EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 951
| Forum Index > General Forum |
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
|
Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
| ||
|
Nebuchad
Switzerland12320 Posts
On November 22 2018 20:37 Neneu wrote: It also showed that US can not be trusted with longterm deals. It is truly an astonishing drop in foreign soft and hard power for US when supporting the US president is the same as political suicide in most western democracies I think the world is slightly kidding itself by talking about the US in isolation when it comes to the Trump phenomenon. What Trump represents is a worldwide trend, and we're mocking the US for something that we are also largely experiencing. Our guys may be a little more articulate and a little less clownish, but they're here to stay too. | ||
|
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
On November 23 2018 20:12 Nebuchad wrote: I think the world is slightly kidding itself by talking about the US in isolation when it comes to the Trump phenomenon. What Trump represents is a worldwide trend, and we're mocking the US for something that we are also largely experiencing. Our guys may be a little more articulate and a little less clownish, but they're here to stay too. Yes, it easy to forget how nervous everyone was about Le Pen when looking at europe as the stable side. One of the reasons I'm a little overinterested in the US politics is because in my country we tend to copy American trends very rigorously and our own form of Trumpism is not something I'm looking forward to. Our FVD party already copies the anti-media, everyone is against us, it's the fault of 'the elites' cult leader phenomena. And they are rising in the polls. Luckily we are not burdened with a two party system. | ||
|
Velr
Switzerland10807 Posts
Trump is a babbling baffoon with twitterities. His policies are just a part of what the makes the US image tank, a big part, but far from the only reason. | ||
|
iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On November 23 2018 20:12 Nebuchad wrote: I think the world is slightly kidding itself by talking about the US in isolation when it comes to the Trump phenomenon. What Trump represents is a worldwide trend, and we're mocking the US for something that we are also largely experiencing. Our guys may be a little more articulate and a little less clownish, but they're here to stay too. He really doesn't. I understand the narrative well, I've heard it from right wingers before, the idea that there's going to be a massive sweep of right wing government and all the liberals will be swept away. Except in most cases they've been annihilated at the polls when it came to actual voting time. And that's ignoring the fact that Trump is by far the worst when it comes to electability. The others can at least handle a basic English sentence. These parties are mostly - with some exceptions - politically relevant, but by no means close to being the dominant political voice in their countries, and there's a massive difference between being relevant and completely taking over one of the two main political parties and being officially considered one of the greatest Presidents of all time by a ton of people. | ||
|
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
| ||
|
Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On November 24 2018 00:35 JimmiC wrote: Is it not scary then what someone more savvy could do? Often I think Drumpf is underestimated, he sure has an ability to get his followers to pledge loyalty in a way most politicians can't. But if someone had that Drumpf ability and a better understanding of the system I really think he/she could abuse it in a dangerous way depending on his/her motives. His name is Putin... the difference is the absence of system checks and balances dont exist where he runs the show so its easier to suppress dissension and there isnt a gong show around the things he does like there are with Drumpf.. but for a relatively brutal dictator, for the most part he is quite popular. So you already have your scary example | ||
|
Velr
Switzerland10807 Posts
| ||
|
Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On November 24 2018 02:31 Velr wrote: That comparison doesn't hold up at all. Russia was barely ever a democracy and during the time it was it just lost tons of territory and was in a huge crysis. I literally just afforded what you said is the main difference in my comment. That someone like the people he is alluding to exists, but in robust democracies they can be as smart and manipulative as they want, the system of checks and balances will prevent them getting away with it to a point of upending the democratic systems completely, even if it cant stop them from coming into power. The might turn into shitty democracies, but that scarier example he is worried about isnt particularly scary because you already have a more aggressive version of it. + Show Spoiler + I suppose I shoudve said 'scary' to hightlight it but the sarcasm is mean to be very mild.. | ||
|
Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
| ||
|
Biff The Understudy
France7917 Posts
On November 24 2018 03:03 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I'm not sure that if for instance if Le Pen did take the presidency, would France standing and diplomatic power would be diminished in other western democracies. The level of idiocy and public comments in support of dictators and attacks on media by trump is unprecedented and of a vaster scale than any of us has seen in any other country. Le Pen is probably more dangerous than Trump. She is not some kind proto fascist populist bullshitter: the root of the FN are in actual, second world war, pro nazi fascism, and despite her sanitanization effort, that’s where her party stands and what her DNA really is made of. France also has a system that is disproportionally favouring the executive branch, while the judicial branch is actually comparatively fairly weak. I think it is potentially very vulnerable to this kind of people.. | ||
|
iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On November 24 2018 00:35 JimmiC wrote: Is it not scary then what someone more savvy could do? Often I think Trump is underestimated, he sure has an ability to get his followers to pledge loyalty in a way most politicians can't. But if someone had that Trump ability and a better understanding of the system I really think he/she could abuse it in a dangerous way depending on his/her motives. Absolutely. I've been saying for a while that I think the US is going to turn fascist inside a century. The warning signs are all there, and there's zero evidence that the guys on the right - the ones who can actually do something about them - either recognise or respect them. The voters on the right have also shown that they're willing to vote in droves for that stuff. So we'll see what happens. At this point it seems such an inevitability that I don't really care anymore. But it's how nations learn. The reason those parties do only fair to middling at the polls in EU countries is we all know the signs and there's a lot of us who just shut them down on the spot. Hopefully America will emerge from its own fascist years with a bit of shame and humility, and be a better nation for it overall. It was alarming at first, but the actual result's more a sort of stubbing your toe yelp than a cancer diagnosis. | ||
|
farvacola
United States18838 Posts
| ||
|
iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On November 24 2018 21:56 farvacola wrote: Meh, those fears are overblown, particularly because of the key fact that there is literally nothing fearful white people can do about the coming demographic switchover. If we're drawing historical comparisons with other nations that went full blown fascist at one point or another, there was nothing remotely comparable. Further, the US has already shown itself to trend towards civil war-esque infighting than unified fascist movements, and I'd be far more concerned about something resembling a cold civil war (which is already being fought imo) than a fascist takeover. There's also that possibility. Either way I don't think it'll happen inside our lifetimes. Also, the demographic change doesn't necessarily mean anything provided they vote GOP. | ||
|
Gahlo
United States35162 Posts
On November 24 2018 23:07 iamthedave wrote: There's also that possibility. Either way I don't think it'll happen inside our lifetimes. Also, the demographic change doesn't necessarily mean anything provided they vote GOP. The conundrum there is that the GOP is constantly making it more and more difficult for the growing demographics to vote - leading to those that do to generally not vote in their favor. So, assuming behaviors stay constant, it will come down to whether the GOP efforts to block votes is able to offset gains from the shifting demographics. | ||
|
PhoenixVoid
Canada32743 Posts
"...observational evidence does not support any credible natural explanations for this amount of warming; instead, the evidence consistently points to human activities, especially emissions of greenhouse or heat-trapping gases, as the dominant cause." Considering this is was written with NASA, NOAA, and the Department of Defense, and ten other science agencies, it's comprehensive and decisive as it gets. Funny how it was released like a day after Trump went on another spiel about record-breaking cold, so therefore no climate change. Though knowing at how odds he can be with his government, there's virtually no chance he pays heed to this. | ||
|
Biff The Understudy
France7917 Posts
On November 24 2018 23:08 Gahlo wrote: The conundrum there is that the GOP is constantly making it more and more difficult for the growing demographics to vote - leading to those that do to generally not vote in their favor. So, assuming behaviors stay constant, it will come down to whether the GOP efforts to block votes is able to offset gains from the shifting demographics. Well as we start to witness, supressing voters and gerrymandering only works for as long as you are in power. You lose one election and it is all undone by the opposition. And it looks like the GOP is going to lose a lot in the years coming. The GOP is fighting a losing battle, and the violence, the irrationality and the resentment it voices shows it best. Call me crazy but I am generally optimistic. I think Trump is the worst of that far right wave we will see in our lifetime in the US. | ||
|
m4ini
4215 Posts
Considering this is was written with NASA, NOAA, and the Department of Defense, and ten other science agencies, it's comprehensive and decisive as it gets. Funny how it was released like a day after Trump went on another spiel about record-breaking cold, so therefore no climate change. Though knowing at how odds he can be with his government, there's virtually no chance he pays heed to this. You could literally prove it, and trumpets still wouldn't believe it because scientists are just globalists in disguise and why are they funded anyway. Remember. We went from "there's no climate change" to "there's no manmade climate change", to "climate change is a chinese hoax" to "it's cold therefore no climate change". This report, as sad as it is, is worth literally nothing. On one side you have people that agree with science and use common sense (and understand what "laws of thermodynamics" mean), this report will just confirm what we already knew. On the other you have republicans. The ones that don't think that the earth is 6000 years old go through the usual denials as pointed out, because taking care of the environment and keeping lobbies happy is mutually exclusive. | ||
|
iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On November 25 2018 02:12 Biff The Understudy wrote: Well as we start to witness, supressing voters and gerrymandering only works for as long as you are in power. You lose one election and it is all undone by the opposition. And it looks like the GOP is going to lose a lot in the years coming. The GOP is fighting a losing battle, and the violence, the irrationality and the resentment it voices shows it best. Call me crazy but I am generally optimistic. I think Trump is the worst of that far right wave we will see in our lifetime in the US. I don't know, I see nothing positive to hang my hat on. If I lived in the US I'd be genuinely fearful. 2 years of a Trump Presidency led to a really tepid Democrat response in the mid-terms, and a vibrant Republican turnout. Trump isn't just there, he's enthusiastically been embraced by the American right. That isn't the signs of a one-off event, that's the sign of someone people will want to emulate. It isn't just a cult of personality, Trump's politics are popular. And they're not the turn off they should be. Remember, Trump did well with educated white voters. Smart people looked at him and thought 'yep, that's my President'. The Democrats are doing a shitty job of galvanising the base and trying to stick to an old formula when really Bernie Sanders demostrated that it's time for a change. Voters on the left aren't going to vote for not-Trump, they'll stay home unless they see something they want to vote for. Where is that? | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28706 Posts
Compare to the presidential election, where it was 65,844,610 for Hillary and 62,979,636 for Trump, we can see that the difference has moved from 2,864,974 to 8,930,492. The midterm elections tend to favor a) the opposition and b) the republican party (democrats tend to lose big when they have the presidents, republicans tend to lose small), but this was a big loss - the biggest loss for republicans since 1974, an election happening a couple months after Nixon resigned after watergate. In terms of popular vote numbers, it's the biggest midterm election victory through history. (source) The initial reports seemed less positive for democrats, but now, it basically looks like the blue wave did happen. Voters did vote for non-trump. The fact is that Trump is great at galvanizing both parties. Republican turnout was higher than normal, but democrat turnout was much higher than normal. 2014 saw 83 million people voting - 2018 saw 110 million people. I'm not able to find the popular vote numbers for earlier elections, but democrats increased their numbers significantly more than republicans did, despite having inspirational president Obama in 2014, and essentially being leader-less in 2014, united only in their opposition to Trump. And this despite exit polls showing that people think the economy is going well. I don't want to predict how the 2020 presidential election is going to end up cuz I have no idea how the electoral college map works out. But I am confident the popular vote victory will be significantly higher than it was in 2016. | ||
| ||
