EPTCoronavirus and You - Page 301
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Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control. It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you. Conspiracy theories and fear mongering will absolutely not be tolerated in this thread. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite fear needlessly. This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria310 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada5541 Posts
On December 04 2020 05:38 Magic Powers wrote: There are just too many comments in response to mine. I can't address all of them as I have things to do hopefully just like everyone else here. We can agree to disagree. Just take your time and respond when you have time. No one is in a rush. | ||
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Danglars
United States12079 Posts
On December 04 2020 05:04 arbiter_md wrote: His argument is: 1. Masks have not been proved to work. 2. If something is not proven, then it should not be forced on people. The reality is he doesn't like to wear a mask and doesn't want to say it directly. He wants his comfort. So, he is looking for ways to justify it scientifically. For that he needs to convince enough people that his theory is right, and the majority of medical advisors out there don't know what they are talking about. So, let's make him happy and tell him how we should throw away all the masks and move on with our happy lives! It is a very kind of nasty thing to feign understanding of his argument and then proceed to insult the person putting it forward as secretly making it for different reasons, specifically reasons that make him out to be an awful person. If he were to adopt your style of engagement, he would tell everybody engaging with him that they secretly don't care if masks work or not, but rather wish to dominate and rule over others for their own enjoyment. Do you see how this operates? | ||
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Longshank
1635 Posts
I don't think he's ever said not to follow what your government mandates but there are many valid concerns of what measures are effective and, as JimmyC admitted would take a long time, to what extent face mask mandates reduce the overall spread. The are numerous reports from the science community of how people are afraid to voice anything against the general concensus on this topic and that's fucked up. We still know so little of the virus and this pandemic. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada5541 Posts
On December 04 2020 08:31 Longshank wrote: Magic Powers makes perfect sense and anyone that tries to approach the issue without some vested political bias should be able to see it. It quite disgusting and in very bad faith how JimmyC represents his arguments. It's fine if you don't agree with him but this is silly. I don't think he's ever said not to follow what your government mandates but there are many valid concerns of what measures are effective and, as JimmyC admitted would take a long time, to what extent face mask mandates reduce the overall spread. The are numerous reports from the science community of how people are afraid to voice anything against the general concensus on this topic and that's fucked up. We still know so little of the virus and this pandemic. Nope, it is disgusting that people are putting so many at risk because of feelings over facts philosophy. Magic has stated, he is not a do nothing, but he has also stated he is against every measure. I'm just trying to figure out what that means. Thinking masks don't work (either as a mandate or the masks themselves) is akin to being a flat earther at this point. I'm not sure why so many people but more and more on the right seem to not understand that it is completely OK to have different opinions (favorite colour, sports team and so on) but that it is not OK to operate on a different set of untrue facts. It is extraordinarily dangerous. | ||
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Longshank
1635 Posts
On December 04 2020 08:41 JimmiC wrote: Nope, it is disgusting that people are putting so many at risk because of feelings over facts philosophy. Magic has stated, he is not a do nothing, but he has also stated he is against every measure. I'm just trying to figure out what that means. No he hasn't. He has also never said afaik that masks don't work. What more do you have that you can misrepresent? | ||
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JimmiC
Canada5541 Posts
On December 04 2020 08:47 Longshank wrote: No he hasn't. He has also never said afaik that masks don't work. What more do you have that you can misrepresent? Right, like I said masks and mandates, but it is hard for me to wrap my head around understanding that masks work, but thinking have more people wearing them does not, so it makes me question if the former is the case. True, there may be restrictions he supports I've asked which. So far he has come out against all the major ones (and the least intrusive ones) masks, social distancing, restrictions on businesses, everyone that has been discussed. So you are right I should have said every restriction discussed. You sir? Do you think masks work? Mask mandates? Social distancing? Rules around social distancing? Restrictions on businesses? | ||
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Mohdoo
United States13183 Posts
On December 04 2020 08:31 Longshank wrote: Magic Powers makes perfect sense and anyone that tries to approach the issue without some vested political bias should be able to see it. It quite disgusting and in very bad faith how JimmyC represents his arguments. It's fine if you don't agree with him but this is silly. I don't think he's ever said not to follow what your government mandates but there are many valid concerns of what measures are effective and, as JimmyC admitted would take a long time, to what extent face mask mandates reduce the overall spread. The are numerous reports from the science community of how people are afraid to voice anything against the general concensus on this topic and that's fucked up. We still know so little of the virus and this pandemic. I’m honestly curious. Please elaborate on how you think someone’s political disposition impacts their views in mask mandates. | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5266 Posts
On December 04 2020 13:41 Mohdoo wrote: I’m honestly curious. Please elaborate on how you think someone’s political disposition impacts their views in mask mandates. It has obviously become a political symbol when Trump refused to wear mask for a long time. Wearing a mask became a political statement independently of any other possible advantages. For example, watching the NBA playoffs it was quite clear how all the BLM symbols (on the court, the jersey's, in the breaks during time outs - on the face masks) were part and parcel of the same political messaging as the constant talk about wearing masks. I don't think I ever heard them speak about any other measures against the pandemic, but they literally talked about masks several times during every single broadcast. Of course, none of this strengthens or weakens the scientific argument about whether they work or not. I'm neutral but interested in this question. So, again, are there any studies made in the context of normal social setting that indicate that masks help and, if so, how much? The only study I've seen is the Danish one that seems to indicate that masks help very slightly. Thanks in advance and don't hate me. | ||
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Yurie
2749 Posts
Since there was a discussion about masks here I am linking it. Also lines up nicely with the post above that I didn't know asked for another study until I posted.  Below is an example from the article. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/YrqUUF7.jpg) As for if it is a good source or not, https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/proceedings-of-the-national-academy-of-sciences-of-the-united-states-of-america-pnas/ claims it is a good one. | ||
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Slydie
1172 Posts
On December 04 2020 15:49 Yurie wrote: Found an article summarizing masks impact in Germany: https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/12/02/2015954117 Since there was a discussion about masks here I am linking it. Also lines up nicely with the post above that I didn't know asked for another study until I posted. Below is an example from the article. As for if it is a good source or not, https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/proceedings-of-the-national-academy-of-sciences-of-the-united-states-of-america-pnas/ claims it is a good one. Thanks. There are a lot of questions mentioned in that study. Especially that a 75% reduction because of face mask use alone would include infections in a lot of areas where the masks are not even used. They also state a very plausible explaination: as a pioneer region in Germany, the new laws made them take every recommendation more seriously. In other areas, you could have the opposite effect. I am still curious how Spain, which has had the highest amount of mask usage in Europe for a long time, still suffered the fastest and biggest 2nd virus wave in Europe, all while Norway, which where mask use is very sparse, has a LOWER amount of excessive deaths than a normal year. Social distancing, especially in terms of domestic mobiilty, seem to have a massive effect in Spain, however, both posetively and negatively. Some graphs here: https://covid19.healthdata.org/spain?view=resource-use&tab=trend&resource=all_resources I firmly believen the effect of face masks is almost irrelelvant compared to other factors, but I still wear it all the time. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States13183 Posts
Nordic countries add vitamin d to a lot of foods whereas people in Spain think “If it’s sunny that means I get tons of vitamin d XD”, which is just totally wrong. People in worse climates have better vitamin d levels because they actually prioritize it through diet or supplements. Pointing to differences between Spain and Norway is not an effective way to determine if masks work. Fundamental science and a plethora of studies on masks is sufficient. It’s not like our only comparison is national averages. There’s so much more data out there than deaths per country that it sounds bizarre to pretend that’s sufficient to say “guess masks probably don’t work”. | ||
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Neneu
Norway427 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada5541 Posts
But here is what we know that is undeniable. 1. Masks work 2. Masks along with other measures have been very effective. 3. Mask wearing does not negatively impact economy 4. Mask wearing does not negatively impact people health I believe everyone on this thread would agree with the above. So even if is Slydie, Elrod and so on are right (which would very hard to prove or disprove) and masks are only a little bit effective, mandates still make sense because there is almost no down side. But if the majority here (and in the scientific and medical community) are right and they are fairly to really effective then they make even more sense. To the personal freedom argument, the governments make us cover up our "private" parts. No one complains and infact the ones who complain most about those who show skin have a massive cross over to the ones saying "the government can't make.me wear the masks. To the "but the economy" people, masks do not impact the economy. If they have any impact it would be positive in opening things up and delaying lockdowns. To the masks suck and are uncomfortable people, I agree but the other costs are way higher so some self sacrifice is needed. And to circle back to Danglars and others it is a strange coincidence that the moralizing on how the discussion is happening always seems to come up when there is no arguments left for the anti masks or the do nothing crowd. It is lame. And extra lame from Danglars who would not be the person who you would take advice on how to participate in these threads considering he does not seem to understand that racist jokes are not appropriate. So if you have an issue with my posting or others on this thread report it, I know you do over and over any how, but the getting on the soap box to moralize, while being famous for disingenuousness, is pretty funny but completely ineffective. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland15629 Posts
I don’t think there’s much point wearing them outdoors, nor does wearing a mask when frequenting businesses and then hanging around with friends/family in close quarters inoculate oneself, it’s not like you get positive credit for mask wearing that you can then balance out with risky behaviours. Honestly aside from clinical effectiveness, just do it for decency’s sake really. Not everyone has the luxury of working from home. I’m not one of them but plenty of my retail colleagues are stressed out the fucking eyeballs about contracting Covid. Mask adherence, distancing adherence really makes those people’s days more tolerable. | ||
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Sapaio
Denmark0 Posts
ekstrabladet.dk Do not know level allowed in other countries. | ||
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Longshank
1635 Posts
On December 04 2020 23:49 WombaT wrote: Just wear a fucking mask it’s really not that complicated. I don't think anyone in this thread has suggested that you shouldn't wear a mask if it's mandated in your region so I'm not sure who you're arguing against. I wear a mask 8-12 hours/day myself. That this, along with it being the same as anti-vaxxing, is the response to someone questioning the effectiveness of a universal mask mandate is evidence that we're not ready for this discussion. The day the experts and health authorities in some of the top performing countries also question the effectiveness of vaccination, then it's about equal. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada5541 Posts
On December 05 2020 00:55 Longshank wrote: I don't think anyone in this thread has suggested that you shouldn't wear a mask if it's mandated in your region so I'm not sure who you're arguing against. I wear a mask 8-12 hours/day myself. That this, along with it being the same as anti-vaxxing, is the response to someone questioning the effectiveness of a universal mask mandate is evidence that we're not ready for this discussion. The day the experts and health authorities in some of the top performing countries also question the effectiveness of vaccination, then it's about equal. can you link the experts and health authorities questions the effectiveness of masks? Try to have it recent. Thanks. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States13183 Posts
On December 04 2020 22:46 Neneu wrote: Yeah the lack of vitamin D from the sun here is brutal. I remember reading an article of how we won't get enough vitamin D with 6 hours of outdoor activity (in Denmark), before the end of April, even with our extremely pale winter skin. The thing is, this is also true in Spain, Italy and all sunny regions. People have let the fact that being inside helps vitamin D levels make them think being outside is entirely sufficient. But that isn't true, so people in nordic countries have HIGHER vitamin D levels than sunny regions, since you guys add it to foods by default. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria310 Posts
On December 04 2020 09:49 JimmiC wrote: Right, like I said masks and mandates, but it is hard for me to wrap my head around understanding that masks work, but thinking have more people wearing them does not, so it makes me question if the former is the case. True, there may be restrictions he supports I've asked which. So far he has come out against all the major ones (and the least intrusive ones) masks, social distancing, restrictions on businesses, everyone that has been discussed. So you are right I should have said every restriction discussed. You sir? Do you think masks work? Mask mandates? Social distancing? Rules around social distancing? Restrictions on businesses? I've not once spoken out against social distancing, in fact I said I consider it to be the most effective method. I also haven't said that there should be no restrictions on businesses. | ||
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