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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On January 23 2025 03:37 Uldridge wrote:
The left's "antisemitism" stems from Israel's continuous oppression.
i thought the left's antisemitism sprung from ideological opposition to laissez-faire capitalist jews like Allen Greenspan and Ludvig Von Mises?
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Northern Ireland24965 Posts
On January 23 2025 02:40 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 02:01 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 00:54 Velr wrote:On January 23 2025 00:49 oBlade wrote:On January 22 2025 23:44 Zambrah wrote:On January 22 2025 21:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:On January 22 2025 20:57 Gorsameth wrote:On January 22 2025 20:50 Liquid`Drone wrote:
In my opinion we should use fascism rather than nazism because the nazi allegation is pretty easy to deflect through 'where are the concentration camps' or 'dude's been way more pro Israel than democrats are' or 'he was the first president in forever to not get involved in a new military conflict' whereas the potential 'where's the extreme nationalism' or 'where's the focus on a strong leader supposed to fix everything' or 'where's the autoritarian and anti-democratic tendencies' are pretty easy to answer. If they are openly doing nazi salutes im calling them fucking nazis I don't think arguing about whether the angle he extends his arm is more consistent with a nazi or a fascist salute is very productive. It can be either. Fascist is bad enough. Nah man, this is softening the language, when theyre flying Nazi salutes theyre Nazis, they're also fascists, but theyre choosing to do Nazi things and just calling them fascists is, in my mind, less harsh than calling them Nazis. Everyone knows what a Nazi is and that Nazi = Evil, but fascists are a little fuzzier, a little easier to talk people into liking. Elon Musk is a Nazi and anyone down with him Seig'ing the fuck out of that Heil like he did at the inauguration is also probably a fuckin' Nazi. Would that include the ADL and Jonathan Greenblatt as probable Nazis? They seemed to imply that he was awkwardly gesturing from enthusiasm, as you might expect an autistic person with a now older chubbier and less wieldy body to do. Perhaps it's yet another case of a long line of Judeo-Nazi apologism...? Yeah, all these authistic people constantly making accidental Nazi-Salutes are really getting on my nerves since quite some time. It just a nice showing of how much these organisations/people look after their own cushy positions over what's right. They could also just be wrong to be fair. Although it seems somewhat unlikely to me. Regardless, I think it’s pretty patently ridiculous to pull a ‘but the ADL said…’ on this occasion from folks who’ve mocked the ASL for calling out dog whistles and whatnot for years now. False negatives and false positives are fundamentally different errors. For the same reason you are hopefully more likely to criticize a doctor who gave antacids to someone complaining of chest pain and died of a heart attack, than you are to criticize a doctor who gave a patient a blood test, EKG, ultrasound, MRI, and angiogram who ended up only having heartburn. The mechanics of the selective invocation of the ADL you want to get at are more than the possible gotcha you are otherwise right to be initially skeptical about. There is no risk to the ADL, who created themselves to police antisemitism, calling an inanimate green frog an antisemitic hate symbol. It's not going to sue them for defamation and it's not going to have any negative consequences - it's safe. When you get a self-described pro-semite doing an apparent LITERAL Nazi salute, you'd think it would be the perfect opportunity to nail him to the wall, so to speak. Rather, they were extra careful to get it right this time. The deeper issue is that this part of the left cannot sincerely use the moral gravity of Nazism to criticize a political faction made up of alleged fascists who are all... Israel supporters, Zionists, Jewish, or all of the above (or indeed whose defenders are any or all of the above as in the ADL's case), when the left has rabid antisemitism. Antisemitism is fundamental to every iteration of Nazism. Calling supporters of Israel Nazi is as laugh-out-of-the-roomable as calling Hitler Jewish. It is a painful category mistake. In fact it's so absurd that I can only picture it as a bar insult among opposite aisle bigots. Like a skinhead saying to a guy Netanyahu is a Nazi and then him responding oh yeah? well Hitler loved Israel and ate matzo balls every day. And both of their faces turning red and going "you take that back." What Drone is correct on for reasons of basic decorum, is actually also correct in basic facts.
‘Is Elon Musk a Nazi?’ is a fundamentally different question from ‘did Elon Musk do a Nazi salute, and if so, why?’
For me it’s no, yes, and trolling/shitposting rather than some admiration for Nazism.
If the ADL feel unable to call what very much looks like a spade, a spade for worrying of litigation that in and of itself is problematic if that read is the case. You can’t say something like ‘While it may have been unintentional, we remind public figures to avoid gestures that may be construed in this manner.’?
I studiously avoid the whole ‘Nazi’ charge for the reasons outlined, or as Drone has said.
Not that specificity of political affiliation is a great strength of our collective discourse. Those darn socialists and Communists who are one degree left of Margaret Thatcher!
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You're talking about the same pro Palestinian, sometimes pro Hamas, anti Zionist.people? There are anough Jews doing different things to be antisemitic about, just like there are enough minority groups exclude some way or another.
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Finland929 Posts
On January 23 2025 04:35 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 02:40 oBlade wrote:On January 23 2025 02:01 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 00:54 Velr wrote:On January 23 2025 00:49 oBlade wrote:On January 22 2025 23:44 Zambrah wrote:On January 22 2025 21:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:On January 22 2025 20:57 Gorsameth wrote:On January 22 2025 20:50 Liquid`Drone wrote:
In my opinion we should use fascism rather than nazism because the nazi allegation is pretty easy to deflect through 'where are the concentration camps' or 'dude's been way more pro Israel than democrats are' or 'he was the first president in forever to not get involved in a new military conflict' whereas the potential 'where's the extreme nationalism' or 'where's the focus on a strong leader supposed to fix everything' or 'where's the autoritarian and anti-democratic tendencies' are pretty easy to answer. If they are openly doing nazi salutes im calling them fucking nazis I don't think arguing about whether the angle he extends his arm is more consistent with a nazi or a fascist salute is very productive. It can be either. Fascist is bad enough. Nah man, this is softening the language, when theyre flying Nazi salutes theyre Nazis, they're also fascists, but theyre choosing to do Nazi things and just calling them fascists is, in my mind, less harsh than calling them Nazis. Everyone knows what a Nazi is and that Nazi = Evil, but fascists are a little fuzzier, a little easier to talk people into liking. Elon Musk is a Nazi and anyone down with him Seig'ing the fuck out of that Heil like he did at the inauguration is also probably a fuckin' Nazi. Would that include the ADL and Jonathan Greenblatt as probable Nazis? They seemed to imply that he was awkwardly gesturing from enthusiasm, as you might expect an autistic person with a now older chubbier and less wieldy body to do. Perhaps it's yet another case of a long line of Judeo-Nazi apologism...? Yeah, all these authistic people constantly making accidental Nazi-Salutes are really getting on my nerves since quite some time. It just a nice showing of how much these organisations/people look after their own cushy positions over what's right. They could also just be wrong to be fair. Although it seems somewhat unlikely to me. Regardless, I think it’s pretty patently ridiculous to pull a ‘but the ADL said…’ on this occasion from folks who’ve mocked the ASL for calling out dog whistles and whatnot for years now. False negatives and false positives are fundamentally different errors. For the same reason you are hopefully more likely to criticize a doctor who gave antacids to someone complaining of chest pain and died of a heart attack, than you are to criticize a doctor who gave a patient a blood test, EKG, ultrasound, MRI, and angiogram who ended up only having heartburn. The mechanics of the selective invocation of the ADL you want to get at are more than the possible gotcha you are otherwise right to be initially skeptical about. There is no risk to the ADL, who created themselves to police antisemitism, calling an inanimate green frog an antisemitic hate symbol. It's not going to sue them for defamation and it's not going to have any negative consequences - it's safe. When you get a self-described pro-semite doing an apparent LITERAL Nazi salute, you'd think it would be the perfect opportunity to nail him to the wall, so to speak. Rather, they were extra careful to get it right this time. The deeper issue is that this part of the left cannot sincerely use the moral gravity of Nazism to criticize a political faction made up of alleged fascists who are all... Israel supporters, Zionists, Jewish, or all of the above (or indeed whose defenders are any or all of the above as in the ADL's case), when the left has rabid antisemitism. Antisemitism is fundamental to every iteration of Nazism. Calling supporters of Israel Nazi is as laugh-out-of-the-roomable as calling Hitler Jewish. It is a painful category mistake. In fact it's so absurd that I can only picture it as a bar insult among opposite aisle bigots. Like a skinhead saying to a guy Netanyahu is a Nazi and then him responding oh yeah? well Hitler loved Israel and ate matzo balls every day. And both of their faces turning red and going "you take that back." What Drone is correct on for reasons of basic decorum, is actually also correct in basic facts. ‘Is Elon Musk a Nazi?’ is a fundamentally different question from ‘did Elon Musk do a Nazi salute, and if so, why?’ For me it’s no, yes, and trolling/shitposting rather than some admiration for Nazism. If the ADL feel unable to call what very much looks like a spade, a spade for worrying of litigation that in and of itself is problematic if that read is the case. You can’t say something like ‘While it may have been unintentional, we remind public figures to avoid gestures that may be construed in this manner.’? I studiously avoid the whole ‘Nazi’ charge for the reasons outlined, or as Drone has said. Not that specificity of political affiliation is a great strength of our collective discourse. Those darn socialists and Communists who are one degree left of Margaret Thatcher!
Musk has been openly supporting antisemitic parties in various parts of Europe.
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United States42497 Posts
On January 23 2025 04:44 hexhaven wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 04:35 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 02:40 oBlade wrote:On January 23 2025 02:01 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 00:54 Velr wrote:On January 23 2025 00:49 oBlade wrote:On January 22 2025 23:44 Zambrah wrote:On January 22 2025 21:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:On January 22 2025 20:57 Gorsameth wrote:On January 22 2025 20:50 Liquid`Drone wrote:
In my opinion we should use fascism rather than nazism because the nazi allegation is pretty easy to deflect through 'where are the concentration camps' or 'dude's been way more pro Israel than democrats are' or 'he was the first president in forever to not get involved in a new military conflict' whereas the potential 'where's the extreme nationalism' or 'where's the focus on a strong leader supposed to fix everything' or 'where's the autoritarian and anti-democratic tendencies' are pretty easy to answer. If they are openly doing nazi salutes im calling them fucking nazis I don't think arguing about whether the angle he extends his arm is more consistent with a nazi or a fascist salute is very productive. It can be either. Fascist is bad enough. Nah man, this is softening the language, when theyre flying Nazi salutes theyre Nazis, they're also fascists, but theyre choosing to do Nazi things and just calling them fascists is, in my mind, less harsh than calling them Nazis. Everyone knows what a Nazi is and that Nazi = Evil, but fascists are a little fuzzier, a little easier to talk people into liking. Elon Musk is a Nazi and anyone down with him Seig'ing the fuck out of that Heil like he did at the inauguration is also probably a fuckin' Nazi. Would that include the ADL and Jonathan Greenblatt as probable Nazis? They seemed to imply that he was awkwardly gesturing from enthusiasm, as you might expect an autistic person with a now older chubbier and less wieldy body to do. Perhaps it's yet another case of a long line of Judeo-Nazi apologism...? Yeah, all these authistic people constantly making accidental Nazi-Salutes are really getting on my nerves since quite some time. It just a nice showing of how much these organisations/people look after their own cushy positions over what's right. They could also just be wrong to be fair. Although it seems somewhat unlikely to me. Regardless, I think it’s pretty patently ridiculous to pull a ‘but the ADL said…’ on this occasion from folks who’ve mocked the ASL for calling out dog whistles and whatnot for years now. False negatives and false positives are fundamentally different errors. For the same reason you are hopefully more likely to criticize a doctor who gave antacids to someone complaining of chest pain and died of a heart attack, than you are to criticize a doctor who gave a patient a blood test, EKG, ultrasound, MRI, and angiogram who ended up only having heartburn. The mechanics of the selective invocation of the ADL you want to get at are more than the possible gotcha you are otherwise right to be initially skeptical about. There is no risk to the ADL, who created themselves to police antisemitism, calling an inanimate green frog an antisemitic hate symbol. It's not going to sue them for defamation and it's not going to have any negative consequences - it's safe. When you get a self-described pro-semite doing an apparent LITERAL Nazi salute, you'd think it would be the perfect opportunity to nail him to the wall, so to speak. Rather, they were extra careful to get it right this time. The deeper issue is that this part of the left cannot sincerely use the moral gravity of Nazism to criticize a political faction made up of alleged fascists who are all... Israel supporters, Zionists, Jewish, or all of the above (or indeed whose defenders are any or all of the above as in the ADL's case), when the left has rabid antisemitism. Antisemitism is fundamental to every iteration of Nazism. Calling supporters of Israel Nazi is as laugh-out-of-the-roomable as calling Hitler Jewish. It is a painful category mistake. In fact it's so absurd that I can only picture it as a bar insult among opposite aisle bigots. Like a skinhead saying to a guy Netanyahu is a Nazi and then him responding oh yeah? well Hitler loved Israel and ate matzo balls every day. And both of their faces turning red and going "you take that back." What Drone is correct on for reasons of basic decorum, is actually also correct in basic facts. ‘Is Elon Musk a Nazi?’ is a fundamentally different question from ‘did Elon Musk do a Nazi salute, and if so, why?’ For me it’s no, yes, and trolling/shitposting rather than some admiration for Nazism. If the ADL feel unable to call what very much looks like a spade, a spade for worrying of litigation that in and of itself is problematic if that read is the case. You can’t say something like ‘While it may have been unintentional, we remind public figures to avoid gestures that may be construed in this manner.’? I studiously avoid the whole ‘Nazi’ charge for the reasons outlined, or as Drone has said. Not that specificity of political affiliation is a great strength of our collective discourse. Those darn socialists and Communists who are one degree left of Margaret Thatcher! Musk has been openly supporting antisemitic parties in various parts of Europe.
He's also been retweeting antisemitic conspiracy theories and great replacement neo Nazi propaganda.
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Northern Ireland24965 Posts
On January 23 2025 00:49 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2025 17:26 KT_Elwood wrote:
There has been no scientific evidence that WFH decreased worker's performance in germany.
The measured benefits:
- less stress
- more free time
- less costs for the employer
- better time/wage ratio if you count in commutes
- far less polution
- far less unhealthy consumption of convinience food and drinks, more time for cooking
- better physical fittness, due to 1-2 hours gained PER DAY to work out or just walk somewhere.. which is workout in industrialized world.
- Less cost for transportation..
- Less public cost for transportation
A happy worker, is a bad consumer.
I thought the real problems were knowledge transfer, getting new workers trained, teambuilding and probably most importantly oversight and management. I can work from home one day a week and it's great but I still come in 90% of the time. Because there are a lot of benefits being around coworkers even if I am as effective in my specific tasks on my own. I expect goverments and companies to pull back wfh, evaluate and then roll it out again in some modified form where it is appropriate.
And yes, many people were already pissed off about the bureaucratic class and new public management (with some right I would say) and didn't enjoy them getting more benefits, even if it came with no cost to themselves.As for the transgender issue. If you push a change in society and you have an overlapp where people with different opinions on what gender is lay claim to the same definition it's going to lead to backlash. When it comes to gay men both sides can agree that it's a man and he's gay. The conservative part of the population might think it's wrong but a large amount of people don't care enough if they don't think it intrudes on them directly. With trans rights you put people on a direct collision course because both sides fundamentally disagree on gender which they are both part of and whichever side is in power and gets to decide will lead to grievences on the other side. Only option to get them to coexist is to merge their ideas of what gender is, which takes a long time. Maybe pushing for trans rights is the best way to do this but setbacks are expected as the conservative part of the population pushes back. And the only thing that's really changed is the definition of gender which has been fluid lately. I'm from a generation which was raised on equal opportunity and the ideas that neither gender or your sexuality defined a person so I see both as minor parts of someone. [b]Also means I think the trans movements fixation on gender is pretty weird in general. I think a focus of making things more gender neutral in general would have been a better way forward. [/bInstead of fighting if trans men are allowed in women's sports, quietly change sports into biological parameters instead. Instead of figthing over bathrooms make more unisex bathrooms.
You want to push the conservative part of the population they will push back. As for international treaties I don't think you can tie an unwilling country into cooperation. The US population don't want it and it is what it is.
Addressing the various bolded.
If these agencies did a review, or were tasked to do one and determined they had to make WFH changes, that’s one thing. There is no uniform model that has a 100% hit rate as best practice.
They’re being forced to, by arbitrary diktat, to appease a portion of the population who are jealous of people’s working conditions and want to drag down the people who have some QoL benefits rather than advocate for better conditions for themselves.
That’s the problem, it’s the reasons for rescinding it rather than the rescinding it itself, for me anyway.
There was considerable conservative opposition to gay rights at every single juncture that had to be fought for yes, trans rights will be no different.
Trans people generally aren’t ’obsessed with gender’, they just want to be recognised for the gender they identify with and get on with it.
Conservatives push back against gender-neutral bathrooms because they see it as a concession to trans people. They also tend to be in favour of a more genderised society, so while I agree that reducing gender as a factor is a desirable move and perhaps we’ll get there one day as a species, it’s not one that actually placates many conservatives, indeed it actively antagonises them.
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I see oBlade received his firmware update from the fascist corners of the internet about this, as if being an apologist for Trump's rapes wasn't enough enshitification of this thread.
Unfortunately for them, the autism angle is counter-productive. Autism makes him repeat and rehearase what he is going to say and do to the point of stuttering from over-practice. Those were the most intentional, emphatic and rehearsed Nazi salutes possible. You never see that outside of neo-Nazi marches and historical footage.
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Northern Ireland24965 Posts
On January 23 2025 04:44 hexhaven wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 04:35 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 02:40 oBlade wrote:On January 23 2025 02:01 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 00:54 Velr wrote:On January 23 2025 00:49 oBlade wrote:On January 22 2025 23:44 Zambrah wrote:On January 22 2025 21:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:On January 22 2025 20:57 Gorsameth wrote:On January 22 2025 20:50 Liquid`Drone wrote:
In my opinion we should use fascism rather than nazism because the nazi allegation is pretty easy to deflect through 'where are the concentration camps' or 'dude's been way more pro Israel than democrats are' or 'he was the first president in forever to not get involved in a new military conflict' whereas the potential 'where's the extreme nationalism' or 'where's the focus on a strong leader supposed to fix everything' or 'where's the autoritarian and anti-democratic tendencies' are pretty easy to answer. If they are openly doing nazi salutes im calling them fucking nazis I don't think arguing about whether the angle he extends his arm is more consistent with a nazi or a fascist salute is very productive. It can be either. Fascist is bad enough. Nah man, this is softening the language, when theyre flying Nazi salutes theyre Nazis, they're also fascists, but theyre choosing to do Nazi things and just calling them fascists is, in my mind, less harsh than calling them Nazis. Everyone knows what a Nazi is and that Nazi = Evil, but fascists are a little fuzzier, a little easier to talk people into liking. Elon Musk is a Nazi and anyone down with him Seig'ing the fuck out of that Heil like he did at the inauguration is also probably a fuckin' Nazi. Would that include the ADL and Jonathan Greenblatt as probable Nazis? They seemed to imply that he was awkwardly gesturing from enthusiasm, as you might expect an autistic person with a now older chubbier and less wieldy body to do. Perhaps it's yet another case of a long line of Judeo-Nazi apologism...? Yeah, all these authistic people constantly making accidental Nazi-Salutes are really getting on my nerves since quite some time. It just a nice showing of how much these organisations/people look after their own cushy positions over what's right. They could also just be wrong to be fair. Although it seems somewhat unlikely to me. Regardless, I think it’s pretty patently ridiculous to pull a ‘but the ADL said…’ on this occasion from folks who’ve mocked the ASL for calling out dog whistles and whatnot for years now. False negatives and false positives are fundamentally different errors. For the same reason you are hopefully more likely to criticize a doctor who gave antacids to someone complaining of chest pain and died of a heart attack, than you are to criticize a doctor who gave a patient a blood test, EKG, ultrasound, MRI, and angiogram who ended up only having heartburn. The mechanics of the selective invocation of the ADL you want to get at are more than the possible gotcha you are otherwise right to be initially skeptical about. There is no risk to the ADL, who created themselves to police antisemitism, calling an inanimate green frog an antisemitic hate symbol. It's not going to sue them for defamation and it's not going to have any negative consequences - it's safe. When you get a self-described pro-semite doing an apparent LITERAL Nazi salute, you'd think it would be the perfect opportunity to nail him to the wall, so to speak. Rather, they were extra careful to get it right this time. The deeper issue is that this part of the left cannot sincerely use the moral gravity of Nazism to criticize a political faction made up of alleged fascists who are all... Israel supporters, Zionists, Jewish, or all of the above (or indeed whose defenders are any or all of the above as in the ADL's case), when the left has rabid antisemitism. Antisemitism is fundamental to every iteration of Nazism. Calling supporters of Israel Nazi is as laugh-out-of-the-roomable as calling Hitler Jewish. It is a painful category mistake. In fact it's so absurd that I can only picture it as a bar insult among opposite aisle bigots. Like a skinhead saying to a guy Netanyahu is a Nazi and then him responding oh yeah? well Hitler loved Israel and ate matzo balls every day. And both of their faces turning red and going "you take that back." What Drone is correct on for reasons of basic decorum, is actually also correct in basic facts. ‘Is Elon Musk a Nazi?’ is a fundamentally different question from ‘did Elon Musk do a Nazi salute, and if so, why?’ For me it’s no, yes, and trolling/shitposting rather than some admiration for Nazism. If the ADL feel unable to call what very much looks like a spade, a spade for worrying of litigation that in and of itself is problematic if that read is the case. You can’t say something like ‘While it may have been unintentional, we remind public figures to avoid gestures that may be construed in this manner.’? I studiously avoid the whole ‘Nazi’ charge for the reasons outlined, or as Drone has said. Not that specificity of political affiliation is a great strength of our collective discourse. Those darn socialists and Communists who are one degree left of Margaret Thatcher! Musk has been openly supporting antisemitic parties in various parts of Europe.
He’s an utterly repellent piece of shit and a Fascist-enabler, I just don’t think he’s personally a full card-carrying Nazi is all.
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On January 23 2025 05:24 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 04:44 hexhaven wrote:On January 23 2025 04:35 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 02:40 oBlade wrote:On January 23 2025 02:01 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 00:54 Velr wrote:On January 23 2025 00:49 oBlade wrote:On January 22 2025 23:44 Zambrah wrote:On January 22 2025 21:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:On January 22 2025 20:57 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]If they are openly doing nazi salutes im calling them fucking nazis
I don't think arguing about whether the angle he extends his arm is more consistent with a nazi or a fascist salute is very productive. It can be either. Fascist is bad enough. Nah man, this is softening the language, when theyre flying Nazi salutes theyre Nazis, they're also fascists, but theyre choosing to do Nazi things and just calling them fascists is, in my mind, less harsh than calling them Nazis. Everyone knows what a Nazi is and that Nazi = Evil, but fascists are a little fuzzier, a little easier to talk people into liking. Elon Musk is a Nazi and anyone down with him Seig'ing the fuck out of that Heil like he did at the inauguration is also probably a fuckin' Nazi. Would that include the ADL and Jonathan Greenblatt as probable Nazis? They seemed to imply that he was awkwardly gesturing from enthusiasm, as you might expect an autistic person with a now older chubbier and less wieldy body to do. Perhaps it's yet another case of a long line of Judeo-Nazi apologism...? Yeah, all these authistic people constantly making accidental Nazi-Salutes are really getting on my nerves since quite some time. It just a nice showing of how much these organisations/people look after their own cushy positions over what's right. They could also just be wrong to be fair. Although it seems somewhat unlikely to me. Regardless, I think it’s pretty patently ridiculous to pull a ‘but the ADL said…’ on this occasion from folks who’ve mocked the ASL for calling out dog whistles and whatnot for years now. False negatives and false positives are fundamentally different errors. For the same reason you are hopefully more likely to criticize a doctor who gave antacids to someone complaining of chest pain and died of a heart attack, than you are to criticize a doctor who gave a patient a blood test, EKG, ultrasound, MRI, and angiogram who ended up only having heartburn. The mechanics of the selective invocation of the ADL you want to get at are more than the possible gotcha you are otherwise right to be initially skeptical about. There is no risk to the ADL, who created themselves to police antisemitism, calling an inanimate green frog an antisemitic hate symbol. It's not going to sue them for defamation and it's not going to have any negative consequences - it's safe. When you get a self-described pro-semite doing an apparent LITERAL Nazi salute, you'd think it would be the perfect opportunity to nail him to the wall, so to speak. Rather, they were extra careful to get it right this time. The deeper issue is that this part of the left cannot sincerely use the moral gravity of Nazism to criticize a political faction made up of alleged fascists who are all... Israel supporters, Zionists, Jewish, or all of the above (or indeed whose defenders are any or all of the above as in the ADL's case), when the left has rabid antisemitism. Antisemitism is fundamental to every iteration of Nazism. Calling supporters of Israel Nazi is as laugh-out-of-the-roomable as calling Hitler Jewish. It is a painful category mistake. In fact it's so absurd that I can only picture it as a bar insult among opposite aisle bigots. Like a skinhead saying to a guy Netanyahu is a Nazi and then him responding oh yeah? well Hitler loved Israel and ate matzo balls every day. And both of their faces turning red and going "you take that back." What Drone is correct on for reasons of basic decorum, is actually also correct in basic facts. ‘Is Elon Musk a Nazi?’ is a fundamentally different question from ‘did Elon Musk do a Nazi salute, and if so, why?’ For me it’s no, yes, and trolling/shitposting rather than some admiration for Nazism. If the ADL feel unable to call what very much looks like a spade, a spade for worrying of litigation that in and of itself is problematic if that read is the case. You can’t say something like ‘While it may have been unintentional, we remind public figures to avoid gestures that may be construed in this manner.’? I studiously avoid the whole ‘Nazi’ charge for the reasons outlined, or as Drone has said. Not that specificity of political affiliation is a great strength of our collective discourse. Those darn socialists and Communists who are one degree left of Margaret Thatcher! Musk has been openly supporting antisemitic parties in various parts of Europe. He’s an utterly repellent piece of shit and a Fascist-enabler, I just don’t think he’s personally a full card-carrying Nazi is all. he regularly retweets nazi propaganda and has now openly done 2 very obvious nazi salutes.
I'm curious what it takes for you if that is not enough.
He isn't just letting them do their thing on twitter, he is actively promoting them.
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On January 23 2025 04:49 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 00:49 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On January 22 2025 17:26 KT_Elwood wrote:
There has been no scientific evidence that WFH decreased worker's performance in germany.
The measured benefits:
- less stress
- more free time
- less costs for the employer
- better time/wage ratio if you count in commutes
- far less polution
- far less unhealthy consumption of convinience food and drinks, more time for cooking
- better physical fittness, due to 1-2 hours gained PER DAY to work out or just walk somewhere.. which is workout in industrialized world.
- Less cost for transportation..
- Less public cost for transportation
A happy worker, is a bad consumer.
I thought the real problems were knowledge transfer, getting new workers trained, teambuilding and probably most importantly oversight and management. I can work from home one day a week and it's great but I still come in 90% of the time. Because there are a lot of benefits being around coworkers even if I am as effective in my specific tasks on my own. I expect goverments and companies to pull back wfh, evaluate and then roll it out again in some modified form where it is appropriate.
And yes, many people were already pissed off about the bureaucratic class and new public management (with some right I would say) and didn't enjoy them getting more benefits, even if it came with no cost to themselves.As for the transgender issue. If you push a change in society and you have an overlapp where people with different opinions on what gender is lay claim to the same definition it's going to lead to backlash. When it comes to gay men both sides can agree that it's a man and he's gay. The conservative part of the population might think it's wrong but a large amount of people don't care enough if they don't think it intrudes on them directly. With trans rights you put people on a direct collision course because both sides fundamentally disagree on gender which they are both part of and whichever side is in power and gets to decide will lead to grievences on the other side. Only option to get them to coexist is to merge their ideas of what gender is, which takes a long time. Maybe pushing for trans rights is the best way to do this but setbacks are expected as the conservative part of the population pushes back. And the only thing that's really changed is the definition of gender which has been fluid lately. I'm from a generation which was raised on equal opportunity and the ideas that neither gender or your sexuality defined a person so I see both as minor parts of someone. [b]Also means I think the trans movements fixation on gender is pretty weird in general. I think a focus of making things more gender neutral in general would have been a better way forward. [/bInstead of fighting if trans men are allowed in women's sports, quietly change sports into biological parameters instead. Instead of figthing over bathrooms make more unisex bathrooms.
You want to push the conservative part of the population they will push back. As for international treaties I don't think you can tie an unwilling country into cooperation. The US population don't want it and it is what it is. Addressing the various bolded. If these agencies did a review, or were tasked to do one and determined they had to make WFH changes, that’s one thing. There is no uniform model that has a 100% hit rate as best practice. They’re being forced to, by arbitrary diktat, to appease a portion of the population who are jealous of people’s working conditions and want to drag down the people who have some QoL benefits rather than advocate for better conditions for themselves. That’s the problem, it’s the reasons for rescinding it rather than the rescinding it itself, for me anyway. There was considerable conservative opposition to gay rights at every single juncture that had to be fought for yes, trans rights will be no different. Trans people generally aren’t ’obsessed with gender’, they just want to be recognised for the gender they identify with and get on with it. Conservatives push back against gender-neutral bathrooms because they see it as a concession to trans people. They also tend to be in favour of a more genderised society, so while I agree that reducing gender as a factor is a desirable move and perhaps we’ll get there one day as a species, it’s not one that actually placates many conservatives, indeed it actively antagonises them.
You make it seem like before Donald Trump did this there were no pullbacks on WFH. It's quite the opposite. Following the pandemic government institutions and companies have been pulling people back in many different countries. Exactly how much WFH and what types of work of course varies wildly from workplace to workplace.
Almost universally there has been a massive outcry each time from workers who have learned to appreciate the immense benefits to themselves from WFH.
I agree that in this instance it's mostly Trump placating his base. However I also think it's a pretty natural reaction from the people who are pissed off and I don't think it's pure jealousy.
Imagine being "on the floor" dealing with people who write tons of manuals on how you can run a little faster to produce a little more. They already have massively better working conditions than you. Covid hits, they get to go home, you are still there. Covid ends. Your workplace wants them to come back to work. They gets absolutely rabid on how that's going to destroy their work life balance. Meanwhile they just produced another manual about how you can't all have a coffee break at the same time because you are understaffed, and it threatens patient safety, so you can't even shoot the shit with both of your friends at the same time on your 10 min break.
It's wrong (because it doesn't help their lives get any better) but it's understandable. And it probably wouldn't have ended if people who lost WFH took the L a little more gracefully.
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Northern Ireland24965 Posts
On January 23 2025 05:30 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 05:24 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 04:44 hexhaven wrote:On January 23 2025 04:35 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 02:40 oBlade wrote:On January 23 2025 02:01 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 00:54 Velr wrote:On January 23 2025 00:49 oBlade wrote:On January 22 2025 23:44 Zambrah wrote:On January 22 2025 21:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:
[quote]
I don't think arguing about whether the angle he extends his arm is more consistent with a nazi or a fascist salute is very productive. It can be either. Fascist is bad enough. Nah man, this is softening the language, when theyre flying Nazi salutes theyre Nazis, they're also fascists, but theyre choosing to do Nazi things and just calling them fascists is, in my mind, less harsh than calling them Nazis. Everyone knows what a Nazi is and that Nazi = Evil, but fascists are a little fuzzier, a little easier to talk people into liking. Elon Musk is a Nazi and anyone down with him Seig'ing the fuck out of that Heil like he did at the inauguration is also probably a fuckin' Nazi. Would that include the ADL and Jonathan Greenblatt as probable Nazis? They seemed to imply that he was awkwardly gesturing from enthusiasm, as you might expect an autistic person with a now older chubbier and less wieldy body to do. Perhaps it's yet another case of a long line of Judeo-Nazi apologism...? Yeah, all these authistic people constantly making accidental Nazi-Salutes are really getting on my nerves since quite some time. It just a nice showing of how much these organisations/people look after their own cushy positions over what's right. They could also just be wrong to be fair. Although it seems somewhat unlikely to me. Regardless, I think it’s pretty patently ridiculous to pull a ‘but the ADL said…’ on this occasion from folks who’ve mocked the ASL for calling out dog whistles and whatnot for years now. False negatives and false positives are fundamentally different errors. For the same reason you are hopefully more likely to criticize a doctor who gave antacids to someone complaining of chest pain and died of a heart attack, than you are to criticize a doctor who gave a patient a blood test, EKG, ultrasound, MRI, and angiogram who ended up only having heartburn. The mechanics of the selective invocation of the ADL you want to get at are more than the possible gotcha you are otherwise right to be initially skeptical about. There is no risk to the ADL, who created themselves to police antisemitism, calling an inanimate green frog an antisemitic hate symbol. It's not going to sue them for defamation and it's not going to have any negative consequences - it's safe. When you get a self-described pro-semite doing an apparent LITERAL Nazi salute, you'd think it would be the perfect opportunity to nail him to the wall, so to speak. Rather, they were extra careful to get it right this time. The deeper issue is that this part of the left cannot sincerely use the moral gravity of Nazism to criticize a political faction made up of alleged fascists who are all... Israel supporters, Zionists, Jewish, or all of the above (or indeed whose defenders are any or all of the above as in the ADL's case), when the left has rabid antisemitism. Antisemitism is fundamental to every iteration of Nazism. Calling supporters of Israel Nazi is as laugh-out-of-the-roomable as calling Hitler Jewish. It is a painful category mistake. In fact it's so absurd that I can only picture it as a bar insult among opposite aisle bigots. Like a skinhead saying to a guy Netanyahu is a Nazi and then him responding oh yeah? well Hitler loved Israel and ate matzo balls every day. And both of their faces turning red and going "you take that back." What Drone is correct on for reasons of basic decorum, is actually also correct in basic facts. ‘Is Elon Musk a Nazi?’ is a fundamentally different question from ‘did Elon Musk do a Nazi salute, and if so, why?’ For me it’s no, yes, and trolling/shitposting rather than some admiration for Nazism. If the ADL feel unable to call what very much looks like a spade, a spade for worrying of litigation that in and of itself is problematic if that read is the case. You can’t say something like ‘While it may have been unintentional, we remind public figures to avoid gestures that may be construed in this manner.’? I studiously avoid the whole ‘Nazi’ charge for the reasons outlined, or as Drone has said. Not that specificity of political affiliation is a great strength of our collective discourse. Those darn socialists and Communists who are one degree left of Margaret Thatcher! Musk has been openly supporting antisemitic parties in various parts of Europe. He’s an utterly repellent piece of shit and a Fascist-enabler, I just don’t think he’s personally a full card-carrying Nazi is all. he regularly retweets nazi propaganda and has now openly done 2 very obvious nazi salutes. I'm curious what it takes for you if that is not enough. He isn't just letting them do their thing on twitter, he is actively promoting them.
Being a Nazi I suppose?
It doesn’t make him any less dangerous, functionally appeasing a bunch of Neo-Nazis is the pertinent problem, it doesn’t make much difference whether it’s out of self-interested pragmatism or being a true believer, you’re still appeasing Nazis.
There’s probably a parallel universe where Trump is beloved darling of the left of the country and conservatives hate him.
It’s a useful vector for power, albeit unlike Trump I think Musk does believe some of his shtick. But no to the degree I’d label him a Nazi, increasingly far right leaning Fascist, sure.
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Northern Ireland24965 Posts
On January 23 2025 05:42 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 04:49 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 00:49 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On January 22 2025 17:26 KT_Elwood wrote:
There has been no scientific evidence that WFH decreased worker's performance in germany.
The measured benefits:
- less stress
- more free time
- less costs for the employer
- better time/wage ratio if you count in commutes
- far less polution
- far less unhealthy consumption of convinience food and drinks, more time for cooking
- better physical fittness, due to 1-2 hours gained PER DAY to work out or just walk somewhere.. which is workout in industrialized world.
- Less cost for transportation..
- Less public cost for transportation
A happy worker, is a bad consumer.
I thought the real problems were knowledge transfer, getting new workers trained, teambuilding and probably most importantly oversight and management. I can work from home one day a week and it's great but I still come in 90% of the time. Because there are a lot of benefits being around coworkers even if I am as effective in my specific tasks on my own. I expect goverments and companies to pull back wfh, evaluate and then roll it out again in some modified form where it is appropriate.
And yes, many people were already pissed off about the bureaucratic class and new public management (with some right I would say) and didn't enjoy them getting more benefits, even if it came with no cost to themselves.As for the transgender issue. If you push a change in society and you have an overlapp where people with different opinions on what gender is lay claim to the same definition it's going to lead to backlash. When it comes to gay men both sides can agree that it's a man and he's gay. The conservative part of the population might think it's wrong but a large amount of people don't care enough if they don't think it intrudes on them directly. With trans rights you put people on a direct collision course because both sides fundamentally disagree on gender which they are both part of and whichever side is in power and gets to decide will lead to grievences on the other side. Only option to get them to coexist is to merge their ideas of what gender is, which takes a long time. Maybe pushing for trans rights is the best way to do this but setbacks are expected as the conservative part of the population pushes back. And the only thing that's really changed is the definition of gender which has been fluid lately. I'm from a generation which was raised on equal opportunity and the ideas that neither gender or your sexuality defined a person so I see both as minor parts of someone. Also means I think the trans movements fixation on gender is pretty weird in general. I think a focus of making things more gender neutral in general would have been a better way forward. [/bInstead of fighting if trans men are allowed in women's sports, quietly change sports into biological parameters instead.
Instead of figthing over bathrooms make more unisex bathrooms.
You want to push the conservative part of the population they will push back.
As for international treaties I don't think you can tie an unwilling country into cooperation. The US population don't want it and it is what it is. Addressing the various bolded. If these agencies did a review, or were tasked to do one and determined they had to make WFH changes, that’s one thing. There is no uniform model that has a 100% hit rate as best practice. They’re being forced to, by arbitrary diktat, to appease a portion of the population who are jealous of people’s working conditions and want to drag down the people who have some QoL benefits rather than advocate for better conditions for themselves. That’s the problem, it’s the reasons for rescinding it rather than the rescinding it itself, for me anyway. There was considerable conservative opposition to gay rights at every single juncture that had to be fought for yes, trans rights will be no different. Trans people generally aren’t ’obsessed with gender’, they just want to be recognised for the gender they identify with and get on with it. Conservatives push back against gender-neutral bathrooms because they see it as a concession to trans people. They also tend to be in favour of a more genderised society, so while I agree that reducing gender as a factor is a desirable move and perhaps we’ll get there one day as a species, it’s not one that actually placates many conservatives, indeed it actively antagonises them. You make it seem like before Donald Trump did this there were no pullbacks on WFH. It's quite the opposite. Following the pandemic government institutions and companies have been pulling people back in many different countries. Exactly how much WFH and what types of work of course varies wildly from workplace to workplace. Almost universally there has been a massive outcry each time from workers who have learned to appreciate the immense benefits to themselves from WFH. I agree that in this instance it's mostly Trump placating his base. However I also think it's a pretty natural reaction from the people who are pissed off and I don't think it's pure jealousy. Imagine being "on the floor" dealing with people who write tons of manuals on how you can run a little faster to produce a little more. They already have massively better working conditions than you. Covid hits, they get to go home, you are still there. Covid ends. Your workplace wants them to come back to work. [b]They gets absolutely rabid on how that's going to destroy their work life balance. Meanwhile they just produced another manual about how you can't all have a coffee break at the same time because you are understaffed, and it threatens patient safety, so you can't even shoot the shit with both of your friends at the same time on your 10 min break. It's wrong (because it doesn't help their lives get any better) but it's understandable. And it probably wouldn't have ended if people who lost WFH took the L a little more gracefully.
I’ve worked over half my life on the floor so to speak, and I’ve no issues with any of that in my workplace.
If you’re understaffed to that degree it’s people in the C-suite or head office making those kind of decisions, which is the same beast regardless of you being on prem or not. It’s not some colleague on the same grade being able to WFH or not.
You’re asking people to be gracious at a rolling back of conditions that are much better for them, that is precipitated by anger and a complete lack of graciousness from other people?
The reason there’s such a pushback is that for years and years people were told WFH wasn’t viable, especially not for the plebs. Until Covid forced it, and people had hands-on experience that it did indeed work and it wasn’t some hypothetical. There’s a difference between not implementing a hypothetical as unrealistic and reverting something that’s been shown to work.
Some companies have reversed course, and indeed some may be correct to do so, it’s up to organisations to make that call themselves.
It’s not some Donald Trump invention no, but his administration is happy to unilaterally demand this to placate their base, without doing any kind of cost-benefit analysis on it. That’s my issue here, it’s not considered policy it’s just punishing workers in a sector because it plays well with the base.
A sector that fucking ‘DOGE’ probably wants to slash anyway. Makes sense to make those worker’s lives worse if you want to slash various federal agencies.
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It looks like Donald Trump is pushing his bigoted agenda a little bit further every day; he just rescinded a guard rail that protected against discriminatory employment practices. President Lyndon B. Johnson signed Executive Order 11246 in 1965, which "prohibited 'federal contractors and federally assisted construction contractors and subcontractors, who do over $10,000 in Government business in one year, from discriminating in employment decisions on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.'[1]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_11246
That's gone now - Trump is chipping away at civil rights, little by little - though fortunately there are other rules and laws in place to protect employees from discrimination. Hopefully Trump and his Republican Congress don't repeal them all.
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On January 23 2025 05:51 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 05:30 Gorsameth wrote:On January 23 2025 05:24 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 04:44 hexhaven wrote:On January 23 2025 04:35 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 02:40 oBlade wrote:On January 23 2025 02:01 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 00:54 Velr wrote:On January 23 2025 00:49 oBlade wrote:On January 22 2025 23:44 Zambrah wrote:
[quote]
Nah man, this is softening the language, when theyre flying Nazi salutes theyre Nazis, they're also fascists, but theyre choosing to do Nazi things and just calling them fascists is, in my mind, less harsh than calling them Nazis. Everyone knows what a Nazi is and that Nazi = Evil, but fascists are a little fuzzier, a little easier to talk people into liking.
Elon Musk is a Nazi and anyone down with him Seig'ing the fuck out of that Heil like he did at the inauguration is also probably a fuckin' Nazi. Would that include the ADL and Jonathan Greenblatt as probable Nazis? They seemed to imply that he was awkwardly gesturing from enthusiasm, as you might expect an autistic person with a now older chubbier and less wieldy body to do. Perhaps it's yet another case of a long line of Judeo-Nazi apologism...? Yeah, all these authistic people constantly making accidental Nazi-Salutes are really getting on my nerves since quite some time. It just a nice showing of how much these organisations/people look after their own cushy positions over what's right. They could also just be wrong to be fair. Although it seems somewhat unlikely to me. Regardless, I think it’s pretty patently ridiculous to pull a ‘but the ADL said…’ on this occasion from folks who’ve mocked the ASL for calling out dog whistles and whatnot for years now. False negatives and false positives are fundamentally different errors. For the same reason you are hopefully more likely to criticize a doctor who gave antacids to someone complaining of chest pain and died of a heart attack, than you are to criticize a doctor who gave a patient a blood test, EKG, ultrasound, MRI, and angiogram who ended up only having heartburn. The mechanics of the selective invocation of the ADL you want to get at are more than the possible gotcha you are otherwise right to be initially skeptical about. There is no risk to the ADL, who created themselves to police antisemitism, calling an inanimate green frog an antisemitic hate symbol. It's not going to sue them for defamation and it's not going to have any negative consequences - it's safe. When you get a self-described pro-semite doing an apparent LITERAL Nazi salute, you'd think it would be the perfect opportunity to nail him to the wall, so to speak. Rather, they were extra careful to get it right this time. The deeper issue is that this part of the left cannot sincerely use the moral gravity of Nazism to criticize a political faction made up of alleged fascists who are all... Israel supporters, Zionists, Jewish, or all of the above (or indeed whose defenders are any or all of the above as in the ADL's case), when the left has rabid antisemitism. Antisemitism is fundamental to every iteration of Nazism. Calling supporters of Israel Nazi is as laugh-out-of-the-roomable as calling Hitler Jewish. It is a painful category mistake. In fact it's so absurd that I can only picture it as a bar insult among opposite aisle bigots. Like a skinhead saying to a guy Netanyahu is a Nazi and then him responding oh yeah? well Hitler loved Israel and ate matzo balls every day. And both of their faces turning red and going "you take that back." What Drone is correct on for reasons of basic decorum, is actually also correct in basic facts. ‘Is Elon Musk a Nazi?’ is a fundamentally different question from ‘did Elon Musk do a Nazi salute, and if so, why?’ For me it’s no, yes, and trolling/shitposting rather than some admiration for Nazism. If the ADL feel unable to call what very much looks like a spade, a spade for worrying of litigation that in and of itself is problematic if that read is the case. You can’t say something like ‘While it may have been unintentional, we remind public figures to avoid gestures that may be construed in this manner.’? I studiously avoid the whole ‘Nazi’ charge for the reasons outlined, or as Drone has said. Not that specificity of political affiliation is a great strength of our collective discourse. Those darn socialists and Communists who are one degree left of Margaret Thatcher! Musk has been openly supporting antisemitic parties in various parts of Europe. He’s an utterly repellent piece of shit and a Fascist-enabler, I just don’t think he’s personally a full card-carrying Nazi is all. he regularly retweets nazi propaganda and has now openly done 2 very obvious nazi salutes. I'm curious what it takes for you if that is not enough. He isn't just letting them do their thing on twitter, he is actively promoting them. Being a Nazi I suppose? It doesn’t make him any less dangerous, functionally appeasing a bunch of Neo-Nazis is the pertinent problem, it doesn’t make much difference whether it’s out of self-interested pragmatism or being a true believer, you’re still appeasing Nazis. There’s probably a parallel universe where Trump is beloved darling of the left of the country and conservatives hate him. It’s a useful vector for power, albeit unlike Trump I think Musk does believe some of his shtick. But no to the degree I’d label him a Nazi, increasingly far right leaning Fascist, sure.
But aren't you speculating as to the intent of his actions at that point? It seems more straight forward that if we were to take such actions at face value, without imposing our own speculations onto the person's motives, that a person who Sieg Heils twice to a crowd of people... is a Nazi.
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Cant wait for Democrats to get back in power and show us all how hard it is to do things again
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On January 23 2025 06:30 Zambrah wrote:
Cant wait for Democrats to get back in power and show us all how hard it is to do things again
If you can cook up 500,000,000,000 Dollars from thin air with an executive order, Democrats deserve King Trump and no more elections what so ever.
Hell, round them up and make them play squidgame on a facblarg/X/Teams lifestream for being useless.
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On January 23 2025 06:20 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 05:51 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 05:30 Gorsameth wrote:On January 23 2025 05:24 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 04:44 hexhaven wrote:On January 23 2025 04:35 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 02:40 oBlade wrote:On January 23 2025 02:01 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 00:54 Velr wrote:On January 23 2025 00:49 oBlade wrote:
[quote]
Would that include the ADL and Jonathan Greenblatt as probable Nazis? They seemed to imply that he was awkwardly gesturing from enthusiasm, as you might expect an autistic person with a now older chubbier and less wieldy body to do. Perhaps it's yet another case of a long line of Judeo-Nazi apologism...? Yeah, all these authistic people constantly making accidental Nazi-Salutes are really getting on my nerves since quite some time. It just a nice showing of how much these organisations/people look after their own cushy positions over what's right. They could also just be wrong to be fair. Although it seems somewhat unlikely to me. Regardless, I think it’s pretty patently ridiculous to pull a ‘but the ADL said…’ on this occasion from folks who’ve mocked the ASL for calling out dog whistles and whatnot for years now. False negatives and false positives are fundamentally different errors. For the same reason you are hopefully more likely to criticize a doctor who gave antacids to someone complaining of chest pain and died of a heart attack, than you are to criticize a doctor who gave a patient a blood test, EKG, ultrasound, MRI, and angiogram who ended up only having heartburn. The mechanics of the selective invocation of the ADL you want to get at are more than the possible gotcha you are otherwise right to be initially skeptical about. There is no risk to the ADL, who created themselves to police antisemitism, calling an inanimate green frog an antisemitic hate symbol. It's not going to sue them for defamation and it's not going to have any negative consequences - it's safe. When you get a self-described pro-semite doing an apparent LITERAL Nazi salute, you'd think it would be the perfect opportunity to nail him to the wall, so to speak. Rather, they were extra careful to get it right this time. The deeper issue is that this part of the left cannot sincerely use the moral gravity of Nazism to criticize a political faction made up of alleged fascists who are all... Israel supporters, Zionists, Jewish, or all of the above (or indeed whose defenders are any or all of the above as in the ADL's case), when the left has rabid antisemitism. Antisemitism is fundamental to every iteration of Nazism. Calling supporters of Israel Nazi is as laugh-out-of-the-roomable as calling Hitler Jewish. It is a painful category mistake. In fact it's so absurd that I can only picture it as a bar insult among opposite aisle bigots. Like a skinhead saying to a guy Netanyahu is a Nazi and then him responding oh yeah? well Hitler loved Israel and ate matzo balls every day. And both of their faces turning red and going "you take that back." What Drone is correct on for reasons of basic decorum, is actually also correct in basic facts. ‘Is Elon Musk a Nazi?’ is a fundamentally different question from ‘did Elon Musk do a Nazi salute, and if so, why?’ For me it’s no, yes, and trolling/shitposting rather than some admiration for Nazism. If the ADL feel unable to call what very much looks like a spade, a spade for worrying of litigation that in and of itself is problematic if that read is the case. You can’t say something like ‘While it may have been unintentional, we remind public figures to avoid gestures that may be construed in this manner.’? I studiously avoid the whole ‘Nazi’ charge for the reasons outlined, or as Drone has said. Not that specificity of political affiliation is a great strength of our collective discourse. Those darn socialists and Communists who are one degree left of Margaret Thatcher! Musk has been openly supporting antisemitic parties in various parts of Europe. He’s an utterly repellent piece of shit and a Fascist-enabler, I just don’t think he’s personally a full card-carrying Nazi is all. he regularly retweets nazi propaganda and has now openly done 2 very obvious nazi salutes. I'm curious what it takes for you if that is not enough. He isn't just letting them do their thing on twitter, he is actively promoting them. Being a Nazi I suppose? It doesn’t make him any less dangerous, functionally appeasing a bunch of Neo-Nazis is the pertinent problem, it doesn’t make much difference whether it’s out of self-interested pragmatism or being a true believer, you’re still appeasing Nazis. There’s probably a parallel universe where Trump is beloved darling of the left of the country and conservatives hate him. It’s a useful vector for power, albeit unlike Trump I think Musk does believe some of his shtick. But no to the degree I’d label him a Nazi, increasingly far right leaning Fascist, sure. But aren't you speculating as to the intent of his actions at that point? It seems more straight forward that if we were to take such actions at face value, without imposing our own speculations onto the person's motives, that a person who Sieg Heils twice to a crowd of people... is a Nazi.
I do not view his vague arm motions as a zieg heil celebrating Hitler. The mainstream media looks like morons covering this silliness.
I hang out with 87 bazillion Jews. I do not know a single one who takes Musk's arm motions as a threat. Not one.
Jews do take the 'death to Israel, Death to the USA, Death to Canada' chants while burning a Canadian flag in Vancouver seriously though.
I guess the strat is to poison the well with fake antisemitic threats so the real antisemitism is muted.
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"Vague" lmao, some of you are irredeemable. They could be shoving minorities into ovens and you'd say they're just warming them up cause it's winter.
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On January 23 2025 06:48 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 06:20 ghrur wrote:On January 23 2025 05:51 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 05:30 Gorsameth wrote:On January 23 2025 05:24 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 04:44 hexhaven wrote:On January 23 2025 04:35 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 02:40 oBlade wrote:On January 23 2025 02:01 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 00:54 Velr wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, all these authistic people constantly making accidental Nazi-Salutes are really getting on my nerves since quite some time.
It just a nice showing of how much these organisations/people look after their own cushy positions over what's right. They could also just be wrong to be fair. Although it seems somewhat unlikely to me. Regardless, I think it’s pretty patently ridiculous to pull a ‘but the ADL said…’ on this occasion from folks who’ve mocked the ASL for calling out dog whistles and whatnot for years now. False negatives and false positives are fundamentally different errors. For the same reason you are hopefully more likely to criticize a doctor who gave antacids to someone complaining of chest pain and died of a heart attack, than you are to criticize a doctor who gave a patient a blood test, EKG, ultrasound, MRI, and angiogram who ended up only having heartburn. The mechanics of the selective invocation of the ADL you want to get at are more than the possible gotcha you are otherwise right to be initially skeptical about. There is no risk to the ADL, who created themselves to police antisemitism, calling an inanimate green frog an antisemitic hate symbol. It's not going to sue them for defamation and it's not going to have any negative consequences - it's safe. When you get a self-described pro-semite doing an apparent LITERAL Nazi salute, you'd think it would be the perfect opportunity to nail him to the wall, so to speak. Rather, they were extra careful to get it right this time. The deeper issue is that this part of the left cannot sincerely use the moral gravity of Nazism to criticize a political faction made up of alleged fascists who are all... Israel supporters, Zionists, Jewish, or all of the above (or indeed whose defenders are any or all of the above as in the ADL's case), when the left has rabid antisemitism. Antisemitism is fundamental to every iteration of Nazism. Calling supporters of Israel Nazi is as laugh-out-of-the-roomable as calling Hitler Jewish. It is a painful category mistake. In fact it's so absurd that I can only picture it as a bar insult among opposite aisle bigots. Like a skinhead saying to a guy Netanyahu is a Nazi and then him responding oh yeah? well Hitler loved Israel and ate matzo balls every day. And both of their faces turning red and going "you take that back." What Drone is correct on for reasons of basic decorum, is actually also correct in basic facts. ‘Is Elon Musk a Nazi?’ is a fundamentally different question from ‘did Elon Musk do a Nazi salute, and if so, why?’ For me it’s no, yes, and trolling/shitposting rather than some admiration for Nazism. If the ADL feel unable to call what very much looks like a spade, a spade for worrying of litigation that in and of itself is problematic if that read is the case. You can’t say something like ‘While it may have been unintentional, we remind public figures to avoid gestures that may be construed in this manner.’? I studiously avoid the whole ‘Nazi’ charge for the reasons outlined, or as Drone has said. Not that specificity of political affiliation is a great strength of our collective discourse. Those darn socialists and Communists who are one degree left of Margaret Thatcher! Musk has been openly supporting antisemitic parties in various parts of Europe. He’s an utterly repellent piece of shit and a Fascist-enabler, I just don’t think he’s personally a full card-carrying Nazi is all. he regularly retweets nazi propaganda and has now openly done 2 very obvious nazi salutes. I'm curious what it takes for you if that is not enough. He isn't just letting them do their thing on twitter, he is actively promoting them. Being a Nazi I suppose? It doesn’t make him any less dangerous, functionally appeasing a bunch of Neo-Nazis is the pertinent problem, it doesn’t make much difference whether it’s out of self-interested pragmatism or being a true believer, you’re still appeasing Nazis. There’s probably a parallel universe where Trump is beloved darling of the left of the country and conservatives hate him. It’s a useful vector for power, albeit unlike Trump I think Musk does believe some of his shtick. But no to the degree I’d label him a Nazi, increasingly far right leaning Fascist, sure. But aren't you speculating as to the intent of his actions at that point? It seems more straight forward that if we were to take such actions at face value, without imposing our own speculations onto the person's motives, that a person who Sieg Heils twice to a crowd of people... is a Nazi. I do not view his vague arm motions as a zieg heil celebrating Hitler.
They aren't vague arm motions. It was the Nazi salute. More than once.
Furthermore, Musk's speech was literally celebrating America's Hitler (JD Vance's nickname for Donald Trump).
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On January 23 2025 06:56 Dan HH wrote:
"Vague" lmao, some of you are irredeemable. They could be shoving minorities into ovens and you'd say they're just warming them up cause it's winter.
It seems that JJR is committed to being a Trump supporter, based on his posts over (at least) the past few weeks or so, regardless of how embarrassing and incorrect his takes have been. It's disappointing to read, but it's consistent with JJR's MAGA perspective to excuse Nazi salutes.
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EPT
