US Politics Mega-thread - Page 985

On December 13 2018 06:36 ticklishmusic wrote:
ethics training i suppose. but probably need a hefty penalty and some sort of x strikes law where repeat offenders forfeit a massive amount of assets and earnings.

On December 13 2018 06:30 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
How exactly will rehabilitation work for white collar crime? There can only really be prevention and deterence.

On December 13 2018 07:00 RenSC2 wrote:
Punishment or rehabilitation needs to depend on the reason for the crime.

Some people have very little life skills and little opportunity working an honest job so they turn to drugs and crime. Those people need rehabilitation.

Other people have the life skills to be white collar workers, but don’t have the moral compass to not cheat the system. These people need punishment. They especially need harsh financial punishment to show that they can’t get ahead by cheating. I don’t think more than 5 years of jail time is really necessary though even in the worst white collar crime cases. Just take away the money.

Classes on ethics really won’t do much except strengthen some eye rolling muscles. You don’t have to be ethical to pass a class on ethics. You can always cheat your way through.

On December 13 2018 07:00 RenSC2 wrote:
Punishment or rehabilitation needs to depend on the reason for the crime.

Some people have very little life skills and little opportunity working an honest job so they turn to drugs and crime. Those people need rehabilitation.

Other people have the life skills to be white collar workers, but don’t have the moral compass to not cheat the system. These people need punishment. They especially need harsh financial punishment to show that they can’t get ahead by cheating. I don’t think more than 5 years of jail time is really necessary though even in the worst white collar crime cases. Just take away the money.

Classes on ethics really won’t do much except strengthen some eye rolling muscles. You don’t have to be ethical to pass a class on ethics. You can always cheat your way through.

On December 13 2018 07:07 Ryzel wrote:


Basically this. There is no replacement behavior to provide an alternative to white collar crime that will make just as much money. There’s no attempting to teach that they shouldn’t strive to make as much money as they can, because that’s capitalism. It’s not a skill deficit that is forcing them into this behavior, they know how to make money. They just choose to cheat the rules, and in these cases the rules need to be enforced, and harshly.

On December 13 2018 07:19 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
You can quote an abstract all you want, but the publication doesn't actually study whether treatments efforts are successful or not, nor examine whether more punitive measures wouldprovide a more effective benefit to society.

Interestingly I agree with the general gist of the abstract, if only it was applied to every other crime...

On December 13 2018 07:09 Excludos wrote:


This is fundamentally wrong and shows a clear lack of understanding of the subject theme and scientific results. I literally just linked you to a page from your own government claiming the exact opposite. There's not a lack of evidence for rehabilitation, even for white collar crimes, just a lack of will to implement it.

On December 13 2018 07:50 Ryzel wrote:


Considering your own self-admission of inexperience in this field, I find it fascinating how quickly you labeled my post as “fundamentally wrong”. By all means, enlighten us on why my points are incorrect (with some demonstration of critical thinking and good faith effort at understanding knowledge of subject material if you please, and not some lazy appeal to authority).

Otherwise I’ll have to dismiss this as a kneejerk reaction to my disagreement on your linked abstract.

On December 13 2018 07:00 Excludos wrote:


To copy the US' own national criminal justice reference service: "Treatment efforts aimed at rehabilitating white-collar offenders should recognize and confront their cognitive processes and personality characteristics."

"Studies have variously noted that these offenders use neutralization techniques to deny responsibility for their actions, minimize the seriousness of their criminal behavior, and use other distorted thought processes. They have also been found to be more aggressive and reckless than non-offenders. Although the social and psychological causes of their crimes are not clearly understood, therapists are still being asked to provide rehabilitation services. Programs should have a coherent philosophy, a knowledgeable staff, and an evaluation component. A comprehensive program should address the whole person and should include a clear contract outlining expectations and responsibilities; a restitution or community service agreement, if appropriate; and individual evaluation, diagnosis, and treatment planning and delivery."

Explains it far better than I ever could have.

Source: https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=132625

On December 13 2018 08:45 Kyadytim wrote:

The bolded is just a really fancy way of saying that people who commit white collar crime generally feel like they deserve what they gained from their crimes and don't have any feeling of having done anything wrong.

In the context of the back-and-forth abut this, the key here is that there's a bunch of distorted thought processes. These don't get fixed if the criminal doesn't actively want to fix them, and the very distorted thought processes that rehabilitation would be trying to fix get in the way of the criminal being an active participant in fixing them.

It doen't help that the link between white collar crimes and human suffering can be very abstract and indirect, or have a gap of several years between the crime and any consequences. With some white collar crime, such as stuff involving large banks failing to keep their investment and retail aspects properly separated, if things work out for the bank, there's never any actual consequences. Except, of course, that other competing banks which didn't break those laws profited less in comparison over the same time period.

My view on this is that given the nature of a lot of white collar criminals being fairly wealthy people from fairly wealthy family backgrounds, with all of the known associated skewing of thought processes, rehabilitating white collar criminals is functionally impossible and the best solution is moderate prison time and a financial penalty that is large enough to make crime literally not pay. None of the bullshit slap on the wrist fines. If someone embezzled a million dollars, they should have to pay a combination of fines and restitution that is a minimum of a million dollars.

On December 13 2018 08:45 Kyadytim wrote:

The bolded is just a really fancy way of saying that people who commit white collar crime generally feel like they deserve what they gained from their crimes and don't have any feeling of having done anything wrong.

In the context of the back-and-forth abut this, the key here is that there's a bunch of distorted thought processes. These don't get fixed if the criminal doesn't actively want to fix them, and the very distorted thought processes that rehabilitation would be trying to fix get in the way of the criminal being an active participant in fixing them.

It doen't help that the link between white collar crimes and human suffering can be very abstract and indirect, or have a gap of several years between the crime and any consequences. With some white collar crime, such as stuff involving large banks failing to keep their investment and retail aspects properly separated, if things work out for the bank, there's never any actual consequences. Except, of course, that other competing banks which didn't break those laws profited less in comparison over the same time period.

My view on this is that given the nature of a lot of white collar criminals being fairly wealthy people from fairly wealthy family backgrounds, with all of the known associated skewing of thought processes, rehabilitating white collar criminals is functionally impossible and the best solution is moderate prison time and a financial penalty that is large enough to make crime literally not pay. None of the bullshit slap on the wrist fines. If someone embezzled a million dollars, they should have to pay a combination of fines and restitution that is a minimum of a million dollars.