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On July 14 2020 14:07 Kipsate wrote: Nobody wears a mask here apart from public transport where is mandator (people also immideately remove it on exiting public transport). Schools are also pretty much fully open. Both have been the status quo here for a long time and we havent seen any increase at all.
That's how it works when you have so few to begin with. Exponential growth, by nature, is a much bigger issue with larger numbers. That's why Florida is completely nuts whereas Oregon significantly going up is still.not a lot
I'm a little bit curious: Many countries got their infection numbers down without any rule of wearing masks on the street! Here in Germany we never had it, Netherlands were mentioned, ... I admit, don't have too much information about most European countries and such a ruling. I currently read that Great Britain wants to start enforcing wearing masks in shops ... they didn't have this yet? Ok, so I'm quite sure they didn't wear masks on the street... Did Spain had that in effect? Did they stop it and now started it again? Anyone knows more?
Also I admit I'm still confused about this. Virologists everywhere tell that it is incredible rare to get infected on the outside - aside basically coughing into each others faces and keeping no distance. So why are so many people fixated on that?
On July 14 2020 15:03 Geisterkarle wrote: I'm a little bit curious: Many countries got their infection numbers down without any rule of wearing masks on the street! Here in Germany we never had it, Netherlands were mentioned, ... I admit, don't have too much information about most European countries and such a ruling. I currently read that Great Britain wants to start enforcing wearing masks in shops ... they didn't have this yet? Ok, so I'm quite sure they didn't wear masks on the street... Did Spain had that in effect? Did they stop it and now started it again? Anyone knows more?
Also I admit I'm still confused about this. Virologists everywhere tell that it is incredible rare to get infected on the outside - aside basically coughing into each others faces and keeping no distance. So why are so many people fixated on that?
Spain doesn't have a single set of rules for masks: every state does their own thing. In Catalonia it is mandatory to use a mask outside. It didn't used to be, but I guess people were relaxing to much, and this was one of the measures the government could take to make it clear this whole situation is still far from over.
Back in 2005, WoW had a virtual pandemic and you wound up with a disease that spread pretty uncontrollably for a week. There's a comparison in there now to the current pandemic that's a fun read:
Comparison to the COVID-19 pandemic The Corrupted Blood incident has been compared to the COVID-19 pandemic, and epidemiologists who studied the Corrupted Blood outbreak are using the research from the incident to better understand coronavirus's spread - primarily its sociological factors.[23][24][25][26][27] Dr. Eric Lofgren, an epidemiologist and co-author of a research paper about Corrupted Blood, stated in an interview with PC Gamer that "When people react to public health emergencies, how those reactions really shape the course of things. We often view epidemics as these things that sort of happen to people. There's a virus and it's doing things. But really it's a virus that's spreading between people, and how people interact and behave and comply with authority figures, or don't, those are all very important things. And also that these things are very chaotic. You can't really predict 'oh yeah, everyone will quarantine. It'll be fine.' No, they won't."[23][24][25][26] Griefing, such as players intentionally spreading Corrupted Blood to others, was one of the aspects of the Corrupted Blood study that has been criticized as lacking a real-world basis; Dr. Lofgren expressed in the wake of the coronavirus epidemic that "one of the critiques we got from a lot of people, both gamers and scientists, was over this idea of griefing, ... How griefing isn't really analogous to anything that takes place in the real world. People aren't intentionally getting people sick. And they might not be intentionally getting people sick, but wilfully ignoring your potential to get people sick is pretty close to that. You start to see people like 'oh this isn't a big deal, I'm not going to change my behavior.' ... Epidemics are a social problem... Minimizing the seriousness of something is sort of real-world griefing."[23]
The Corrupted Blood incident was abrupt and far-reaching; Dr. Lofgren expressed that this abruptness is a property of a real pandemic, stating "Corrupted Blood was this unexpected black swan event. We treat this [coronavirus] as if it's unexpected, but nature is really good at getting people sick".[23][26] Dr. Nina Fefferman, a co-author of the Corrupted Blood study, expressed that the incident particularly exemplified "how people perceive threats and how differences in that perception can change how they behave", and how people discuss a threat on social media, stating that "A lot of my work since then has been in trying to build models of the social construction of risk perception and I don't think I would have come to that as easily if I hadn't spent time thinking about the discussions WoW players had in real time about Corrupted Blood and how to act in the game based on the understanding they built from those discussions."[23][24][26]
On July 15 2020 07:53 farvacola wrote: Was playing Horde on Shattered Hand when that happened, it wasn’t pretty
Hey me too! *High fives*
Yeah the incident were quite interesting, both as an experiment of how a contagious disease might spread and how it impacted the players as a society. Little did I know back then that it would be a thing we would be writing articles about in 2020.
the only reason numbers went down here was the emergency, then later the state of alert, instituted by our gov; they came with rules and fines and people were forced to adhere to or fear them(respectively).
few weeks ago our constitutional court declared that quarantine, isolation(forced or voluntary) and mandatory hospitalization for covid patients were unconstitutional(covid is pure politics here; PSD, which holds parliamentary majority and has a good/ferm grasp on the judicial, squabbles with PNL which holds a temporary government and is an ally of the president). there's a law to make all those legal, dragging through the parliament; it passed the lower house(chamber of deputies) but PSD stalls it in the Senate because <reasons>.
after that declaration, people covid positive started leaving hospitals at their own request while others left quarantine/isolation. that, plus tourism and we're at 600+ and it'll only go up for a while(i'm guessing at least two-three weeks).
the police still issues fines but people don't seem to care about them; the fines started in march but when the constitutional court declared them unconstitutional two times in a row(first the fines during the emergency state then the fines during the state of alert) people stopped giving a shit.
Also important to note is that masks weren't mandatory in EU countries for a bad reason. We didnt have masks at the time so yeah, politicians decided it wasn't mandatory (they blamed it on scientifics not all agreeing etc. but yeah, we just didnt have masks). I'm pretty sure that if we had supplies, masks rules would have been a thing.
I dont think that is true for all EU countries. In Poland mask rules went into effect when there was not enough of them for entire population. People were making them on their own or came up with other solutions (like transparent plastic face covers).
On July 14 2020 14:07 Kipsate wrote: Nobody wears a mask here apart from public transport where is mandator (people also immideately remove it on exiting public transport). Schools are also pretty much fully open. Both have been the status quo here for a long time and we havent seen any increase at all.
Same in Denmark, actually people don't even wear mask in public transport because it's not mandated by the government. The only people i've seen wear a mask are elders and families visiting elders in retirement homes or hospital to protect them
On July 14 2020 06:34 Wombat_NI wrote: I’m curious as to how necessary masks are if social distancing is religiously observed?
Of course yes, mask uptake would definitely help especially as things are reopening to something more akin to normality, and the vocal anti-mask people probably aren’t doing social distancing right either.
Just genuinely curious on this, not making any kind of point as to the desirability of increased mask uptake.
So long as masks have a benefit, you should always be wearing them.
This is a good explanation:
The info was interesting but has no basis to draw conclusions. The imaging they use is cool for a presentation for TV but it's not very scientific as an approach to address the concerns with viruses and everyday use.
The claim to see "microdroplets" in the second technique had no positive control or corroborating test to validate it detects all particles relevant to this question. It showed a petri dish that detected bacteria, but we're talking about virus particles . . . what the hell? The idea about preventing particles from reaching a small size seems interesting but where is the data from?? This is probably the most important question, and they showed nothing to source it. We do know from actual studies with positive patients in Korea that a positive patient will have a lot of small particles sitting on the outside of his mask. How do we know these remain static and avoid getting freed in small particles that they claim happens to the small sizes if one coughs without a mask? In addition, how does this differ in environments with different air flow and with different mask types and different degrees of coverage? AFAIK, no one has actually attempted to test this. We do not seem to have good data for this question, not even data comparing the epidemiology with mask use and transmission rates (?).
Another issue with the video is that most people do not have appropriate masks worn in an approrpiate way. I rarely see a real medical masks in public, it seems more common to see bandanas. The video presumably used surgical grade or better, but oddly they did not say. I don't recognize what the presenter used. Also, medical masks are meant to be single use, but most that I know reuse the same one often. There is a question on what happens when you do. Then we can ask what happens when the mask gets wet with sweat during these high temp days? Also, medical masks are designed to work in conjunction with other materials and be worn tightly, something also not done in practice.
As a side note, I kind of dislike the mask requirement for everyone because a lot of us have been infected. I think I was, so the only purpose would be to reassure people. There is also substantial data suggesting young children do not transmit, in which case we should consider letting them off.
On July 14 2020 06:34 Wombat_NI wrote: I’m curious as to how necessary masks are if social distancing is religiously observed?
Of course yes, mask uptake would definitely help especially as things are reopening to something more akin to normality, and the vocal anti-mask people probably aren’t doing social distancing right either.
Just genuinely curious on this, not making any kind of point as to the desirability of increased mask uptake.
So long as masks have a benefit, you should always be wearing them.
The info was interesting but has no basis to draw conclusions. The imaging they use is cool for a presentation for TV but it's not very scientific as an approach to address the concerns with viruses and everyday use.
The claim to see "microdroplets" in the second technique had no positive control or corroborating test to validate it detects all particles relevant to this question. It showed a petri dish that detected bacteria, but we're talking about virus particles . . . what the hell? The idea about preventing particles from reaching a small size seems interesting but where is the data from?? This is probably the most important question, and they showed nothing to source it. We do know from actual studies with positive patients in Korea that a positive patient will have a lot of small particles sitting on the outside of his mask. How do we know these remain static and avoid getting freed in small particles that they claim happens to the small sizes if one coughs without a mask? In addition, how does this differ in environments with different air flow and with different mask types and different degrees of coverage? AFAIK, no one has actually attempted to test this. We do not seem to have good data for this question, not even data comparing the epidemiology with mask use and transmission rates (?).
Another issue with the video is that most people do not have appropriate masks worn in an approrpiate way. I rarely see a real medical masks in public, it seems more common to see bandanas. The video presumably used surgical grade or better, but oddly they did not say. I don't recognize what the presenter used. Also, medical masks are meant to be single use, but most that I know reuse the same one often. There is a question on what happens when you do. Then we can ask what happens when the mask gets wet with sweat during these high temp days? Also, medical masks are designed to work in conjunction with other materials and be worn tightly, something also not done in practice.
As a side note, I kind of dislike the mask requirement for everyone because a lot of us have been infected. I think I was, so the only purpose would be to reassure people. There is also substantial data suggesting young children do not transmit, in which case we should consider letting them off.
Can't really bother to address all your points, but lets say you're an american, less than 2% of the population got infected. Children transmit the disease. Surgeons have been using masks to protect their patients for a long ass time. Masks works yadda yadda
On July 14 2020 06:34 Wombat_NI wrote: I’m curious as to how necessary masks are if social distancing is religiously observed?
Of course yes, mask uptake would definitely help especially as things are reopening to something more akin to normality, and the vocal anti-mask people probably aren’t doing social distancing right either.
Just genuinely curious on this, not making any kind of point as to the desirability of increased mask uptake.
So long as masks have a benefit, you should always be wearing them.
The info was interesting but has no basis to draw conclusions. The imaging they use is cool for a presentation for TV but it's not very scientific as an approach to address the concerns with viruses and everyday use.
The claim to see "microdroplets" in the second technique had no positive control or corroborating test to validate it detects all particles relevant to this question. It showed a petri dish that detected bacteria, but we're talking about virus particles . . . what the hell? The idea about preventing particles from reaching a small size seems interesting but where is the data from?? This is probably the most important question, and they showed nothing to source it. We do know from actual studies with positive patients in Korea that a positive patient will have a lot of small particles sitting on the outside of his mask. How do we know these remain static and avoid getting freed in small particles that they claim happens to the small sizes if one coughs without a mask? In addition, how does this differ in environments with different air flow and with different mask types and different degrees of coverage? AFAIK, no one has actually attempted to test this. We do not seem to have good data for this question, not even data comparing the epidemiology with mask use and transmission rates (?).
Another issue with the video is that most people do not have appropriate masks worn in an approrpiate way. I rarely see a real medical masks in public, it seems more common to see bandanas. The video presumably used surgical grade or better, but oddly they did not say. I don't recognize what the presenter used. Also, medical masks are meant to be single use, but most that I know reuse the same one often. There is a question on what happens when you do. Then we can ask what happens when the mask gets wet with sweat during these high temp days? Also, medical masks are designed to work in conjunction with other materials and be worn tightly, something also not done in practice.
As a side note, I kind of dislike the mask requirement for everyone because a lot of us have been infected. I think I was, so the only purpose would be to reassure people. There is also substantial data suggesting young children do not transmit, in which case we should consider letting them off.
Can't really bother to address all your points, but lets say you're an american, less than 2% of the population got infected. Children transmit the disease. Surgeons have been using masks to protect their patients for a long ass time. Masks works yadda yadda
It is unlikely less than 2% of the people got infected. Don't tell me you're just dividing the number of reported cases by the population?
In the US that is below 1% but we fall far short of testing the entire population, so there is no way I see to justify your claim. Other methods (antibody tests) suggested the number was far higher. We won't know unless antibody tests are more accurate. NY antibody tests from a while ago suggested 40% or so plus had CoV2 antibodies (again, these are unsure given false positives and detection of similar Abs), but it is not alone in reaching this conclusion. Moreover, I looked at NY #s from covidtracking.com for percent of cases and deaths, and with the way their infection has stayed flat recently, it seems to suggest they may have a decent amount of immunity there (because they sure as hell have not been distancing safely in the last month +). Will be interesting to see if that holds true.
As for your other claims... yada yda, thanks for the info. Sources? I think you're not noticing the nuance of various questions. A general statement like surgeons using masks has no informative value here, because no one said surgeons shouldn't use masks.
On July 14 2020 06:34 Wombat_NI wrote: I’m curious as to how necessary masks are if social distancing is religiously observed?
Of course yes, mask uptake would definitely help especially as things are reopening to something more akin to normality, and the vocal anti-mask people probably aren’t doing social distancing right either.
Just genuinely curious on this, not making any kind of point as to the desirability of increased mask uptake.
So long as masks have a benefit, you should always be wearing them.
The info was interesting but has no basis to draw conclusions. The imaging they use is cool for a presentation for TV but it's not very scientific as an approach to address the concerns with viruses and everyday use.
The claim to see "microdroplets" in the second technique had no positive control or corroborating test to validate it detects all particles relevant to this question. It showed a petri dish that detected bacteria, but we're talking about virus particles . . . what the hell? The idea about preventing particles from reaching a small size seems interesting but where is the data from?? This is probably the most important question, and they showed nothing to source it. We do know from actual studies with positive patients in Korea that a positive patient will have a lot of small particles sitting on the outside of his mask. How do we know these remain static and avoid getting freed in small particles that they claim happens to the small sizes if one coughs without a mask? In addition, how does this differ in environments with different air flow and with different mask types and different degrees of coverage? AFAIK, no one has actually attempted to test this. We do not seem to have good data for this question, not even data comparing the epidemiology with mask use and transmission rates (?).
Another issue with the video is that most people do not have appropriate masks worn in an approrpiate way. I rarely see a real medical masks in public, it seems more common to see bandanas. The video presumably used surgical grade or better, but oddly they did not say. I don't recognize what the presenter used. Also, medical masks are meant to be single use, but most that I know reuse the same one often. There is a question on what happens when you do. Then we can ask what happens when the mask gets wet with sweat during these high temp days? Also, medical masks are designed to work in conjunction with other materials and be worn tightly, something also not done in practice.
As a side note, I kind of dislike the mask requirement for everyone because a lot of us have been infected. I think I was, so the only purpose would be to reassure people. There is also substantial data suggesting young children do not transmit, in which case we should consider letting them off.
Can't really bother to address all your points, but lets say you're an american, less than 2% of the population got infected. Children transmit the disease. Surgeons have been using masks to protect their patients for a long ass time. Masks works yadda yadda
It is unlikely less than 2% of the people got infected. Don't tell me you're just dividing the number of reported cases by the population?
In the US that is below 1% but we fall far short of testing the entire population, so there is no way I see to justify your claim. Other methods (antibody tests) suggested the number was far higher. We won't know unless antibody tests are more accurate. NY antibody tests from a while ago suggested 40% or so plus had CoV2 antibodies (again, these are unsure given false positives and detection of similar Abs), but it is not alone in reaching this conclusion. Moreover, I looked at NY #s from covidtracking.com for percent of cases and deaths, and with the way their infection has stayed flat recently, it seems to suggest they may have a decent amount of immunity there (because they sure as hell have not been distancing safely in the last month +). Will be interesting to see if that holds true.
As for your other claims... yada yda, thanks for the info. Sources? I think you're not noticing the nuance of various questions. A general statement like surgeons using masks has no informative value here, because no one said surgeons shouldn't use masks.
Well, what other numbers would you use than the total of infected people found in the US ? Do you want me to magic some number and say "I believe that at least 40% of americans got it despite the official numbers saying only 1%" ? My other "claims" have been verified multiples time, you can probably go backward in this thread and see other people having the same "thoughts" as you, namely masks don't work, kids are fine. Btw unlikely != impossible. And if anyone knows kids, they're walking petri dishes. New York is doing fine since Cuomo is enforcing masks. w0w
On July 14 2020 06:34 Wombat_NI wrote: I’m curious as to how necessary masks are if social distancing is religiously observed?
Of course yes, mask uptake would definitely help especially as things are reopening to something more akin to normality, and the vocal anti-mask people probably aren’t doing social distancing right either.
Just genuinely curious on this, not making any kind of point as to the desirability of increased mask uptake.
So long as masks have a benefit, you should always be wearing them.
The info was interesting but has no basis to draw conclusions. The imaging they use is cool for a presentation for TV but it's not very scientific as an approach to address the concerns with viruses and everyday use.
The claim to see "microdroplets" in the second technique had no positive control or corroborating test to validate it detects all particles relevant to this question. It showed a petri dish that detected bacteria, but we're talking about virus particles . . . what the hell? The idea about preventing particles from reaching a small size seems interesting but where is the data from?? This is probably the most important question, and they showed nothing to source it. We do know from actual studies with positive patients in Korea that a positive patient will have a lot of small particles sitting on the outside of his mask. How do we know these remain static and avoid getting freed in small particles that they claim happens to the small sizes if one coughs without a mask? In addition, how does this differ in environments with different air flow and with different mask types and different degrees of coverage? AFAIK, no one has actually attempted to test this. We do not seem to have good data for this question, not even data comparing the epidemiology with mask use and transmission rates (?).
Another issue with the video is that most people do not have appropriate masks worn in an approrpiate way. I rarely see a real medical masks in public, it seems more common to see bandanas. The video presumably used surgical grade or better, but oddly they did not say. I don't recognize what the presenter used. Also, medical masks are meant to be single use, but most that I know reuse the same one often. There is a question on what happens when you do. Then we can ask what happens when the mask gets wet with sweat during these high temp days? Also, medical masks are designed to work in conjunction with other materials and be worn tightly, something also not done in practice.
As a side note, I kind of dislike the mask requirement for everyone because a lot of us have been infected. I think I was, so the only purpose would be to reassure people. There is also substantial data suggesting young children do not transmit, in which case we should consider letting them off.
Can't really bother to address all your points, but lets say you're an american, less than 2% of the population got infected. Children transmit the disease. Surgeons have been using masks to protect their patients for a long ass time. Masks works yadda yadda
It is unlikely less than 2% of the people got infected. Don't tell me you're just dividing the number of reported cases by the population?
In the US that is below 1% but we fall far short of testing the entire population, so there is no way I see to justify your claim. Other methods (antibody tests) suggested the number was far higher. We won't know unless antibody tests are more accurate. NY antibody tests from a while ago suggested 40% or so plus had CoV2 antibodies (again, these are unsure given false positives and detection of similar Abs), but it is not alone in reaching this conclusion. Moreover, I looked at NY #s from covidtracking.com for percent of cases and deaths, and with the way their infection has stayed flat recently, it seems to suggest they may have a decent amount of immunity there (because they sure as hell have not been distancing safely in the last month +). Will be interesting to see if that holds true.
As for your other claims... yada yda, thanks for the info. Sources? I think you're not noticing the nuance of various questions. A general statement like surgeons using masks has no informative value here, because no one said surgeons shouldn't use masks.
Well, what other numbers would you use than the total of infected people found in the US ? Do you want me to magic some number and say "I believe that at least 40% of americans got it despite the official numbers saying only 1%" ? My other "claims" have been verified multiples time, you can probably go backward in this thread and see other people having the same "thoughts" as you, namely masks don't work, kids are fine. Btw unlikely != impossible. And if anyone knows kids, they're walking petri dishes. New York is doing fine since Cuomo is enforcing masks. w0w
. . .
What the heck, are you not reading or intentionally misrepresenting me? I said 40% came from an antibody test, not a magic number.
I also said impossible is not what is being debated. No one cares if a rare amount of kids can do it if it is such a low occurrence that it is not a significant concern. . . If there is something I did not address, you might at least specify what it is, instead of saying it's wrong but I can't tell you why, just go search line by line the entire thread.
NY doing fine because of Cuomo and masks is purely speculative. I've seen a lot of pics at NYC protests with unmaksed faces. I don't think we have data on the mask use compared to various other places. In general, I would caution against praising Cumo's decisions as a whole because NY had the worst deaths per capita of anywhere in the US, and I think the entire world. How does NY manage to have over 2X the death rate of a country that didn't lockdown ?
Are you really asking how a state containing the most densely populated city in the United States that alone has more than double Sweden's population has a significantly higher death rate than the entire country of Sweden?
The virus makes no sense at all and i dont understand it anymore. We (the netherlands) are pretty much are back in the same situation as at the start of the outbreak,yet in march this let to an explosion of cases and now from almost the same starting situation there is no explosion of cases. Same for new york in the usa,while i asume there must be a lot of interstate and international travel towards and from new york still. Why does it not let to an explosion of cases this time,i honestly dont understand.
What has changed here when compared to march:
-Better hygiene (hand washing) -Social distancing (though many people dont follow this anymore) -No mass events -Non medical masks in public transport
Infections are estimated to have maxed out below 10% of the population,so it can not be some sort of immunity either. If the virus was airborne cases should have exploded. Non medical masks provide virtually no protection against airborne virus (and specially not the way most people seem to wear them). Yet the superspread events seem to point to the virus beeing airborne in at least some situations. It all so weird. Then also halve the people showing no symptoms,while for others the disease is very severe. Is there any other virus with such a wide range of impact on different people?
On July 15 2020 23:45 pmh wrote: The virus makes no sense at all and i dont understand it anymore. We (the netherlands) are pretty much are back in the same situation as at the start of the outbreak,yet in march this let to an explosion of cases and now from almost the same starting situation there is no explosion of cases. Same for new york in the usa,while i asume there must be a lot of interstate and international travel towards and from new york still. Why does it not let to an explosion of cases this time,i honestly dont understand.
What has changed here when compared to march:
-Better hygiene (hand washing) -Social distancing (though many people dont follow this anymore) -No mass events -Non medical masks in public transport
Infections are estimated to have maxed out below 10% of the population,so it can not be some sort of immunity either. If the virus was airborne cases should have exploded. Non medical masks provide virtually no protection against airborne virus (and specially not the way most people seem to wear them). Yet the superspread events seem to point to the virus beeing airborne in at least some situations. It all so weird. Then also halve the people showing no symptoms,while for others the disease is very severe. Is there any other virus with such a wide range of impact on different people?
I don't think this is the case. NY and NJ have taken extremely strong measures to quarantine, reduce travel, and promote smart behavior, and the results have been great so far. This is in stark contrast to, say, the southern states, who are all doing worse now and have lost control over their situations.
EPT
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/xDjx22Y.png)
