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Norway28553 Posts
When I say that fascist is more accurate than nazi it's not because I want to avoid hurting the fascist's feelings. Genuine fascists are bound to consider me an enemy because of my liberal and socialist tendencies and I don't think there's any common ground to be found.
The issue, rather, is two-fold.
Firstly, while nazism and fascism are obviously closely related, they also invoke some different associations. While, as with most ideologies, it's hard to pinpoint an exact definition and therefore there's bound to be some disagreements as to just what constitutes fascism, there are also some elements that need to be present. Namely - extreme nationalism, propensity towards considering the world a place of struggle/war rather than cooperation towards a better future for all, a creation of 'the other' that this struggle/war can be waged against, authoritarianism/anti-democracy/totalitarianism/persecution of opponents, action for the sake of action, focus on masculine values, personality cult, focus on tradition/traditional values.
Now, nazism shares all of these. However, where it distinguishes itself, is that it's genocidally anti-semitic and race-oriented. But this is actually a pretty significant distinction to make. The immediate imaginery associated with Hitler is one of starting the most brutal conflict of all human history and industrialized genocide. It's not like Mussolini and Franco were innocent in this regard, but these components are not inherent to fascism. And Hitler had had murdered - not just jailed - up to 1000 political opponents already in 1934.
I think it's fairly easy to point towards how elements in the description of fascism match up with Trump. So far - and hopefully this continues - the persecution of political opponents hasn't been even close to matching that of the more famous fascist regimes we've seen and I struggle picturing the US turning entirely totalitarian during the next 4 years - but there's already enough for me to find 'fascist-adjecent' a fitting term. Even so, I remain fairly convinced that Trump's America will be better than Mussolini's Italy, Franco's Spain or Pinochet's Chile, but that's not really relevant for whether the term fascist can be a fitting description.
However, none of the things that distinguish nazism from fascism seem to apply - at all. They just don't. Nazi isn't equivalent of 'guy who is into culture war macho bullshit and who ignorantly thinks Trump is going to solve all problems of america' - not even if you add 'hates immigrants' is it fitting. I honestly think 'wants to genocide the jews' is a necessary component. I mean sure there's been some evolution of the term and if some guy tattoos swastikas on himself and talks about the supremacy of the aryan race and is reasonably content with the jews simply being on a different continent - they don't actually have to die - then I'm fine with that guy being regarded as a nazi, but it's pretty specific.
That was reason 1 why I don't favor the term.
Reason 2 is that I interact with guys that both consider Hitler a fundamentally evil person, one of the worst to ever walk the earth, and who would've voted Trump over Harris, several times a week. When we're discussing stuff on the internet, or anywhere else, we shouldn't have 'convince the guy I'm talking to that he's wrong' as our goal (I mean it's a potential long-shot, but usually pretty unrealistic, certain individuals can be exceptions I guess). It's more about convincing the spectators. Saying Trump is Hitler/a nazi doesn't make the lean-trump individuals reflect upon their political affiliation, it makes them think 'that's nonsense', because Trump hasn't started any world war, genocided any people, built death camps, or even killed off hundreds of political opponents. Reaching these people - and there are a ton of them - requires avoiding hyperbole. If you listen to interviews of Trump supporters there's certainy a significant number that fit the cultist description, but there are also a lot that are like, 'well I think he says a lot of weird stuff but overall I think he'll make my life better'. These people are possible to reach - but we're not gonna do it by describing Trump as a nazi. There's a ton of real stuff you can base yourself on, where they're actually gonna be on board with 'that's just fucked'.
Tbh I haven't really looked into Musk's tweets so I'm not commenting as much on him, but I also don't really think you can definitely state that that was a nazi rather than a fascist salute. And now I gotta go to bed so that'll have to be another time.
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Northern Ireland23745 Posts
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United States41938 Posts
On January 23 2025 07:54 blomsterjohn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 07:28 KwarK wrote:On January 23 2025 07:21 blomsterjohn wrote:On January 23 2025 04:35 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 02:40 oBlade wrote:On January 23 2025 02:01 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2025 00:54 Velr wrote:On January 23 2025 00:49 oBlade wrote:On January 22 2025 23:44 Zambrah wrote:On January 22 2025 21:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:
[quote]
I don't think arguing about whether the angle he extends his arm is more consistent with a nazi or a fascist salute is very productive. It can be either. Fascist is bad enough. Nah man, this is softening the language, when theyre flying Nazi salutes theyre Nazis, they're also fascists, but theyre choosing to do Nazi things and just calling them fascists is, in my mind, less harsh than calling them Nazis. Everyone knows what a Nazi is and that Nazi = Evil, but fascists are a little fuzzier, a little easier to talk people into liking. Elon Musk is a Nazi and anyone down with him Seig'ing the fuck out of that Heil like he did at the inauguration is also probably a fuckin' Nazi. Would that include the ADL and Jonathan Greenblatt as probable Nazis? They seemed to imply that he was awkwardly gesturing from enthusiasm, as you might expect an autistic person with a now older chubbier and less wieldy body to do. Perhaps it's yet another case of a long line of Judeo-Nazi apologism...? Yeah, all these authistic people constantly making accidental Nazi-Salutes are really getting on my nerves since quite some time. It just a nice showing of how much these organisations/people look after their own cushy positions over what's right. They could also just be wrong to be fair. Although it seems somewhat unlikely to me. Regardless, I think it’s pretty patently ridiculous to pull a ‘but the ADL said…’ on this occasion from folks who’ve mocked the ASL for calling out dog whistles and whatnot for years now. False negatives and false positives are fundamentally different errors. For the same reason you are hopefully more likely to criticize a doctor who gave antacids to someone complaining of chest pain and died of a heart attack, than you are to criticize a doctor who gave a patient a blood test, EKG, ultrasound, MRI, and angiogram who ended up only having heartburn. The mechanics of the selective invocation of the ADL you want to get at are more than the possible gotcha you are otherwise right to be initially skeptical about. There is no risk to the ADL, who created themselves to police antisemitism, calling an inanimate green frog an antisemitic hate symbol. It's not going to sue them for defamation and it's not going to have any negative consequences - it's safe. When you get a self-described pro-semite doing an apparent LITERAL Nazi salute, you'd think it would be the perfect opportunity to nail him to the wall, so to speak. Rather, they were extra careful to get it right this time. The deeper issue is that this part of the left cannot sincerely use the moral gravity of Nazism to criticize a political faction made up of alleged fascists who are all... Israel supporters, Zionists, Jewish, or all of the above (or indeed whose defenders are any or all of the above as in the ADL's case), when the left has rabid antisemitism. Antisemitism is fundamental to every iteration of Nazism. Calling supporters of Israel Nazi is as laugh-out-of-the-roomable as calling Hitler Jewish. It is a painful category mistake. In fact it's so absurd that I can only picture it as a bar insult among opposite aisle bigots. Like a skinhead saying to a guy Netanyahu is a Nazi and then him responding oh yeah? well Hitler loved Israel and ate matzo balls every day. And both of their faces turning red and going "you take that back." What Drone is correct on for reasons of basic decorum, is actually also correct in basic facts. ‘Is Elon Musk a Nazi?’ is a fundamentally different question from ‘did Elon Musk do a Nazi salute, and if so, why?’ For me it’s no, yes, and trolling/shitposting rather than some admiration for Nazism. This was/is exactly my thoughts on it too. I think he did it for the "lulz" (I just realized this term died out years and years ago) And yet his trolling is ideologically consistent. Not once has he trolled America by proposing that the workers seize the means of production. He just trolls America by suggesting that the dirty blood of immigrants represents an existential threat to the volk. Yeah there is that. I have a hard time finding the right words tbh, but I kinda see it as this internet rabbit-hole radicalized outrage mindset more than...apart of a political grouping (closest I got to something that hopefully makes sense)
Sure, he fell down the YouTube algorithm to 4chan to Nazi pipeline. A lot of insecure terminally online pathetic men do. We got to watch it happen over the years because he tweets every fucking thought he has.
But it doesn’t really matter that he got there by a weird rabbit hole, loads of modern neo Nazis were radicalized by the algorithm. It’ll give you stuff it thinks will make you angry and then slowly up the ante on the treadmill because it feeds on anger and getting angry online triggers a dopamine hit. It’s still the Nazi rabbit hole.
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On January 23 2025 08:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 07:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 07:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2025 07:22 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 06:30 Zambrah wrote:
Cant wait for Democrats to get back in power and show us all how hard it is to do things again Yeah, Democrats as a party aren't going to do shit but collaborate with fascist Republicans when they think it suits them. Makes them worse than worthless for staving off fascism. It's going to hit everyone at different times, but people are going to have to decide who they are and what kind of country they are going to live in. Trump is going to start snatching up kids at schools and putting them in concentration camps. fears intensified for some when the Trump administration announced Tuesday it would allow federal immigration agencies to make arrests at schools, churches and hospitals apnews.comAre Democrat voters like DPB going to collaborate or risk breaking the law to protect their students? Same for doctors, nurses, priests, pastors, rabbis, etc. Those are some immediate and obvious examples, but it's not just going to be the teachers, doctors, and religious leaders deciding if they will collaborate with fascists or resist them. All of us our going to be presented with our own moments and choices. I can only speak for myself and my circumstances: I am not privy to any information regarding my students' immigration/legal status. If something like this were to hypothetically play out in my public school, it wouldn't be a federal immigration agent barging into my personal classroom and fighting me to steal my student. A few times each week, my classroom phone will ring, and it'll be an administrator or secretary just asking me to pass on a message to a student, or asking me to tell the student to head over to a specific classroom or office, or something else that's not a big deal. Check in with attendance, pick up an item that was just dropped off by a parent, etc. Half the time, the caller doesn't even give me all the details. If a student was going to be permanently removed from school for whatever reason, that would be a conversation held by people way above my pay grade, and I would have no idea it was taking place. It might be. Maybe the person that makes that call refuses and the goons go to classroom. Or maybe they call you and instead of telling you to send the kid they tell you to warn them. Maybe you need to be working on a code with your fellow teachers/admins right now for if Trump's goons show up at your school. We're not going to be able to hide behind stuff like "above my paygrade" and "I had no idea" any better than Nazi collaborators did. Going to have to do better than that. I'm sorry but that's not how schools work lol. My school is locked, so non-students and non-employees can't enter without permission / appointment / giving the administration a heads up. Even if the agents were allowed in, but then somehow the school personnel "that makes that call refuses" and changes their minds, the agents aren't going to know where to go (good luck randomly searching hundreds of classrooms) and the school personnel would call for an immediate lockdown of all classrooms anyway. That's precisely what our monthly emergency drills are for: in case of an unwelcome intruder. And if school personnel secretly called me and told me to tell my student to run away (which, again, has 0% chance of ever happening), then of course I'd be happy to oblige and try to help the student escape safely. But none of this comports with reality; it's not even an interesting thought experiment because of how impossible it is. You're missing the point, and I'm confident it is on purpose. Luckily it demonstrates the problem I'm trying to highlight anyway.
Democrats and their ilk are incapable of drawing a line, so they will rationalize away their complicity in fascism with process, procedure, ignorance, lesser evilism, and the rest.
Basically Trump won't even need to have Democrats all jailed or killed or even prevent them from running. Democrats will be complicit, their voters will keep voting for them as "lesser evils", and fascists will rule.
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On January 23 2025 08:51 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 08:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2025 07:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 07:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2025 07:22 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 06:30 Zambrah wrote:
Cant wait for Democrats to get back in power and show us all how hard it is to do things again Yeah, Democrats as a party aren't going to do shit but collaborate with fascist Republicans when they think it suits them. Makes them worse than worthless for staving off fascism. It's going to hit everyone at different times, but people are going to have to decide who they are and what kind of country they are going to live in. Trump is going to start snatching up kids at schools and putting them in concentration camps. fears intensified for some when the Trump administration announced Tuesday it would allow federal immigration agencies to make arrests at schools, churches and hospitals apnews.comAre Democrat voters like DPB going to collaborate or risk breaking the law to protect their students? Same for doctors, nurses, priests, pastors, rabbis, etc. Those are some immediate and obvious examples, but it's not just going to be the teachers, doctors, and religious leaders deciding if they will collaborate with fascists or resist them. All of us our going to be presented with our own moments and choices. I can only speak for myself and my circumstances: I am not privy to any information regarding my students' immigration/legal status. If something like this were to hypothetically play out in my public school, it wouldn't be a federal immigration agent barging into my personal classroom and fighting me to steal my student. A few times each week, my classroom phone will ring, and it'll be an administrator or secretary just asking me to pass on a message to a student, or asking me to tell the student to head over to a specific classroom or office, or something else that's not a big deal. Check in with attendance, pick up an item that was just dropped off by a parent, etc. Half the time, the caller doesn't even give me all the details. If a student was going to be permanently removed from school for whatever reason, that would be a conversation held by people way above my pay grade, and I would have no idea it was taking place. It might be. Maybe the person that makes that call refuses and the goons go to classroom. Or maybe they call you and instead of telling you to send the kid they tell you to warn them. Maybe you need to be working on a code with your fellow teachers/admins right now for if Trump's goons show up at your school. We're not going to be able to hide behind stuff like "above my paygrade" and "I had no idea" any better than Nazi collaborators did. Going to have to do better than that. I'm sorry but that's not how schools work lol. My school is locked, so non-students and non-employees can't enter without permission / appointment / giving the administration a heads up. Even if the agents were allowed in, but then somehow the school personnel "that makes that call refuses" and changes their minds, the agents aren't going to know where to go (good luck randomly searching hundreds of classrooms) and the school personnel would call for an immediate lockdown of all classrooms anyway. That's precisely what our monthly emergency drills are for: in case of an unwelcome intruder. And if school personnel secretly called me and told me to tell my student to run away (which, again, has 0% chance of ever happening), then of course I'd be happy to oblige and try to help the student escape safely. But none of this comports with reality; it's not even an interesting thought experiment because of how impossible it is. You're missing the point, and I'm confident it is on purpose. Luckily it demonstrates the problem I'm trying to highlight anyway. Democrats and their ilk are incapable of drawing a line, so they will rationalize away their complicity in fascism with process, procedure, ignorance, lesser evilism, and the rest. Basically Trump won't even need to have Democrats all jailed or killed or even prevent them from running. Democrats will be complicit, their voters will keep voting for them as "lesser evils", and fascists will rule.
My underlined portion is a literal counterexample to your assertion, with the rest explaining why your hypothetical makes no sense and you're not going to be taken seriously unless you present a realistic scenario, but sure keep claiming what you want to claim.
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Northern Ireland23745 Posts
On January 23 2025 08:23 Liquid`Drone wrote:
When I say that fascist is more accurate than nazi it's not because I want to avoid hurting the fascist's feelings. Genuine fascists are bound to consider me an enemy because of my liberal and socialist tendencies and I don't think there's any common ground to be found.
The issue, rather, is two-fold.
Firstly, while nazism and fascism are obviously closely related, they also invoke some different associations. While, as with most ideologies, it's hard to pinpoint an exact definition and therefore there's bound to be some disagreements as to just what constitutes fascism, there are also some elements that need to be present. Namely - extreme nationalism, propensity towards considering the world a place of struggle/war rather than cooperation towards a better future for all, a creation of 'the other' that this struggle/war can be waged against, authoritarianism/anti-democracy/totalitarianism/persecution of opponents, action for the sake of action, focus on masculine values, personality cult, focus on tradition/traditional values.
Now, nazism shares all of these. However, where it distinguishes itself, is that it's genocidally anti-semitic and race-oriented. But this is actually a pretty significant distinction to make. The immediate imaginery associated with Hitler is one of starting the most brutal conflict of all human history and industrialized genocide. It's not like Mussolini and Franco were innocent in this regard, but these components are not inherent to fascism. And Hitler had had murdered - not just jailed - up to 1000 political opponents already in 1934.
I think it's fairly easy to point towards how elements in the description of fascism match up with Trump. So far - and hopefully this continues - the persecution of political opponents hasn't been even close to matching that of the more famous fascist regimes we've seen and I struggle picturing the US turning entirely totalitarian during the next 4 years - but there's already enough for me to find 'fascist-adjecent' a fitting term. Even so, I remain fairly convinced that Trump's America will be better than Mussolini's Italy, Franco's Spain or Pinochet's Chile, but that's not really relevant for whether the term fascist can be a fitting description.
However, none of the things that distinguish nazism from fascism seem to apply - at all. They just don't. Nazi isn't equivalent of 'guy who is into culture war macho bullshit and who ignorantly thinks Trump is going to solve all problems of america' - not even if you add 'hates immigrants' is it fitting. I honestly think 'wants to genocide the jews' is a necessary component. I mean sure there's been some evolution of the term and if some guy tattoos swastikas on himself and talks about the supremacy of the aryan race and is reasonably content with the jews simply being on a different continent - they don't actually have to die - then I'm fine with that guy being regarded as a nazi, but it's pretty specific.
That was reason 1 why I don't favor the term.
Reason 2 is that I interact with guys that both consider Hitler a fundamentally evil person, one of the worst to ever walk the earth, and who would've voted Trump over Harris, several times a week. When we're discussing stuff on the internet, or anywhere else, we shouldn't have 'convince the guy I'm talking to that he's wrong' as our goal (I mean it's a potential long-shot, but usually pretty unrealistic, certain individuals can be exceptions I guess). It's more about convincing the spectators. Saying Trump is Hitler/a nazi doesn't make the lean-trump individuals reflect upon their political affiliation, it makes them think 'that's nonsense', because Trump hasn't started any world war, genocided any people, built death camps, or even killed off hundreds of political opponents. Reaching these people - and there are a ton of them - requires avoiding hyperbole. If you listen to interviews of Trump supporters there's certainy a significant number that fit the cultist description, but there are also a lot that are like, 'well I think he says a lot of weird stuff but overall I think he'll make my life better'. These people are possible to reach - but we're not gonna do it by describing Trump as a nazi. There's a ton of real stuff you can base yourself on, where they're actually gonna be on board with 'that's just fucked'.
Tbh I haven't really looked into Musk's tweets so I'm not commenting as much on him, but I also don't really think you can definitely state that that was a nazi rather than a fascist salute. And now I gotta go to bed so that'll have to be another time.
Great post.
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On January 23 2025 08:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 08:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 08:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2025 07:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 07:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2025 07:22 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 06:30 Zambrah wrote:
Cant wait for Democrats to get back in power and show us all how hard it is to do things again Yeah, Democrats as a party aren't going to do shit but collaborate with fascist Republicans when they think it suits them. Makes them worse than worthless for staving off fascism. It's going to hit everyone at different times, but people are going to have to decide who they are and what kind of country they are going to live in. Trump is going to start snatching up kids at schools and putting them in concentration camps. fears intensified for some when the Trump administration announced Tuesday it would allow federal immigration agencies to make arrests at schools, churches and hospitals apnews.comAre Democrat voters like DPB going to collaborate or risk breaking the law to protect their students? Same for doctors, nurses, priests, pastors, rabbis, etc. Those are some immediate and obvious examples, but it's not just going to be the teachers, doctors, and religious leaders deciding if they will collaborate with fascists or resist them. All of us our going to be presented with our own moments and choices. I can only speak for myself and my circumstances: I am not privy to any information regarding my students' immigration/legal status. If something like this were to hypothetically play out in my public school, it wouldn't be a federal immigration agent barging into my personal classroom and fighting me to steal my student. A few times each week, my classroom phone will ring, and it'll be an administrator or secretary just asking me to pass on a message to a student, or asking me to tell the student to head over to a specific classroom or office, or something else that's not a big deal. Check in with attendance, pick up an item that was just dropped off by a parent, etc. Half the time, the caller doesn't even give me all the details. If a student was going to be permanently removed from school for whatever reason, that would be a conversation held by people way above my pay grade, and I would have no idea it was taking place. It might be. Maybe the person that makes that call refuses and the goons go to classroom. Or maybe they call you and instead of telling you to send the kid they tell you to warn them. Maybe you need to be working on a code with your fellow teachers/admins right now for if Trump's goons show up at your school. We're not going to be able to hide behind stuff like "above my paygrade" and "I had no idea" any better than Nazi collaborators did. Going to have to do better than that. I'm sorry but that's not how schools work lol. My school is locked, so non-students and non-employees can't enter without permission / appointment / giving the administration a heads up. Even if the agents were allowed in, but then somehow the school personnel "that makes that call refuses" and changes their minds, the agents aren't going to know where to go (good luck randomly searching hundreds of classrooms) and the school personnel would call for an immediate lockdown of all classrooms anyway. That's precisely what our monthly emergency drills are for: in case of an unwelcome intruder. And if school personnel secretly called me and told me to tell my student to run away (which, again, has 0% chance of ever happening), then of course I'd be happy to oblige and try to help the student escape safely. But none of this comports with reality; it's not even an interesting thought experiment because of how impossible it is. You're missing the point, and I'm confident it is on purpose. Luckily it demonstrates the problem I'm trying to highlight anyway. Democrats and their ilk are incapable of drawing a line, so they will rationalize away their complicity in fascism with process, procedure, ignorance, lesser evilism, and the rest. Basically Trump won't even need to have Democrats all jailed or killed or even prevent them from running. Democrats will be complicit, their voters will keep voting for them as "lesser evils", and fascists will rule. My underlined portion is a literal counterexample to your assertion, with the rest explaining why your hypothetical makes no sense and you're not going to be taken seriously unless you present a realistic scenario, but sure keep claiming what you want to claim. Are you trying to say you would draw your line at Trump's immigration agents coming into your school, taking your students, and putting them in camps? That's where you would prioritize doing what is right over what is legal and risk bearing the consequences for doing such?
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United States24565 Posts
I spent much of my morning assessing impact from new acting Secretary of Energy direction.
Hard to tell (wording is as nebulous as the White House direction to terminate "remote work"), but it looks like some of my work will need to get signed, not by me, but by the acting Secretary of Energy. Efficiency!
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On January 23 2025 09:07 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 08:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2025 08:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 08:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2025 07:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 07:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2025 07:22 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 06:30 Zambrah wrote:
Cant wait for Democrats to get back in power and show us all how hard it is to do things again Yeah, Democrats as a party aren't going to do shit but collaborate with fascist Republicans when they think it suits them. Makes them worse than worthless for staving off fascism. It's going to hit everyone at different times, but people are going to have to decide who they are and what kind of country they are going to live in. Trump is going to start snatching up kids at schools and putting them in concentration camps. fears intensified for some when the Trump administration announced Tuesday it would allow federal immigration agencies to make arrests at schools, churches and hospitals apnews.comAre Democrat voters like DPB going to collaborate or risk breaking the law to protect their students? Same for doctors, nurses, priests, pastors, rabbis, etc. Those are some immediate and obvious examples, but it's not just going to be the teachers, doctors, and religious leaders deciding if they will collaborate with fascists or resist them. All of us our going to be presented with our own moments and choices. I can only speak for myself and my circumstances: I am not privy to any information regarding my students' immigration/legal status. If something like this were to hypothetically play out in my public school, it wouldn't be a federal immigration agent barging into my personal classroom and fighting me to steal my student. A few times each week, my classroom phone will ring, and it'll be an administrator or secretary just asking me to pass on a message to a student, or asking me to tell the student to head over to a specific classroom or office, or something else that's not a big deal. Check in with attendance, pick up an item that was just dropped off by a parent, etc. Half the time, the caller doesn't even give me all the details. If a student was going to be permanently removed from school for whatever reason, that would be a conversation held by people way above my pay grade, and I would have no idea it was taking place. It might be. Maybe the person that makes that call refuses and the goons go to classroom. Or maybe they call you and instead of telling you to send the kid they tell you to warn them. Maybe you need to be working on a code with your fellow teachers/admins right now for if Trump's goons show up at your school. We're not going to be able to hide behind stuff like "above my paygrade" and "I had no idea" any better than Nazi collaborators did. Going to have to do better than that. I'm sorry but that's not how schools work lol. My school is locked, so non-students and non-employees can't enter without permission / appointment / giving the administration a heads up. Even if the agents were allowed in, but then somehow the school personnel "that makes that call refuses" and changes their minds, the agents aren't going to know where to go (good luck randomly searching hundreds of classrooms) and the school personnel would call for an immediate lockdown of all classrooms anyway. That's precisely what our monthly emergency drills are for: in case of an unwelcome intruder. And if school personnel secretly called me and told me to tell my student to run away (which, again, has 0% chance of ever happening), then of course I'd be happy to oblige and try to help the student escape safely. But none of this comports with reality; it's not even an interesting thought experiment because of how impossible it is. You're missing the point, and I'm confident it is on purpose. Luckily it demonstrates the problem I'm trying to highlight anyway. Democrats and their ilk are incapable of drawing a line, so they will rationalize away their complicity in fascism with process, procedure, ignorance, lesser evilism, and the rest. Basically Trump won't even need to have Democrats all jailed or killed or even prevent them from running. Democrats will be complicit, their voters will keep voting for them as "lesser evils", and fascists will rule. My underlined portion is a literal counterexample to your assertion, with the rest explaining why your hypothetical makes no sense and you're not going to be taken seriously unless you present a realistic scenario, but sure keep claiming what you want to claim. Are you trying to say you would draw your line at Trump's immigration agents coming into your school, taking your students, and putting them in camps? That's where you would prioritize doing what is right over what is legal and risk bearing the consequences for doing such?
No, I didn't draw or mention a line. I just responded to you asking me if I would be complicit in allowing my student to be taken away by Trump's immigration agents. I said no. I also explained how it's not a decision I'd ever really need to make, because of how my New Jersey school operates. But still, no.
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Northern Ireland23745 Posts
On January 23 2025 09:14 micronesia wrote:
I spent much of my morning assessing impact from new acting Secretary of Energy direction.
Hard to tell (wording is as nebulous as the White House direction to terminate "remote work"), but it looks like some of my work will need to get signed, not by me, but by the acting Secretary of Energy. Efficiency!
It’s almost as efficient as having 2 Tsars for the Department of Government Efficiency!
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United States41938 Posts
On January 23 2025 08:23 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Reason 2 is that I interact with guys that both consider Hitler a fundamentally evil person, one of the worst to ever walk the earth, and who would've voted Trump over Harris, several times a week.
They'd have voted for Hitler in 1933 too. Nobody sees themselves as evil.
A lot of people won't say they agree with the literally Hitler, the idea we have today of the default example of evil, but if he shaved the moustache they're fully on board because then it's not that comic book cartoon idea of evil, it's just someone who wants to fix the injustices of Versailles and make Germany great again.
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United States41938 Posts
That one I’m a little okay with because they held him in solitary in a Supermax for a decade, despite him being basically harmless without a computer. It was a cruel, excessive, albeit not unusual punishment.
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On January 23 2025 09:19 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 09:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 08:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2025 08:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 08:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2025 07:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 07:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2025 07:22 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 06:30 Zambrah wrote:
Cant wait for Democrats to get back in power and show us all how hard it is to do things again Yeah, Democrats as a party aren't going to do shit but collaborate with fascist Republicans when they think it suits them. Makes them worse than worthless for staving off fascism. It's going to hit everyone at different times, but people are going to have to decide who they are and what kind of country they are going to live in. Trump is going to start snatching up kids at schools and putting them in concentration camps. fears intensified for some when the Trump administration announced Tuesday it would allow federal immigration agencies to make arrests at schools, churches and hospitals apnews.comAre Democrat voters like DPB going to collaborate or risk breaking the law to protect their students? Same for doctors, nurses, priests, pastors, rabbis, etc. Those are some immediate and obvious examples, but it's not just going to be the teachers, doctors, and religious leaders deciding if they will collaborate with fascists or resist them. All of us our going to be presented with our own moments and choices. I can only speak for myself and my circumstances: I am not privy to any information regarding my students' immigration/legal status. If something like this were to hypothetically play out in my public school, it wouldn't be a federal immigration agent barging into my personal classroom and fighting me to steal my student. A few times each week, my classroom phone will ring, and it'll be an administrator or secretary just asking me to pass on a message to a student, or asking me to tell the student to head over to a specific classroom or office, or something else that's not a big deal. Check in with attendance, pick up an item that was just dropped off by a parent, etc. Half the time, the caller doesn't even give me all the details. If a student was going to be permanently removed from school for whatever reason, that would be a conversation held by people way above my pay grade, and I would have no idea it was taking place. It might be. Maybe the person that makes that call refuses and the goons go to classroom. Or maybe they call you and instead of telling you to send the kid they tell you to warn them. Maybe you need to be working on a code with your fellow teachers/admins right now for if Trump's goons show up at your school. We're not going to be able to hide behind stuff like "above my paygrade" and "I had no idea" any better than Nazi collaborators did. Going to have to do better than that. I'm sorry but that's not how schools work lol. My school is locked, so non-students and non-employees can't enter without permission / appointment / giving the administration a heads up. Even if the agents were allowed in, but then somehow the school personnel "that makes that call refuses" and changes their minds, the agents aren't going to know where to go (good luck randomly searching hundreds of classrooms) and the school personnel would call for an immediate lockdown of all classrooms anyway. That's precisely what our monthly emergency drills are for: in case of an unwelcome intruder. And if school personnel secretly called me and told me to tell my student to run away (which, again, has 0% chance of ever happening), then of course I'd be happy to oblige and try to help the student escape safely. But none of this comports with reality; it's not even an interesting thought experiment because of how impossible it is. You're missing the point, and I'm confident it is on purpose. Luckily it demonstrates the problem I'm trying to highlight anyway. Democrats and their ilk are incapable of drawing a line, so they will rationalize away their complicity in fascism with process, procedure, ignorance, lesser evilism, and the rest. Basically Trump won't even need to have Democrats all jailed or killed or even prevent them from running. Democrats will be complicit, their voters will keep voting for them as "lesser evils", and fascists will rule. My underlined portion is a literal counterexample to your assertion, with the rest explaining why your hypothetical makes no sense and you're not going to be taken seriously unless you present a realistic scenario, but sure keep claiming what you want to claim. Are you trying to say you would draw your line at Trump's immigration agents coming into your school, taking your students, and putting them in camps? That's where you would prioritize doing what is right over what is legal and risk bearing the consequences for doing such? No, I didn't draw or mention a line. I just responded to you asking me if I would be complicit in allowing my student to be taken away by Trump's immigration agents. I said no. I also explained how it's not a decision I'd ever really need to make, because of how my New Jersey school operates. But still, no. So yeah, it seems you're doing exactly what I described.
Democrats and their ilk are incapable of drawing a line, so they will rationalize away their complicity in fascism with process, procedure, ignorance, lesser evilism, and the rest.
Basically Trump won't even need to have Democrats all jailed or killed or even prevent them from running. Democrats will be complicit, their voters will keep voting for them as "lesser evils", and fascists will rule.
Trump could send his goons to your school, snatch up kids out of your classroom and everyone from the teachers to the top administrator will point at process and procedure, ignorance, and the rest to rationalize their complicity. As you insist, if any kids were taken from your class it couldn't be your fault and you can't be complicit. You'd be "just doing my job"
That's part of how fascism takes hold. I don't mean it as a personal judgement btw. I'm just saying that's how it works. It ostensibly diffuses responsibility in such a way that a society can facilitate fascism without it actually being any of our faults.
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United States41938 Posts
On January 23 2025 10:27 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 09:19 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2025 09:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 08:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2025 08:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 08:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2025 07:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 07:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2025 07:22 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 06:30 Zambrah wrote:
Cant wait for Democrats to get back in power and show us all how hard it is to do things again Yeah, Democrats as a party aren't going to do shit but collaborate with fascist Republicans when they think it suits them. Makes them worse than worthless for staving off fascism. It's going to hit everyone at different times, but people are going to have to decide who they are and what kind of country they are going to live in. Trump is going to start snatching up kids at schools and putting them in concentration camps. fears intensified for some when the Trump administration announced Tuesday it would allow federal immigration agencies to make arrests at schools, churches and hospitals apnews.comAre Democrat voters like DPB going to collaborate or risk breaking the law to protect their students? Same for doctors, nurses, priests, pastors, rabbis, etc. Those are some immediate and obvious examples, but it's not just going to be the teachers, doctors, and religious leaders deciding if they will collaborate with fascists or resist them. All of us our going to be presented with our own moments and choices. I can only speak for myself and my circumstances: I am not privy to any information regarding my students' immigration/legal status. If something like this were to hypothetically play out in my public school, it wouldn't be a federal immigration agent barging into my personal classroom and fighting me to steal my student. A few times each week, my classroom phone will ring, and it'll be an administrator or secretary just asking me to pass on a message to a student, or asking me to tell the student to head over to a specific classroom or office, or something else that's not a big deal. Check in with attendance, pick up an item that was just dropped off by a parent, etc. Half the time, the caller doesn't even give me all the details. If a student was going to be permanently removed from school for whatever reason, that would be a conversation held by people way above my pay grade, and I would have no idea it was taking place. It might be. Maybe the person that makes that call refuses and the goons go to classroom. Or maybe they call you and instead of telling you to send the kid they tell you to warn them. Maybe you need to be working on a code with your fellow teachers/admins right now for if Trump's goons show up at your school. We're not going to be able to hide behind stuff like "above my paygrade" and "I had no idea" any better than Nazi collaborators did. Going to have to do better than that. I'm sorry but that's not how schools work lol. My school is locked, so non-students and non-employees can't enter without permission / appointment / giving the administration a heads up. Even if the agents were allowed in, but then somehow the school personnel "that makes that call refuses" and changes their minds, the agents aren't going to know where to go (good luck randomly searching hundreds of classrooms) and the school personnel would call for an immediate lockdown of all classrooms anyway. That's precisely what our monthly emergency drills are for: in case of an unwelcome intruder. And if school personnel secretly called me and told me to tell my student to run away (which, again, has 0% chance of ever happening), then of course I'd be happy to oblige and try to help the student escape safely. But none of this comports with reality; it's not even an interesting thought experiment because of how impossible it is. You're missing the point, and I'm confident it is on purpose. Luckily it demonstrates the problem I'm trying to highlight anyway. Democrats and their ilk are incapable of drawing a line, so they will rationalize away their complicity in fascism with process, procedure, ignorance, lesser evilism, and the rest. Basically Trump won't even need to have Democrats all jailed or killed or even prevent them from running. Democrats will be complicit, their voters will keep voting for them as "lesser evils", and fascists will rule. My underlined portion is a literal counterexample to your assertion, with the rest explaining why your hypothetical makes no sense and you're not going to be taken seriously unless you present a realistic scenario, but sure keep claiming what you want to claim. Are you trying to say you would draw your line at Trump's immigration agents coming into your school, taking your students, and putting them in camps? That's where you would prioritize doing what is right over what is legal and risk bearing the consequences for doing such? No, I didn't draw or mention a line. I just responded to you asking me if I would be complicit in allowing my student to be taken away by Trump's immigration agents. I said no. I also explained how it's not a decision I'd ever really need to make, because of how my New Jersey school operates. But still, no. So yeah, it seems you're doing exactly what I described. Show nested quote +Democrats and their ilk are incapable of drawing a line, so they will rationalize away their complicity in fascism with process, procedure, ignorance, lesser evilism, and the rest.
Basically Trump won't even need to have Democrats all jailed or killed or even prevent them from running. Democrats will be complicit, their voters will keep voting for them as "lesser evils", and fascists will rule. Trump could send his goons to your school, snatch up kids out of your classroom and everyone from the teachers to the top administrator will point at process and procedure, ignorance, and the rest to rationalize their complicity. As you insist, if any kids were taken from your class it couldn't be your fault and you can't be complicit. You'd be "just doing my job" That's part of how fascism takes hold. I don't mean it as a personal judgement btw. I'm just saying that's how it works. It ostensibly diffuses responsibility in such a way that a society can facilitate fascism without it actually being any of our faults.
In this story you’re imagining where other people are complicit what were you doing to stop it? Or are you as ineffectual in your imagination as you are outside of it?
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On January 23 2025 10:30 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 10:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 09:19 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2025 09:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 08:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2025 08:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 08:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2025 07:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 07:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2025 07:22 GreenHorizons wrote:[quote] Yeah, Democrats as a party aren't going to do shit but collaborate with fascist Republicans when they think it suits them. Makes them worse than worthless for staving off fascism. It's going to hit everyone at different times, but people are going to have to decide who they are and what kind of country they are going to live in. Trump is going to start snatching up kids at schools and putting them in concentration camps. [quote] apnews.comAre Democrat voters like DPB going to collaborate or risk breaking the law to protect their students? Same for doctors, nurses, priests, pastors, rabbis, etc. Those are some immediate and obvious examples, but it's not just going to be the teachers, doctors, and religious leaders deciding if they will collaborate with fascists or resist them. All of us our going to be presented with our own moments and choices. I can only speak for myself and my circumstances: I am not privy to any information regarding my students' immigration/legal status. If something like this were to hypothetically play out in my public school, it wouldn't be a federal immigration agent barging into my personal classroom and fighting me to steal my student. A few times each week, my classroom phone will ring, and it'll be an administrator or secretary just asking me to pass on a message to a student, or asking me to tell the student to head over to a specific classroom or office, or something else that's not a big deal. Check in with attendance, pick up an item that was just dropped off by a parent, etc. Half the time, the caller doesn't even give me all the details. If a student was going to be permanently removed from school for whatever reason, that would be a conversation held by people way above my pay grade, and I would have no idea it was taking place. It might be. Maybe the person that makes that call refuses and the goons go to classroom. Or maybe they call you and instead of telling you to send the kid they tell you to warn them. Maybe you need to be working on a code with your fellow teachers/admins right now for if Trump's goons show up at your school. We're not going to be able to hide behind stuff like "above my paygrade" and "I had no idea" any better than Nazi collaborators did. Going to have to do better than that. I'm sorry but that's not how schools work lol. My school is locked, so non-students and non-employees can't enter without permission / appointment / giving the administration a heads up. Even if the agents were allowed in, but then somehow the school personnel "that makes that call refuses" and changes their minds, the agents aren't going to know where to go (good luck randomly searching hundreds of classrooms) and the school personnel would call for an immediate lockdown of all classrooms anyway. That's precisely what our monthly emergency drills are for: in case of an unwelcome intruder. And if school personnel secretly called me and told me to tell my student to run away (which, again, has 0% chance of ever happening), then of course I'd be happy to oblige and try to help the student escape safely. But none of this comports with reality; it's not even an interesting thought experiment because of how impossible it is. You're missing the point, and I'm confident it is on purpose. Luckily it demonstrates the problem I'm trying to highlight anyway. Democrats and their ilk are incapable of drawing a line, so they will rationalize away their complicity in fascism with process, procedure, ignorance, lesser evilism, and the rest. Basically Trump won't even need to have Democrats all jailed or killed or even prevent them from running. Democrats will be complicit, their voters will keep voting for them as "lesser evils", and fascists will rule. My underlined portion is a literal counterexample to your assertion, with the rest explaining why your hypothetical makes no sense and you're not going to be taken seriously unless you present a realistic scenario, but sure keep claiming what you want to claim. Are you trying to say you would draw your line at Trump's immigration agents coming into your school, taking your students, and putting them in camps? That's where you would prioritize doing what is right over what is legal and risk bearing the consequences for doing such? No, I didn't draw or mention a line. I just responded to you asking me if I would be complicit in allowing my student to be taken away by Trump's immigration agents. I said no. I also explained how it's not a decision I'd ever really need to make, because of how my New Jersey school operates. But still, no. So yeah, it seems you're doing exactly what I described. Democrats and their ilk are incapable of drawing a line, so they will rationalize away their complicity in fascism with process, procedure, ignorance, lesser evilism, and the rest.
Basically Trump won't even need to have Democrats all jailed or killed or even prevent them from running. Democrats will be complicit, their voters will keep voting for them as "lesser evils", and fascists will rule. Trump could send his goons to your school, snatch up kids out of your classroom and everyone from the teachers to the top administrator will point at process and procedure, ignorance, and the rest to rationalize their complicity. As you insist, if any kids were taken from your class it couldn't be your fault and you can't be complicit. You'd be "just doing my job" That's part of how fascism takes hold. I don't mean it as a personal judgement btw. I'm just saying that's how it works. It ostensibly diffuses responsibility in such a way that a society can facilitate fascism without it actually being any of our faults. In this [reality we're experiencing] where other people are complicit [in genocide and fascism] what [are] you doing to stop it? + Show Spoiler +Or are you as ineffectual in your imagination as you are outside of it?
Had to fix that a bit. I'm practicing and advocating revolutionary socialism. When more of us are we'll be in much better shape to stand up to fascism.
Why people that support Democrats refuse to do that is what I'm trying to hold up to the light for examination. The consequences of not doing so is what I'm trying to describe and prevent.
While posting here is part of that, I don't measure my effectualness by my interactions here. That said....
Gimme a handful of posters to commit for ~6 months to actually trying to be revolutionary socialists in good faith (what do any of you have to lose, Democrats won't even be functionally active until midterms and you can go back to being a Dem/lib/whatever then) and I would consider that effectual for everyone involved.
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On January 23 2025 10:27 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 09:19 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2025 09:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 08:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2025 08:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 08:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2025 07:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 07:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2025 07:22 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 06:30 Zambrah wrote:
Cant wait for Democrats to get back in power and show us all how hard it is to do things again Yeah, Democrats as a party aren't going to do shit but collaborate with fascist Republicans when they think it suits them. Makes them worse than worthless for staving off fascism. It's going to hit everyone at different times, but people are going to have to decide who they are and what kind of country they are going to live in. Trump is going to start snatching up kids at schools and putting them in concentration camps. fears intensified for some when the Trump administration announced Tuesday it would allow federal immigration agencies to make arrests at schools, churches and hospitals apnews.comAre Democrat voters like DPB going to collaborate or risk breaking the law to protect their students? Same for doctors, nurses, priests, pastors, rabbis, etc. Those are some immediate and obvious examples, but it's not just going to be the teachers, doctors, and religious leaders deciding if they will collaborate with fascists or resist them. All of us our going to be presented with our own moments and choices. I can only speak for myself and my circumstances: I am not privy to any information regarding my students' immigration/legal status. If something like this were to hypothetically play out in my public school, it wouldn't be a federal immigration agent barging into my personal classroom and fighting me to steal my student. A few times each week, my classroom phone will ring, and it'll be an administrator or secretary just asking me to pass on a message to a student, or asking me to tell the student to head over to a specific classroom or office, or something else that's not a big deal. Check in with attendance, pick up an item that was just dropped off by a parent, etc. Half the time, the caller doesn't even give me all the details. If a student was going to be permanently removed from school for whatever reason, that would be a conversation held by people way above my pay grade, and I would have no idea it was taking place. It might be. Maybe the person that makes that call refuses and the goons go to classroom. Or maybe they call you and instead of telling you to send the kid they tell you to warn them. Maybe you need to be working on a code with your fellow teachers/admins right now for if Trump's goons show up at your school. We're not going to be able to hide behind stuff like "above my paygrade" and "I had no idea" any better than Nazi collaborators did. Going to have to do better than that. I'm sorry but that's not how schools work lol. My school is locked, so non-students and non-employees can't enter without permission / appointment / giving the administration a heads up. Even if the agents were allowed in, but then somehow the school personnel "that makes that call refuses" and changes their minds, the agents aren't going to know where to go (good luck randomly searching hundreds of classrooms) and the school personnel would call for an immediate lockdown of all classrooms anyway. That's precisely what our monthly emergency drills are for: in case of an unwelcome intruder. And if school personnel secretly called me and told me to tell my student to run away (which, again, has 0% chance of ever happening), then of course I'd be happy to oblige and try to help the student escape safely. But none of this comports with reality; it's not even an interesting thought experiment because of how impossible it is. You're missing the point, and I'm confident it is on purpose. Luckily it demonstrates the problem I'm trying to highlight anyway. Democrats and their ilk are incapable of drawing a line, so they will rationalize away their complicity in fascism with process, procedure, ignorance, lesser evilism, and the rest. Basically Trump won't even need to have Democrats all jailed or killed or even prevent them from running. Democrats will be complicit, their voters will keep voting for them as "lesser evils", and fascists will rule. My underlined portion is a literal counterexample to your assertion, with the rest explaining why your hypothetical makes no sense and you're not going to be taken seriously unless you present a realistic scenario, but sure keep claiming what you want to claim. Are you trying to say you would draw your line at Trump's immigration agents coming into your school, taking your students, and putting them in camps? That's where you would prioritize doing what is right over what is legal and risk bearing the consequences for doing such? No, I didn't draw or mention a line. I just responded to you asking me if I would be complicit in allowing my student to be taken away by Trump's immigration agents. I said no. I also explained how it's not a decision I'd ever really need to make, because of how my New Jersey school operates. But still, no. So yeah, it seems you're doing exactly what I described. Show nested quote +Democrats and their ilk are incapable of drawing a line, so they will rationalize away their complicity in fascism with process, procedure, ignorance, lesser evilism, and the rest.
Basically Trump won't even need to have Democrats all jailed or killed or even prevent them from running. Democrats will be complicit, their voters will keep voting for them as "lesser evils", and fascists will rule. Trump could send his goons to your school, snatch up kids out of your classroom and everyone from the teachers to the top administrator will point at process and procedure, ignorance, and the rest to rationalize their complicity. As you insist, if any kids were taken from your class it couldn't be your fault and you can't be complicit. You'd be "just doing my job"That's part of how fascism takes hold. I don't mean it as a personal judgement btw. I'm just saying that's how it works. It ostensibly diffuses responsibility in such a way that a society can facilitate fascism without it actually being any of our faults.
There's no possible good-faith interpretation of my responses that leads to this conclusion. If you're not going to read my answers or believe me, then please don't bother asking me a direct question.
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United States41938 Posts
On January 23 2025 11:02 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2025 10:30 KwarK wrote:On January 23 2025 10:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 09:19 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2025 09:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 08:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2025 08:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 08:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2025 07:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 23 2025 07:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
I can only speak for myself and my circumstances: I am not privy to any information regarding my students' immigration/legal status. If something like this were to hypothetically play out in my public school, it wouldn't be a federal immigration agent barging into my personal classroom and fighting me to steal my student.
A few times each week, my classroom phone will ring, and it'll be an administrator or secretary just asking me to pass on a message to a student, or asking me to tell the student to head over to a specific classroom or office, or something else that's not a big deal. Check in with attendance, pick up an item that was just dropped off by a parent, etc. Half the time, the caller doesn't even give me all the details. If a student was going to be permanently removed from school for whatever reason, that would be a conversation held by people way above my pay grade, and I would have no idea it was taking place. It might be. Maybe the person that makes that call refuses and the goons go to classroom. Or maybe they call you and instead of telling you to send the kid they tell you to warn them. Maybe you need to be working on a code with your fellow teachers/admins right now for if Trump's goons show up at your school. We're not going to be able to hide behind stuff like "above my paygrade" and "I had no idea" any better than Nazi collaborators did. Going to have to do better than that. I'm sorry but that's not how schools work lol. My school is locked, so non-students and non-employees can't enter without permission / appointment / giving the administration a heads up. Even if the agents were allowed in, but then somehow the school personnel "that makes that call refuses" and changes their minds, the agents aren't going to know where to go (good luck randomly searching hundreds of classrooms) and the school personnel would call for an immediate lockdown of all classrooms anyway. That's precisely what our monthly emergency drills are for: in case of an unwelcome intruder. And if school personnel secretly called me and told me to tell my student to run away (which, again, has 0% chance of ever happening), then of course I'd be happy to oblige and try to help the student escape safely. But none of this comports with reality; it's not even an interesting thought experiment because of how impossible it is. You're missing the point, and I'm confident it is on purpose. Luckily it demonstrates the problem I'm trying to highlight anyway. Democrats and their ilk are incapable of drawing a line, so they will rationalize away their complicity in fascism with process, procedure, ignorance, lesser evilism, and the rest. Basically Trump won't even need to have Democrats all jailed or killed or even prevent them from running. Democrats will be complicit, their voters will keep voting for them as "lesser evils", and fascists will rule. My underlined portion is a literal counterexample to your assertion, with the rest explaining why your hypothetical makes no sense and you're not going to be taken seriously unless you present a realistic scenario, but sure keep claiming what you want to claim. Are you trying to say you would draw your line at Trump's immigration agents coming into your school, taking your students, and putting them in camps? That's where you would prioritize doing what is right over what is legal and risk bearing the consequences for doing such? No, I didn't draw or mention a line. I just responded to you asking me if I would be complicit in allowing my student to be taken away by Trump's immigration agents. I said no. I also explained how it's not a decision I'd ever really need to make, because of how my New Jersey school operates. But still, no. So yeah, it seems you're doing exactly what I described. Democrats and their ilk are incapable of drawing a line, so they will rationalize away their complicity in fascism with process, procedure, ignorance, lesser evilism, and the rest.
Basically Trump won't even need to have Democrats all jailed or killed or even prevent them from running. Democrats will be complicit, their voters will keep voting for them as "lesser evils", and fascists will rule. Trump could send his goons to your school, snatch up kids out of your classroom and everyone from the teachers to the top administrator will point at process and procedure, ignorance, and the rest to rationalize their complicity. As you insist, if any kids were taken from your class it couldn't be your fault and you can't be complicit. You'd be "just doing my job" That's part of how fascism takes hold. I don't mean it as a personal judgement btw. I'm just saying that's how it works. It ostensibly diffuses responsibility in such a way that a society can facilitate fascism without it actually being any of our faults. In this [reality we're experiencing] where other people are complicit [in genocide and fascism] what [are] you doing to stop it? + Show Spoiler +Or are you as ineffectual in your imagination as you are outside of it? Had to fix that a bit. I'm practicing and advocating revolutionary socialism. When more of us are we'll be in much better shape to stand up to fascism. Why people that support Democrats refuse to do that is what I'm trying to hold up to the light for examination. The consequences of not doing so is what I'm trying to describe and prevent. While posting here is part of that, I don't measure my effectualness by my interactions here. That said.... Gimme a handful of posters to commit for ~6 months to actually trying to be revolutionary socialists in good faith (what do any of you have to lose, Democrats won't even be functionally active until midterms and you can go back to being a Dem/lib/whatever then) and I would consider that effectual for everyone involved.
I feel like you didn't answer the question.
The year is 2026 and the gazpacho, led by MTG, have come to DPB's school. He's cowering in the corner wetting himself as they round the children up and put them onto cattle carts headed east. Where are you? In the school dual wielding pistols or staging an ambush on the railway later?
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On January 23 2025 06:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:It looks like Donald Trump is pushing his bigoted agenda a little bit further every day; he just rescinded a guard rail that protected against discriminatory employment practices. President Lyndon B. Johnson signed Executive Order 11246 in 1965, which "prohibited 'federal contractors and federally assisted construction contractors and subcontractors, who do over $10,000 in Government business in one year, from discriminating in employment decisions on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.'[1]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_11246 That's gone now - Trump is chipping away at civil rights, little by little - though fortunately there are other rules and laws in place to protect employees from discrimination. Hopefully Trump and his Republican Congress don't repeal them all.
What is discriminating in a private company hiring what (who) they believe is the best employee for them?
This is kind of a big talking point here too and i have never really understood why private companies should be "positively discriminating" (which it kind of is if government interferes in their recruitment process). That is, if i understood the exec order correctly..
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United States41938 Posts
You didn’t. The previous state was you can hire the best candidate, but you can’t hire the second best candidate because the best candidate was African American and you’re a racist. He got rid of that rule.
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On January 23 2025 06:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:It looks like Donald Trump is pushing his bigoted agenda a little bit further every day; he just rescinded a guard rail that protected against discriminatory employment practices. President Lyndon B. Johnson signed Executive Order 11246 in 1965, which "prohibited 'federal contractors and federally assisted construction contractors and subcontractors, who do over $10,000 in Government business in one year, from discriminating in employment decisions on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.'[1]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_11246 That's gone now - Trump is chipping away at civil rights, little by little - though fortunately there are other rules and laws in place to protect employees from discrimination. Hopefully Trump and his Republican Congress don't repeal them all.
Wow that 'most qualified person' thing didn't last very long did it?
One day and we're back to 'Companies should hire the most qualified white men, and no other considerations matter'.
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EPT
