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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
You should repeat that a few times as well maybe that becomes true.
I understand you, I just think you are a bad person who argues for bad people. I hope that is understandable enough.
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United States43231 Posts
You're literally not understanding me though. You keep saying I'm arguing against Gazans having schools. I'm not arguing against building schools, I'm describing the impact of hopelessness on the stakeholders and actors involved. I want schools, but I don't see how we motivate anyone to build one during the foreverwar. I'm describing a situation that I hate.
Again, you haven't understood a damn word I said.
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E.J. Antoni, child rapist Donald Trump's candidate to lead the Bureau of Labor Statistics, suggested during an interview with FOX Business to suspend the agency's monthly jobs report.
"If we stop testing right now, we’d have very few cases, if any" but for unemployment.
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Sure, you are just misunderstood, how could I read your screeching about Hezbolah and Gazans who participated in October 7th and Israel's lack of invasions and them "buying peace with land" and understand that as anything other then you expressing your hate for the situation.
And it's fun to see you back in your 1 or two liner mode as soon as you get called out for flat out lying and providing cover for genocidal moves, exactly what someone who is misunderstood would do.
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United States43231 Posts
On August 13 2025 01:20 Jankisa wrote:
Sure, you are just misunderstood, how could I read your screeching about Hezbolah and Gazans who participated in October 7th and Israel's lack of invasions and them "buying peace with land" and understand that as anything other then you expressing your hate for the situation.
And it's fun to see you back in your 1 or two liner mode as soon as you get called out for flat out lying and providing cover for genocidal moves, exactly what someone who is misunderstood would do.
Why would I write another long post when you didn't read the last one. I've already written the long post addressing your nonsense, if you want to read a longer rebuttal then just go read it.
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I very obviously read it, you just can't comprehend that someone is not impressed by it.
You write as if your country is not providing the bombs that are killing children or the organization that is corralling and shooting at them.
You also expect that you can mention EU organization and how they shouldn't build schools and then expect me, as an EU citizen to agree with that when it's obviously a dumb thing to say.
This is why I asked you questions and quoted parts, which you ignored.
My questions aren't the type of questions that require long posts, they are simple and straight forward. I'll re-itterate them just in case:
1. When was the last time that Israel "traded land for peace"
2. Why were you lying when you said that Israel hasn't invaded Gaza in 18 years when it obviously did, as evidenced by the graph I posted
Someone who is a neutral observer who lost hope because both sides are being unreasonable does not feel the need to write things like this, because writing things like this clearly shows a strong bias for one side, which you are absolutely refusing to admit.
On October 6th I had a similar bias as you did. Since November of 2023 I can proudly say that I'm biased the other way because Israel is acting genocidaly.
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United States43231 Posts
On August 13 2025 01:48 Jankisa wrote:
You also expect that you can mention EU organization and how they shouldn't build schools
I suggest you read it again and actually read the words rather than the kind of thing you imagine I might have said.
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On August 13 2025 00:16 Legan wrote:
The pace of progress is insufferably slow, and many times intentionally stalled in an effort not to make the opposition angry. At the same time, massive step-backs can happen quite frequently. Just look at the many controversial rulings by the Supreme Court in the past decade. These step-backs are accompanied by a severe lack of consequences. For example, health insurance denials are causing more and more suffering and victims by the day, but there is no hope of it being addressed. At best, one can hope that after the next elections, there will be a Democratic majority that will push for some minimal compromise. Simultaneously, the people benefiting from the suffering of others are not facing any consequences now or in the future. It is no surprise that people do not trust the system anymore.
The obvious lesson is that you should aim for immediate and maximal change regardless of how moral, ethical or legal your methods are, as there will not be sufficient consequences afterwards if you win big enough. If you look at the Project 2025, you can see one attempt at this kind of change and its current implementation attempt. It will take decades to undo your changes. This is, of course, very destructive to society when everyone tries to implement their own agenda one after another. However, at the same time, it is clear that incremental changes will let many suffer for a long time.
Looking back into history, plenty of things have required much more direct actions to achieve bigger changes. In many places, Women's suffrage, the 8-hour workday, and desegregation all required more than small incremental changes, and they were achieved with much more direct action than voting or writing letters.
The desire for change manifests itself in the more radical opinions on the internet. If these same people had more local grassroots organisations, then the frustration would be funnelled into them. These organisations would probably be much more effective in implementing the change. Heritage Foundation and Project 2025 prove how effective decades-long dedicated movement-building can be, and they do not even need to be popular or do big marches or general strikes for their agenda.
You get it.
Noone can sell me on incrementalism or electoralism as I see those systems fail aggressively in the face of Fascists and Republicans.
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On August 12 2025 12:42 BlackJack wrote:
Colin Kaepernick not being able to get work in the NFL is kind of a niche issue. I think 3 posts criticizing it is sufficient.
He couldn't paly in the NFL, in large part because he was not good. I'm not sure why this one gets lost in the weeds so much. Janet Jackson is probably a better example of someone being canceled by the right, when it was JT who exposed her breast and he suffered basically zero consequence.
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What does being against electoralism mean? Grassroots efforts and direct action don't accomplish much if we're consistently losing elections, so any realistic strategy to improve the world has to involve winning elections. And I don't know any politically informed Democrat or leftist that thinks voting alone is sufficient, so if electoralism means ignoring everything except voting, that's a strawman.
If it means just praying for a Blanquist overthrow of the government, well, good luck with that. That's pretty much the secular version of ignoring the homeless because the Rapture will come soon.
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On August 13 2025 02:10 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2025 00:16 Legan wrote:
The pace of progress is insufferably slow, and many times intentionally stalled in an effort not to make the opposition angry. At the same time, massive step-backs can happen quite frequently. Just look at the many controversial rulings by the Supreme Court in the past decade. These step-backs are accompanied by a severe lack of consequences. For example, health insurance denials are causing more and more suffering and victims by the day, but there is no hope of it being addressed. At best, one can hope that after the next elections, there will be a Democratic majority that will push for some minimal compromise. Simultaneously, the people benefiting from the suffering of others are not facing any consequences now or in the future. It is no surprise that people do not trust the system anymore.
The obvious lesson is that you should aim for immediate and maximal change regardless of how moral, ethical or legal your methods are, as there will not be sufficient consequences afterwards if you win big enough. If you look at the Project 2025, you can see one attempt at this kind of change and its current implementation attempt. It will take decades to undo your changes. This is, of course, very destructive to society when everyone tries to implement their own agenda one after another. However, at the same time, it is clear that incremental changes will let many suffer for a long time.
Looking back into history, plenty of things have required much more direct actions to achieve bigger changes. In many places, Women's suffrage, the 8-hour workday, and desegregation all required more than small incremental changes, and they were achieved with much more direct action than voting or writing letters.
The desire for change manifests itself in the more radical opinions on the internet. If these same people had more local grassroots organisations, then the frustration would be funnelled into them. These organisations would probably be much more effective in implementing the change. Heritage Foundation and Project 2025 prove how effective decades-long dedicated movement-building can be, and they do not even need to be popular or do big marches or general strikes for their agenda. You get it. Noone can sell me on incrementalism or electoralism as I see those systems fail aggressively in the face of Fascists and Republicans.
Yeah, Legan is providing the sort of analysis I expect from basically anyone not making stockholm syndromesque rationalizations for watching Dems lose to and enable fascists.
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United States43231 Posts
On August 13 2025 01:48 Jankisa wrote:
1. When was the last time that Israel "traded land for peace"
2. Why were you lying when you said that Israel hasn't invaded Gaza in 18 years when it obviously did, as evidenced by the graph I posted
1. The last time they did it was the last time they were attacked with a state actor who was interested in peace talks in exchange for the recovery of land lost in the conflict. They can't trade land for peace with a party not interested in peace (Hamas) or with whom they have no land (Iran) for reasons that should be obvious, even to the likes of you. They've done it at the most recent opportunity they've had.
2. That graph very much doesn't show what you think it does. You're a very confused person and I hope things get better for you.
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On August 13 2025 02:39 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2025 02:10 Zambrah wrote:On August 13 2025 00:16 Legan wrote:
The pace of progress is insufferably slow, and many times intentionally stalled in an effort not to make the opposition angry. At the same time, massive step-backs can happen quite frequently. Just look at the many controversial rulings by the Supreme Court in the past decade. These step-backs are accompanied by a severe lack of consequences. For example, health insurance denials are causing more and more suffering and victims by the day, but there is no hope of it being addressed. At best, one can hope that after the next elections, there will be a Democratic majority that will push for some minimal compromise. Simultaneously, the people benefiting from the suffering of others are not facing any consequences now or in the future. It is no surprise that people do not trust the system anymore.
The obvious lesson is that you should aim for immediate and maximal change regardless of how moral, ethical or legal your methods are, as there will not be sufficient consequences afterwards if you win big enough. If you look at the Project 2025, you can see one attempt at this kind of change and its current implementation attempt. It will take decades to undo your changes. This is, of course, very destructive to society when everyone tries to implement their own agenda one after another. However, at the same time, it is clear that incremental changes will let many suffer for a long time.
Looking back into history, plenty of things have required much more direct actions to achieve bigger changes. In many places, Women's suffrage, the 8-hour workday, and desegregation all required more than small incremental changes, and they were achieved with much more direct action than voting or writing letters.
The desire for change manifests itself in the more radical opinions on the internet. If these same people had more local grassroots organisations, then the frustration would be funnelled into them. These organisations would probably be much more effective in implementing the change. Heritage Foundation and Project 2025 prove how effective decades-long dedicated movement-building can be, and they do not even need to be popular or do big marches or general strikes for their agenda. You get it. Noone can sell me on incrementalism or electoralism as I see those systems fail aggressively in the face of Fascists and Republicans. Yeah, Legan is providing the sort of analysis I expect from basically anyone not making stockholm syndromesque rationalizations for watching Dems lose to and enable fascists.
Maybe you should try that instead of throwing out condescending one liners. might make actual discussion happen. If you were willing to be 4 personalities surely you try providing actual socialist analysis instead of just bad dems for a while?
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On August 13 2025 01:20 Jankisa wrote:
Sure, you are just misunderstood, how could I read your screeching about Hezbolah and Gazans who participated in October 7th and Israel's lack of invasions and them "buying peace with land" and understand that as anything other then you expressing your hate for the situation.
And it's fun to see you back in your 1 or two liner mode as soon as you get called out for flat out lying and providing cover for genocidal moves, exactly what someone who is misunderstood would do.
I think if you reread his post you will see that he says there tends to be two perspectives and the one you are saying he has, he explicitly says he does not and that he's not sure anyone on the threads has it.
It often feels like you read peoples posts as if they are the person you really want to argue with rather than what that person is actually saying. I'm sure there is plenty of stuff you actually disagree with Kwark about but if you don't take the time to understand his perspective you are just going to end up talking past him and hi coming back with snide remarks, instead of am interesting conversation that you guys could have and we could read.
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On August 13 2025 02:39 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2025 02:10 Zambrah wrote:On August 13 2025 00:16 Legan wrote:
The pace of progress is insufferably slow, and many times intentionally stalled in an effort not to make the opposition angry. At the same time, massive step-backs can happen quite frequently. Just look at the many controversial rulings by the Supreme Court in the past decade. These step-backs are accompanied by a severe lack of consequences. For example, health insurance denials are causing more and more suffering and victims by the day, but there is no hope of it being addressed. At best, one can hope that after the next elections, there will be a Democratic majority that will push for some minimal compromise. Simultaneously, the people benefiting from the suffering of others are not facing any consequences now or in the future. It is no surprise that people do not trust the system anymore.
The obvious lesson is that you should aim for immediate and maximal change regardless of how moral, ethical or legal your methods are, as there will not be sufficient consequences afterwards if you win big enough. If you look at the Project 2025, you can see one attempt at this kind of change and its current implementation attempt. It will take decades to undo your changes. This is, of course, very destructive to society when everyone tries to implement their own agenda one after another. However, at the same time, it is clear that incremental changes will let many suffer for a long time.
Looking back into history, plenty of things have required much more direct actions to achieve bigger changes. In many places, Women's suffrage, the 8-hour workday, and desegregation all required more than small incremental changes, and they were achieved with much more direct action than voting or writing letters.
The desire for change manifests itself in the more radical opinions on the internet. If these same people had more local grassroots organisations, then the frustration would be funnelled into them. These organisations would probably be much more effective in implementing the change. Heritage Foundation and Project 2025 prove how effective decades-long dedicated movement-building can be, and they do not even need to be popular or do big marches or general strikes for their agenda. You get it. Noone can sell me on incrementalism or electoralism as I see those systems fail aggressively in the face of Fascists and Republicans. Yeah, Legan is providing the sort of analysis I expect from basically anyone not making stockholm syndromesque rationalizations for watching Dems lose to and enable fascists.
The only thing Id add is that the left half of the political spectrum is too fractured and stubborn to pull off a Project 2025. Ideological leftists cant agree to work with each other for shit, even someone like me, who is willing to compromise on lots of things if it means a better society, just doesnt feel like they have meaningful political allies.
The leftists who are willing to accept more radical action are also typically the leftists who have strong ideological beliefs and dont seem to work well with other leftists of different ideological bents.
The rest on the left half of the US political spectrum just seem like center-lefties who are content to watch the US drown in the fascist tide while telling themselves that all they need to do is vote and participate in all of the very conventional activities that have maintained democracy up til now. Maybe some light protesting here and there, but thats as far as they believe they should go/is necessary.
I just dont really know at this point, I don't see a particularly positive path forward on the left, just praying that the right implodes or become such a horrible global threat that some other world power comes in and puts them down.
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On August 13 2025 03:39 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2025 02:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 13 2025 02:10 Zambrah wrote:On August 13 2025 00:16 Legan wrote:
The pace of progress is insufferably slow, and many times intentionally stalled in an effort not to make the opposition angry. At the same time, massive step-backs can happen quite frequently. Just look at the many controversial rulings by the Supreme Court in the past decade. These step-backs are accompanied by a severe lack of consequences. For example, health insurance denials are causing more and more suffering and victims by the day, but there is no hope of it being addressed. At best, one can hope that after the next elections, there will be a Democratic majority that will push for some minimal compromise. Simultaneously, the people benefiting from the suffering of others are not facing any consequences now or in the future. It is no surprise that people do not trust the system anymore.
The obvious lesson is that you should aim for immediate and maximal change regardless of how moral, ethical or legal your methods are, as there will not be sufficient consequences afterwards if you win big enough. If you look at the Project 2025, you can see one attempt at this kind of change and its current implementation attempt. It will take decades to undo your changes. This is, of course, very destructive to society when everyone tries to implement their own agenda one after another. However, at the same time, it is clear that incremental changes will let many suffer for a long time.
Looking back into history, plenty of things have required much more direct actions to achieve bigger changes. In many places, Women's suffrage, the 8-hour workday, and desegregation all required more than small incremental changes, and they were achieved with much more direct action than voting or writing letters.
The desire for change manifests itself in the more radical opinions on the internet. If these same people had more local grassroots organisations, then the frustration would be funnelled into them. These organisations would probably be much more effective in implementing the change. Heritage Foundation and Project 2025 prove how effective decades-long dedicated movement-building can be, and they do not even need to be popular or do big marches or general strikes for their agenda. You get it. Noone can sell me on incrementalism or electoralism as I see those systems fail aggressively in the face of Fascists and Republicans. Yeah, Legan is providing the sort of analysis I expect from basically anyone not making stockholm syndromesque rationalizations for watching Dems lose to and enable fascists. The only thing Id add is that the left half of the political spectrum is too fractured and stubborn to pull off a Project 2025. Ideological leftists cant agree to work with each other for shit, even someone like me, who is willing to compromise on lots of things if it means a better society, just doesnt feel like they have meaningful political allies. The leftists who are willing to accept more radical action are also typically the leftists who have strong ideological beliefs and dont seem to work well with other leftists of different ideological bents. The rest on the left half of the US political spectrum just seem like center-lefties who are content to watch the US drown in the fascist tide while telling themselves that all they need to do is vote and participate in all of the very conventional activities that have maintained democracy up til now. Maybe some light protesting here and there, but thats as far as they believe they should go/is necessary. I just dont really know at this point, I don't see a particularly positive path forward on the left, just praying that the right implodes or become such a horrible global threat that some other world power comes in and puts them down.
The left is nuanced and less fanatical. It doesn't work well for hostile takeovers. Especially in a 2 party system.
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On August 13 2025 02:40 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2025 01:48 Jankisa wrote:
1. When was the last time that Israel "traded land for peace"
2. Why were you lying when you said that Israel hasn't invaded Gaza in 18 years when it obviously did, as evidenced by the graph I posted 1. The last time they did it was the last time they were attacked with a state actor who was interested in peace talks in exchange for the recovery of land lost in the conflict. They can't trade land for peace with a party not interested in peace (Hamas) or with whom they have no land (Iran) for reasons that should be obvious, even to the likes of you. They've done it at the most recent opportunity they've had. 2. That graph very much doesn't show what you think it does. You're a very confused person and I hope things get better for you.
Instead of writing all that you could have just said "The last time was in 1967". Hardly seems relevant to what is happening in Gaza but you brought it up. Now, you pointed out another way how it's not relevant in a different way.
Did Israel invade Gaza in the 18 years period that you said they didn't?
Does the graph I posted absolutely and directly correlate to those incursions causing deaths? If it does, how does it make sense for you to say that graph "doesn't show what I think it does"?
Maybe we played different video games but tanking shoots usually doesn't mean the side that tanks them also causes 10 x casualty numbers when "not invading".
You can, as you often do go back to snark when caught lying, but that doesn't change the fact that you lied.
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Kwark: *describes the futility of building a school in Gaza*
Jankisa: OMG you don't want Gazans to have schools. You're a monster that doesn't care about Gazan children!!
Basically sums it up the level of discourse here. It doesn't matter if Hamas will use the hypothetical school as a military outpost or if Israel will turn it into rubble. It doesn't matter if no children will be taught anything there. We'll still conclude that it's a school because they painted "SCHOOL" in big letter on the front of the thing.
It's the typical left-wing virtue signaling run amok. I want a school for Gazan children and Kwark doesn't. Everybody, look how much of a better person I am than Kwark. It doesn't even matter that Kwark didn't say that he doesn't want schools for Gazans or he doesn't want Gazans to have a chance at education. We'll just make up that part for him by being particularly bad at reading. We'll make him the villain that we white-knight for Gaza against either way.
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On August 13 2025 03:33 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2025 01:20 Jankisa wrote:
Sure, you are just misunderstood, how could I read your screeching about Hezbolah and Gazans who participated in October 7th and Israel's lack of invasions and them "buying peace with land" and understand that as anything other then you expressing your hate for the situation.
And it's fun to see you back in your 1 or two liner mode as soon as you get called out for flat out lying and providing cover for genocidal moves, exactly what someone who is misunderstood would do. I think if you reread his post you will see that he says there tends to be two perspectives and the one you are saying he has, he explicitly says he does not and that he's not sure anyone on the threads has it. It often feels like you read peoples posts as if they are the person you really want to argue with rather than what that person is actually saying. I'm sure there is plenty of stuff you actually disagree with Kwark about but if you don't take the time to understand his perspective you are just going to end up talking past him and hi coming back with snide remarks, instead of am interesting conversation that you guys could have and we could read.
I don't really want to argue with KwarK because I think he's dishonest and argues in bad faith. I brought him up in the context of describing another person's posting style who I also think argues in bad faith.
I understand the perspective he wants to present and the way he wants to present himself, I just think that he's not being honest about what he does and how he carries himself. I had the same problem with you.
For people who seem to have a big problem with your perceived "me not reading posts" you don't seem to be reading mine, so, let me just re-quote what I wrote and what got this exchange initiated:
On August 12 2025 19:16 Jankisa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2025 17:19 BlackJack wrote:On August 12 2025 16:52 Jankisa wrote:On August 12 2025 16:10 Acrofales wrote:On August 12 2025 15:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 12 2025 14:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 12 2025 08:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 12 2025 06:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:We all knew this was coming, especially after women lost their rights. Gay marriage might be next. Supreme Court formally asked to overturn landmark same-sex marriage ruling
Ten years after the Supreme Court extended marriage rights to same-sex couples nationwide, the justices this fall will consider for the first time whether to take up a case that explicitly asks them to overturn that decision.
Kim Davis, the former Kentucky county clerk who was jailed for six days in 2015 after refusing to issue marriage licenses to a gay couple on religious grounds, is appealing a $100,000 jury verdict for emotional damages plus $260,000 for attorneys fees. ... she claims the high court's decision in Obergefell v Hodges -- extending marriage rights for same-sex couples under the 14th Amendment's due process protections -- was "egregiously wrong." https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/supreme-court-formally-asked-overturn-landmark-same-sex/story?id=124465302 On August 12 2025 03:51 Doublemint wrote:... Trump says he’s placing Washington police under federal control and activating the National GuardWASHINGTON (AP) — President Donald Trump said Monday he’s taking over Washington’s police department and activating 800 members of the National Guard in the hopes of reducing crime, even as city officials stressed crime is already falling in the nation’s capital.
The president, flanked by his attorney general, his defense secretary and the FBI director, said he was declaring a public safety emergency and his administration would be removing homeless encampments.
“We’re going to take our capital back,” Trump declared... Sure seems like what I said is just going to be more true every day until it's too late (if it isn't already) On August 07 2025 03:13 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 07 2025 02:53 Zambrah wrote:
Needed violence to beat the last major batch of fascists, prepare to engage in some violence to beat the current ones. Does really seem like "AmeriMaidan or bust!" could and should more or less be the plan from libs/Dems/ilk. Every day/time they want to emphasize how Trump is being horrible/destroying democracy/is a stooge for Putin, it isn't winning over voters, it is demonstrating yet another reason why they need to support their own "AmeriMaidan". Is "AmeriMaidan" a reference to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan + https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity (I'm not well-versed in that topic; sorry if I misunderstood.) I don't think that Americans would be willing to overthrow Trump and/or the Supreme Court (and/or Congress). I'm sure our TL thread will focus more on the upcoming Supreme Court case once it starts moving along. For now, it seems, the derailment of Razyda not knowing what a "job" is, and the reversion to the BlackJack/trans conversation, are the most popular topics of conversation. It's a reference to Euromaidan. The gist of it is that Euromaidan was (among other things) a wave of intense protests During the uprising, Independence Square (Maidan) in Kyiv was a huge protest camp occupied by thousands of protesters and protected by makeshift barricades. It had kitchens, first aid posts and broadcasting facilities, as well as stages for speeches, lectures, debates and performances. It was guarded by 'Maidan Self-Defense' units made up of volunteers in improvised uniform and helmets, carrying shields and armed with sticks, stones and petrol bombs. Protests were also held in many other parts of Ukraine. it was ostensibly the government's response that convinced Ukrainians to overthrow it with the "Revolution of Dignity". The sentiment Zambrah and I are sharing is that people in the US have to do something similar (whether they want to or not) or fascism will devastate all of us. Zambrah/Mohdoo more than myself have resigned to the belief that we're more likely banking on fascism imploding than Democrats (or their supporters) recognizing what the moment is demanding of them and rising to the occasion. I have to admit, every time the libs/Dems/ilk around here get sucked into the constant cycle of mocking and gawking (which has helped make Trump more favorable than they are) it does not help me maintain that optimism. Last time you said anything about Euromaidan in the Ukraine thread, it was to lament hegemonic meddling by the capitalist west (particularly the US) in Ukraine's politics, and to say that Russia's invasion was basically caused by the Ukrainians and western influence causing them to reject their rightful place as a Russian puppet state with a corrupt leader who ignored direct outcomes of referenda in favour of licking Putin's boots. Whew, that was a mouthful. But just to be clear, you now want that same Euromaidan protest to shine as an example of how Americans should gather in Washington to demand regime change? Did you (1) come to the realization that Ukrainians have the right to self-determination and not live under the heel of a Russian overlord, and everything you've claimed before about Euromaidan was rubbish? Or (2) you want Putin to invade the US and bring "peace and democracy"? Given his stances on China, I'd say he probably wishes that just like "US coped Ukraine to fuck with Russia" China does the same to the US in order to bring their benevolent and amazing political system. Also, BJ is, in my humble opinion just a reactionary debate lord who got told they can't be a huge asshole to someone in real life by someone on the left 10 years ago and has been doubling down on reactionary politics ever since. He doesn't really have political stances, he'll say whatever he thinks will trigger as many people who are willing to engage, it's a pretty hollow way to go through life but that's so many of these guys, I don't get it but I don't work in pediatric child care so maybe I'm just ignorant and he's fighting a holy, righteous crusade. Just for you here's my stance one more time + Show Spoiler +On July 03 2023 15:00 BlackJack wrote:
Thanks for asking. I guess I’ll add my thoughts on a few “trans issues”
Gender-affirming care
Obviously no sane person would oppose gender affirming care for adults so this is going to be about minors. While I don’t think the medical establishment is infallible (can cite many examples) I think they are still the best ones to make decisions on gender affirming care than politicians. Ultimately you need 3 parties consent here for any intervention, child, parent, and doctor. I don’t think parental rights are limitless but I generally yield to them vs the opinions of politicians. Whether a child ends up with regret may be tragic, sometimes that’s just life
Of course that simply means the medical establishment should call the shots, it doesn’t say what shots I think should be called. For example the medical establishment in America recommends gender affirming care for minors and the medical establishment in Finland/Sweden recommend against it. I don’t think the medical establishment in Finland/Sweden is full of bigots and transphobes and I obviously share some of their concerns e.g the unexplained rise in prevalence of gender dysphoria in female adolescents and rigorous evidence that shows the benefits outweighs the risks. I’ve posted before in this thread about social contagion. I think most people here believe that trans people are “born that way.” I tend to believe most things are a combination of nature vs nurture and it’s only for controversial topics that people will adopt this “it’s entirely genetic” or “it’s entirely environmental” dogma that hasn’t been proven.
In general I think gender affirming care is not something that should be immediately adopted. I’m also not familiar enough to know if it is or not. I don’t think a boy goes to a therapist for the first time and says “I’m a girl and my name is Susan” and the doctor says “Hi Susan.” I would hope there would be some “interesting… well why do you feel that way” beforehand. But ultimately it may be the judgement of the doctor and the parent that it’s not a phase they will grow out of and gender affirming care may be necessary. So I would say generally I think there should be a line drawn between reversible and irreversible interventions. E.g. role playing and puberty blockers as reversible. There’s some evidence that puberty blockers transitioned into hormone therapy in teenagers causes infertility, and I don’t really think anyone should be having top/bottom surgery before 18.
Transgender women in supports
This is anecdotal but most transgender women I meet are not athletes. They are definitely not elite athletes. I also think there’s a gap between men and women in sports, and not a small one. Often high school level boys can compete with professional women at the top levels. I also think Rayzda is right that without protections over time most world records would belong to MTF athletes. I also think most reasonable people agree this is unfair. I think most people think there should be some protections in place. For example to be a transgendered woman there are no requirements other than proclaiming yourself to be a transgender woman. I think if a male athlete just proclaimed themselves to be a transgender woman and wanted to race the next day against women most people would opposed this.
In short, a blanket ban on all MTF athletes doesn’t make sense because for the vast majority of the less talented athletes it accomplishes nothing in protect women’s sports and only excludes transgender athletes needlessly. Obviously there’s a small percent of cases where there is an obvious advantage that allows them to dominate and become champions and they are the few that should be excluded.
Bathroom bans
Just political theater in my opinion. People don’t go into the wrong bathrooms not because it’s the law but because that’s what societal norms dictate. I’m not aware of this being a problem and if it becomes a problem then you can worry about legislating it. I really couldn't be any more clear or concise. I can't control if people would rather talk about public bathrooms and who watches more trans porn, but you can't close your eyes and say I don't have a stance when it's clearly written in black and grey. It's not about the trans issues, hell, I don't really engage with thease kind of discussions because I'm both unqualified and don't care enough about it, I personally mostly align with what you wrote there, but I would never, ever go around and spend inordinate amounts of time being a contrarian over an issue that affects these poor people, the most marginalized and attacked minority in the world over the last 10 years. If, by some miracle you aren't lying through your teeth about how many of them you meet, you are honestly a monster, to meet all these poor people who have the full weight of a whole fucking political movement that's world wide bearing down on them and you think that a good way to spend your time is to pile on, well, buddy, you are a fucking monster with no empathy. Don't get me wrong, I think KwarK, as an example, is similar to you when it comes to Gaza, he obviously spends time thinking about it and continuously attacks the victims and people advocating for them. It's pretty fucked up, and I don't want to single just you out, but yeah, there is something deeply wrong with you if this is how you think and act.
To this, KwarK responded with a diatribe which, yes, described both sides as unreasonable and fucked up, what he and you don't get is that when there are 2 sides in a conflict and one has all the power and the other basically none, if you are saying "there is no hope" you are condemning the side with no power to die. This is where the lack of empathy kicks in.
This is why I don't spend my time attacking Trans people or bringing up Hamas every time Gaza is mentioned.
Trans people and Gazans are the people with no power, insane and aggressive Trans activists who alienate allies with purity testing and insane terrorist suicide cult of Hamas are irrelevant to me when it comes to suffering of these groups and to me, people like BJ who defend attacks on Trans community when their rights are being stripped away or you and KwarK while Gazans are being bombed and starved are the part of the problem, no amount of rationalizing or occasional post saying "it's complicated" will convince me that you are good faith interlocutors when there is such a body of work arguing in bad faith behind you.
Of course, if KwarK's post left out the parts how there is no point building schools "because Hamas" or how Israel hasn't invaded in 18 years or are such peace lovers that they trade land for peace I would have nothing to complain about and I'd welcome it, but given that all those things were inserted in the post that "I didn't read" I can't help but point them out, because they are bad faith arguments.
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On August 13 2025 04:26 Jankisa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2025 03:33 Billyboy wrote:On August 13 2025 01:20 Jankisa wrote:
Sure, you are just misunderstood, how could I read your screeching about Hezbolah and Gazans who participated in October 7th and Israel's lack of invasions and them "buying peace with land" and understand that as anything other then you expressing your hate for the situation.
And it's fun to see you back in your 1 or two liner mode as soon as you get called out for flat out lying and providing cover for genocidal moves, exactly what someone who is misunderstood would do. I think if you reread his post you will see that he says there tends to be two perspectives and the one you are saying he has, he explicitly says he does not and that he's not sure anyone on the threads has it. It often feels like you read peoples posts as if they are the person you really want to argue with rather than what that person is actually saying. I'm sure there is plenty of stuff you actually disagree with Kwark about but if you don't take the time to understand his perspective you are just going to end up talking past him and hi coming back with snide remarks, instead of am interesting conversation that you guys could have and we could read. I don't really want to argue with KwarK because I think he's dishonest and argues in bad faith. I brought him up in the context of describing another person's posting style who I also think argues in bad faith. I understand the perspective he wants to present and the way he wants to present himself, I just think that he's not being honest about what he does and how he carries himself. I had the same problem with you. For people who seem to have a big problem with your perceived "me not reading posts" you don't seem to be reading mine, so, let me just re-quote what I wrote and what got this exchange initiated: Show nested quote +On August 12 2025 19:16 Jankisa wrote:On August 12 2025 17:19 BlackJack wrote:On August 12 2025 16:52 Jankisa wrote:On August 12 2025 16:10 Acrofales wrote:On August 12 2025 15:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 12 2025 14:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 12 2025 08:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 12 2025 06:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:We all knew this was coming, especially after women lost their rights. Gay marriage might be next. Supreme Court formally asked to overturn landmark same-sex marriage ruling
Ten years after the Supreme Court extended marriage rights to same-sex couples nationwide, the justices this fall will consider for the first time whether to take up a case that explicitly asks them to overturn that decision.
Kim Davis, the former Kentucky county clerk who was jailed for six days in 2015 after refusing to issue marriage licenses to a gay couple on religious grounds, is appealing a $100,000 jury verdict for emotional damages plus $260,000 for attorneys fees. ... she claims the high court's decision in Obergefell v Hodges -- extending marriage rights for same-sex couples under the 14th Amendment's due process protections -- was "egregiously wrong." https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/supreme-court-formally-asked-overturn-landmark-same-sex/story?id=124465302 On August 12 2025 03:51 Doublemint wrote:... Trump says he’s placing Washington police under federal control and activating the National GuardWASHINGTON (AP) — President Donald Trump said Monday he’s taking over Washington’s police department and activating 800 members of the National Guard in the hopes of reducing crime, even as city officials stressed crime is already falling in the nation’s capital.
The president, flanked by his attorney general, his defense secretary and the FBI director, said he was declaring a public safety emergency and his administration would be removing homeless encampments.
“We’re going to take our capital back,” Trump declared... Sure seems like what I said is just going to be more true every day until it's too late (if it isn't already) On August 07 2025 03:13 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 07 2025 02:53 Zambrah wrote:
Needed violence to beat the last major batch of fascists, prepare to engage in some violence to beat the current ones. Does really seem like "AmeriMaidan or bust!" could and should more or less be the plan from libs/Dems/ilk. Every day/time they want to emphasize how Trump is being horrible/destroying democracy/is a stooge for Putin, it isn't winning over voters, it is demonstrating yet another reason why they need to support their own "AmeriMaidan". Is "AmeriMaidan" a reference to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan + https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity (I'm not well-versed in that topic; sorry if I misunderstood.) I don't think that Americans would be willing to overthrow Trump and/or the Supreme Court (and/or Congress). I'm sure our TL thread will focus more on the upcoming Supreme Court case once it starts moving along. For now, it seems, the derailment of Razyda not knowing what a "job" is, and the reversion to the BlackJack/trans conversation, are the most popular topics of conversation. It's a reference to Euromaidan. The gist of it is that Euromaidan was (among other things) a wave of intense protests During the uprising, Independence Square (Maidan) in Kyiv was a huge protest camp occupied by thousands of protesters and protected by makeshift barricades. It had kitchens, first aid posts and broadcasting facilities, as well as stages for speeches, lectures, debates and performances. It was guarded by 'Maidan Self-Defense' units made up of volunteers in improvised uniform and helmets, carrying shields and armed with sticks, stones and petrol bombs. Protests were also held in many other parts of Ukraine. it was ostensibly the government's response that convinced Ukrainians to overthrow it with the "Revolution of Dignity". The sentiment Zambrah and I are sharing is that people in the US have to do something similar (whether they want to or not) or fascism will devastate all of us. Zambrah/Mohdoo more than myself have resigned to the belief that we're more likely banking on fascism imploding than Democrats (or their supporters) recognizing what the moment is demanding of them and rising to the occasion. I have to admit, every time the libs/Dems/ilk around here get sucked into the constant cycle of mocking and gawking (which has helped make Trump more favorable than they are) it does not help me maintain that optimism. Last time you said anything about Euromaidan in the Ukraine thread, it was to lament hegemonic meddling by the capitalist west (particularly the US) in Ukraine's politics, and to say that Russia's invasion was basically caused by the Ukrainians and western influence causing them to reject their rightful place as a Russian puppet state with a corrupt leader who ignored direct outcomes of referenda in favour of licking Putin's boots. Whew, that was a mouthful. But just to be clear, you now want that same Euromaidan protest to shine as an example of how Americans should gather in Washington to demand regime change? Did you (1) come to the realization that Ukrainians have the right to self-determination and not live under the heel of a Russian overlord, and everything you've claimed before about Euromaidan was rubbish? Or (2) you want Putin to invade the US and bring "peace and democracy"? Given his stances on China, I'd say he probably wishes that just like "US coped Ukraine to fuck with Russia" China does the same to the US in order to bring their benevolent and amazing political system. Also, BJ is, in my humble opinion just a reactionary debate lord who got told they can't be a huge asshole to someone in real life by someone on the left 10 years ago and has been doubling down on reactionary politics ever since. He doesn't really have political stances, he'll say whatever he thinks will trigger as many people who are willing to engage, it's a pretty hollow way to go through life but that's so many of these guys, I don't get it but I don't work in pediatric child care so maybe I'm just ignorant and he's fighting a holy, righteous crusade. Just for you here's my stance one more time + Show Spoiler +On July 03 2023 15:00 BlackJack wrote:
Thanks for asking. I guess I’ll add my thoughts on a few “trans issues”
Gender-affirming care
Obviously no sane person would oppose gender affirming care for adults so this is going to be about minors. While I don’t think the medical establishment is infallible (can cite many examples) I think they are still the best ones to make decisions on gender affirming care than politicians. Ultimately you need 3 parties consent here for any intervention, child, parent, and doctor. I don’t think parental rights are limitless but I generally yield to them vs the opinions of politicians. Whether a child ends up with regret may be tragic, sometimes that’s just life
Of course that simply means the medical establishment should call the shots, it doesn’t say what shots I think should be called. For example the medical establishment in America recommends gender affirming care for minors and the medical establishment in Finland/Sweden recommend against it. I don’t think the medical establishment in Finland/Sweden is full of bigots and transphobes and I obviously share some of their concerns e.g the unexplained rise in prevalence of gender dysphoria in female adolescents and rigorous evidence that shows the benefits outweighs the risks. I’ve posted before in this thread about social contagion. I think most people here believe that trans people are “born that way.” I tend to believe most things are a combination of nature vs nurture and it’s only for controversial topics that people will adopt this “it’s entirely genetic” or “it’s entirely environmental” dogma that hasn’t been proven.
In general I think gender affirming care is not something that should be immediately adopted. I’m also not familiar enough to know if it is or not. I don’t think a boy goes to a therapist for the first time and says “I’m a girl and my name is Susan” and the doctor says “Hi Susan.” I would hope there would be some “interesting… well why do you feel that way” beforehand. But ultimately it may be the judgement of the doctor and the parent that it’s not a phase they will grow out of and gender affirming care may be necessary. So I would say generally I think there should be a line drawn between reversible and irreversible interventions. E.g. role playing and puberty blockers as reversible. There’s some evidence that puberty blockers transitioned into hormone therapy in teenagers causes infertility, and I don’t really think anyone should be having top/bottom surgery before 18.
Transgender women in supports
This is anecdotal but most transgender women I meet are not athletes. They are definitely not elite athletes. I also think there’s a gap between men and women in sports, and not a small one. Often high school level boys can compete with professional women at the top levels. I also think Rayzda is right that without protections over time most world records would belong to MTF athletes. I also think most reasonable people agree this is unfair. I think most people think there should be some protections in place. For example to be a transgendered woman there are no requirements other than proclaiming yourself to be a transgender woman. I think if a male athlete just proclaimed themselves to be a transgender woman and wanted to race the next day against women most people would opposed this.
In short, a blanket ban on all MTF athletes doesn’t make sense because for the vast majority of the less talented athletes it accomplishes nothing in protect women’s sports and only excludes transgender athletes needlessly. Obviously there’s a small percent of cases where there is an obvious advantage that allows them to dominate and become champions and they are the few that should be excluded.
Bathroom bans
Just political theater in my opinion. People don’t go into the wrong bathrooms not because it’s the law but because that’s what societal norms dictate. I’m not aware of this being a problem and if it becomes a problem then you can worry about legislating it. I really couldn't be any more clear or concise. I can't control if people would rather talk about public bathrooms and who watches more trans porn, but you can't close your eyes and say I don't have a stance when it's clearly written in black and grey. It's not about the trans issues, hell, I don't really engage with thease kind of discussions because I'm both unqualified and don't care enough about it, I personally mostly align with what you wrote there, but I would never, ever go around and spend inordinate amounts of time being a contrarian over an issue that affects these poor people, the most marginalized and attacked minority in the world over the last 10 years. If, by some miracle you aren't lying through your teeth about how many of them you meet, you are honestly a monster, to meet all these poor people who have the full weight of a whole fucking political movement that's world wide bearing down on them and you think that a good way to spend your time is to pile on, well, buddy, you are a fucking monster with no empathy. Don't get me wrong, I think KwarK, as an example, is similar to you when it comes to Gaza, he obviously spends time thinking about it and continuously attacks the victims and people advocating for them. It's pretty fucked up, and I don't want to single just you out, but yeah, there is something deeply wrong with you if this is how you think and act. To this, KwarK responded with a diatribe which, yes, described both sides as unreasonable and fucked up, what he and you don't get is that when there are 2 sides in a conflict and one has all the power and the other basically none, if you are saying "there is no hope" you are condemning the side with no power to die. This is where the lack of empathy kicks in. This is why I don't spend my time attacking Trans people or bringing up Hamas every time Gaza is mentioned. Trans people and Gazans are the people with no power, insane and aggressive Trans activists who alienate allies with purity testing and insane terrorist suicide cult of Hamas are irrelevant to me when it comes to suffering of these groups and to me, people like BJ who defend attacks on Trans community when their rights are being stripped away or you and KwarK while Gazans are being bombed and starved are the part of the problem, no amount of rationalizing or occasional post saying "it's complicated" will convince me that you are good faith interlocutors when there is such a body of work arguing in bad faith behind you. Of course, if KwarK's post left out the parts how there is no point building schools "because Hamas" or how Israel hasn't invaded in 18 years or are such peace lovers that they trade land for peace I would have nothing to complain about and I'd welcome it, but given that all those things were inserted in the post that "I didn't read" I can't help but point them out, because they are bad faith arguments.
Everyone assuming everyone else is dishonest is what is ruining this thread and making discussion impossible for anyone who do not completely agree and makes it really boring to read. Like if you make a presumption (like we all do) and someone says, I actually meant this. Just believe them and continue on. WE all need to get better at this Kwark as well. But this thing is spiralling pretty hard these days.
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