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This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here.
Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. |
On December 07 2020 02:44 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2020 02:22 ChristianS wrote:On December 06 2020 23:21 Vivax wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 06 2020 15:19 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2020 10:50 Vivax wrote:On December 06 2020 08:57 Lmui wrote:On December 06 2020 08:42 Vivax wrote:Watched a refreshing video by James Lyons-Weiler. He has according to google sufficient credentials to be taken seriously. You don't have to be an anti-vaxxer to agree with him. Besides the lack of investigation into rushed vaccine side-effects, he also mentions the effect of widespread spraying of disinfectant on the fertility of mice in a lab setting. The only way I'm getting vaccinated with this one before several years of clinical, animal trials is in chains. Got plenty of shots in my lifetime already, voluntarily (tetanus, hep, fsme alias 'tick-fever' for lack of a better word). I'll pass on this one even if the govt. blackmails me with restrictions. + Show Spoiler + When the second result after googling his name and looking at news column is this, it doesn't strike me with confidence. The other results are around his claims that it was an engineered virus by China. He's a lunatic in my eyes. https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/marketplace-anti-vaccination-hidden-camera-washington-1.5429805 "They would love to be able to predict what we have going on. They can't predict [it]," James Lyons-Weiler, a well-known activist who runs a U.S. non-profit anti-vaxx group, said at the Washington event. "Keep their heads spinning." Anti-vaxx is a stupid movement. It's like highly credentialed flat-earthers trying to seem legitimate. This will be the most heavily scrutinized vaccine in history. Regardless though, I'm in my 20s, healthy, not an essential worker, working from home, and not exposed to anyone in a high risk demographic. If people don't want it, that's fine. There's still literally tens of millions who'll get it before me. We're getting one of the mRNA vaccines in Canada, and mRNA is a simple concept. You make your body produce virus parts (The spike protein) and your body reacts to the spike protein. Easy to verify efficacy, and there's no virus in there to cause side effects. There's a world of difference between training your natural immunity with attenuated viruses and programming your body to produce a new protein. I'm not going to stop anyone from being a guinea pig, but it's unacceptable to be forced to be one. Not to mention it's the first vaccine of this type, came out of rushed development, and there's no democratic process behind its deployment. Can you elaborate on why it’s unacceptable? In my eyes, you have reaped incredible benefits of being admitted into societies governed by the ruling government. You’re not independent and your accomplishments are not purely your own doing. You are subject to the laws and decisions made by the people who you’ve enjoyed the benefits of for so long. Where does your sense of independence come from? That's an argumentation you could apply to any government one is living under, no matter how villainous. Somebody could be criticizing laws in North Korea and you could tell him that (which obviously you wouldn't because it's North Korea but if that's your logic you could apply that to anyone living there). Not to mention it boils down the issue to collectivism. On December 06 2020 20:09 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2020 10:50 Vivax wrote:On December 06 2020 08:57 Lmui wrote:On December 06 2020 08:42 Vivax wrote:Watched a refreshing video by James Lyons-Weiler. He has according to google sufficient credentials to be taken seriously. You don't have to be an anti-vaxxer to agree with him. Besides the lack of investigation into rushed vaccine side-effects, he also mentions the effect of widespread spraying of disinfectant on the fertility of mice in a lab setting. The only way I'm getting vaccinated with this one before several years of clinical, animal trials is in chains. Got plenty of shots in my lifetime already, voluntarily (tetanus, hep, fsme alias 'tick-fever' for lack of a better word). I'll pass on this one even if the govt. blackmails me with restrictions. + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkGB1-YFn1Q&feature=emb_logo When the second result after googling his name and looking at news column is this, it doesn't strike me with confidence. The other results are around his claims that it was an engineered virus by China. He's a lunatic in my eyes. https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/marketplace-anti-vaccination-hidden-camera-washington-1.5429805 "They would love to be able to predict what we have going on. They can't predict [it]," James Lyons-Weiler, a well-known activist who runs a U.S. non-profit anti-vaxx group, said at the Washington event. "Keep their heads spinning." Anti-vaxx is a stupid movement. It's like highly credentialed flat-earthers trying to seem legitimate. This will be the most heavily scrutinized vaccine in history. Regardless though, I'm in my 20s, healthy, not an essential worker, working from home, and not exposed to anyone in a high risk demographic. If people don't want it, that's fine. There's still literally tens of millions who'll get it before me. We're getting one of the mRNA vaccines in Canada, and mRNA is a simple concept. You make your body produce virus parts (The spike protein) and your body reacts to the spike protein. Easy to verify efficacy, and there's no virus in there to cause side effects. There's a world of difference between training your natural immunity with attenuated viruses and programming your body to produce a new protein. I'm not going to stop anyone from being a guinea pig, but it's unacceptable to be forced to be one. Not to mention it's the first vaccine of this type, came out of rushed development, and there's no democratic process behind its deployment. Most people lack the information on the new vaccines and they seem to think, that because the vaccine hasn't gone 5-10 years in development and cilnical trials, then it's a dangerous existence... You really think the world renowned companies like Pfizer/Biontech, Moderna and all other global pharmaceutical companies producing vaccines would risk their reputation and publish a dangerous vaccine to the population?I don't know what this stigma is with the word vaccine, that makes people, mostly Anti-Vaxxers jump the gun and propagate almost preaching to others to avoid vaccines like they are the plague.Yes the new vaccines have not gone 5-10 years in development and clinical trials, but that's just because of the severity of the situation with Covid. World renowned companies have already build the foundations like infrastructure, standards and know-how to speed through clinical trials in emergency situations like the covid pandemic. That doesn't mean that the quality, safety and efficacy of the vaccine is somehow compromised. Companies are doing clinical trials with tens of, if not hundreds of thousands of patients in big trials to assure that quality, safety and efficacy are not compromised. You can never know the long term effects of a product, that's Phase 4 of post-released and post-marketing clinical trials that would accumulate data after the product has been used for years after it's release. That's a normal process for any drug, as well as vaccine.... I would rather believe in the experience of companies that are more then a hundred years old, then the average Joe's suspicions... There is also a lot of information in medical magazines every day, about the efficacy and safety of different treatments to covid as well as vaccines information. If anyone has any doubts go and read the latest information, about the vaccines that get published. For the first bolded part I can give an easy yes. The contergan-scandal, the Finnish epidemy (deadly agranulocytosis caused by antipsychotics) and other examples all show that pharma on their own aren't able to guarantee you won't be injured by their products. It is up to physicians to explore the risks, communicate them and up to the patients to decide if they are willing to take them. Certainly not up to politicians or physicians under political pressure to administer something against their patients will. The medical paradigm in the first sentence has been turned upside down when we're talking about forced vaccinations. The bulk of your argument is appeal to authority. Pharma isn't the authority over your own body no matter what treatment you're getting. The highest authority is you. For the second part, this isn't your everyday vaccine. As for the amount of havoc a single protein that isn't supposed to be in your body (at all or depending on the quantity) can cause, there are numerous diseases that exemplify that. I also don't see it answered by official sources how the injected mRNA is supposed to be kept at sufficient high levels. What do you think happens to mRNA when their job in the ribosomes is done (grossly simplified because the process isn't that straightforward)? What would happen if it were to mutate? What would happen if its information somehow interfered with the natural genetic information? I don't have the answer to these questions, but if I'm to be injected, they better do. I have to say, I’m suddenly seeing your handle in a whole new light. Briefly: 1) The mRNA doesn’t have to be “kept at sufficiently high levels” indefinitely. It produces the desired protein and degrades. 2) Mutation isn’t really a thing for mRNA, especially since they’re synthesizing it themselves and skipping transcription entirely. If it did happen it would produce a single malformed protein, which happens in your body all the time and is no particular cause for alarm. 3) There is no known process by which mRNA would “interfere with the natural genetic information” in any significant or lasting way. What *does* fuck with your “natural genetic information” is a virus. They have a reverse transcriptase that can produce DNA from their RNA and insert their code into your code. The mRNA vaccines don’t, they just go in, make a peptide, and break down. If I were going to be scared of something in their vaccine it’d be the formulation (to my understanding, some kind of lipid bundle to encapsulate the mRNA and help it get into cells) since it’s more likely to have weird exogenous components with unclear degradation pathways. But that’s why they do clinical trials. I definitely picked my handle with a sufficient degree of introspection. Whether the mutation is relevant depends largely on how it fits within the tRNA complex with its anticodons, if it doesn't it would be discarded. Then the newly synthesized aminopeptid would have to be able to fit into the protein in a way that wouldn't cause it to lose its function, or gain a harmful one. What ensures lasting immunity if the mRNA degrades? Lifelong covid shots? No thank you. Ad 3) That's right. We don't know, and that's just one part of the problem. Now let's say I'm an evil bastard, If I were to have that piece of RNA that supposedly degrades floating around in my cell core and has adverse effects that degrade over time, I could release a retrovirus with no noticeable adverse effects that integrates that mRNA into my genome and makes the effects permanent.
Mutation is, for these purposes, a DNA phenomenon (i.e. a mistake happens during replication). If a mistake happens in transcription it could make miscoding or noncoding mRNA, but it wouldn’t really be a “mutation” in that it doesn’t perpetuate itself. A single mistranslated mRNA produces either nothing, or a single (possibly) mistranslated peptide. Again, this happens in your body all the time, and nobody worries about it because it doesn’t break anything.
I’m not sure you understand what peptide Moderna is trying to make. It sounds like you think they’re coding for an antibody? The idea of mRNA vaccines is to produce something your body will create antibodies against, producing immunity. Once that’s done your body will maintain immunity like it does for everything else you’re immune to, the antigen-producing mRNA doesn’t need to stick around.
Think of it this way: the virus injects RNA for producing A-Z into your body, including a reverse transcriptase to insert code for producing A-Z into your DNA, making new viruses and spilling them out into your other cells. By contrast the vaccine injects RNA for producing just A, a component of the virus they think will promote immunity. It doesn’t have anything about B-Z, and it doesn’t have the reverse transcriptase so once the mRNA breaks down into ACUG it won’t exert any continuing influence.
The safety profile of the former is, you might agree, very concerning. It makes lasting changes to your genetic code and hijacks your cells into becoming suicide virus factories. The safety profile of the latter? mRNA by itself is present in the body already and has no known harmful effects. It induces translation, obviously, but the peptide it produces doesn’t do any of the harmful stuff the virus does without the rest of the virus components.
It does induce immunity, which means it has significant effects on your immune system, so we’d want extensive safety testing to ensure it doesn’t cause auto-immune issues. But they’re doing that testing now. If they’ve given it to tens of thousands of people and monitored them with no serious adverse events, there’s no reason to think it will go differently for you or me.
You appeal to unknown unknowns here, which you must understand looks a lot like grasping at straws. Decades of biological research produce no evidence that mRNA will change your DNA, but you still think it might? Why? Do you always live your life dreading such improbable hypotheticals? Decades of playing Starcraft has produced no evidence that playing Starcraft will cause the sun to explode, but do you think we should stop just in case?
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Where did you get the notion that I thought they'd be coding for an antibody? If that were the case one could just inject it.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7423510/
A vaccine that elicits the production of S protein neutralizing antibodies in the vaccinated subjects is the primary aim of all the programs for COVID-19 vaccines.
I do intend to support the view that nobody has any right to tell anyone else what to put into their body. Maybe I need to grasp at straws for that but to me the view that it's the right thing to do comes naturally.
So if this vaccine doesn't induce an antibody, it riddles my cell surfaces with a spike protein that is unique to the virus (is it?Apparently it contains a cleavage site for Furin which prevents autoimmune diseases in us, which is a trait unique to Covid-19 among other coronaviruses).
If I have been previously exposed, then the cell is going to be attacked? If I haven't, why should my body start producing antibodies against my own cell with the extra protein? That's a matter of MHC.
And then, presuming it works, how long does that protein stick around? If it's dependent on mitosis and a new copy of a cell that wouldn't carry it, it would mean it's going to be expressed permanently in tissue that doesn't replicate, like neurons. Doesn't that mean an impairment of the blood brain barrier is going to cause something like autoimmune-encephalitis?
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“Why would the body make antibodies against the protein it produces?” is sort of an inane question when we already have robust empirical data that it is, in fact, immunogenic. Immunology is extremely complicated and I’m no expert, but whatever mental model you have for your body developing immunity to the virus, the mechanism for immunogenicity of vaccines is similar.
That’s why the question “how is it going to keep high enough levels of mRNA in my body?” would seem to betray a misunderstanding of the basic biology. You don’t need to keep some attenuated small pox around for the rest of your life to maintain immunity to small pox after vaccination, any more than you would if you’d developed immunity from surviving small pox.
Like the mRNA of the vaccine, the produced peptides will also degrade over time. Peptides in your body can have half-lives from hours to weeks, but they all break down eventually. And like the mRNA, they’ll break down into stuff your body already has a ton of floating around, so there’s no particular reason to think degradation products will be hazardous either.
A lot of this comes down to the empirical evidence. Is it self-evident that the mRNA would get into the cell, that translation would happen correctly, or that the resulting peptide would be immunogenic? No! But the data says so. Is it inconceivable that something in the formulation, or the mRNA, or the resulting peptide would cause serious adverse effects? No! But the data doesn’t say it does.
Whether anyone should be forced to take it is a separate question. Medical ethics generally puts a pretty big emphasis on informed consent. I’m not an expert there either and couldn’t enumerate all the reasons why, but I doubt this vaccine would qualify as an exception. Practically speaking it’s going to be a long time before we produce enough for everyone that wants it anyway, and if by then we’ve got enough population immunity to end the pandemic, then the question will never come up. That seems most likely to me.
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@Vivax
I get that people are hesitant towards a new vaccine but what solution do you suggest? Keep on doing what we're doing now for another four or five years? What other option is there besides a vaccine?
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On December 07 2020 19:36 Longshank wrote:
@Vivax
I get that people are hesitant towards a new vaccine but what solution do you suggest? Keep on doing what we're doing now for another four or five years? What other option is there besides a vaccine?
Aiming for a conventional vaccine or rely on corticosteroids for treatment.
Then maybe realize it isn't the virus locking people into their homes or shutting down their businesses. That's policy. It's justified for a limited period of time and happened during the spanish flu as well, except that virus went away on its own afterwards, sometimes after a single infection spike, sometimes after a double spike in cases.
Graph shows spanish flu cases. Though names aren't included. Here's the link.
+ Show Spoiler +https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/2020/03/how-cities-flattened-curve-1918-spanish-flu-pandemic-coronavirus/#:~:text=JA%2C%20et%20al.-,Nonpharmaceutical%20Interventions%20Implemented%20by%20US,the%201918%2D1919%20Influenza%20Pandemic.&text=Flu%20cases%20continued%20to%20mount,were%20at%20least%2020%2C000%20more.
The vaccine deployment would come at a time when we're past the second wave. Wait and see should be next imo.
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It’s hard to reconcile vague speculation about how secretly terrible the safety profile of the vaccines might be with advocating a strategy that instead gives a huge percentage of those people the virus itself. We already know the virus’s safety profile is terrible, and whatever side effects you think might be associated with the mRNA (“what if it messes with my DNA???”) will almost certainly be at least as prevalent with the virus itself.
But I’m still reeling from the realization that a handle I’ve been reading for years is apparently some kind of vague anti-vax self-identifier? It’s hard for me to imagine being so deep in that belief to name myself after it.
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But I’m still reeling from the realization that a handle I’ve been reading for years is apparently some kind of vague anti-vax self-identifier? It’s hard for me to imagine being so deep in that belief to name myself after it.
This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here.
...?
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A poster currently arguing against coronavirus vaccine safety apparently chose his screen name based on his belief in the adverse health effects of vaccines (I’m still unclear on the exact details). Are you arguing that discussing that is politics unrelated to coronavirus?
I’m afraid you’re going to have to actually say your point, not just juxtapose quotes and gesture meaningfully. Or alternatively talk to mods if you think my posts are moderation-worthy.
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On December 08 2020 01:03 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2020 19:36 Longshank wrote:
@Vivax
I get that people are hesitant towards a new vaccine but what solution do you suggest? Keep on doing what we're doing now for another four or five years? What other option is there besides a vaccine? Aiming for a conventional vaccine or rely on corticosteroids for treatment. Then maybe realize it isn't the virus locking people into their homes or shutting down their businesses. That's policy. It's justified for a limited period of time and happened during the spanish flu as well, except that virus went away on its own afterwards, sometimes after a single infection spike, sometimes after a double spike in cases. Graph shows spanish flu cases. Though names aren't included. Here's the link. + Show Spoiler +https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/2020/03/how-cities-flattened-curve-1918-spanish-flu-pandemic-coronavirus/#:~:text=JA%2C%20et%20al.-,Nonpharmaceutical%20Interventions%20Implemented%20by%20US,the%201918%2D1919%20Influenza%20Pandemic.&text=Flu%20cases%20continued%20to%20mount,were%20at%20least%2020%2C000%20more. The vaccine deployment would come at a time when we're past the second wave. Wait and see should be next imo.
The Spanish flu never "went away" though (except this year due to the extreme measures). It still kept popping up very frequently in significant numbers until late 2019 and the infection rates varied every year and between regions. The CFR is somewhat unclear, but that's also the case for covid-19. I apologize for posting a wikipedia link, but it contains the key information right at the top so I'm choosing this one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_mortality_from_H5N1
Also, sars-cov-2 is a much more severe virus. It has a significantly longer incubation period, it's more infective, and it also appears to be more deadly as well, although all those numbers vary between regions and through time.
There are various reasons why this doesn't show in the numbers (like death count) - because in the past 100 years we've become far more effective at fighting and understanding diseases (including viruses). This is despite significantly more and faster international travel happening today (including from and to less developed regions) and despite the population density being significantly greater. If healthcare, virology and epidemiology had not significantly improved in the past 100 years, then the world would be on its knees right now from this virus, and we'd wish it was "just" the Spanish flu.
https://www.indiatimes.com/technology/science-and-future/how-did-spanish-flu-pandemic-end-517334.html
Edit: here are maps showing the rate and speed of travel back in the 1910's.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3339902/What-travel-looked-like-100-years-ago-Map-shows-DAYS-took-travel-abroad-1900s.html
The only thing that is worse about the Spanish flu compared to sars-cov-2 is the rate of mutation, which at this time is estimated to be about 2x. This is good news in regards to sars-cov-2 as it means there's a greater likelihood of containing it by vaccination.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/coronavirus-seems-to-mutate-much-slower-than-seasonal-flu/ar-BB12e9fs
Considering all this, I think it's pretty safe to say that mass vaccination is the way to go. If you remain skeptical about the efficacy and side effects of various vaccines, feel free to ask questions.
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A poster currently arguing against coronavirus vaccine safety apparently chose his screen name based on his belief in the adverse health effects of vaccines (I’m still unclear on the exact details). Are you arguing that discussing that is politics unrelated to coronavirus?
I’m afraid you’re going to have to actually say your point, not just juxtapose quotes and gesture meaningfully. Or alternatively talk to mods if you think my posts are moderation-worthy.
Vax/anti-vax is political. I am clearly not arguing that discussing that is politics unrelated to coronavirus. The guidance for the thread is as follows:
This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here.
You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus. You must NOT discuss politics in here. I believe that what you were doing was attempting to discuss politics; its relation to coronavirus is irrelevant as stated in the guidance.
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Hmm. There’s a lot of interesting questions about what qualifies as politics there + Show Spoiler +Why is vax/anti-vax a political topic in the first place, as opposed to a purely scientific dispute? Is debating the safety and efficacy of a coronavirus vaccine inadmissible discussion? If not, how can that discussion be isolated from the larger questions about vaccines in general?
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Norway28736 Posts
My opinion is your posts have been entirely on point. The mod note is honestly a bit dated, but it felt important during the early stages of the virus, where there was more of a 'blame china' thing going around. The thread has seen plenty of 'what is the correct response to deal with the virus'- which is political in nature - and unless we want the thread to purely be an anecdote-version of worldometers (and I think that'd be kinda meh), then this has been a natural evolution of the thread.
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Imo discussions about vaccines, being politicised or not, are a core part of this thread.
This is a politicised issue, but in the core a scientific one that shouldn't be drowned out by politics.
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On December 08 2020 05:27 Artisreal wrote:
Imo discussions about vaccines, being politicised or not, are a core part of this thread.
This is a politicised issue, but in the core a scientific one that shouldn't be drowned out by politics.
Completely agree, and I think trying to change the discussion of vaccination from being a scientific discussion to a political discussion is actually disingenuous in nature. I actually really appreciated ChristianS's comment that medical ethics could perhaps be discussed, and that would be more political in nature, but the efficacy and utility of vaccines, either in general or in the specific for this virus, should be considered scientific by all means. The data thus far has shown the efficacy of all three vaccines major vaccines so far (Pfizer, Moderna, Astrazenica). Even with Astrazenica's botched trial, they showed 70% efficacy which is better than the flu vaccine the CDC recommends every year.
Honestly, I'd be happy to take them earlier if others choose to opt out. I'll take random vaccine side effects over random COVID19 side effects any day of the week. The vaccine death rate is probably 1/100th or less of COVID, and for those who are so vehemently opposed to masks, there will be no more mask wearing either!
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On December 08 2020 06:16 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2020 05:27 Artisreal wrote:
Imo discussions about vaccines, being politicised or not, are a core part of this thread.
This is a politicised issue, but in the core a scientific one that shouldn't be drowned out by politics. Completely agree, and I think trying to change the discussion of vaccination from being a scientific discussion to a political discussion is actually disingenuous in nature. I actually really appreciated ChristianS's comment that medical ethics could perhaps be discussed, and that would be more political in nature, but the efficacy and utility of vaccines, either in general or in the specific for this virus, should be considered scientific by all means. The data thus far has shown the efficacy of all three vaccines major vaccines so far (Pfizer, Moderna, Astrazenica). Even with Astrazenica's botched trial, they showed 70% efficacy which is better than the flu vaccine the CDC recommends every year. Honestly, I'd be happy to take them earlier if others choose to opt out. I'll take random vaccine side effects over random COVID19 side effects any day of the week. The vaccine death rate is probably 1/100th or less of COVID, and for those who are so vehemently opposed to masks, there will be no more mask wearing either!
There will be mask wearing until the vast majority are vaccinated, and the prevalence of covid drops to tiny levels. People already have fake mask exemption cards, ain't hard to fake a vaccine card, and claim you don't need to wear a mask either.
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Yeah, I was a little surprised that “woah, that’s what ‘Vivax’ meant all these years?” was what triggered a red flag and not the forced vaccination talk. To me that’s a much more obviously political question.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37058 Posts
On December 08 2020 05:27 Liquid`Drone wrote:
My opinion is your posts have been entirely on point. The mod note is honestly a bit dated, but it felt important during the early stages of the virus, where there was more of a 'blame china' thing going around. The thread has seen plenty of 'what is the correct response to deal with the virus'- which is political in nature - and unless we want the thread to purely be an anecdote-version of worldometers (and I think that'd be kinda meh), then this has been a natural evolution of the thread.
Yes, I agree with Drone. This:
This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here.
Is kind of an outdated policy now and it doesn't really need to be adhered to anymore. However, we're also not going to outright remove it from the public mod note because we don't want this thread devolving into a USPMT 2.0.
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Hi, Does anyone know where i can find all the results of the phase 3 study of the mrna vaccines online,i am looking for the scientific end reports. By searching i have found some of the data but not the official report.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/interactive-assets/nggraphics/nghistory-2003-flatten-the-curve-1918/build-2020-04-07_16-31-07/ngm-assets/img/nghistory-2003-flatten-the-curve-1918_ai2html_smalls-desktop-medium.jpg)
