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On January 21 2025 13:23 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:+ Show Spoiler +nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. Show nested quote +On January 21 2025 08:41 Zambrah wrote:On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:
nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. Its shameful were gonna have to do it again, but maybe this time we won't be so gracious. Noticing a lot of problems are from being nice to really bad people, should've cracked down harder on the Confederate South post war, should have cracked down harder on the Nazis. These are valid sentiments. Questions that need answering: 1. Where's the line/who is going to draw it? 2. Who do people imagine is going to do the killing of the fascists when they cross it? I don't think anyone believes it is going to be Democrats or that Democrats will let anyone else do it in their stead.
Definitely gonna be a split within the Democrats as plenty of them are gonna absolutely side with the fascists by virtue of them being "legitimate" (legitimate in this case just meaning In Power) I think the rank and file members will probably be less involved in the kowtowing than the politicians, a sizeable chunk of whom I'd imagine just siding the fascists first chance they get if they think itll benefit them in any way.
As for who is gonna start killing fascists, thats a tough one, I imagine it'll start with some massive atrocity, a lot of handwringing at the start, a lot of justification about why violence isnt the answer, and then I think it'll wind up in broader scale war-type stuff. Obviously the most marginalized communities will be doing the work at the start as they have to defend themselves, I think a majority of society will eventually fight the fascists though.
This is all inane postulation on my part, I'm completely guesstimating based on history and my own thoughts about the state of the average person in the year of our dark lord 2025.
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On January 21 2025 13:36 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2025 13:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:+ Show Spoiler +nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. On January 21 2025 08:41 Zambrah wrote:On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:
nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. Its shameful were gonna have to do it again, but maybe this time we won't be so gracious. Noticing a lot of problems are from being nice to really bad people, should've cracked down harder on the Confederate South post war, should have cracked down harder on the Nazis. These are valid sentiments. Questions that need answering: 1. Where's the line/who is going to draw it? 2. Who do people imagine is going to do the killing of the fascists when they cross it? I don't think anyone believes it is going to be Democrats or that Democrats will let anyone else do it in their stead. Definitely gonna be a split within the Democrats as plenty of them are gonna absolutely side with the fascists by virtue of them being "legitimate" (legitimate in this case just meaning In Power) I think the rank and file members will probably be less involved in the kowtowing than the politicians, a sizeable chunk of whom I'd imagine just siding the fascists first chance they get if they think itll benefit them in any way. As for who is gonna start killing fascists, thats a tough one, I imagine it'll start with some massive atrocity, a lot of handwringing at the start, a lot of justification about why violence isnt the answer, and then I think it'll wind up in broader scale war-type stuff. Obviously the most marginalized communities will be doing the work at the start as they have to defend themselves, I think a majority of society will eventually fight the fascists though. This is all inane postulation on my part, I'm completely guesstimating based on history and my own thoughts about the state of the average person in the year of our dark lord 2025.
I mean it wasn't the Germans that stopped the rise of fascism in the ~1920's-40's, I don't think it'll be USians stopping it in the ~2020's-40's.
Libs/Dems/Republicans can't draw a line (they've demonstrated bipartisan support for genocide already) and still can't even imagine where they'd draw one today. Presumably some of them will still be alive and working as fascists while for some reason (probably personal, like them being next in the line of people targeted by fascists) being receptive to aiding an outside party in subversion.
Then (presuming the fascists lose) the outside party will have to look at that subverter that worked as a fascist until the fascists started to target people like them and decide whether they deserve clemency or condemnation.
"Lesser evilism" will be a sort of modern version of "just following orders" when that time comes.
EDIT: So were still left wondering where the line will be drawn and who will draw/enforce it.
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You cant blame lesser evilism when your people have an awesome track record of blatantly voting and supporting the bigger evil.
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What a shit show. Unfortunately I don't see European politicians widely calling things out. They will try to pin this on Elon only. However, I understand that they do not want to deal with our own far right as they are getting increasingly popular.
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On January 21 2025 15:17 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2025 14:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 21 2025 13:36 Zambrah wrote:On January 21 2025 13:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:+ Show Spoiler +nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. On January 21 2025 08:41 Zambrah wrote:On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:
nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. Its shameful were gonna have to do it again, but maybe this time we won't be so gracious. Noticing a lot of problems are from being nice to really bad people, should've cracked down harder on the Confederate South post war, should have cracked down harder on the Nazis. These are valid sentiments. Questions that need answering: 1. Where's the line/who is going to draw it? 2. Who do people imagine is going to do the killing of the fascists when they cross it? I don't think anyone believes it is going to be Democrats or that Democrats will let anyone else do it in their stead. Definitely gonna be a split within the Democrats as plenty of them are gonna absolutely side with the fascists by virtue of them being "legitimate" (legitimate in this case just meaning In Power) I think the rank and file members will probably be less involved in the kowtowing than the politicians, a sizeable chunk of whom I'd imagine just siding the fascists first chance they get if they think itll benefit them in any way. As for who is gonna start killing fascists, thats a tough one, I imagine it'll start with some massive atrocity, a lot of handwringing at the start, a lot of justification about why violence isnt the answer, and then I think it'll wind up in broader scale war-type stuff. Obviously the most marginalized communities will be doing the work at the start as they have to defend themselves, I think a majority of society will eventually fight the fascists though. This is all inane postulation on my part, I'm completely guesstimating based on history and my own thoughts about the state of the average person in the year of our dark lord 2025. I mean it wasn't the Germans that stopped the rise of fascism in the ~1920's-40's, I don't think it'll be USians stopping it in the ~2020's-40's. Libs/Dems/Republicans can't draw a line (they've demonstrated bipartisan support for genocide already) and still can't even imagine where they'd draw one today. Presumably some of them will still be alive and working as fascists while for some reason (probably personal, like them being next in the line of people targeted by fascists) being receptive to aiding an outside party in subversion. Then (presuming the fascists lose) the outside party will have to look at that subverter that worked as a fascist until the fascists started to target people like them and decide whether they deserve clemency or condemnation. "Lesser evilism" will be a sort of modern version of "just following orders" when that time comes. EDIT: So were still left wondering where the line will be drawn and who will draw/enforce it. You cant blame lesser evilism when your people have an awesome track record of blatantly voting and supporting the bigger evil.
And a plurality of Germans voted for Nazis?
I'm not really blaming "lesser evilism" (though it has certainly helped lay the foundations), so much as pointing out that it will have limited value when deciding which fascists to enact the harsher crackdowns on and which to grant clemency. Sorta like "I was just following orders" did for Nazis.
To Zam's point, it would be sensible to be more strict than the west was with Nazis. I was pointing out that doing such might not necessarily be that appealing for those that have already used "lesser evilism" in their attempts to rationalize their material support for genocide.
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On January 21 2025 02:20 oBlade wrote:Did Blumpf ever vow, discuss, mention, hint or allude to any crimes or prosecutions of Joe's brothers and sisters and their spouses...? + Show Spoiler +Hard to call this one anything but suspicious, or sheer paranoia.
If anything Trump is petty and revengeful. If the economy takes a nosedive, and people on TV ask for "Bidenomics" back, he might try to attack Biden or familiy personally. He might even do it verbaly, but now he can't bring all those old farts to courtrooms
I think now Trump and his cabinet of stupid billionaires is the honest choice to represent the USA.
People who live on former glory, plastic surgery and inherited money, a class above the people.
People have the choice of a left-leaning representation of billionaires and gerontocracy, or an unhinged orange one.
Edit:
Trump Day 1:
- Tax breaks for globally operating corporations (Trump leaving an agreement that requires base tax of 15% for corporations everywhere)
- No more sanctions on settlers that treat arabs like shit in Westbank. Happy hunting!
- War in Ukraine ongoing, 24 hours promised pushed to "ASAP".
- Support for developing countries cut.
- End of birthright citizenship
- TikTik restored, to please the chinese overlords.
Blue collar workers are very happy, Fox "News" reports!
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On January 21 2025 16:11 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2025 15:17 Velr wrote:On January 21 2025 14:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 21 2025 13:36 Zambrah wrote:On January 21 2025 13:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:+ Show Spoiler +nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. On January 21 2025 08:41 Zambrah wrote:On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:
nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. Its shameful were gonna have to do it again, but maybe this time we won't be so gracious. Noticing a lot of problems are from being nice to really bad people, should've cracked down harder on the Confederate South post war, should have cracked down harder on the Nazis. These are valid sentiments. Questions that need answering: 1. Where's the line/who is going to draw it? 2. Who do people imagine is going to do the killing of the fascists when they cross it? I don't think anyone believes it is going to be Democrats or that Democrats will let anyone else do it in their stead. Definitely gonna be a split within the Democrats as plenty of them are gonna absolutely side with the fascists by virtue of them being "legitimate" (legitimate in this case just meaning In Power) I think the rank and file members will probably be less involved in the kowtowing than the politicians, a sizeable chunk of whom I'd imagine just siding the fascists first chance they get if they think itll benefit them in any way. As for who is gonna start killing fascists, thats a tough one, I imagine it'll start with some massive atrocity, a lot of handwringing at the start, a lot of justification about why violence isnt the answer, and then I think it'll wind up in broader scale war-type stuff. Obviously the most marginalized communities will be doing the work at the start as they have to defend themselves, I think a majority of society will eventually fight the fascists though. This is all inane postulation on my part, I'm completely guesstimating based on history and my own thoughts about the state of the average person in the year of our dark lord 2025. I mean it wasn't the Germans that stopped the rise of fascism in the ~1920's-40's, I don't think it'll be USians stopping it in the ~2020's-40's. Libs/Dems/Republicans can't draw a line (they've demonstrated bipartisan support for genocide already) and still can't even imagine where they'd draw one today. Presumably some of them will still be alive and working as fascists while for some reason (probably personal, like them being next in the line of people targeted by fascists) being receptive to aiding an outside party in subversion. Then (presuming the fascists lose) the outside party will have to look at that subverter that worked as a fascist until the fascists started to target people like them and decide whether they deserve clemency or condemnation. "Lesser evilism" will be a sort of modern version of "just following orders" when that time comes. EDIT: So were still left wondering where the line will be drawn and who will draw/enforce it. You cant blame lesser evilism when your people have an awesome track record of blatantly voting and supporting the bigger evil. And a plurality of Germans voted for Nazis? I'm not really blaming "lesser evilism" (though it has certainly helped lay the foundations), so much as pointing out that it will have limited value when deciding which fascists to enact the harsher crackdowns on and which to grant clemency. Sorta like "I was just following orders" did for Nazis. To Zam's point, it would be sensible to be more strict than the west was with Nazis. I was pointing out that doing such might not necessarily be that appealing for those that have already used "lesser evilism" in their attempts to rationalize their material support for genocide.
A plurality of people in the US that decided to vote, voted for Trump and his entourage. Hitler would have dreamt of such a mandate.
You live in a country full of absolutely deplorable peopel that see no issue with Trump & Co. Many probably can't really be blamed for it, no less they are deplorable and plain vile. Else you plain can't vote for someone like this. Ignorance isn't an excuse.
You can blame democrats for various reasons, being too lazy/neglectfull to actually go out and vote may be one of the most important ones. You can also blame leftists/progressives for being absolutely unable to make anyone like them besides themselves, despite supporting plenty of popular policies, and them achieving absolutely nothing except making the democrats look bad, while Trump was knocking at the door at the same time.
Well, when looking around online and what stuff seems to drive american culture, I guess the US gets pretty much exactly the representation it deserves.
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Trump, just like Hitler, came into power after democracy broke. It wasn't as simple as "the majority of people wanted this". It's not true that the majority was in favor of these tyrants. Their grand popularity is a pervasive myth that they want everyone to believe.
Biden - by refusing to get out of the way a year or two before elections, and then suddenly getting the boot at the worst possible moment a few months before elections - practically ensured that democracy broke in the US. Harris ran on an extremely delayed campaign and this very clearly reflects in the absence of turnout on election day. Then Trump won despite a significant decline in popularity. He didn't need to "win", he only needed Democrats to lose - which they did because of Biden's stubborness.
Hitler - unlawfully by the way - banned opposing parties that were previously holding many votes which consequently jumped to the NSDAP as they were looking for a new home. Without those additional votes he couldn't possibly gain a supermajority, which he needed to justify his absolute dictatorial rule. This is because Germany back then was already a multi-party republic that didn't allow a one party rule unless it received over 50% of the votes. On top of that illegal mess the voting process itself was also illegal with people having to place their vote visibly while having Nazi party members standing right behind them. This came after a long effort by the Nazis to terrorize people in the streets, in this way heavily manipulating their decision on the ballot.
If we oversimplify the historic lessons to "most people really really liked this tyrant" then we'll learn the wrong lessons.
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On January 21 2025 17:10 KT_Elwood wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2025 02:20 oBlade wrote:Did Blumpf ever vow, discuss, mention, hint or allude to any crimes or prosecutions of Joe's brothers and sisters and their spouses...? + Show Spoiler +Hard to call this one anything but suspicious, or sheer paranoia. If anything Trump is petty and revengeful. If the economy takes a nosedive, and people on TV ask for "Bidenomics" back, he might try to attack Biden or familiy personally. He might even do it verbaly, but now he can't bring all those old farts to courtrooms
1) Was there any evidence for a pattern leading to what you predict would happen? He has sued and been sued a lot I know. That addiction to civil litigation among the rich has nothing to do with pardons and it has nothing to do with the DOJ. When his administration/record collapsed in 2020 did he sic the DOJ on Obama? Clinton?
2) Would he have some reason to be vengeful?
On January 21 2025 17:10 KT_Elwood wrote:
Edit:
Trump Day 1:
- Tax breaks for globally operating corporations (Trump leaving an agreement that requires base tax of 15% for corporations everywhere)
- No more sanctions on settlers that treat arabs like shit in Westbank. Happy hunting!
- War in Ukraine ongoing, 24 hours promised pushed to "ASAP".
- Support for developing countries cut.
- End of birthright citizenship
- TikTik restored, to please the chinese overlords.
Blue collar workers are very happy, Fox "News" reports!
Good try at Middle East bait but the "developing countries" aid cut includes aid to Israel, no? The Tiktok ban is postponed, pending a deal involving actual divestment, which makes some sense as even though other apps do the same thing, the network people have built can't just be instantly transplanted, the brands and followings people have and the fact that livelihoods depend on it. Because although the format of the app is poisonous trash, especially for youth, that's not specifically why it was banned - it's basically foreign spyware/propaganda. Even though Biden and Blumpf both said they wouldn't follow through with the ban right away, at a certain point if still nobody acquires a majority share in it it becomes necessary to enforce the law that rightfully passed Congress and Biden (even though he personally flip flopped after signing it) otherwise it's eventually a form of abdication.
The birthright citizenship EO is the most wanting to be challenged. Most of the immigration EOs are very safe now because of SCOTUS, lower courts won't have a serious ability to interfere with the president doing the constitutional job of the executive. There were definitely cases of radical judges hamstringing last time.
The reasoning behind the EO is good, it's testing an untested theory: Congress has failed to define "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" for over 100 years, the courts have not often been tested on it, so the approach of the president defining it opens the opportunity for a challenge, which can put it in the courts, where actual rulings can happen. The EO is worded strategically with two distinct parts: one claiming children born to those without legal status are not to be recognized automatically as citizens, and another claiming children born to those with only temporary legal status, and not residency, are not to be recognized automatically as citizens. The idea is that even if the latter appears too extreme, there is an available compromise as the former can be easily argued to be consistent with the 14th amendment.
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On January 21 2025 14:34 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2025 13:36 Zambrah wrote:On January 21 2025 13:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:+ Show Spoiler +nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. On January 21 2025 08:41 Zambrah wrote:On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:
nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. Its shameful were gonna have to do it again, but maybe this time we won't be so gracious. Noticing a lot of problems are from being nice to really bad people, should've cracked down harder on the Confederate South post war, should have cracked down harder on the Nazis. These are valid sentiments. Questions that need answering: 1. Where's the line/who is going to draw it? 2. Who do people imagine is going to do the killing of the fascists when they cross it? I don't think anyone believes it is going to be Democrats or that Democrats will let anyone else do it in their stead. Definitely gonna be a split within the Democrats as plenty of them are gonna absolutely side with the fascists by virtue of them being "legitimate" (legitimate in this case just meaning In Power) I think the rank and file members will probably be less involved in the kowtowing than the politicians, a sizeable chunk of whom I'd imagine just siding the fascists first chance they get if they think itll benefit them in any way. As for who is gonna start killing fascists, thats a tough one, I imagine it'll start with some massive atrocity, a lot of handwringing at the start, a lot of justification about why violence isnt the answer, and then I think it'll wind up in broader scale war-type stuff. Obviously the most marginalized communities will be doing the work at the start as they have to defend themselves, I think a majority of society will eventually fight the fascists though. This is all inane postulation on my part, I'm completely guesstimating based on history and my own thoughts about the state of the average person in the year of our dark lord 2025. I mean it wasn't the Germans that stopped the rise of fascism in the ~1920's-40's, I don't think it'll be USians stopping it in the ~2020's-40's. Libs/Dems/Republicans can't draw a line (they've demonstrated bipartisan support for genocide already) and still can't even imagine where they'd draw one today. Presumably some of them will still be alive and working as fascists while for some reason (probably personal, like them being next in the line of people targeted by fascists) being receptive to aiding an outside party in subversion. Then (presuming the fascists lose) the outside party will have to look at that subverter that worked as a fascist until the fascists started to target people like them and decide whether they deserve clemency or condemnation. "Lesser evilism" will be a sort of modern version of "just following orders" when that time comes. EDIT: So were still left wondering where the line will be drawn and who will draw/enforce it.
i’ll have to pray for some more vigilante shit. because realistically it’s that or a civil war, which won’t ever happen. and because what other country is ever going to war with the US on its own soil? so i don’t see any large scale action to stop the nazification of our conservative party.
so realistically, we’ll just tolerate nazis being an ever growing party in the US. and hopefully enough of them get publicly put down to dissuade more outright support. 🤷🏻♂️
before anyone comes at me with ‘oh so you think it’s ok//the best plan to just murder people?’
ok? to kill nazis? yes.
best plan? no. the best plan would be to outlaw nazism but we keep voting for their supporters so i don’t see that happening.
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Northern Ireland24262 Posts
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ced961egp65o
Succinct breakdown of day 1’s EO etc.
Predictably fucking shite, equally I mean hardly surprising. Reads like the laundry list of things that annoy various folks, just cobbled together haphazardly. I mean it looks that way because that’s exactly what it is.
It’s not uniformly terrible, there’s the odd thing but even then it feels like lip service and an afterthought.
Cost of living, sure it’s clearly a problem. ‘Have a think federal agencies and get back to me in a month’ seems massively half-arsed compared to other policy areas. No tsar overseeing a task force coordinating bodies and policy in this area? That might be sensible and worth doing, but I guess that kinda structuring is reserved for cronies who want to gut government agencies.
I look forward to the attempts of people to jump through the tiniest hoops that the repeal of Roe was fine and we give states the freedom to make their own laws, but we need federal level laws on gender, for some reason. That’ll be a larf
It’s pathetic really and a damning indictment of the state of US, and indeed wider world politics the moment.
There are very real problems, legitimate grievances etc etc but good governance sometimes necessitates telling people things what they don’t want to hear.
Hey not exclusively this lot, but they’re pretty bad offenders. Is it something that annoys our base, or getting rid of it will annoy the other lot? Get rid. Is it something our predecessors did? Sure get rid.
One may require some tweaks here or there, but ‘America First’ when it comes to manufacturing is a natural bedfellow of parts of the Green New Deal. You’ve got someone like Musk in your cabinet with a world-leading company in the sector?
You can’t mash them together? Like you really can’t join those dots. Of course not, because it’s not about sober policy considerations that might benefit regular Americans.
It’s about keeping people pissed off, throwing the occasional distracting bone and getting down to the business of making you and yours richer.
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United States42190 Posts
On January 21 2025 22:44 Magic Powers wrote:
Trump, just like Hitler, came into power after democracy broke. It wasn't as simple as "the majority of people wanted this". It's not true that the majority was in favor of these tyrants. Their grand popularity is a pervasive myth that they want everyone to believe.
Biden - by refusing to get out of the way a year or two before elections, and then suddenly getting the boot at the worst possible moment a few months before elections - practically ensured that democracy broke in the US. Harris ran on an extremely delayed campaign and this very clearly reflects in the absence of turnout on election day. Then Trump won despite a significant decline in popularity. He didn't need to "win", he only needed Democrats to lose - which they did because of Biden's stubborness.
Hitler - unlawfully by the way - banned opposing parties that were previously holding many votes which consequently jumped to the NSDAP as they were looking for a new home. Without those additional votes he couldn't possibly gain a supermajority, which he needed to justify his absolute dictatorial rule. This is because Germany back then was already a multi-party republic that didn't allow a one party rule unless it received over 50% of the votes. On top of that illegal mess the voting process itself was also illegal with people having to place their vote visibly while having Nazi party members standing right behind them. This came after a long effort by the Nazis to terrorize people in the streets, in this way heavily manipulating their decision on the ballot.
If we oversimplify the historic lessons to "most people really really liked this tyrant" then we'll learn the wrong lessons.
Nope. People didn’t reluctantly vote Trump because Biden stepped down too late. Trumpers are true believers. Cultists worshipping at the fake news throne. A bunch voted against the incumbent due to a vague sense of unease with the world but lots more, for example Oblade in this topic, whole heartedly believe that there is an insidious international Bolshevik conspiracy to destroy the morals and culture of the volk and that a strong leader is required to purge it.
I’m actually more sympathetic to 1930s Germans than I am to modern Americans. The Germans lived through WW1, saw their savings wiped out by hyperinflation, saw their political establishment torn down, and the institutions which lacked strength were just a decade old. Americans are the most privileged people on earth but had to contend with a boat getting stuck in a canal and birds getting sick.
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United States42190 Posts
On January 21 2025 14:34 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2025 13:36 Zambrah wrote:On January 21 2025 13:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:+ Show Spoiler +nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. On January 21 2025 08:41 Zambrah wrote:On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:
nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. Its shameful were gonna have to do it again, but maybe this time we won't be so gracious. Noticing a lot of problems are from being nice to really bad people, should've cracked down harder on the Confederate South post war, should have cracked down harder on the Nazis. These are valid sentiments. Questions that need answering: 1. Where's the line/who is going to draw it? 2. Who do people imagine is going to do the killing of the fascists when they cross it? I don't think anyone believes it is going to be Democrats or that Democrats will let anyone else do it in their stead. Definitely gonna be a split within the Democrats as plenty of them are gonna absolutely side with the fascists by virtue of them being "legitimate" (legitimate in this case just meaning In Power) I think the rank and file members will probably be less involved in the kowtowing than the politicians, a sizeable chunk of whom I'd imagine just siding the fascists first chance they get if they think itll benefit them in any way. As for who is gonna start killing fascists, thats a tough one, I imagine it'll start with some massive atrocity, a lot of handwringing at the start, a lot of justification about why violence isnt the answer, and then I think it'll wind up in broader scale war-type stuff. Obviously the most marginalized communities will be doing the work at the start as they have to defend themselves, I think a majority of society will eventually fight the fascists though. This is all inane postulation on my part, I'm completely guesstimating based on history and my own thoughts about the state of the average person in the year of our dark lord 2025. I mean it wasn't the Germans that stopped the rise of fascism in the ~1920's-40's, I don't think it'll be USians stopping it in the ~2020's-40's. Libs/Dems/Republicans can't draw a line (they've demonstrated bipartisan support for genocide already) and still can't even imagine where they'd draw one today. Presumably some of them will still be alive and working as fascists while for some reason (probably personal, like them being next in the line of people targeted by fascists) being receptive to aiding an outside party in subversion. Then (presuming the fascists lose) the outside party will have to look at that subverter that worked as a fascist until the fascists started to target people like them and decide whether they deserve clemency or condemnation. "Lesser evilism" will be a sort of modern version of "just following orders" when that time comes. EDIT: So were still left wondering where the line will be drawn and who will draw/enforce it.
Not sure if you’ve ever read a history book but the Stalinists allied with, armed, and fought alongside Hitler. It was the traditional Liberal (with a capital L) elite in Britain etc. who recognized him for what he was and unwaveringly fought against the ideology Hitler promoted.
The Stalinists only fought back when they found their Nazi allies turning on them. The Liberals fought when making peace would preserve their status and empire and refusing would cost them everything.
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On January 22 2025 00:07 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2025 22:44 Magic Powers wrote:
Trump, just like Hitler, came into power after democracy broke. It wasn't as simple as "the majority of people wanted this". It's not true that the majority was in favor of these tyrants. Their grand popularity is a pervasive myth that they want everyone to believe.
Biden - by refusing to get out of the way a year or two before elections, and then suddenly getting the boot at the worst possible moment a few months before elections - practically ensured that democracy broke in the US. Harris ran on an extremely delayed campaign and this very clearly reflects in the absence of turnout on election day. Then Trump won despite a significant decline in popularity. He didn't need to "win", he only needed Democrats to lose - which they did because of Biden's stubborness.
Hitler - unlawfully by the way - banned opposing parties that were previously holding many votes which consequently jumped to the NSDAP as they were looking for a new home. Without those additional votes he couldn't possibly gain a supermajority, which he needed to justify his absolute dictatorial rule. This is because Germany back then was already a multi-party republic that didn't allow a one party rule unless it received over 50% of the votes. On top of that illegal mess the voting process itself was also illegal with people having to place their vote visibly while having Nazi party members standing right behind them. This came after a long effort by the Nazis to terrorize people in the streets, in this way heavily manipulating their decision on the ballot.
If we oversimplify the historic lessons to "most people really really liked this tyrant" then we'll learn the wrong lessons. Nope. People didn’t reluctantly vote Trump because Biden stepped down too late. Trumpers are true believers. Cultists worshipping at the fake news throne. A bunch voted against the incumbent due to a vague sense of unease with the world but lots more, for example Oblade in this topic, whole heartedly believe that there is an insidious international Bolshevik conspiracy to destroy the morals and culture of the volk and that a strong leader is required to purge it. I’m actually more sympathetic to 1930s Germans than I am to modern Americans. The Germans lived through WW1, saw their savings wiped out by hyperinflation, saw their political establishment torn down, and the institutions which lacked strength were just a decade old. Americans are the most privileged people on earth but had to contend with a boat getting stuck in a canal and birds getting sick.
Economic hardship was present in many countries, this alone can't explain the rise of fascism in Germany (and Italy). The Nazis came to power due to a combination of factors such as terrorism, propaganda and general political turmoil. Economic hardship was being used as a narrative tool by the Nazis, and so it's only one of the contributing factors. It does not explain why the Nazi party grew to begin with. The pull towards Nazism was largely fabricated from lies, exactly as it's being done today. That's why we're seeing a general rise of fascism and Nazism in many European countries despite comparably little economic hardship. Nazis don't need a reality of hardship to come to power, they need a set of lies. They need a fantasy narrative and nothing more than that. The people who support fascist parties live in a fantasy world. Likewise the Republican party is built on a fantasy narrative. It's all lies and propaganda. Americans have no valid reason to pull so hard towards fascism and yet they're doing it anyway.
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Now that January 6th insurrectionist have been pardoned, what do people think will happen on January 6th 2029?
One could hope to see at least a general strike and so on, but USA is not France.
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On January 22 2025 00:50 Legan wrote:
Now that January 6th insurrectionist have been pardoned, what do people think will happen on January 6th 2029?
One could hope to see at least a general strike and so on, but USA is not France. what? you want to have a legal strike on the certification of the next Presidency because this President pardoned the people attempted an insurrection meant to keep him in power 4 years ago?
I don't see how that makes sense.
The more logical expectation would be another violent insurrection if Republicans lose, because there are apparently no consequences for trying. Even if you fail you just get pardoned 4 years later.
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Northern Ireland24262 Posts
On January 22 2025 00:07 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2025 22:44 Magic Powers wrote:
Trump, just like Hitler, came into power after democracy broke. It wasn't as simple as "the majority of people wanted this". It's not true that the majority was in favor of these tyrants. Their grand popularity is a pervasive myth that they want everyone to believe.
Biden - by refusing to get out of the way a year or two before elections, and then suddenly getting the boot at the worst possible moment a few months before elections - practically ensured that democracy broke in the US. Harris ran on an extremely delayed campaign and this very clearly reflects in the absence of turnout on election day. Then Trump won despite a significant decline in popularity. He didn't need to "win", he only needed Democrats to lose - which they did because of Biden's stubborness.
Hitler - unlawfully by the way - banned opposing parties that were previously holding many votes which consequently jumped to the NSDAP as they were looking for a new home. Without those additional votes he couldn't possibly gain a supermajority, which he needed to justify his absolute dictatorial rule. This is because Germany back then was already a multi-party republic that didn't allow a one party rule unless it received over 50% of the votes. On top of that illegal mess the voting process itself was also illegal with people having to place their vote visibly while having Nazi party members standing right behind them. This came after a long effort by the Nazis to terrorize people in the streets, in this way heavily manipulating their decision on the ballot.
If we oversimplify the historic lessons to "most people really really liked this tyrant" then we'll learn the wrong lessons. Nope. People didn’t reluctantly vote Trump because Biden stepped down too late. Trumpers are true believers. Cultists worshipping at the fake news throne. A bunch voted against the incumbent due to a vague sense of unease with the world but lots more, for example Oblade in this topic, whole heartedly believe that there is an insidious international Bolshevik conspiracy to destroy the morals and culture of the volk and that a strong leader is required to purge it. I’m actually more sympathetic to 1930s Germans than I am to modern Americans. The Germans lived through WW1, saw their savings wiped out by hyperinflation, saw their political establishment torn down, and the institutions which lacked strength were just a decade old. Americans are the most privileged people on earth but had to contend with a boat getting stuck in a canal and birds getting sick.
Absolutely, especially given all the extra information we have available today. We’ve seen that playbook many times before at this point.
I think it isn’t mentioned enough that it’s parts of that playbook, with the individual out front and centre, rather than the collective. I mean yeah there’s some overlap too.
There’s some shared rhetoric and odes to restoring the nation, but there’s no expectation, nor any real buy-in as we saw in 20th century Europe.
People don’t want to actually do anything for some idealised collective good. They want a Trump to make the playing field uneven in their favour, or punish the folks they don’t like. The same folks who spout MAGA and that the country has gone to the dogs are the same ones who couldn’t handle a bit of lock down to help the collective citizenry.
So I guess there’s quite a few differences as well.
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On January 22 2025 00:25 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2025 14:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 21 2025 13:36 Zambrah wrote:On January 21 2025 13:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:+ Show Spoiler +nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. On January 21 2025 08:41 Zambrah wrote:On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:
nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. Its shameful were gonna have to do it again, but maybe this time we won't be so gracious. Noticing a lot of problems are from being nice to really bad people, should've cracked down harder on the Confederate South post war, should have cracked down harder on the Nazis. These are valid sentiments. Questions that need answering: 1. Where's the line/who is going to draw it? 2. Who do people imagine is going to do the killing of the fascists when they cross it? I don't think anyone believes it is going to be Democrats or that Democrats will let anyone else do it in their stead. Definitely gonna be a split within the Democrats as plenty of them are gonna absolutely side with the fascists by virtue of them being "legitimate" (legitimate in this case just meaning In Power) I think the rank and file members will probably be less involved in the kowtowing than the politicians, a sizeable chunk of whom I'd imagine just siding the fascists first chance they get if they think itll benefit them in any way. As for who is gonna start killing fascists, thats a tough one, I imagine it'll start with some massive atrocity, a lot of handwringing at the start, a lot of justification about why violence isnt the answer, and then I think it'll wind up in broader scale war-type stuff. Obviously the most marginalized communities will be doing the work at the start as they have to defend themselves, I think a majority of society will eventually fight the fascists though. This is all inane postulation on my part, I'm completely guesstimating based on history and my own thoughts about the state of the average person in the year of our dark lord 2025. I mean it wasn't the Germans that stopped the rise of fascism in the ~1920's-40's, I don't think it'll be USians stopping it in the ~2020's-40's. Libs/Dems/Republicans can't draw a line (they've demonstrated bipartisan support for genocide already) and still can't even imagine where they'd draw one today. Presumably some of them will still be alive and working as fascists while for some reason (probably personal, like them being next in the line of people targeted by fascists) being receptive to aiding an outside party in subversion. Then (presuming the fascists lose) the outside party will have to look at that subverter that worked as a fascist until the fascists started to target people like them and decide whether they deserve clemency or condemnation. "Lesser evilism" will be a sort of modern version of "just following orders" when that time comes. EDIT: So were still left wondering where the line will be drawn and who will draw/enforce it. Not sure if you’ve ever read a history book but the Stalinists allied with, armed, and fought alongside Hitler. It was the traditional Liberal (with a capital L) elite in Britain etc. who recognized him for what he was and unwaveringly fought against the ideology Hitler promoted. The Stalinists only fought back when they found their Nazi allies turning on them. The Liberals fought when making peace would preserve their status and empire and refusing would cost them everything.
Not really sure what history books you have been reading but that is definitely not the description of the Hitler/Stalin "alliance"..
Hitler wanted to avoid two front war.
Stalin was not ready to deal with Hitler.
There was never going to be a real alliance.
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On January 22 2025 01:47 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2025 00:25 KwarK wrote:On January 21 2025 14:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 21 2025 13:36 Zambrah wrote:On January 21 2025 13:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:+ Show Spoiler +nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. On January 21 2025 08:41 Zambrah wrote:On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:
nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. Its shameful were gonna have to do it again, but maybe this time we won't be so gracious. Noticing a lot of problems are from being nice to really bad people, should've cracked down harder on the Confederate South post war, should have cracked down harder on the Nazis. These are valid sentiments. Questions that need answering: 1. Where's the line/who is going to draw it? 2. Who do people imagine is going to do the killing of the fascists when they cross it? I don't think anyone believes it is going to be Democrats or that Democrats will let anyone else do it in their stead. Definitely gonna be a split within the Democrats as plenty of them are gonna absolutely side with the fascists by virtue of them being "legitimate" (legitimate in this case just meaning In Power) I think the rank and file members will probably be less involved in the kowtowing than the politicians, a sizeable chunk of whom I'd imagine just siding the fascists first chance they get if they think itll benefit them in any way. As for who is gonna start killing fascists, thats a tough one, I imagine it'll start with some massive atrocity, a lot of handwringing at the start, a lot of justification about why violence isnt the answer, and then I think it'll wind up in broader scale war-type stuff. Obviously the most marginalized communities will be doing the work at the start as they have to defend themselves, I think a majority of society will eventually fight the fascists though. This is all inane postulation on my part, I'm completely guesstimating based on history and my own thoughts about the state of the average person in the year of our dark lord 2025. I mean it wasn't the Germans that stopped the rise of fascism in the ~1920's-40's, I don't think it'll be USians stopping it in the ~2020's-40's. Libs/Dems/Republicans can't draw a line (they've demonstrated bipartisan support for genocide already) and still can't even imagine where they'd draw one today. Presumably some of them will still be alive and working as fascists while for some reason (probably personal, like them being next in the line of people targeted by fascists) being receptive to aiding an outside party in subversion. Then (presuming the fascists lose) the outside party will have to look at that subverter that worked as a fascist until the fascists started to target people like them and decide whether they deserve clemency or condemnation. "Lesser evilism" will be a sort of modern version of "just following orders" when that time comes. EDIT: So were still left wondering where the line will be drawn and who will draw/enforce it. Not sure if you’ve ever read a history book but the Stalinists allied with, armed, and fought alongside Hitler. It was the traditional Liberal (with a capital L) elite in Britain etc. who recognized him for what he was and unwaveringly fought against the ideology Hitler promoted. The Stalinists only fought back when they found their Nazi allies turning on them. The Liberals fought when making peace would preserve their status and empire and refusing would cost them everything. Not really sure what history books you have been reading but that is definitely not the description of the Hitler/Stalin "alliance".. Hitler wanted to avoid two front war. Stalin was not ready to deal with Hitler. There was never going to be a real alliance.
I'm sure the Polish disagree with you on this. They cooperated very closely and signed treaties in each others short term interest.
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On January 22 2025 01:47 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2025 00:25 KwarK wrote:On January 21 2025 14:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 21 2025 13:36 Zambrah wrote:On January 21 2025 13:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:+ Show Spoiler +nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. On January 21 2025 08:41 Zambrah wrote:On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:
nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. Its shameful were gonna have to do it again, but maybe this time we won't be so gracious. Noticing a lot of problems are from being nice to really bad people, should've cracked down harder on the Confederate South post war, should have cracked down harder on the Nazis. These are valid sentiments. Questions that need answering: 1. Where's the line/who is going to draw it? 2. Who do people imagine is going to do the killing of the fascists when they cross it? I don't think anyone believes it is going to be Democrats or that Democrats will let anyone else do it in their stead. Definitely gonna be a split within the Democrats as plenty of them are gonna absolutely side with the fascists by virtue of them being "legitimate" (legitimate in this case just meaning In Power) I think the rank and file members will probably be less involved in the kowtowing than the politicians, a sizeable chunk of whom I'd imagine just siding the fascists first chance they get if they think itll benefit them in any way. As for who is gonna start killing fascists, thats a tough one, I imagine it'll start with some massive atrocity, a lot of handwringing at the start, a lot of justification about why violence isnt the answer, and then I think it'll wind up in broader scale war-type stuff. Obviously the most marginalized communities will be doing the work at the start as they have to defend themselves, I think a majority of society will eventually fight the fascists though. This is all inane postulation on my part, I'm completely guesstimating based on history and my own thoughts about the state of the average person in the year of our dark lord 2025. I mean it wasn't the Germans that stopped the rise of fascism in the ~1920's-40's, I don't think it'll be USians stopping it in the ~2020's-40's. Libs/Dems/Republicans can't draw a line (they've demonstrated bipartisan support for genocide already) and still can't even imagine where they'd draw one today. Presumably some of them will still be alive and working as fascists while for some reason (probably personal, like them being next in the line of people targeted by fascists) being receptive to aiding an outside party in subversion. Then (presuming the fascists lose) the outside party will have to look at that subverter that worked as a fascist until the fascists started to target people like them and decide whether they deserve clemency or condemnation. "Lesser evilism" will be a sort of modern version of "just following orders" when that time comes. EDIT: So were still left wondering where the line will be drawn and who will draw/enforce it. Not sure if you’ve ever read a history book but the Stalinists allied with, armed, and fought alongside Hitler. It was the traditional Liberal (with a capital L) elite in Britain etc. who recognized him for what he was and unwaveringly fought against the ideology Hitler promoted. The Stalinists only fought back when they found their Nazi allies turning on them. The Liberals fought when making peace would preserve their status and empire and refusing would cost them everything. Not really sure what history books you have been reading but that is definitely not the description of the Hitler/Stalin "alliance".. Hitler wanted to avoid two front war. Stalin was not ready to deal with Hitler. There was never going to be a real alliance.
Their alliance might have been temporary, but it was very real. I am sure You are aware of the secret clause of the Ribbentrop-Mołotow pact: + Show Spoiler +
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EPT![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GhwEg0PXEAAPsaY.jpg)
