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On July 13 2020 18:49 Furikawari wrote: Worth to note that since we dismissed some of the protective measures (and people are probably more careless) the number of cases is also raising in France. People celebrated victory far too early.
Same in Spain... and apparently it's unconstitutional for the autonomous communities to reinstate localized lockdowns: this can only be done with emergency powers, and only the federal government can declare a state of emergency. This is going to be such a political shitshow... and meanwhile of course, the corona virus is even less under control.
I can't see any indication of cases rising in either France or Spain according to Worldmeters. Is there more reliable data out there?
Not really, it's just feelings at the moment: * Major newspaper (Le Monde) reports increase in cluster numbers (more than 300 for the end of last week? seems crazy to me) * Some high profile medical workers / officials are also expressing concern about the current situation.
Overall it looks like the politicians decided it had to be over for summer holidays. Apparently the virus does not agree.
French people are definitely more careless. A few rave parties going on, protests without masks, less than 1/3 wearing masks in the street, and some relaxing in companies. I'd be in favor of enforcing mask usage inside (not just inside shops), that should be enough to barely lower the numbers again and keep on riding the lowering tide.
Currently youngsters couldn't care less and want to keep partying. I see nearly no one <35 wearing a mask in the street.
On a good note, I was complaining about France's testing and its lack of data a few days ago. Well it has been finally updated, and with good numbers : https://dashboard.covid19.data.gouv.fr/suivi-des-tests?location=FRA There WAS a large increase in testing around mid-may, so our figures look now more in line with most other countries at 60k tests/day. It's in coherence with the ~1.2% test positivity reported the previous weeks, with around 4-600 positives cases a day.
Still too few though (1/3 total tests at best of other european countries), but better than the horrendous numbers reported prior.
I don't know where in France you are, but I would recommend not crossing the border to Germany, because you seem to be really into masks and here - at least in my area - if you look at 100 persons and see one(1) of them wearing a mask in the streets you are lucky! (no, I'm not it!) We have to wear masks if we go into a shop or supermarket or similar, aside from that we are flying free!
On July 14 2020 04:38 Geisterkarle wrote: I don't know where in France you are, but I would recommend not crossing the border to Germany, because you seem to be really into masks and here - at least in my area - if you look at 100 persons and see one(1) of them wearing a mask in the streets you are lucky! (no, I'm not it!) We have to wear masks if we go into a shop or supermarket or similar, aside from that we are flying free!
West of Paris, but still in Ile de France. I'm not shocked, Germany has done well, lots of testing and containing and I don't see an increasing trend in cases for the last few weeks. Here it is coming back slowly, so it'd be better and easier to be careful now rather than too late.
I mean, it's a trade-off. I'd rather people play it safe in easy, indoor places, so that we can keep for example restaurants mostly open. If we get a second wave, it will either cost a LOT, or you get 40% less restaurants and hotels next year. It's just, I now see a lot of people in the supermarket without a mask, or security guards not enforcing gel use (and then they touch fruits etc). It wasn't like that 2 monthes ago, so people just care less currently.
On July 13 2020 18:49 Furikawari wrote: Worth to note that since we dismissed some of the protective measures (and people are probably more careless) the number of cases is also raising in France. People celebrated victory far too early.
Same in Spain... and apparently it's unconstitutional for the autonomous communities to reinstate localized lockdowns: this can only be done with emergency powers, and only the federal government can declare a state of emergency. This is going to be such a political shitshow... and meanwhile of course, the corona virus is even less under control.
I can't see any indication of cases rising in either France or Spain according to Worldmeters. Is there more reliable data out there?
Maybe statistics are lagging, or maybe we're just way more alarmist about a few dozen cases than we were back when this all started, but the newspaper is full of concern, and all of the politics surrounding what to do, about the pockets of virus that are popping up. Particularly a region called Segria here in Catalonia is of concern, and they wanted to reinstate a travel ban for that region. The court struck it down, so the "best" they can do is issue urgent "do not travel" advice... which may or may not be sufficient.
Is there a reason why governors/mayors don’t just make it a law to require a mask/covering when outside? Hawaii did this MONTHS ago but I keep hearing and seeing this as an issue with other states. Is it cause it can’t simply be enforced? Genuinely curious.
On July 14 2020 06:01 Emnjay808 wrote: Is there a reason why governors/mayors don’t just make it a law to require a mask/covering when outside? Hawaii did this MONTHS ago but I keep hearing and seeing this as an issue with other states. Is it cause it can’t simply be enforced? Genuinely curious.
Because they want to be re-elected, which means if 70% of your population doesn't like wearing masks, better not enforce it.
On July 14 2020 06:01 Emnjay808 wrote: Is there a reason why governors/mayors don’t just make it a law to require a mask/covering when outside? Hawaii did this MONTHS ago but I keep hearing and seeing this as an issue with other states. Is it cause it can’t simply be enforced? Genuinely curious.
Because they want to be re-elected, which means if 70% of your population doesn't like wearing masks, better not enforce it.
This. Despite it being objectively safer, a lot of Americans don't take too kindly to anything mandatory. Freedom to be selfish and the inalienable right to risk the lives of others, etc.
I’m curious as to how necessary masks are if social distancing is religiously observed?
Of course yes, mask uptake would definitely help especially as things are reopening to something more akin to normality, and the vocal anti-mask people probably aren’t doing social distancing right either.
Just genuinely curious on this, not making any kind of point as to the desirability of increased mask uptake.
On July 14 2020 06:34 Wombat_NI wrote: I’m curious as to how necessary masks are if social distancing is religiously observed?
Of course yes, mask uptake would definitely help especially as things are reopening to something more akin to normality, and the vocal anti-mask people probably aren’t doing social distancing right either.
Just genuinely curious on this, not making any kind of point as to the desirability of increased mask uptake.
So long as masks have a benefit, you should always be wearing them.
Wonder if normalizing masks wouldn't be better covid19 or not. A intelligent usage of them would reduces deaths during flu season as well. And let's not kid ourselves, it will be easier when the next chinese virus hits.
On July 14 2020 06:49 Erasme wrote: Wonder if normalizing masks wouldn't be better covid19 or not. A intelligent usage of them would reduces deaths during flu season as well. And let's not kid ourselves, it will be easier when the next chinese virus hits.
For me it's kinda weird because shops I would get yelled at for forgetting to take down my hoodie now have to allow me to come in with my face intentionally covered.
I'm personally more worried about the next American virus than anything out of China though.
On July 14 2020 06:34 Wombat_NI wrote: I’m curious as to how necessary masks are if social distancing is religiously observed?
Of course yes, mask uptake would definitely help especially as things are reopening to something more akin to normality, and the vocal anti-mask people probably aren’t doing social distancing right either.
Just genuinely curious on this, not making any kind of point as to the desirability of increased mask uptake.
In Norway we've dealt very well with Covid with nearly 0 mask-wearing. Like I think I've seen literally less than 5 people wearing masks since the outbreak.
But we were really, really adamant about social distancing during the most intense period, to the point where only people who really had to work went to work and where literally all my friends stayed home with 0 social interaction for a 6 week period. Washing/disinfecting hands very strictly adhered to, too.
All that said, population density is one of the main determining factors, so what works for Norway can't be assumed to work for large metropolitan areas with nearly twice Norway's population in 1/500th of the area.
Lots of studies have suggested very limited spread outdoors. Beyond that, one good reason to not mandate masks outside is that you actually want to incentivise people to be outdoors. If you have to wear a mask outdoors at 30°C then you might as well stay in and overall that's worse.
On July 14 2020 10:31 warding wrote: Lots of studies have suggested very limited spread outdoors. Beyond that, one good reason to not mandate masks outside is that you actually want to incentivise people to be outdoors. If you have to wear a mask outdoors at 30°C then you might as well stay in and overall that's worse.
It appears that in terms of seed colonies, it has a specific range it needs to take hold, and below that, you're fine, but above that, you're definitely gonna get it. Between churches, elevators and bars, it is clear that certain situations need to be completely turned off. There should not be a single church, bar, gym or restaurant operating during this.
People are just so unbelievably entitled. Why in the world do people feel like they need to still have sit down restaurants during a pandemic? Good fucking lord its infuriating. Such incredible entitlement.
On July 14 2020 06:34 Wombat_NI wrote: I’m curious as to how necessary masks are if social distancing is religiously observed?
The mistake is treating these as independent things. People's adherence to easier infection control measures directly relates to their perceived severity of the pandemic.
"We don't need to lockdown if people wear masks and social distance." "We don't need masks if people social distance properly."
These aren't unrelated things though. The less serious people believe the pandemic to be, the less likely they are to social distance properly. As soon as the lockdowns ended, a ton of people stopped wearing masks. If you stop requiring masks, way less people will be social distancing.
On July 14 2020 06:34 Wombat_NI wrote: I’m curious as to how necessary masks are if social distancing is religiously observed?
The mistake is treating these as independent things. People's adherence to easier infection control measures directly relates to their perceived severity of the pandemic.
"We don't need to lockdown if people wear masks and social distance." "We don't need masks if people social distance properly."
These aren't unrelated things though. The less serious people believe the pandemic to be, the less likely they are to social distance properly. As soon as the lockdowns ended, a ton of people stopped wearing masks. If you stop requiring masks, way less people will be social distancing.
Well this is true, don’t disagree equally it’s quite an anecdotal thread.
And the anecdotal accounts, mine included seem to be that mask uptake is pretty damn low, even in European countries that have dealt well with this pandemic thus far.
As Drone laid out for example in response to my initial query, or others have said. Outside of Belfast Northern Ireland isn’t especially densely populated so I assume there’s some commonality with Norway there.
With the US spiking quite alarmingly I posed the query really to figure out why that was the case. As the Euros in general, to my knowledge the Anzac countries either still haven’t adopted mask wearing into their cultural practices, I was curious as to the disparity, which I can only put down to differences in adherence to other social distancing measures, or the process of opening up and how that’s being done.
I agree with what you say, and mask usage even outside of pandemic periods would be a cultural import I’d like to see from Asian cultures.
I think the Italy thing was a combination of region specificity initially, which caused massive hospital overload in a very short time and the average age of the people being infected. I dont know about Spain though. What Simberto said does make sense as well.
On July 14 2020 10:31 warding wrote: Lots of studies have suggested very limited spread outdoors. Beyond that, one good reason to not mandate masks outside is that you actually want to incentivise people to be outdoors. If you have to wear a mask outdoors at 30°C then you might as well stay in and overall that's worse.
It appears that in terms of seed colonies, it has a specific range it needs to take hold, and below that, you're fine, but above that, you're definitely gonna get it. Between churches, elevators and bars, it is clear that certain situations need to be completely turned off. There should not be a single church, bar, gym or restaurant operating during this.
People are just so unbelievably entitled. Why in the world do people feel like they need to still have sit down restaurants during a pandemic? Good fucking lord its infuriating. Such incredible entitlement.
Provided there are safety nets in place for those areas sure. Which to my knowledge aren’t exactly in place across the board in the States, whereas over here businesses and their employees have had protections in place.
Some bars I particularly like to frequent even delayed reopening despite getting the green light. I don’t think that happens if the franchise holders aren’t getting some help financially in the interim, they’d be desperate to open the second possible.
My local bar is really running a tight ship, they’re enforcing distancing. Went with my 7 year old to watch the football and got told off for moving table to be beside a heater as they hadn’t disinfected it from the last customers. Which I was happy to be told off for!
Other bars friends have gone to sound a mess and I’d avoid like the plague right now (pun vaguely intended).
Granted my local is a suburban bar that does food and functions, the kind of place families go to together to watch the football or whatever, it’s not a bar that caters to students or young professionals drinking and looking to hook up and the usual bar stuff you get in the city centre.
Agreed on entitlement, some people are ridiculous and my experiences in retail and having to work through the whole thing are sometimes frankly ridiculous.
After trying to get a customer to adhere to the one way system (WITH GIANT ARROWS ON THE GROUND) ‘You’re a little Hitler aren’t you, what have you had to do to inconvenience yourself apart from ordering people around?’ ‘Working around the public while my friends are all furloughed on 80% of their pay while they can stay at home, and not getting to see my son because his mother is worried I’ll pass the virus to him. Doesn’t really matter though can you please just adhere to our corona measures sir?’ ‘Or what?’ ‘It’s not a matter of or what sir, I’m just asking you to follow the one way system.’ ‘What if I don’t want to?’ ‘I don’t understand your reluctance to follow a one way system but if you refuse to comply security will escort you off the premises and you can be potentially barred from the store. I would prefer you just to follow the system.’ ‘Fucking tosser.’
Nobody wears a mask here apart from public transport where is mandator (people also immideately remove it on exiting public transport). Schools are also pretty much fully open. Both have been the status quo here for a long time and we havent seen any increase at all.
EPT
