Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!
NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.
On December 13 2018 06:30 Dangermousecatdog wrote: How exactly will rehabilitation work for white collar crime? There can only really be prevention and deterence.
To copy the US' own national criminal justice reference service: "Treatment efforts aimed at rehabilitating white-collar offenders should recognize and confront their cognitive processes and personality characteristics."
"Studies have variously noted that these offenders use neutralization techniques to deny responsibility for their actions, minimize the seriousness of their criminal behavior, and use other distorted thought processes. They have also been found to be more aggressive and reckless than non-offenders. Although the social and psychological causes of their crimes are not clearly understood, therapists are still being asked to provide rehabilitation services. Programs should have a coherent philosophy, a knowledgeable staff, and an evaluation component. A comprehensive program should address the whole person and should include a clear contract outlining expectations and responsibilities; a restitution or community service agreement, if appropriate; and individual evaluation, diagnosis, and treatment planning and delivery."
The bolded is just a really fancy way of saying that people who commit white collar crime generally feel like they deserve what they gained from their crimes and don't have any feeling of having done anything wrong.
In the context of the back-and-forth abut this, the key here is that there's a bunch of distorted thought processes. These don't get fixed if the criminal doesn't actively want to fix them, and the very distorted thought processes that rehabilitation would be trying to fix get in the way of the criminal being an active participant in fixing them.
It doen't help that the link between white collar crimes and human suffering can be very abstract and indirect, or have a gap of several years between the crime and any consequences. With some white collar crime, such as stuff involving large banks failing to keep their investment and retail aspects properly separated, if things work out for the bank, there's never any actual consequences. Except, of course, that other competing banks which didn't break those laws profited less in comparison over the same time period.
My view on this is that given the nature of a lot of white collar criminals being fairly wealthy people from fairly wealthy family backgrounds, with all of the known associated skewing of thought processes, rehabilitating white collar criminals is functionally impossible and the best solution is moderate prison time and a financial penalty that is large enough to make crime literally not pay. None of the bullshit slap on the wrist fines. If someone embezzled a million dollars, they should have to pay a combination of fines and restitution that is a minimum of a million dollars.
It would have to be more than what they stole to be effective. If they felt like they could get away with it, and the worst that happens is they break even, there's still nothing preventing them from going for it. If they feel like they're genuinely worse off if they get caught, then there's a real risk for them. If you charge them a million five when they embezzle a million, that's not worth it anymore.
But hey, even charging them what they took is better than what we're doing now, which implicitly tells them to just go for it.
I was viewing the jail time as the extra punishment that made it a net negative.
On December 13 2018 06:30 Dangermousecatdog wrote: How exactly will rehabilitation work for white collar crime? There can only really be prevention and deterence.
To copy the US' own national criminal justice reference service: "Treatment efforts aimed at rehabilitating white-collar offenders should recognize and confront their cognitive processes and personality characteristics."
"Studies have variously noted that these offenders use neutralization techniques to deny responsibility for their actions, minimize the seriousness of their criminal behavior, and use other distorted thought processes. They have also been found to be more aggressive and reckless than non-offenders. Although the social and psychological causes of their crimes are not clearly understood, therapists are still being asked to provide rehabilitation services. Programs should have a coherent philosophy, a knowledgeable staff, and an evaluation component. A comprehensive program should address the whole person and should include a clear contract outlining expectations and responsibilities; a restitution or community service agreement, if appropriate; and individual evaluation, diagnosis, and treatment planning and delivery."
The bolded is just a really fancy way of saying that people who commit white collar crime generally feel like they deserve what they gained from their crimes and don't have any feeling of having done anything wrong.
In the context of the back-and-forth abut this, the key here is that there's a bunch of distorted thought processes. These don't get fixed if the criminal doesn't actively want to fix them, and the very distorted thought processes that rehabilitation would be trying to fix get in the way of the criminal being an active participant in fixing them.
It doen't help that the link between white collar crimes and human suffering can be very abstract and indirect, or have a gap of several years between the crime and any consequences. With some white collar crime, such as stuff involving large banks failing to keep their investment and retail aspects properly separated, if things work out for the bank, there's never any actual consequences. Except, of course, that other competing banks which didn't break those laws profited less in comparison over the same time period.
My view on this is that given the nature of a lot of white collar criminals being fairly wealthy people from fairly wealthy family backgrounds, with all of the known associated skewing of thought processes, rehabilitating white collar criminals is functionally impossible and the best solution is moderate prison time and a financial penalty that is large enough to make crime literally not pay. None of the bullshit slap on the wrist fines. If someone embezzled a million dollars, they should have to pay a combination of fines and restitution that is a minimum of a million dollars.
Maybe some white collar crimes aren’t strictly unethical and so it’s no surprise many don’t feel remorse.
I bet a lot of people in this very thread are guilty of time theft, a form of embezzlement from their employer.
Possibly. I bet a lot of people in this thread are victims of some form of wage theft, as well.
I mean, if your goal is to get someone who both knows how Washington works and is all about putting party before country, you couldn't really do better than Newt. Tho I am curious how their egos would mesh.
On December 13 2018 23:18 On_Slaught wrote: I mean, if your goal is to get someone who both knows how Washington works and is all about putting party before country, you couldn't really do better than Newt. Tho I am curious how their egos would mesh.
The problem is that Trump doesn't want someone who puts party before country.
He wants someone who puts Trump before party before country.
15k migrant children in custody and there is nothing the US is doing to solve the problem except to continue making it worse.
The number of immigrant children being held in government custody has reached almost 15,000, putting a network of federally contracted shelters across the country near capacity.
The national network of more than 100 shelters are 92 percent full, according to the Department of Health and Human Services. The situation is forcing the government to consider a range of options. Those could include releasing children more quickly to sponsors in the United States or expanding the already crowded shelter network.
Most of migrant children are teenaged boys from Central America who travel to the border alone. Many are escaping poverty or gangs, and they plan to ask for asylum, and ultimately find work or go to school in the U.S.
As with ACA, to quickly put into place something without much thought, will only increase the issues surrounding the cause. There are options, but they are moving too slow and I think the longer these types of stories are put out there, the more distaste the US will encounter.
On December 13 2018 23:23 farvacola wrote: I don’t think that would work at all, if Newt took the job, he’d be out in a matter of days or weeks.
You reckon? Why? Trump and Newt seem to get along well.
They get along well only because they are at arms length. In closer settings, their egos would clash almost immediately and neither has shown any ability to contain them.
Newt to me sounds like another attempt by the GOP to attempt to control Trump. Try to rein in the excess a bit.
But Trump will Trump so that's unlikely to work.
It looks like Newt is denying being considered but his reason for visiting the WH was “No, I was actually just wandering around looking at decorations,” (aka utter BS) there might be truth to it. Kinda shocking he didn't think of a remotely believable lie before coming onto Fox. He must have known it was going to come at some point.
1. Butina said she acted "under direction of" a Russian official whom CNN has identified as Alexander Torshin.
2. The Spanish dude who got wire tapped talking to Torshin was also tapped talking to Jr
3. If the FBI had evidence that Butina was acting at the direction and control of the Russian government (and her plea reveals they did), it makes her an agent of a foreign power & a legit target for a FISA...if there was one, anyone talking to her would have been captured on it.
4. Met with Jr at a NRA convention weeks before the tower meeting
5. Strangely asked Trump questions about Russian sanctions, posing as a media person here:
Whatever she is giving up is likely quite juicy. Especially since it sounds like the intelligence community had been monitoring her for a while. It wouldn't surprise me if it is all the Butina-related evidence that keeps making people stop questioning the special counsel when they get briefed.
On December 14 2018 09:12 On_Slaught wrote: Wasn't there already a recording of him discussing it that someone released a while back? Maybe I'm confusing my recordings.
Yeah but we had more than a few people saying Trump was saying NOT to do that lmao...
A 7 year old girl died in custody of the US border patrol, of dehydration and shock as far as is known. 8 hours after being taken in, she started having seizures after reportedly not having eaten/water for several days - and when emergency responders arrived, her body temperature was at 106 degrees.
Now here's the statement that rubs me wrong.
“Border Patrol agents took every possible step to save the child’s life under the most trying of circumstances,” Meehan said. “As fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, we empathize with the loss of any child.”
Yeah. That's a huge load of bullshit. If a kid hadn't had anything to drink or eat for several days, you see that. That kid wasn't A-okay when it was taken in, if it started having seizures 8 hours later with 41 degrees fever. Like.. Medical examination, maybe? Basic nutrition, water? Yeah, sure, after it started dying, they probably tried what they could. Most likely due to fear of the backlash that would otherwise happen. These people also didn't try to bamboozle these agents, they turned themselves in according to CBPs own records.
But the most worrying part to me (not just in the USA btw, it's happening in germany now too) is that already happened on the 6th, and only just now it came out.
I mean, i absolutely understand that the US wants to protect it's borders. But the dehumanisation of migrants/asylumseekers and the widely positive response to said thing makes it hard to assume a stance of "this was a freak accident" rather than "this was ought to happen".
if she hadn't had anything to eat for drink for "several days" it sounds like the father is in deep. didnt she tell her dad that she was thirsty? how does a parent let that happen? I think there's more here than BP incompetence.
On December 14 2018 16:10 Introvert wrote: if she hadn't had anything to eat for drink for "several days" it sounds like the father is in deep. didnt she tell her dad that she was thirsty? how does a parent let that happen? I think there's more here than BP incompetence.
I'd hazard a guess that if the child is in that bad shape, parents aren't much better. It's possible that parents weren't in a mental position to provide that info, or just simply trusted the BP to provide help. Having anyone, kid or adult die from negligence in custody is completely avoidable in this case.
On December 14 2018 16:10 Introvert wrote: if she hadn't had anything to eat for drink for "several days" it sounds like the father is in deep. didnt she tell her dad that she was thirsty? how does a parent let that happen? I think there's more here than BP incompetence.
Who cares what interaction went on between her and her father when she was in custody for 8 hours before the incident? This is a clear and cut case of negligence.
EPT
