|
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On January 23 2025 06:47 KT_Elwood wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 06:30 Zambrah wrote:
Cant wait for Democrats to get back in power and show us all how hard it is to do things again If you can cook up 500,000,000,000 Dollars from thin air with an executive order, Democrats deserve King Trump and no more elections what so ever. Hell, round them up and make them play squidgame on a facblarg/X/Teams lifestream for being useless.
As long as politics is going to be driven to some large extent by entertainment factor I would at least prefer the Squid Games variety of it. Bunch of rich and powerful sociopaths going at it in children's games would be an interesting sight, just a bunch of copies of Old Angry Man from Season 2 playing games to the death
|
Northern Ireland23745 Posts
On January 23 2025 06:48 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 06:20 ghrur wrote:On January 23 2025 05:51 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 05:30 Gorsameth wrote:On January 23 2025 05:24 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 04:44 hexhaven wrote:On January 23 2025 04:35 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 02:40 oBlade wrote:On January 23 2025 02:01 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 00:54 Velr wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, all these authistic people constantly making accidental Nazi-Salutes are really getting on my nerves since quite some time.
It just a nice showing of how much these organisations/people look after their own cushy positions over what's right. They could also just be wrong to be fair. Although it seems somewhat unlikely to me. Regardless, I think it’s pretty patently ridiculous to pull a ‘but the ADL said…’ on this occasion from folks who’ve mocked the ASL for calling out dog whistles and whatnot for years now. False negatives and false positives are fundamentally different errors. For the same reason you are hopefully more likely to criticize a doctor who gave antacids to someone complaining of chest pain and died of a heart attack, than you are to criticize a doctor who gave a patient a blood test, EKG, ultrasound, MRI, and angiogram who ended up only having heartburn. The mechanics of the selective invocation of the ADL you want to get at are more than the possible gotcha you are otherwise right to be initially skeptical about. There is no risk to the ADL, who created themselves to police antisemitism, calling an inanimate green frog an antisemitic hate symbol. It's not going to sue them for defamation and it's not going to have any negative consequences - it's safe. When you get a self-described pro-semite doing an apparent LITERAL Nazi salute, you'd think it would be the perfect opportunity to nail him to the wall, so to speak. Rather, they were extra careful to get it right this time. The deeper issue is that this part of the left cannot sincerely use the moral gravity of Nazism to criticize a political faction made up of alleged fascists who are all... Israel supporters, Zionists, Jewish, or all of the above (or indeed whose defenders are any or all of the above as in the ADL's case), when the left has rabid antisemitism. Antisemitism is fundamental to every iteration of Nazism. Calling supporters of Israel Nazi is as laugh-out-of-the-roomable as calling Hitler Jewish. It is a painful category mistake. In fact it's so absurd that I can only picture it as a bar insult among opposite aisle bigots. Like a skinhead saying to a guy Netanyahu is a Nazi and then him responding oh yeah? well Hitler loved Israel and ate matzo balls every day. And both of their faces turning red and going "you take that back." What Drone is correct on for reasons of basic decorum, is actually also correct in basic facts. ‘Is Elon Musk a Nazi?’ is a fundamentally different question from ‘did Elon Musk do a Nazi salute, and if so, why?’ For me it’s no, yes, and trolling/shitposting rather than some admiration for Nazism. If the ADL feel unable to call what very much looks like a spade, a spade for worrying of litigation that in and of itself is problematic if that read is the case. You can’t say something like ‘While it may have been unintentional, we remind public figures to avoid gestures that may be construed in this manner.’? I studiously avoid the whole ‘Nazi’ charge for the reasons outlined, or as Drone has said. Not that specificity of political affiliation is a great strength of our collective discourse. Those darn socialists and Communists who are one degree left of Margaret Thatcher! Musk has been openly supporting antisemitic parties in various parts of Europe. He’s an utterly repellent piece of shit and a Fascist-enabler, I just don’t think he’s personally a full card-carrying Nazi is all. he regularly retweets nazi propaganda and has now openly done 2 very obvious nazi salutes. I'm curious what it takes for you if that is not enough. He isn't just letting them do their thing on twitter, he is actively promoting them. Being a Nazi I suppose? It doesn’t make him any less dangerous, functionally appeasing a bunch of Neo-Nazis is the pertinent problem, it doesn’t make much difference whether it’s out of self-interested pragmatism or being a true believer, you’re still appeasing Nazis. There’s probably a parallel universe where Trump is beloved darling of the left of the country and conservatives hate him. It’s a useful vector for power, albeit unlike Trump I think Musk does believe some of his shtick. But no to the degree I’d label him a Nazi, increasingly far right leaning Fascist, sure. But aren't you speculating as to the intent of his actions at that point? It seems more straight forward that if we were to take such actions at face value, without imposing our own speculations onto the person's motives, that a person who Sieg Heils twice to a crowd of people... is a Nazi. I do not view his vague arm motions as a zieg heil celebrating Hitler. The mainstream media looks like morons covering this silliness. I hang out with 87 bazillion Jews. I do not know a single one who takes Musk's arm motions as a threat. Not one. Jews do take the 'death to Israel, Death to the USA, Death to Canada' chants while burning a Canadian flag in Vancouver seriously though. I guess the strat is to poison the well with fake antisemitic threats so the real antisemitism is muted.
What is vague about it? It’s as specific as it gets in terms of gesturing.
Trump could drop his drawers and take a giant dump on the American flag at his inauguration and we’d still be begging the ‘why is the mainstream media mentioning this?’
|
On January 23 2025 04:35 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 02:40 oBlade wrote:On January 23 2025 02:01 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 00:54 Velr wrote:On January 23 2025 00:49 oBlade wrote:On January 22 2025 23:44 Zambrah wrote:On January 22 2025 21:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:On January 22 2025 20:57 Gorsameth wrote:On January 22 2025 20:50 Liquid`Drone wrote:
In my opinion we should use fascism rather than nazism because the nazi allegation is pretty easy to deflect through 'where are the concentration camps' or 'dude's been way more pro Israel than democrats are' or 'he was the first president in forever to not get involved in a new military conflict' whereas the potential 'where's the extreme nationalism' or 'where's the focus on a strong leader supposed to fix everything' or 'where's the autoritarian and anti-democratic tendencies' are pretty easy to answer. If they are openly doing nazi salutes im calling them fucking nazis I don't think arguing about whether the angle he extends his arm is more consistent with a nazi or a fascist salute is very productive. It can be either. Fascist is bad enough. Nah man, this is softening the language, when theyre flying Nazi salutes theyre Nazis, they're also fascists, but theyre choosing to do Nazi things and just calling them fascists is, in my mind, less harsh than calling them Nazis. Everyone knows what a Nazi is and that Nazi = Evil, but fascists are a little fuzzier, a little easier to talk people into liking. Elon Musk is a Nazi and anyone down with him Seig'ing the fuck out of that Heil like he did at the inauguration is also probably a fuckin' Nazi. Would that include the ADL and Jonathan Greenblatt as probable Nazis? They seemed to imply that he was awkwardly gesturing from enthusiasm, as you might expect an autistic person with a now older chubbier and less wieldy body to do. Perhaps it's yet another case of a long line of Judeo-Nazi apologism...? Yeah, all these authistic people constantly making accidental Nazi-Salutes are really getting on my nerves since quite some time. It just a nice showing of how much these organisations/people look after their own cushy positions over what's right. They could also just be wrong to be fair. Although it seems somewhat unlikely to me. Regardless, I think it’s pretty patently ridiculous to pull a ‘but the ADL said…’ on this occasion from folks who’ve mocked the ASL for calling out dog whistles and whatnot for years now. False negatives and false positives are fundamentally different errors. For the same reason you are hopefully more likely to criticize a doctor who gave antacids to someone complaining of chest pain and died of a heart attack, than you are to criticize a doctor who gave a patient a blood test, EKG, ultrasound, MRI, and angiogram who ended up only having heartburn. The mechanics of the selective invocation of the ADL you want to get at are more than the possible gotcha you are otherwise right to be initially skeptical about. There is no risk to the ADL, who created themselves to police antisemitism, calling an inanimate green frog an antisemitic hate symbol. It's not going to sue them for defamation and it's not going to have any negative consequences - it's safe. When you get a self-described pro-semite doing an apparent LITERAL Nazi salute, you'd think it would be the perfect opportunity to nail him to the wall, so to speak. Rather, they were extra careful to get it right this time. The deeper issue is that this part of the left cannot sincerely use the moral gravity of Nazism to criticize a political faction made up of alleged fascists who are all... Israel supporters, Zionists, Jewish, or all of the above (or indeed whose defenders are any or all of the above as in the ADL's case), when the left has rabid antisemitism. Antisemitism is fundamental to every iteration of Nazism. Calling supporters of Israel Nazi is as laugh-out-of-the-roomable as calling Hitler Jewish. It is a painful category mistake. In fact it's so absurd that I can only picture it as a bar insult among opposite aisle bigots. Like a skinhead saying to a guy Netanyahu is a Nazi and then him responding oh yeah? well Hitler loved Israel and ate matzo balls every day. And both of their faces turning red and going "you take that back." What Drone is correct on for reasons of basic decorum, is actually also correct in basic facts. ‘Is Elon Musk a Nazi?’ is a fundamentally different question from ‘did Elon Musk do a Nazi salute, and if so, why?’ For me it’s no, yes, and trolling/shitposting rather than some admiration for Nazism.
That was my interpretation too. Indefensible shit anyway.
|
On January 23 2025 04:35 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 02:40 oBlade wrote:On January 23 2025 02:01 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 00:54 Velr wrote:On January 23 2025 00:49 oBlade wrote:On January 22 2025 23:44 Zambrah wrote:On January 22 2025 21:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:On January 22 2025 20:57 Gorsameth wrote:On January 22 2025 20:50 Liquid`Drone wrote:
In my opinion we should use fascism rather than nazism because the nazi allegation is pretty easy to deflect through 'where are the concentration camps' or 'dude's been way more pro Israel than democrats are' or 'he was the first president in forever to not get involved in a new military conflict' whereas the potential 'where's the extreme nationalism' or 'where's the focus on a strong leader supposed to fix everything' or 'where's the autoritarian and anti-democratic tendencies' are pretty easy to answer. If they are openly doing nazi salutes im calling them fucking nazis I don't think arguing about whether the angle he extends his arm is more consistent with a nazi or a fascist salute is very productive. It can be either. Fascist is bad enough. Nah man, this is softening the language, when theyre flying Nazi salutes theyre Nazis, they're also fascists, but theyre choosing to do Nazi things and just calling them fascists is, in my mind, less harsh than calling them Nazis. Everyone knows what a Nazi is and that Nazi = Evil, but fascists are a little fuzzier, a little easier to talk people into liking. Elon Musk is a Nazi and anyone down with him Seig'ing the fuck out of that Heil like he did at the inauguration is also probably a fuckin' Nazi. Would that include the ADL and Jonathan Greenblatt as probable Nazis? They seemed to imply that he was awkwardly gesturing from enthusiasm, as you might expect an autistic person with a now older chubbier and less wieldy body to do. Perhaps it's yet another case of a long line of Judeo-Nazi apologism...? Yeah, all these authistic people constantly making accidental Nazi-Salutes are really getting on my nerves since quite some time. It just a nice showing of how much these organisations/people look after their own cushy positions over what's right. They could also just be wrong to be fair. Although it seems somewhat unlikely to me. Regardless, I think it’s pretty patently ridiculous to pull a ‘but the ADL said…’ on this occasion from folks who’ve mocked the ASL for calling out dog whistles and whatnot for years now. False negatives and false positives are fundamentally different errors. For the same reason you are hopefully more likely to criticize a doctor who gave antacids to someone complaining of chest pain and died of a heart attack, than you are to criticize a doctor who gave a patient a blood test, EKG, ultrasound, MRI, and angiogram who ended up only having heartburn. The mechanics of the selective invocation of the ADL you want to get at are more than the possible gotcha you are otherwise right to be initially skeptical about. There is no risk to the ADL, who created themselves to police antisemitism, calling an inanimate green frog an antisemitic hate symbol. It's not going to sue them for defamation and it's not going to have any negative consequences - it's safe. When you get a self-described pro-semite doing an apparent LITERAL Nazi salute, you'd think it would be the perfect opportunity to nail him to the wall, so to speak. Rather, they were extra careful to get it right this time. The deeper issue is that this part of the left cannot sincerely use the moral gravity of Nazism to criticize a political faction made up of alleged fascists who are all... Israel supporters, Zionists, Jewish, or all of the above (or indeed whose defenders are any or all of the above as in the ADL's case), when the left has rabid antisemitism. Antisemitism is fundamental to every iteration of Nazism. Calling supporters of Israel Nazi is as laugh-out-of-the-roomable as calling Hitler Jewish. It is a painful category mistake. In fact it's so absurd that I can only picture it as a bar insult among opposite aisle bigots. Like a skinhead saying to a guy Netanyahu is a Nazi and then him responding oh yeah? well Hitler loved Israel and ate matzo balls every day. And both of their faces turning red and going "you take that back." What Drone is correct on for reasons of basic decorum, is actually also correct in basic facts. ‘Is Elon Musk a Nazi?’ is a fundamentally different question from ‘did Elon Musk do a Nazi salute, and if so, why?’ For me it’s no, yes, and trolling/shitposting rather than some admiration for Nazism.
This was/is exactly my thoughts on it too.
I think he did it for the "lulz" (I just realized this term died out years and years ago)
|
On January 23 2025 06:30 Zambrah wrote:
Cant wait for Democrats to get back in power and show us all how hard it is to do things again
Yeah, Democrats as a party aren't going to do shit but collaborate with fascist Republicans when they think it suits them. Makes them worse than worthless for staving off fascism.
It's going to hit everyone at different times, but people are going to have to decide who they are and what kind of country they are going to live in.
Trump is going to start snatching up kids at schools and putting them in concentration camps.
fears intensified for some when the Trump administration announced Tuesday it would allow federal immigration agencies to make arrests at schools, churches and hospitals
apnews.com
Are Democrat voters like DPB going to collaborate or risk breaking the law to protect their students? Same for doctors, nurses, priests, pastors, rabbis, etc.
Those are some immediate and obvious examples, but it's not just going to be the teachers, doctors, and religious leaders deciding if they will collaborate with fascists or resist them. All of us our going to be presented with our own moments and choices.
|
Given how JD Vance has all but disappeared since Election Day and has basically had his secondary limelight (after Trump) replaced by Elon Musk, I'm extremely thankful that Musk wasn't born in the United States. If Musk were eligible to become president, then I would think he'd have a seriously good shot at winning the next Republican presidential primary (if he wanted to run).
|
On January 23 2025 06:48 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 06:20 ghrur wrote:On January 23 2025 05:51 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 05:30 Gorsameth wrote:On January 23 2025 05:24 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 04:44 hexhaven wrote:On January 23 2025 04:35 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 02:40 oBlade wrote:On January 23 2025 02:01 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 00:54 Velr wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, all these authistic people constantly making accidental Nazi-Salutes are really getting on my nerves since quite some time.
It just a nice showing of how much these organisations/people look after their own cushy positions over what's right. They could also just be wrong to be fair. Although it seems somewhat unlikely to me. Regardless, I think it’s pretty patently ridiculous to pull a ‘but the ADL said…’ on this occasion from folks who’ve mocked the ASL for calling out dog whistles and whatnot for years now. False negatives and false positives are fundamentally different errors. For the same reason you are hopefully more likely to criticize a doctor who gave antacids to someone complaining of chest pain and died of a heart attack, than you are to criticize a doctor who gave a patient a blood test, EKG, ultrasound, MRI, and angiogram who ended up only having heartburn. The mechanics of the selective invocation of the ADL you want to get at are more than the possible gotcha you are otherwise right to be initially skeptical about. There is no risk to the ADL, who created themselves to police antisemitism, calling an inanimate green frog an antisemitic hate symbol. It's not going to sue them for defamation and it's not going to have any negative consequences - it's safe. When you get a self-described pro-semite doing an apparent LITERAL Nazi salute, you'd think it would be the perfect opportunity to nail him to the wall, so to speak. Rather, they were extra careful to get it right this time. The deeper issue is that this part of the left cannot sincerely use the moral gravity of Nazism to criticize a political faction made up of alleged fascists who are all... Israel supporters, Zionists, Jewish, or all of the above (or indeed whose defenders are any or all of the above as in the ADL's case), when the left has rabid antisemitism. Antisemitism is fundamental to every iteration of Nazism. Calling supporters of Israel Nazi is as laugh-out-of-the-roomable as calling Hitler Jewish. It is a painful category mistake. In fact it's so absurd that I can only picture it as a bar insult among opposite aisle bigots. Like a skinhead saying to a guy Netanyahu is a Nazi and then him responding oh yeah? well Hitler loved Israel and ate matzo balls every day. And both of their faces turning red and going "you take that back." What Drone is correct on for reasons of basic decorum, is actually also correct in basic facts. ‘Is Elon Musk a Nazi?’ is a fundamentally different question from ‘did Elon Musk do a Nazi salute, and if so, why?’ For me it’s no, yes, and trolling/shitposting rather than some admiration for Nazism. If the ADL feel unable to call what very much looks like a spade, a spade for worrying of litigation that in and of itself is problematic if that read is the case. You can’t say something like ‘While it may have been unintentional, we remind public figures to avoid gestures that may be construed in this manner.’? I studiously avoid the whole ‘Nazi’ charge for the reasons outlined, or as Drone has said. Not that specificity of political affiliation is a great strength of our collective discourse. Those darn socialists and Communists who are one degree left of Margaret Thatcher! Musk has been openly supporting antisemitic parties in various parts of Europe. He’s an utterly repellent piece of shit and a Fascist-enabler, I just don’t think he’s personally a full card-carrying Nazi is all. he regularly retweets nazi propaganda and has now openly done 2 very obvious nazi salutes. I'm curious what it takes for you if that is not enough. He isn't just letting them do their thing on twitter, he is actively promoting them. Being a Nazi I suppose? It doesn’t make him any less dangerous, functionally appeasing a bunch of Neo-Nazis is the pertinent problem, it doesn’t make much difference whether it’s out of self-interested pragmatism or being a true believer, you’re still appeasing Nazis. There’s probably a parallel universe where Trump is beloved darling of the left of the country and conservatives hate him. It’s a useful vector for power, albeit unlike Trump I think Musk does believe some of his shtick. But no to the degree I’d label him a Nazi, increasingly far right leaning Fascist, sure. But aren't you speculating as to the intent of his actions at that point? It seems more straight forward that if we were to take such actions at face value, without imposing our own speculations onto the person's motives, that a person who Sieg Heils twice to a crowd of people... is a Nazi. I do not view his vague arm motions as a zieg heil celebrating Hitler. The mainstream media looks like morons covering this silliness. I hang out with 87 bazillion Jews. I do not know a single one who takes Musk's arm motions as a threat. Not one. Jews do take the 'death to Israel, Death to the USA, Death to Canada' chants while burning a Canadian flag in Vancouver seriously though. I guess the strat is to poison the well with fake antisemitic threats so the real antisemitism is muted.
Indeed, so very vague:
https://www.reddit.com/r/gifs/comments/1i6v521/for_those_not_convinced_heres_proof_from_a_neonazi/
|
United States41938 Posts
On January 23 2025 07:21 blomsterjohn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 04:35 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 02:40 oBlade wrote:On January 23 2025 02:01 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 00:54 Velr wrote:On January 23 2025 00:49 oBlade wrote:On January 22 2025 23:44 Zambrah wrote:On January 22 2025 21:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:On January 22 2025 20:57 Gorsameth wrote:On January 22 2025 20:50 Liquid`Drone wrote:
In my opinion we should use fascism rather than nazism because the nazi allegation is pretty easy to deflect through 'where are the concentration camps' or 'dude's been way more pro Israel than democrats are' or 'he was the first president in forever to not get involved in a new military conflict' whereas the potential 'where's the extreme nationalism' or 'where's the focus on a strong leader supposed to fix everything' or 'where's the autoritarian and anti-democratic tendencies' are pretty easy to answer. If they are openly doing nazi salutes im calling them fucking nazis I don't think arguing about whether the angle he extends his arm is more consistent with a nazi or a fascist salute is very productive. It can be either. Fascist is bad enough. Nah man, this is softening the language, when theyre flying Nazi salutes theyre Nazis, they're also fascists, but theyre choosing to do Nazi things and just calling them fascists is, in my mind, less harsh than calling them Nazis. Everyone knows what a Nazi is and that Nazi = Evil, but fascists are a little fuzzier, a little easier to talk people into liking. Elon Musk is a Nazi and anyone down with him Seig'ing the fuck out of that Heil like he did at the inauguration is also probably a fuckin' Nazi. Would that include the ADL and Jonathan Greenblatt as probable Nazis? They seemed to imply that he was awkwardly gesturing from enthusiasm, as you might expect an autistic person with a now older chubbier and less wieldy body to do. Perhaps it's yet another case of a long line of Judeo-Nazi apologism...? Yeah, all these authistic people constantly making accidental Nazi-Salutes are really getting on my nerves since quite some time. It just a nice showing of how much these organisations/people look after their own cushy positions over what's right. They could also just be wrong to be fair. Although it seems somewhat unlikely to me. Regardless, I think it’s pretty patently ridiculous to pull a ‘but the ADL said…’ on this occasion from folks who’ve mocked the ASL for calling out dog whistles and whatnot for years now. False negatives and false positives are fundamentally different errors. For the same reason you are hopefully more likely to criticize a doctor who gave antacids to someone complaining of chest pain and died of a heart attack, than you are to criticize a doctor who gave a patient a blood test, EKG, ultrasound, MRI, and angiogram who ended up only having heartburn. The mechanics of the selective invocation of the ADL you want to get at are more than the possible gotcha you are otherwise right to be initially skeptical about. There is no risk to the ADL, who created themselves to police antisemitism, calling an inanimate green frog an antisemitic hate symbol. It's not going to sue them for defamation and it's not going to have any negative consequences - it's safe. When you get a self-described pro-semite doing an apparent LITERAL Nazi salute, you'd think it would be the perfect opportunity to nail him to the wall, so to speak. Rather, they were extra careful to get it right this time. The deeper issue is that this part of the left cannot sincerely use the moral gravity of Nazism to criticize a political faction made up of alleged fascists who are all... Israel supporters, Zionists, Jewish, or all of the above (or indeed whose defenders are any or all of the above as in the ADL's case), when the left has rabid antisemitism. Antisemitism is fundamental to every iteration of Nazism. Calling supporters of Israel Nazi is as laugh-out-of-the-roomable as calling Hitler Jewish. It is a painful category mistake. In fact it's so absurd that I can only picture it as a bar insult among opposite aisle bigots. Like a skinhead saying to a guy Netanyahu is a Nazi and then him responding oh yeah? well Hitler loved Israel and ate matzo balls every day. And both of their faces turning red and going "you take that back." What Drone is correct on for reasons of basic decorum, is actually also correct in basic facts. ‘Is Elon Musk a Nazi?’ is a fundamentally different question from ‘did Elon Musk do a Nazi salute, and if so, why?’ For me it’s no, yes, and trolling/shitposting rather than some admiration for Nazism. This was/is exactly my thoughts on it too. I think he did it for the "lulz" (I just realized this term died out years and years ago)
And yet his trolling is ideologically consistent. Not once has he trolled America by proposing that the workers seize the means of production. He just trolls America by suggesting that the dirty blood of immigrants represents an existential threat to the volk.
|
On January 23 2025 07:22 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 06:30 Zambrah wrote:
Cant wait for Democrats to get back in power and show us all how hard it is to do things again Yeah, Democrats as a party aren't going to do shit but collaborate with fascist Republicans when they think it suits them. Makes them worse than worthless for staving off fascism. It's going to hit everyone at different times, but people are going to have to decide who they are and what kind of country they are going to live in. Trump is going to start snatching up kids at schools and putting them in concentration camps. Show nested quote +fears intensified for some when the Trump administration announced Tuesday it would allow federal immigration agencies to make arrests at schools, churches and hospitals apnews.comAre Democrat voters like DPB going to collaborate or risk breaking the law to protect their students? Same for doctors, nurses, priests, pastors, rabbis, etc. Those are some immediate and obvious examples, but it's not just going to be the teachers, doctors, and religious leaders deciding if they will collaborate with fascists or resist them. All of us our going to be presented with our own moments and choices.
Why do you care about fascism in the USA? You're completely fine with it when it happens in places like Russia or China :D
|
On January 23 2025 07:33 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 07:22 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 06:30 Zambrah wrote:
Cant wait for Democrats to get back in power and show us all how hard it is to do things again Yeah, Democrats as a party aren't going to do shit but collaborate with fascist Republicans when they think it suits them. Makes them worse than worthless for staving off fascism. It's going to hit everyone at different times, but people are going to have to decide who they are and what kind of country they are going to live in. Trump is going to start snatching up kids at schools and putting them in concentration camps. fears intensified for some when the Trump administration announced Tuesday it would allow federal immigration agencies to make arrests at schools, churches and hospitals apnews.comAre Democrat voters like DPB going to collaborate or risk breaking the law to protect their students? Same for doctors, nurses, priests, pastors, rabbis, etc. Those are some immediate and obvious examples, but it's not just going to be the teachers, doctors, and religious leaders deciding if they will collaborate with fascists or resist them. All of us our going to be presented with our own moments and choices. Why do you care about fascism in the USA? You're completely fine with it when it happens in places like Russia or China :D
Not only that, but he's been shitting on the Democrats for years, doing his best to discourage people from voting for them.
|
On January 23 2025 07:36 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 07:33 Luolis wrote:On January 23 2025 07:22 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 06:30 Zambrah wrote:
Cant wait for Democrats to get back in power and show us all how hard it is to do things again Yeah, Democrats as a party aren't going to do shit but collaborate with fascist Republicans when they think it suits them. Makes them worse than worthless for staving off fascism. It's going to hit everyone at different times, but people are going to have to decide who they are and what kind of country they are going to live in. Trump is going to start snatching up kids at schools and putting them in concentration camps. fears intensified for some when the Trump administration announced Tuesday it would allow federal immigration agencies to make arrests at schools, churches and hospitals apnews.comAre Democrat voters like DPB going to collaborate or risk breaking the law to protect their students? Same for doctors, nurses, priests, pastors, rabbis, etc. Those are some immediate and obvious examples, but it's not just going to be the teachers, doctors, and religious leaders deciding if they will collaborate with fascists or resist them. All of us our going to be presented with our own moments and choices. Why do you care about fascism in the USA? You're completely fine with it when it happens in places like Russia or China :D Not only that, but he's been shitting on the Democrats for years, doing his best to discourage people from voting for them.
They were the jackasses that insisted on running Biden and losing to fascism/Trump. My bad for telling people why that was maliciously stupid and put us all at risk. lmao
|
On January 23 2025 07:22 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 06:30 Zambrah wrote:
Cant wait for Democrats to get back in power and show us all how hard it is to do things again Yeah, Democrats as a party aren't going to do shit but collaborate with fascist Republicans when they think it suits them. Makes them worse than worthless for staving off fascism. It's going to hit everyone at different times, but people are going to have to decide who they are and what kind of country they are going to live in. Trump is going to start snatching up kids at schools and putting them in concentration camps. Show nested quote +fears intensified for some when the Trump administration announced Tuesday it would allow federal immigration agencies to make arrests at schools, churches and hospitals apnews.comAre Democrat voters like DPB going to collaborate or risk breaking the law to protect their students? Same for doctors, nurses, priests, pastors, rabbis, etc. Those are some immediate and obvious examples, but it's not just going to be the teachers, doctors, and religious leaders deciding if they will collaborate with fascists or resist them. All of us our going to be presented with our own moments and choices.
I can only speak for myself and my circumstances: I am not privy to any information regarding my students' immigration/legal status. If something like this were to hypothetically play out in my public school, it wouldn't be a federal immigration agent barging into my personal classroom and fighting me to steal my student.
A few times each week, my classroom phone will ring, and it'll be an administrator or secretary just asking me to pass on a message to a student, or asking me to tell the student to head over to a specific classroom or office, or something else that's not a big deal. Check in with attendance, pick up an item that was just dropped off by a parent, etc. Half the time, the caller doesn't even give me all the details. If a student was going to be permanently removed from school for whatever reason, that would be a conversation held by people way above my pay grade, and I would have no idea it was taking place.
|
On January 23 2025 07:22 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 06:30 Zambrah wrote:
Cant wait for Democrats to get back in power and show us all how hard it is to do things again Yeah, Democrats as a party aren't going to do shit but collaborate with fascist Republicans when they think it suits them. Makes them worse than worthless for staving off fascism. It's going to hit everyone at different times, but people are going to have to decide who they are and what kind of country they are going to live in. Trump is going to start snatching up kids at schools and putting them in concentration camps. Show nested quote +fears intensified for some when the Trump administration announced Tuesday it would allow federal immigration agencies to make arrests at schools, churches and hospitals apnews.comAre Democrat voters like DPB going to collaborate or risk breaking the law to protect their students? Same for doctors, nurses, priests, pastors, rabbis, etc. Those are some immediate and obvious examples, but it's not just going to be the teachers, doctors, and religious leaders deciding if they will collaborate with fascists or resist them. All of us our going to be presented with our own moments and choices.
Considering Obama has the record for most deportations and he notoriously locked kids in cages I'm guessing they will go along with it. Assuming of course the premise that enforcing immigration law is akin to nazism and ICE detention centers amount to concentration camps.
|
On January 23 2025 06:48 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 06:20 ghrur wrote:On January 23 2025 05:51 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 05:30 Gorsameth wrote:On January 23 2025 05:24 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 04:44 hexhaven wrote:On January 23 2025 04:35 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 02:40 oBlade wrote:On January 23 2025 02:01 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 00:54 Velr wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, all these authistic people constantly making accidental Nazi-Salutes are really getting on my nerves since quite some time.
It just a nice showing of how much these organisations/people look after their own cushy positions over what's right. They could also just be wrong to be fair. Although it seems somewhat unlikely to me. Regardless, I think it’s pretty patently ridiculous to pull a ‘but the ADL said…’ on this occasion from folks who’ve mocked the ASL for calling out dog whistles and whatnot for years now. False negatives and false positives are fundamentally different errors. For the same reason you are hopefully more likely to criticize a doctor who gave antacids to someone complaining of chest pain and died of a heart attack, than you are to criticize a doctor who gave a patient a blood test, EKG, ultrasound, MRI, and angiogram who ended up only having heartburn. The mechanics of the selective invocation of the ADL you want to get at are more than the possible gotcha you are otherwise right to be initially skeptical about. There is no risk to the ADL, who created themselves to police antisemitism, calling an inanimate green frog an antisemitic hate symbol. It's not going to sue them for defamation and it's not going to have any negative consequences - it's safe. When you get a self-described pro-semite doing an apparent LITERAL Nazi salute, you'd think it would be the perfect opportunity to nail him to the wall, so to speak. Rather, they were extra careful to get it right this time. The deeper issue is that this part of the left cannot sincerely use the moral gravity of Nazism to criticize a political faction made up of alleged fascists who are all... Israel supporters, Zionists, Jewish, or all of the above (or indeed whose defenders are any or all of the above as in the ADL's case), when the left has rabid antisemitism. Antisemitism is fundamental to every iteration of Nazism. Calling supporters of Israel Nazi is as laugh-out-of-the-roomable as calling Hitler Jewish. It is a painful category mistake. In fact it's so absurd that I can only picture it as a bar insult among opposite aisle bigots. Like a skinhead saying to a guy Netanyahu is a Nazi and then him responding oh yeah? well Hitler loved Israel and ate matzo balls every day. And both of their faces turning red and going "you take that back." What Drone is correct on for reasons of basic decorum, is actually also correct in basic facts. ‘Is Elon Musk a Nazi?’ is a fundamentally different question from ‘did Elon Musk do a Nazi salute, and if so, why?’ For me it’s no, yes, and trolling/shitposting rather than some admiration for Nazism. If the ADL feel unable to call what very much looks like a spade, a spade for worrying of litigation that in and of itself is problematic if that read is the case. You can’t say something like ‘While it may have been unintentional, we remind public figures to avoid gestures that may be construed in this manner.’? I studiously avoid the whole ‘Nazi’ charge for the reasons outlined, or as Drone has said. Not that specificity of political affiliation is a great strength of our collective discourse. Those darn socialists and Communists who are one degree left of Margaret Thatcher! Musk has been openly supporting antisemitic parties in various parts of Europe. He’s an utterly repellent piece of shit and a Fascist-enabler, I just don’t think he’s personally a full card-carrying Nazi is all. he regularly retweets nazi propaganda and has now openly done 2 very obvious nazi salutes. I'm curious what it takes for you if that is not enough. He isn't just letting them do their thing on twitter, he is actively promoting them. Being a Nazi I suppose? It doesn’t make him any less dangerous, functionally appeasing a bunch of Neo-Nazis is the pertinent problem, it doesn’t make much difference whether it’s out of self-interested pragmatism or being a true believer, you’re still appeasing Nazis. There’s probably a parallel universe where Trump is beloved darling of the left of the country and conservatives hate him. It’s a useful vector for power, albeit unlike Trump I think Musk does believe some of his shtick. But no to the degree I’d label him a Nazi, increasingly far right leaning Fascist, sure. But aren't you speculating as to the intent of his actions at that point? It seems more straight forward that if we were to take such actions at face value, without imposing our own speculations onto the person's motives, that a person who Sieg Heils twice to a crowd of people... is a Nazi. I do not view his vague arm motions as a zieg heil celebrating Hitler. The mainstream media looks like morons covering this silliness. I hang out with 87 bazillion Jews. I do not know a single one who takes Musk's arm motions as a threat. Not one. Jews do take the 'death to Israel, Death to the USA, Death to Canada' chants while burning a Canadian flag in Vancouver seriously though. I guess the strat is to poison the well with fake antisemitic threats so the real antisemitism is muted. ![[image loading]](https://giphy.com/gifs/elon-2A5fJIO5ilutoHCzdB)
giphy.com
Your right, so vague. could be literally anything...
On the bright side this has been a wonderful coming out for all sorts of nazi's. They just can't help but feel the need to defend their blood brother.
|
On January 23 2025 07:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 07:22 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 06:30 Zambrah wrote:
Cant wait for Democrats to get back in power and show us all how hard it is to do things again Yeah, Democrats as a party aren't going to do shit but collaborate with fascist Republicans when they think it suits them. Makes them worse than worthless for staving off fascism. It's going to hit everyone at different times, but people are going to have to decide who they are and what kind of country they are going to live in. Trump is going to start snatching up kids at schools and putting them in concentration camps. fears intensified for some when the Trump administration announced Tuesday it would allow federal immigration agencies to make arrests at schools, churches and hospitals apnews.comAre Democrat voters like DPB going to collaborate or risk breaking the law to protect their students? Same for doctors, nurses, priests, pastors, rabbis, etc. Those are some immediate and obvious examples, but it's not just going to be the teachers, doctors, and religious leaders deciding if they will collaborate with fascists or resist them. All of us our going to be presented with our own moments and choices. I can only speak for myself and my circumstances: I am not privy to any information regarding my students' immigration/legal status. If something like this were to hypothetically play out in my public school, it wouldn't be a federal immigration agent barging into my personal classroom and fighting me to steal my student. A few times each week, my classroom phone will ring, and it'll be an administrator or secretary just asking me to pass on a message to a student, or asking me to tell the student to head over to a specific classroom or office, or something else that's not a big deal. Check in with attendance, pick up an item that was just dropped off by a parent, etc. Half the time, the caller doesn't even give me all the details. If a student was going to be permanently removed from school for whatever reason, that would be a conversation held by people way above my pay grade, and I would have no idea it was taking place.
It might be. Maybe the person that makes that call refuses and the goons go to classroom. Or maybe they call you and instead of telling you to send the kid they tell you to warn them. Maybe you need to be working on a code with your fellow teachers/admins right now for if Trump's goons show up at your school.
We're not going to be able to hide behind stuff like "above my paygrade" and "I had no idea" any better than Nazi collaborators did. Going to have to do better than that.
|
On January 23 2025 07:28 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 07:21 blomsterjohn wrote:On January 23 2025 04:35 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 02:40 oBlade wrote:On January 23 2025 02:01 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 00:54 Velr wrote:On January 23 2025 00:49 oBlade wrote:On January 22 2025 23:44 Zambrah wrote:On January 22 2025 21:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:On January 22 2025 20:57 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]If they are openly doing nazi salutes im calling them fucking nazis
I don't think arguing about whether the angle he extends his arm is more consistent with a nazi or a fascist salute is very productive. It can be either. Fascist is bad enough. Nah man, this is softening the language, when theyre flying Nazi salutes theyre Nazis, they're also fascists, but theyre choosing to do Nazi things and just calling them fascists is, in my mind, less harsh than calling them Nazis. Everyone knows what a Nazi is and that Nazi = Evil, but fascists are a little fuzzier, a little easier to talk people into liking. Elon Musk is a Nazi and anyone down with him Seig'ing the fuck out of that Heil like he did at the inauguration is also probably a fuckin' Nazi. Would that include the ADL and Jonathan Greenblatt as probable Nazis? They seemed to imply that he was awkwardly gesturing from enthusiasm, as you might expect an autistic person with a now older chubbier and less wieldy body to do. Perhaps it's yet another case of a long line of Judeo-Nazi apologism...? Yeah, all these authistic people constantly making accidental Nazi-Salutes are really getting on my nerves since quite some time. It just a nice showing of how much these organisations/people look after their own cushy positions over what's right. They could also just be wrong to be fair. Although it seems somewhat unlikely to me. Regardless, I think it’s pretty patently ridiculous to pull a ‘but the ADL said…’ on this occasion from folks who’ve mocked the ASL for calling out dog whistles and whatnot for years now. False negatives and false positives are fundamentally different errors. For the same reason you are hopefully more likely to criticize a doctor who gave antacids to someone complaining of chest pain and died of a heart attack, than you are to criticize a doctor who gave a patient a blood test, EKG, ultrasound, MRI, and angiogram who ended up only having heartburn. The mechanics of the selective invocation of the ADL you want to get at are more than the possible gotcha you are otherwise right to be initially skeptical about. There is no risk to the ADL, who created themselves to police antisemitism, calling an inanimate green frog an antisemitic hate symbol. It's not going to sue them for defamation and it's not going to have any negative consequences - it's safe. When you get a self-described pro-semite doing an apparent LITERAL Nazi salute, you'd think it would be the perfect opportunity to nail him to the wall, so to speak. Rather, they were extra careful to get it right this time. The deeper issue is that this part of the left cannot sincerely use the moral gravity of Nazism to criticize a political faction made up of alleged fascists who are all... Israel supporters, Zionists, Jewish, or all of the above (or indeed whose defenders are any or all of the above as in the ADL's case), when the left has rabid antisemitism. Antisemitism is fundamental to every iteration of Nazism. Calling supporters of Israel Nazi is as laugh-out-of-the-roomable as calling Hitler Jewish. It is a painful category mistake. In fact it's so absurd that I can only picture it as a bar insult among opposite aisle bigots. Like a skinhead saying to a guy Netanyahu is a Nazi and then him responding oh yeah? well Hitler loved Israel and ate matzo balls every day. And both of their faces turning red and going "you take that back." What Drone is correct on for reasons of basic decorum, is actually also correct in basic facts. ‘Is Elon Musk a Nazi?’ is a fundamentally different question from ‘did Elon Musk do a Nazi salute, and if so, why?’ For me it’s no, yes, and trolling/shitposting rather than some admiration for Nazism. This was/is exactly my thoughts on it too. I think he did it for the "lulz" (I just realized this term died out years and years ago) And yet his trolling is ideologically consistent. Not once has he trolled America by proposing that the workers seize the means of production. He just trolls America by suggesting that the dirty blood of immigrants represents an existential threat to the volk.
Yeah there is that. I have a hard time finding the right words tbh, but I kinda see it as this internet rabbit-hole radicalized outrage mindset more than...apart of a political grouping (closest I got to something that hopefully makes sense)
|
"How many fingers am I holding up, Winston?"
It is a Nazi salute, there's no debating it. The reason why some Americans are denying it is because they are in support of Nazis and that makes them experience a powerful cognitive dissonance. Denial is the only option to relieve themselves of that painful sensation.
The more important question is why some of those who don't support Nazis are also denying it, such as the ADL.
|
On January 23 2025 07:51 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 07:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2025 07:22 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 06:30 Zambrah wrote:
Cant wait for Democrats to get back in power and show us all how hard it is to do things again Yeah, Democrats as a party aren't going to do shit but collaborate with fascist Republicans when they think it suits them. Makes them worse than worthless for staving off fascism. It's going to hit everyone at different times, but people are going to have to decide who they are and what kind of country they are going to live in. Trump is going to start snatching up kids at schools and putting them in concentration camps. fears intensified for some when the Trump administration announced Tuesday it would allow federal immigration agencies to make arrests at schools, churches and hospitals apnews.comAre Democrat voters like DPB going to collaborate or risk breaking the law to protect their students? Same for doctors, nurses, priests, pastors, rabbis, etc. Those are some immediate and obvious examples, but it's not just going to be the teachers, doctors, and religious leaders deciding if they will collaborate with fascists or resist them. All of us our going to be presented with our own moments and choices. I can only speak for myself and my circumstances: I am not privy to any information regarding my students' immigration/legal status. If something like this were to hypothetically play out in my public school, it wouldn't be a federal immigration agent barging into my personal classroom and fighting me to steal my student. A few times each week, my classroom phone will ring, and it'll be an administrator or secretary just asking me to pass on a message to a student, or asking me to tell the student to head over to a specific classroom or office, or something else that's not a big deal. Check in with attendance, pick up an item that was just dropped off by a parent, etc. Half the time, the caller doesn't even give me all the details. If a student was going to be permanently removed from school for whatever reason, that would be a conversation held by people way above my pay grade, and I would have no idea it was taking place. It might be. Maybe the person that makes that call refuses and the goons go to classroom. Or maybe they call you and instead of telling you to send the kid they tell you to warn them. Maybe you need to be working on a code with your fellow teachers/admins right now for if Trump's goons show up at your school. We're not going to be able to hide behind stuff like "above my paygrade" and "I had no idea" any better than Nazi collaborators did. Going to have to do better than that.
I'm sorry but that's not how schools work lol. My school is locked, so non-students and non-employees can't enter without permission / appointment / giving the administration a heads up. Even if the agents were allowed in, but then somehow the school personnel "that makes that call refuses" and changes their minds, the agents aren't going to know where to go (good luck randomly searching hundreds of classrooms) and the school personnel would call for an immediate lockdown of all classrooms anyway. That's precisely what our monthly emergency drills are for: in case of an unwelcome intruder. And if school personnel secretly called me and told me to tell my student to run away (which, again, has 0% chance of ever happening), then of course I'd be happy to oblige and try to help the student escape safely. But none of this comports with reality; it's not even an interesting thought experiment because of how impossible it is.
|
Because the one driving force in america is "moar moneyzzzz".
Morals are out of the window since (at least) 2016, what we see now by the relection of Trump is just the absolute certainity of it. America celebrates success, no matter the cost.. What do you end with? Trump/Musk whatever. Its disgusting.
|
Northern Ireland23745 Posts
On January 23 2025 07:55 Magic Powers wrote:
"How many fingers am I holding up, Winston?"
It is a Nazi salute, there's no debating it. The reason why some Americans are denying it is because they are in support of Nazis and that makes them experience a powerful cognitive dissonance. Denial is the only option to relieve themselves of that painful sensation.
The more important question is why some of those who don't support Nazis are also denying it, such as the ADL.
There’s are four lights!
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
