inject vaccines based on the guidelines provided by the regulatory bodies like the FDA and EMA or your local country's regulatory body which is compliant with EMA for the EU. This guidelines are based on the evidence of efficacy and safety from clinical trials and post-marketing data of the drug/vaccine usage. Some physicians can make a personal call based on their previous experience or knowledge in the field of vaccination, but it's well established that any treatment should follow the guidelines.
In the end no one can force you to take anything... They can't make vaccine mandatory, but If FDA or EMA evaluate that the vaccine is safe and effective to use, I don't see a reason for not using it.
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I hate to bring up smallpox, but I am sure we all are happy today that they were vaccinating everyone for smallpox by force back then. The way we are enforcing vaccines now are nothing like compared to how we used to do it. Vaccine "skepticism" isn't some new phenomenon, it has existed since the inception of the first vaccine.
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On December 07 2020 00:18 Neneu wrote:
I hate to bring up smallpox, but I am sure we all are happy today that they were vaccinating everyone for smallpox by force back then. The way we are enforcing vaccines now are nothing like compared to how we used to do it. Vaccine "skepticism" isn't some new phenomenon, it has existed since the inception of the first vaccine. before rushing off to force people lets see what coverage we get with voluntary measures.
If that is enough for general herd immunity to kick in then there is no need to force people and create more issues.
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On December 07 2020 00:34 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2020 00:18 Neneu wrote:
I hate to bring up smallpox, but I am sure we all are happy today that they were vaccinating everyone for smallpox by force back then. The way we are enforcing vaccines now are nothing like compared to how we used to do it. Vaccine "skepticism" isn't some new phenomenon, it has existed since the inception of the first vaccine. before rushing off to force people lets see what coverage we get with voluntary measures. If that is enough for general herd immunity to kick in then there is no need to force people and create more issues.
Yeah. As far as i know, we will not have enough doses of vaccine for the people who want to be vaccinated for quite a while anyways. Why are we even talking about forced vaccinations?
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On December 06 2020 23:21 Vivax wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 06 2020 15:19 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2020 10:50 Vivax wrote:On December 06 2020 08:57 Lmui wrote:On December 06 2020 08:42 Vivax wrote:Watched a refreshing video by James Lyons-Weiler. He has according to google sufficient credentials to be taken seriously. You don't have to be an anti-vaxxer to agree with him. Besides the lack of investigation into rushed vaccine side-effects, he also mentions the effect of widespread spraying of disinfectant on the fertility of mice in a lab setting. The only way I'm getting vaccinated with this one before several years of clinical, animal trials is in chains. Got plenty of shots in my lifetime already, voluntarily (tetanus, hep, fsme alias 'tick-fever' for lack of a better word). I'll pass on this one even if the govt. blackmails me with restrictions. + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkGB1-YFn1Q&feature=emb_logo When the second result after googling his name and looking at news column is this, it doesn't strike me with confidence. The other results are around his claims that it was an engineered virus by China. He's a lunatic in my eyes. https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/marketplace-anti-vaccination-hidden-camera-washington-1.5429805 "They would love to be able to predict what we have going on. They can't predict [it]," James Lyons-Weiler, a well-known activist who runs a U.S. non-profit anti-vaxx group, said at the Washington event. "Keep their heads spinning." Anti-vaxx is a stupid movement. It's like highly credentialed flat-earthers trying to seem legitimate. This will be the most heavily scrutinized vaccine in history. Regardless though, I'm in my 20s, healthy, not an essential worker, working from home, and not exposed to anyone in a high risk demographic. If people don't want it, that's fine. There's still literally tens of millions who'll get it before me. We're getting one of the mRNA vaccines in Canada, and mRNA is a simple concept. You make your body produce virus parts (The spike protein) and your body reacts to the spike protein. Easy to verify efficacy, and there's no virus in there to cause side effects. There's a world of difference between training your natural immunity with attenuated viruses and programming your body to produce a new protein. I'm not going to stop anyone from being a guinea pig, but it's unacceptable to be forced to be one. Not to mention it's the first vaccine of this type, came out of rushed development, and there's no democratic process behind its deployment. Can you elaborate on why it’s unacceptable? In my eyes, you have reaped incredible benefits of being admitted into societies governed by the ruling government. You’re not independent and your accomplishments are not purely your own doing. You are subject to the laws and decisions made by the people who you’ve enjoyed the benefits of for so long. Where does your sense of independence come from? That's an argumentation you could apply to any government one is living under, no matter how villainous. Somebody could be criticizing laws in North Korea and you could tell him that (which obviously you wouldn't because it's North Korea but if that's your logic you could apply that to anyone living there). Not to mention it boils down the issue to collectivism. On December 06 2020 20:09 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2020 10:50 Vivax wrote:On December 06 2020 08:57 Lmui wrote:On December 06 2020 08:42 Vivax wrote:Watched a refreshing video by James Lyons-Weiler. He has according to google sufficient credentials to be taken seriously. You don't have to be an anti-vaxxer to agree with him. Besides the lack of investigation into rushed vaccine side-effects, he also mentions the effect of widespread spraying of disinfectant on the fertility of mice in a lab setting. The only way I'm getting vaccinated with this one before several years of clinical, animal trials is in chains. Got plenty of shots in my lifetime already, voluntarily (tetanus, hep, fsme alias 'tick-fever' for lack of a better word). I'll pass on this one even if the govt. blackmails me with restrictions. + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkGB1-YFn1Q&feature=emb_logo When the second result after googling his name and looking at news column is this, it doesn't strike me with confidence. The other results are around his claims that it was an engineered virus by China. He's a lunatic in my eyes. https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/marketplace-anti-vaccination-hidden-camera-washington-1.5429805 "They would love to be able to predict what we have going on. They can't predict [it]," James Lyons-Weiler, a well-known activist who runs a U.S. non-profit anti-vaxx group, said at the Washington event. "Keep their heads spinning." Anti-vaxx is a stupid movement. It's like highly credentialed flat-earthers trying to seem legitimate. This will be the most heavily scrutinized vaccine in history. Regardless though, I'm in my 20s, healthy, not an essential worker, working from home, and not exposed to anyone in a high risk demographic. If people don't want it, that's fine. There's still literally tens of millions who'll get it before me. We're getting one of the mRNA vaccines in Canada, and mRNA is a simple concept. You make your body produce virus parts (The spike protein) and your body reacts to the spike protein. Easy to verify efficacy, and there's no virus in there to cause side effects. There's a world of difference between training your natural immunity with attenuated viruses and programming your body to produce a new protein. I'm not going to stop anyone from being a guinea pig, but it's unacceptable to be forced to be one. Not to mention it's the first vaccine of this type, came out of rushed development, and there's no democratic process behind its deployment. Most people lack the information on the new vaccines and they seem to think, that because the vaccine hasn't gone 5-10 years in development and cilnical trials, then it's a dangerous existence... You really think the world renowned companies like Pfizer/Biontech, Moderna and all other global pharmaceutical companies producing vaccines would risk their reputation and publish a dangerous vaccine to the population?I don't know what this stigma is with the word vaccine, that makes people, mostly Anti-Vaxxers jump the gun and propagate almost preaching to others to avoid vaccines like they are the plague.Yes the new vaccines have not gone 5-10 years in development and clinical trials, but that's just because of the severity of the situation with Covid. World renowned companies have already build the foundations like infrastructure, standards and know-how to speed through clinical trials in emergency situations like the covid pandemic. That doesn't mean that the quality, safety and efficacy of the vaccine is somehow compromised. Companies are doing clinical trials with tens of, if not hundreds of thousands of patients in big trials to assure that quality, safety and efficacy are not compromised. You can never know the long term effects of a product, that's Phase 4 of post-released and post-marketing clinical trials that would accumulate data after the product has been used for years after it's release. That's a normal process for any drug, as well as vaccine.... I would rather believe in the experience of companies that are more then a hundred years old, then the average Joe's suspicions... There is also a lot of information in medical magazines every day, about the efficacy and safety of different treatments to covid as well as vaccines information. If anyone has any doubts go and read the latest information, about the vaccines that get published. For the first bolded part I can give an easy yes. The contergan-scandal, the Finnish epidemy (deadly agranulocytosis caused by antipsychotics) and other examples all show that pharma on their own aren't able to guarantee you won't be injured by their products. It is up to physicians to explore the risks, communicate them and up to the patients to decide if they are willing to take them. Certainly not up to politicians or physicians under political pressure to administer something against their patients will. The medical paradigm in the first sentence has been turned upside down when we're talking about forced vaccinations. The bulk of your argument is appeal to authority. Pharma isn't the authority over your own body no matter what treatment you're getting. The highest authority is you. For the second part, this isn't your everyday vaccine. As for the amount of havoc a single protein that isn't supposed to be in your body (at all or depending on the quantity) can cause, there are numerous diseases that exemplify that. I also don't see it answered by official sources how the injected mRNA is supposed to be kept at sufficient high levels. What do you think happens to mRNA when their job in the ribosomes is done (grossly simplified because the process isn't that straightforward)? What would happen if it were to mutate? What would happen if its information somehow interfered with the natural genetic information? I don't have the answer to these questions, but if I'm to be injected, they better do.
I have to say, I’m suddenly seeing your handle in a whole new light.
Briefly:
1) The mRNA doesn’t have to be “kept at sufficiently high levels” indefinitely. It produces the desired protein and degrades.
2) Mutation isn’t really a thing for mRNA, especially since they’re synthesizing it themselves and skipping transcription entirely. If it did happen it would produce a single malformed protein, which happens in your body all the time and is no particular cause for alarm.
3) There is no known process by which mRNA would “interfere with the natural genetic information” in any significant or lasting way.
What *does* fuck with your “natural genetic information” is a virus. They have a reverse transcriptase that can produce DNA from their RNA and insert their code into your code. The mRNA vaccines don’t, they just go in, make a peptide, and break down. If I were going to be scared of something in their vaccine it’d be the formulation (to my understanding, some kind of lipid bundle to encapsulate the mRNA and help it get into cells) since it’s more likely to have weird exogenous components with unclear degradation pathways. But that’s why they do clinical trials.
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On December 07 2020 00:34 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2020 00:18 Neneu wrote:
I hate to bring up smallpox, but I am sure we all are happy today that they were vaccinating everyone for smallpox by force back then. The way we are enforcing vaccines now are nothing like compared to how we used to do it. Vaccine "skepticism" isn't some new phenomenon, it has existed since the inception of the first vaccine. before rushing off to force people lets see what coverage we get with voluntary measures. If that is enough for general herd immunity to kick in then there is no need to force people and create more issues.
Why should we tip toe around ridiculous perspectives? If there was a group of people who believed potatoes being sold in grocery stores made it more likely for milk to cause cancer, what should we do? Do we start selling potatoes outside, since there's a group that isn't comfortable with them being sold inside? When is a belief too stupid to be tip toed around?
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On December 07 2020 02:37 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2020 00:34 Gorsameth wrote:On December 07 2020 00:18 Neneu wrote:
I hate to bring up smallpox, but I am sure we all are happy today that they were vaccinating everyone for smallpox by force back then. The way we are enforcing vaccines now are nothing like compared to how we used to do it. Vaccine "skepticism" isn't some new phenomenon, it has existed since the inception of the first vaccine. before rushing off to force people lets see what coverage we get with voluntary measures. If that is enough for general herd immunity to kick in then there is no need to force people and create more issues. Why should we tip toe around ridiculous perspectives? If there was a group of people who believed potatoes being sold in grocery stores made it more likely for milk to cause cancer, what should we do? Do we start selling potatoes outside, since there's a group that isn't comfortable with them being sold inside? When is a belief too stupid to be tip toed around?
Because it works better and isn't actually a problem currently.
People react badly if you force them to do stuff. It makes everything far more complicated. Generally speaking, the state should use force only when strictly necessary, and even then think twice about it.
Currently, we don't have enough vaccine for everybody who wants some, so why would we force people who don't want it to take it, creating huge political problems?
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On December 07 2020 02:22 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2020 23:21 Vivax wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 06 2020 15:19 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2020 10:50 Vivax wrote:On December 06 2020 08:57 Lmui wrote:On December 06 2020 08:42 Vivax wrote:Watched a refreshing video by James Lyons-Weiler. He has according to google sufficient credentials to be taken seriously. You don't have to be an anti-vaxxer to agree with him. Besides the lack of investigation into rushed vaccine side-effects, he also mentions the effect of widespread spraying of disinfectant on the fertility of mice in a lab setting. The only way I'm getting vaccinated with this one before several years of clinical, animal trials is in chains. Got plenty of shots in my lifetime already, voluntarily (tetanus, hep, fsme alias 'tick-fever' for lack of a better word). I'll pass on this one even if the govt. blackmails me with restrictions. + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkGB1-YFn1Q&feature=emb_logo When the second result after googling his name and looking at news column is this, it doesn't strike me with confidence. The other results are around his claims that it was an engineered virus by China. He's a lunatic in my eyes. https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/marketplace-anti-vaccination-hidden-camera-washington-1.5429805 "They would love to be able to predict what we have going on. They can't predict [it]," James Lyons-Weiler, a well-known activist who runs a U.S. non-profit anti-vaxx group, said at the Washington event. "Keep their heads spinning." Anti-vaxx is a stupid movement. It's like highly credentialed flat-earthers trying to seem legitimate. This will be the most heavily scrutinized vaccine in history. Regardless though, I'm in my 20s, healthy, not an essential worker, working from home, and not exposed to anyone in a high risk demographic. If people don't want it, that's fine. There's still literally tens of millions who'll get it before me. We're getting one of the mRNA vaccines in Canada, and mRNA is a simple concept. You make your body produce virus parts (The spike protein) and your body reacts to the spike protein. Easy to verify efficacy, and there's no virus in there to cause side effects. There's a world of difference between training your natural immunity with attenuated viruses and programming your body to produce a new protein. I'm not going to stop anyone from being a guinea pig, but it's unacceptable to be forced to be one. Not to mention it's the first vaccine of this type, came out of rushed development, and there's no democratic process behind its deployment. Can you elaborate on why it’s unacceptable? In my eyes, you have reaped incredible benefits of being admitted into societies governed by the ruling government. You’re not independent and your accomplishments are not purely your own doing. You are subject to the laws and decisions made by the people who you’ve enjoyed the benefits of for so long. Where does your sense of independence come from? That's an argumentation you could apply to any government one is living under, no matter how villainous. Somebody could be criticizing laws in North Korea and you could tell him that (which obviously you wouldn't because it's North Korea but if that's your logic you could apply that to anyone living there). Not to mention it boils down the issue to collectivism. On December 06 2020 20:09 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2020 10:50 Vivax wrote:On December 06 2020 08:57 Lmui wrote:On December 06 2020 08:42 Vivax wrote:Watched a refreshing video by James Lyons-Weiler. He has according to google sufficient credentials to be taken seriously. You don't have to be an anti-vaxxer to agree with him. Besides the lack of investigation into rushed vaccine side-effects, he also mentions the effect of widespread spraying of disinfectant on the fertility of mice in a lab setting. The only way I'm getting vaccinated with this one before several years of clinical, animal trials is in chains. Got plenty of shots in my lifetime already, voluntarily (tetanus, hep, fsme alias 'tick-fever' for lack of a better word). I'll pass on this one even if the govt. blackmails me with restrictions. + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkGB1-YFn1Q&feature=emb_logo When the second result after googling his name and looking at news column is this, it doesn't strike me with confidence. The other results are around his claims that it was an engineered virus by China. He's a lunatic in my eyes. https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/marketplace-anti-vaccination-hidden-camera-washington-1.5429805 "They would love to be able to predict what we have going on. They can't predict [it]," James Lyons-Weiler, a well-known activist who runs a U.S. non-profit anti-vaxx group, said at the Washington event. "Keep their heads spinning." Anti-vaxx is a stupid movement. It's like highly credentialed flat-earthers trying to seem legitimate. This will be the most heavily scrutinized vaccine in history. Regardless though, I'm in my 20s, healthy, not an essential worker, working from home, and not exposed to anyone in a high risk demographic. If people don't want it, that's fine. There's still literally tens of millions who'll get it before me. We're getting one of the mRNA vaccines in Canada, and mRNA is a simple concept. You make your body produce virus parts (The spike protein) and your body reacts to the spike protein. Easy to verify efficacy, and there's no virus in there to cause side effects. There's a world of difference between training your natural immunity with attenuated viruses and programming your body to produce a new protein. I'm not going to stop anyone from being a guinea pig, but it's unacceptable to be forced to be one. Not to mention it's the first vaccine of this type, came out of rushed development, and there's no democratic process behind its deployment. Most people lack the information on the new vaccines and they seem to think, that because the vaccine hasn't gone 5-10 years in development and cilnical trials, then it's a dangerous existence... You really think the world renowned companies like Pfizer/Biontech, Moderna and all other global pharmaceutical companies producing vaccines would risk their reputation and publish a dangerous vaccine to the population?I don't know what this stigma is with the word vaccine, that makes people, mostly Anti-Vaxxers jump the gun and propagate almost preaching to others to avoid vaccines like they are the plague.Yes the new vaccines have not gone 5-10 years in development and clinical trials, but that's just because of the severity of the situation with Covid. World renowned companies have already build the foundations like infrastructure, standards and know-how to speed through clinical trials in emergency situations like the covid pandemic. That doesn't mean that the quality, safety and efficacy of the vaccine is somehow compromised. Companies are doing clinical trials with tens of, if not hundreds of thousands of patients in big trials to assure that quality, safety and efficacy are not compromised. You can never know the long term effects of a product, that's Phase 4 of post-released and post-marketing clinical trials that would accumulate data after the product has been used for years after it's release. That's a normal process for any drug, as well as vaccine.... I would rather believe in the experience of companies that are more then a hundred years old, then the average Joe's suspicions... There is also a lot of information in medical magazines every day, about the efficacy and safety of different treatments to covid as well as vaccines information. If anyone has any doubts go and read the latest information, about the vaccines that get published. For the first bolded part I can give an easy yes. The contergan-scandal, the Finnish epidemy (deadly agranulocytosis caused by antipsychotics) and other examples all show that pharma on their own aren't able to guarantee you won't be injured by their products. It is up to physicians to explore the risks, communicate them and up to the patients to decide if they are willing to take them. Certainly not up to politicians or physicians under political pressure to administer something against their patients will. The medical paradigm in the first sentence has been turned upside down when we're talking about forced vaccinations. The bulk of your argument is appeal to authority. Pharma isn't the authority over your own body no matter what treatment you're getting. The highest authority is you. For the second part, this isn't your everyday vaccine. As for the amount of havoc a single protein that isn't supposed to be in your body (at all or depending on the quantity) can cause, there are numerous diseases that exemplify that. I also don't see it answered by official sources how the injected mRNA is supposed to be kept at sufficient high levels. What do you think happens to mRNA when their job in the ribosomes is done (grossly simplified because the process isn't that straightforward)? What would happen if it were to mutate? What would happen if its information somehow interfered with the natural genetic information? I don't have the answer to these questions, but if I'm to be injected, they better do. I have to say, I’m suddenly seeing your handle in a whole new light. Briefly: 1) The mRNA doesn’t have to be “kept at sufficiently high levels” indefinitely. It produces the desired protein and degrades. 2) Mutation isn’t really a thing for mRNA, especially since they’re synthesizing it themselves and skipping transcription entirely. If it did happen it would produce a single malformed protein, which happens in your body all the time and is no particular cause for alarm. 3) There is no known process by which mRNA would “interfere with the natural genetic information” in any significant or lasting way. What *does* fuck with your “natural genetic information” is a virus. They have a reverse transcriptase that can produce DNA from their RNA and insert their code into your code. The mRNA vaccines don’t, they just go in, make a peptide, and break down. If I were going to be scared of something in their vaccine it’d be the formulation (to my understanding, some kind of lipid bundle to encapsulate the mRNA and help it get into cells) since it’s more likely to have weird exogenous components with unclear degradation pathways. But that’s why they do clinical trials.
I definitely picked my handle with a sufficient degree of introspection.
Whether the mutation is relevant depends largely on how it fits within the tRNA complex with its anticodons, if it doesn't it would be discarded. Then the newly synthesized aminopeptid would have to be able to fit into the protein in a way that wouldn't cause it to lose its function, or gain a harmful one.
What ensures lasting immunity if the mRNA degrades? Lifelong covid shots? No thank you.
Ad 3) That's right. We don't know, and that's just one part of the problem. Now let's say I'm an evil bastard, If I were to have that piece of RNA that supposedly degrades floating around in my cell core and has adverse effects that degrade over time, I could release a retrovirus with no noticeable adverse effects that integrates that mRNA into my genome and makes the effects permanent. Very tinfoily I know.
Either way, as you mention retroviruses, we are at least partially a product of coexistence with naturally occurring ones.
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I won't pretend that I don't find the Moderna vaccine to be substantially more suspicious than the other major candidates. It's a less proven technique made by a company that has never made a successful vaccine before, whose entire value is based on that this first vaccine is a winner, so they have every incentive to make it look better than it actually is. But the test results seem good, and the reality of our situation is that for pretty much all of the mature vaccines out there the cure is less harmful than the disease, so we take what we can get right now.
Some people would prefer to take a "we have to let it go through the scientific slow-track to be 100.01% sure it works right" approach. At this point there's enough data to show that we're at about the point where deploying the vaccines will save more lives than they might kill if there are botched edge cases we didn't sufficiently consider. They generally seem to work and the side effects are not awful; it's time for deployment.
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On December 07 2020 02:37 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2020 00:34 Gorsameth wrote:On December 07 2020 00:18 Neneu wrote:
I hate to bring up smallpox, but I am sure we all are happy today that they were vaccinating everyone for smallpox by force back then. The way we are enforcing vaccines now are nothing like compared to how we used to do it. Vaccine "skepticism" isn't some new phenomenon, it has existed since the inception of the first vaccine. before rushing off to force people lets see what coverage we get with voluntary measures. If that is enough for general herd immunity to kick in then there is no need to force people and create more issues. Why should we tip toe around ridiculous perspectives? If there was a group of people who believed potatoes being sold in grocery stores made it more likely for milk to cause cancer, what should we do? Do we start selling potatoes outside, since there's a group that isn't comfortable with them being sold inside? When is a belief too stupid to be tip toed around? You ignore them so long as they are harmless? and in this case ignoring them is not forcing vaccinations on people and so long as enough people want the vaccine to reach herd immunity thresholds it should be pretty harmless?
Parts of the US will have issues like this, but certain parts of the US are 'Special' anyway and I wonder if you would even get forced vaccination past the Supreme Court.
People tend to get antsy when the government forces itself upon people, even in sane countries. So why open that can of worms if there is no real reason to believe that many people will avoid the vaccine?
You can always cross that bridge when it becomes necessary.
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EPT
