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On August 11 2025 18:53 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2025 18:30 oBlade wrote:Yeah I have no idea how to parse that reckoning either. Ban after 1st trimester - far right Ban after 2nd trimester - right No ban (allow including 3rd trimester) - center (Where is "left?") total ban - presumably "extreme" right meaning worse than "far" What's supposed to be left? 3 months after birth? This doesn't fit. On August 11 2025 18:27 Magic Powers wrote:On August 11 2025 18:23 BlackJack wrote:
There's plenty of European countries that restrict abortion around 12 weeks. Calling this far right is just not correct, imo. But I also know the futility of arguing with how you choose to define things so I'll leave it there. "It is also banned in other countries, therefore it's not right-wing" is a non-sequitur. A ban at 12 months is strictly far right. You can't ban abortion at 12 months and consider yourself a moderate or even right-leaning person. You're definitely not left-wing. It's literally impossible. Do you want to redefine the political compass? This was your rationale for RFK being right-wing. How is his abstract (or even personal?) belief in this right-wing but Europe's application of it exempted from being right wing? Actually I think it checks out. Here's the Mark Cuban quote I posted earlier Show nested quote +Even if you agree with 95% of what a person is saying on a topic, if there is one point that you might call out as being more of a grey area, they will call you a fascist So the left-wing stance is the 5% on the end and everyone else that only gets up to 95% of the way there is the right-wing stance. 24 week ban? Right wing. 20 week ban? Far right. 12 week ban? Extreme right. 6 week ban? Fascist right. Total ban? Literal reincarnation of Hitler. Edit: Haha, posted this only a couple minutes after MP's post without seeing it Show nested quote +On August 11 2025 18:49 Magic Powers wrote:
These are the options:
No ban -> Literally Marx
7-8 months -> Extreme left
6-7 months -> Far left
5-6 months -> Left-wing
5 months -> Moderate
3-4 months -> Right-wing
2-3 months -> Far right
1-2 months -> Extreme right
Complete ban -> Literally Hitler Damn I got pretty close.
About 1-2 years ago I explained that Europe was more illiberal on abortion than the US prior to the 2022 ruling. Austria and Germany have a 12 and 13 week ban on abortion. The UK has a 24 week ban. The UK is an example of a left-wing policy on abortion, whereas Austria and Germany are examples of right-wing policies.
If you don't think this is the correct way to view it, then make an argument. Don't just call RFK a left-winger based on nothing. He has clearly more right-wing than left-wing views. So make an argument.
On August 11 2025 19:09 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2025 18:30 oBlade wrote:
Yeah I have no idea how to parse that reckoning either.
Ban after 1st trimester - far right
Ban after 2nd trimester - right
No ban (allow including 3rd trimester) - center (Where is "left?")
total ban - presumably "extreme" right meaning worse than "far"
What's supposed to be left? 3 months after birth? This doesn't fit.
Seems you got it wrong: Show nested quote +On August 11 2025 18:27 Magic Powers wrote:On August 11 2025 18:23 BlackJack wrote:
There's plenty of European countries that restrict abortion around 12 weeks. Calling this far right is just not correct, imo. But I also know the futility of arguing with how you choose to define things so I'll leave it there. "It is also banned in other countries, therefore it's not right-wing" is a non-sequitur. A ban at 12 months is strictly far right. You can't ban abortion at 12 months and consider yourself a moderate or even right-leaning person. You're definitely not left-wing. It's literally impossible. Do you want to redefine the political compass?
Thanks for the correction, I've edited my comment.
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To pivot a bit, although I was half joking in my last post about the left wing stance being the at one extreme and everything else being right wing, it's basically like pulling teeth to try to get a Democratic politician to answer when they think abortion access should be restricted. It's one of those questions they ask at the debate, "What restrictions, if any, would you place on abortion" and they just filibuster and hem and haw and ultimately won't say anything. Then it turns to Trump with his smug shit eating grin who says "See? She can't name any restrictions, she is okay with abortion until the moment of birth."
It's really not difficult. Something like "I think women should have access to abortion until the 3rd trimester and then it should only be done in special cases to protect the health of the mother or in fetuses with serious health issues." Clear, concise, popular. But they can't do it. Then Democrats will say they have a messaging problem. Their messaging problem is that they are just scared shitless to say their message.
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Norway28908 Posts
I actually think 'it tastes good' is fine if you're trying to convince someone to eat something.
Anyway - Countries like Denmark, Italy, Germany, Czech Republic, Norway until 1 year ago, set the 'by request'-limit at 12 weeks. Sweden and Norway are now at 18, Netherlands 24, France 14..
I think how accessible and acceptable it is before week 12 is honestly a bigger factor than by what week you set the deadline, in a vast majority of cases 12 weeks is plenty of time to decide. Don't get me wrong I'm a supporter of 18 or even 24 weeks because I think women aren't frivulously deciding to get late term abortions - late term abortions are usually traumatic even without having to jump through hoops to get them - but as long as they're freely available to anyone the first 12 weeks, I'm basically in a 'that's alright'-camp. Amusingly enough, in Norway, the 12 week limit was an established compromise which nobody really cared about adjusting until our Christian People's party used their coalition government position to restrict the option of selective fetal reduction (aborting 1 twin). Then, when the next left-of-center government got in power, abortion rights were expanded until week 18. Wouldn't have happened if not for the CPP opening the abortion-debate-can.
Maybe there's actually a parallell here looking at the US, possibly going both ways. Like if neither party tried to move away from legal and accessible at 12 weeks, it'd be an acceptable compromise, but with it turning into a battleground issue, you get different states wanting either much more accessible or much more restrictive depending on their political leanings.
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On August 11 2025 19:28 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I actually think 'it tastes good' is fine if you're trying to convince someone to eat something.
Anyway - Countries like Denmark, Italy, Germany, Czech Republic, Norway until 1 year ago, set the 'by request'-limit at 12 weeks. Sweden and Norway are now at 18, Netherlands 24, France 14..
I think how accessible and acceptable it is before week 12 is honestly a bigger factor than by what week you set the deadline, in a vast majority of cases 12 weeks is plenty of time to decide. Don't get me wrong I'm a supporter of 18 or even 24 weeks because I think women aren't frivulously deciding to get late term abortions - late term abortions are usually traumatic even without having to jump through hoops to get them - but as long as they're freely available to anyone the first 12 weeks, I'm basically in a 'that's alright'-camp. Amusingly enough, in Norway, the 12 week limit was an established compromise which nobody really cared about adjusting until our Christian People's party used their coalition government position to restrict the option of selective fetal reduction (aborting 1 twin). Then, when the next left-of-center government got in power, abortion rights were expanded until week 18. Wouldn't have happened if not for the CPP opening the abortion-debate-can.
Maybe there's actually a parallell here looking at the US, possibly going both ways. Like if neither party tried to move away from legal and accessible at 12 weeks, it'd be an acceptable compromise, but with it turning into a battleground issue, you get different states wanting either much more accessible or much more restrictive depending on their political leanings.
A 12 week ban sounds liberal enough to some, but in practice it's often not really 12 weeks but much less than that. A lot of women don't notice their own pregnancy soon enough to get an abortion before 12 weeks. Or they live in a household which would make it near impossible for them to get an abortion in time. Or they live in a state that has banned it and now they have to wait much longer to get an abortion in a state where it's legal, again resulting in a long delay. Or they require an abortion due to their health situation suddenly deteriorating but they're moving past the 12 weeks and now they have to battle the law which forces them to carry for several weeks longer, which causes some women to give up on this battle and others to suffer needlessly before finally getting the abortion they rightfully deserve.
And there are many other examples of things going wrong with a 12 week ban.
Meanwhile extending the ban to at least 24 weeks would solve almost 100% of these problems. Giving more power to doctors is the right thing to do almost always.
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On August 11 2025 19:08 Uldridge wrote:
You're not explaining anything. You're just saying that a stance on a thing entails a political position without the explanation. That's like trying to convince someone to try apple pie, because it tastes good and they ask why should I try it and you say "because it tastes good". No texture, combination of flavors, baking process, materials used, .. just "it taste good".
I have explained sufficiently why a 12 week ban is right-wing and not left-wing. At around 24 weeks it's left-wing. You can't seriously argue that a more restrictive ban is more left-wing. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
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United States44372 Posts
On August 11 2025 19:03 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2025 18:55 Uldridge wrote:
I don't believe for a second MP is arguing in good faith here and is just trolling BJ and oBlade, lol I'm being 100% serious, what is your problem with my argument?
Right vs left is about a combination of authoritarianism and economic freedoms and abortion is basically not involved at all.
We know RFK is far right because he's willing to serve in the cabinet of a far right populist who staged a literal coup to hold onto power and routinely uses the power of the state to silence opposition. That's the one to use. Abortion couldn't be further from the point.
Nobody asks what Göring's abortion stance is when trying to identify whether he's far right. The far right in America made an alliance with Christian fundamentalists and so they're fellow travelers on the abortion issue but that doesn't make abortion a far right issue. Restrictive abortion policy could easily coexist with Catholic egalitarian policy.
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When, last year? As far as I know, only last page has one of the perpetual arguments been reignited. I think 3 month blanket ban is quite conservative, but can be less so dependent on the exceptions surrounding it.
A more restrictive ban could be more left-wing depending on the framework you operate under. You could claim, for instance, that relieving society from a functional human you're causing for a net detriment because less working hands and is actually incredibly asocial towards your fellow comrades. More left isn't necessarily more ethical.
In our current social system, it's impossible for it to be more left wing, I agree.
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RFK is not Goring, even if you prove Blumpf is Hitler it's a childish guilt by association to assume that consequently everyone working under him is far right. And it ignores the very public and non-fascist reasons which we know how RFK came to be a part of the cabinet.
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United States44372 Posts
On August 11 2025 20:10 oBlade wrote:
RFK is not Goring, even if you prove Blumpf is Hitler it's a childish guilt by association to assume that consequently everyone working under him is far right. And it ignores the very public and non-fascist reasons which we know how RFK came to be a part of the cabinet.
Guilt by association is real guilt. How many members of Hitler's cabinet would you suppose had nothing to do with the Nazis and their policies? I'm going to go ahead and take a guess at approximately 0.
You can't serve in the cabinet and not be associated with the policies of the government. He's in the room actively participating. He's guilty of being far right.
This is an honestly ridiculous hill for you to die on. Let's say someone was accused of being a communist and all you had on them was their membership of the communist party, their leadership position in the communist party, and multiple photos of them at communist party events. If I were to assert that you were declaring them guilty by association then that wouldn't be a very good attack, they would be reasonably presumed to be a communist on the basis of that association.
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Is micronesia guilty of being far right?
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On August 11 2025 19:13 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2025 18:53 BlackJack wrote:On August 11 2025 18:30 oBlade wrote:Yeah I have no idea how to parse that reckoning either. Ban after 1st trimester - far right Ban after 2nd trimester - right No ban (allow including 3rd trimester) - center (Where is "left?") total ban - presumably "extreme" right meaning worse than "far" What's supposed to be left? 3 months after birth? This doesn't fit. On August 11 2025 18:27 Magic Powers wrote:On August 11 2025 18:23 BlackJack wrote:
There's plenty of European countries that restrict abortion around 12 weeks. Calling this far right is just not correct, imo. But I also know the futility of arguing with how you choose to define things so I'll leave it there. "It is also banned in other countries, therefore it's not right-wing" is a non-sequitur. A ban at 12 months is strictly far right. You can't ban abortion at 12 months and consider yourself a moderate or even right-leaning person. You're definitely not left-wing. It's literally impossible. Do you want to redefine the political compass? This was your rationale for RFK being right-wing. How is his abstract (or even personal?) belief in this right-wing but Europe's application of it exempted from being right wing? Actually I think it checks out. Here's the Mark Cuban quote I posted earlier Even if you agree with 95% of what a person is saying on a topic, if there is one point that you might call out as being more of a grey area, they will call you a fascist So the left-wing stance is the 5% on the end and everyone else that only gets up to 95% of the way there is the right-wing stance. 24 week ban? Right wing. 20 week ban? Far right. 12 week ban? Extreme right. 6 week ban? Fascist right. Total ban? Literal reincarnation of Hitler. Edit: Haha, posted this only a couple minutes after MP's post without seeing it On August 11 2025 18:49 Magic Powers wrote:
These are the options:
No ban -> Literally Marx
7-8 months -> Extreme left
6-7 months -> Far left
5-6 months -> Left-wing
5 months -> Moderate
3-4 months -> Right-wing
2-3 months -> Far right
1-2 months -> Extreme right
Complete ban -> Literally Hitler Damn I got pretty close. About 1-2 years ago I explained that Europe was more illiberal on abortion than the US prior to the 2022 ruling. Austria and Germany have a 12 and 13 week ban on abortion. The UK has a 24 week ban. The UK is an example of a left-wing policy on abortion, whereas Austria and Germany are examples of right-wing policies.If you don't think this is the correct way to view it, then make an argument. Don't just call RFK a left-winger based on nothing. He has clearly more right-wing than left-wing views. So make an argument. Show nested quote +On August 11 2025 19:09 Razyda wrote:On August 11 2025 18:30 oBlade wrote:
Yeah I have no idea how to parse that reckoning either.
Ban after 1st trimester - far right
Ban after 2nd trimester - right
No ban (allow including 3rd trimester) - center (Where is "left?")
total ban - presumably "extreme" right meaning worse than "far"
What's supposed to be left? 3 months after birth? This doesn't fit.
Seems you got it wrong: On August 11 2025 18:27 Magic Powers wrote:On August 11 2025 18:23 BlackJack wrote:
There's plenty of European countries that restrict abortion around 12 weeks. Calling this far right is just not correct, imo. But I also know the futility of arguing with how you choose to define things so I'll leave it there. "It is also banned in other countries, therefore it's not right-wing" is a non-sequitur. A ban at 12 months is strictly far right. You can't ban abortion at 12 months and consider yourself a moderate or even right-leaning person. You're definitely not left-wing. It's literally impossible. Do you want to redefine the political compass? Thanks for the correction, I've edited my comment.
I also would not call Austria's way of handling this issue - strictly - right wing. given the historical context especially.
before the "Fristenlösung" in 74' people went to jail for up to 5 years for aborting. now that I would clearly put into the reactionary right wing corner. and interestingly very much in line of what very similar forces today would want to re-establish.
it was a bitterly fought battle, but thankfully a massive win for female autonomy and the Social Democrats in a very catholic and conservative country. also echoes of the past if you look to the US.
now a lot of time passed, science progressed and people also moved into the direction of a more liberal lifestyle I could see calling one country's "handling" more restrictive/"right wing" compared to more liberal/left wing if you will. it's kinda complicated.
and I also would agree that it could be argued that 12 weeks might be too little time to decide something of this magnitude in general, as MDs noticed most women are simply unaware they are pregnant 6+ weeks in.
simply because of how the body works and as a medical reality.
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Is micronesia appointed by Trump directly and part of his executive cabinet? What a weak ass gotcha.
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United States44372 Posts
On August 11 2025 19:26 BlackJack wrote:
To pivot a bit, although I was half joking in my last post about the left wing stance being the at one extreme and everything else being right wing, it's basically like pulling teeth to try to get a Democratic politician to answer when they think abortion access should be restricted. It's one of those questions they ask at the debate, "What restrictions, if any, would you place on abortion" and they just filibuster and hem and haw and ultimately won't say anything. Then it turns to Trump with his smug shit eating grin who says "See? She can't name any restrictions, she is okay with abortion until the moment of birth."
It's really not difficult. Something like "I think women should have access to abortion until the 3rd trimester and then it should only be done in special cases to protect the health of the mother or in fetuses with serious health issues." Clear, concise, popular. But they can't do it. Then Democrats will say they have a messaging problem. Their messaging problem is that they are just scared shitless to say their message.
It is difficult because it is a complicated issue with a shitload of exceptions for rare medical scenarios. Like every other part of Trump's populism he just makes up something because he literally doesn't understand how complicated the world is. To take your quote, you didn't explicitly rule out a doctor pulling out their hospital issue glock and executing a 3 month old child because the mother didn't like being a mother. Sounds to me like you're okay with infanticide. Obviously you know you're not, but you didn't explicitly rule it out.
The problem the Democrats have is that the other side is completely disinterested in making any kind of good faith argument. That's why conservatives are convinced that doctors are aborting toddlers all the time. Republicans keep telling their base that it's happening and the issue is too complicated to debunk every allegation of a braindead fetus incompatible with life outside of the womb that is terminated.
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On August 11 2025 20:23 Uldridge wrote:
Is micronesia appointed by Trump directly and part of his executive cabinet? What a weak ass gotcha.
They both share the common trait of having no power or authority to, for example, stop/affect deportations of illegal immigrants or whatever other fascist policy you may be thinking of.
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United States44372 Posts
On August 11 2025 20:18 oBlade wrote:
Is micronesia guilty of being far right?
Not only is this not a good faith argument for you to make, it's not even a clever bad faith argument. Do better.
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On August 11 2025 20:02 Uldridge wrote:
When, last year? As far as I know, only last page has one of the perpetual arguments been reignited. I think 3 month blanket ban is quite conservative, but can be less so dependent on the exceptions surrounding it.
A more restrictive ban could be more left-wing depending on the framework you operate under. You could claim, for instance, that relieving society from a functional human you're causing for a net detriment because less working hands and is actually incredibly asocial towards your fellow comrades. More left isn't necessarily more ethical.
In our current social system, it's impossible for it to be more left wing, I agree.
I mean I agree that outside of the US it can be labeled differently, but US politics is distinct from a large number of other countries. China and Russia had abortion bans under authoritarian left-wing rule, but in the US such regressive policies on women's rights are considered conservative and therefore right-wing. A 12 week ban falls under that label.
It's important to note that the US had mostly 20-24 week bans prior to 2022. It also had a few highly regressive exceptions but those weren't criminalized. That's why the US was considered a beacon of freedom until a few generations ago. That perception slowly began to crumble, mostly due to the constant and brutal wars, and now we're seeing the US turn towards fascism domestically.
RFK is an opportunist, which is a very common path for right-wingers. He used to be left-wing, then he became right-wing due to his allegiance to Trump. This also happened to Joe Rogan and to Elon Musk and many others. It's just how fascism works: people latch onto one or two of the conservative ideals of fascists, then they fall for more propaganda, and then they get dragged into the cult. Opportunists like RFK are the ideal useful idiots of that cult.
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United States44372 Posts
On August 11 2025 20:27 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2025 20:23 Uldridge wrote:
Is micronesia appointed by Trump directly and part of his executive cabinet? What a weak ass gotcha. They both share the common trait of having no power or authority to, for example, stop/affect deportations of illegal immigrants or whatever other fascist policy you may be thinking of.
This isn't sufficient. Before I accept your argument and respond to it I'm going to need to hear a much longer list of things that they have in common. Please continue.
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United States44372 Posts
On August 11 2025 20:29 Magic Powers wrote:
It's important to note that the US had mostly 20-24 week bans prior to 2022. It also had a few highly regressive exceptions but those weren't criminalized. That's why the US was considered a beacon of freedom until a few generations ago. That perception slowly began to crumble, mostly due to the constant and brutal wars, and now we're seeing the US turn towards fascism domestically.
Abortion is very much not why the US was considered a beacon of freedom during the early Cold War.
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Does his cabinet have meetings? Is suggesting or discussing having "no power or authority"? How do you know what RFK says to Kristi Noem and if it influencea her decisions?
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On August 11 2025 20:31 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2025 20:29 Magic Powers wrote:
It's important to note that the US had mostly 20-24 week bans prior to 2022. It also had a few highly regressive exceptions but those weren't criminalized. That's why the US was considered a beacon of freedom until a few generations ago. That perception slowly began to crumble, mostly due to the constant and brutal wars, and now we're seeing the US turn towards fascism domestically. Abortion is very much not why the US was considered a beacon of freedom during the early Cold War.
Did you hear me say that the US was ONLY considered a beacon of freedom because of abortion rights? No? Then stop being so intentionally inflammatory. Start arguing in good faith. You wanna be perceived as a rational person? Then act like it and stop attacking completely normal statements all the time.
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