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On January 22 2025 01:47 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2025 00:25 KwarK wrote:On January 21 2025 14:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 21 2025 13:36 Zambrah wrote:On January 21 2025 13:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:+ Show Spoiler +nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. On January 21 2025 08:41 Zambrah wrote:On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:
nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. Its shameful were gonna have to do it again, but maybe this time we won't be so gracious. Noticing a lot of problems are from being nice to really bad people, should've cracked down harder on the Confederate South post war, should have cracked down harder on the Nazis. These are valid sentiments. Questions that need answering: 1. Where's the line/who is going to draw it? 2. Who do people imagine is going to do the killing of the fascists when they cross it? I don't think anyone believes it is going to be Democrats or that Democrats will let anyone else do it in their stead. Definitely gonna be a split within the Democrats as plenty of them are gonna absolutely side with the fascists by virtue of them being "legitimate" (legitimate in this case just meaning In Power) I think the rank and file members will probably be less involved in the kowtowing than the politicians, a sizeable chunk of whom I'd imagine just siding the fascists first chance they get if they think itll benefit them in any way. As for who is gonna start killing fascists, thats a tough one, I imagine it'll start with some massive atrocity, a lot of handwringing at the start, a lot of justification about why violence isnt the answer, and then I think it'll wind up in broader scale war-type stuff. Obviously the most marginalized communities will be doing the work at the start as they have to defend themselves, I think a majority of society will eventually fight the fascists though. This is all inane postulation on my part, I'm completely guesstimating based on history and my own thoughts about the state of the average person in the year of our dark lord 2025. I mean it wasn't the Germans that stopped the rise of fascism in the ~1920's-40's, I don't think it'll be USians stopping it in the ~2020's-40's. Libs/Dems/Republicans can't draw a line (they've demonstrated bipartisan support for genocide already) and still can't even imagine where they'd draw one today. Presumably some of them will still be alive and working as fascists while for some reason (probably personal, like them being next in the line of people targeted by fascists) being receptive to aiding an outside party in subversion. Then (presuming the fascists lose) the outside party will have to look at that subverter that worked as a fascist until the fascists started to target people like them and decide whether they deserve clemency or condemnation. "Lesser evilism" will be a sort of modern version of "just following orders" when that time comes. EDIT: So were still left wondering where the line will be drawn and who will draw/enforce it. Not sure if you’ve ever read a history book but the Stalinists allied with, armed, and fought alongside Hitler. It was the traditional Liberal (with a capital L) elite in Britain etc. who recognized him for what he was and unwaveringly fought against the ideology Hitler promoted. The Stalinists only fought back when they found their Nazi allies turning on them. The Liberals fought when making peace would preserve their status and empire and refusing would cost them everything. Not really sure what history books you have been reading but that is definitely not the description of the Hitler/Stalin "alliance".. Hitler wanted to avoid two front war. Stalin was not ready to deal with Hitler. There was never going to be a real alliance.
You have no idea what you're talking about. USSR's economic support for the Nazi Germany played a crucial role in Hitler's invasion of Western Europe. The Nazis and the Soviets held joint military parades after the conquest of Poland. Stalin trusted Hitler so much that he was in complete denial when the USSR got invaded.
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On January 21 2025 14:34 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2025 13:36 Zambrah wrote:On January 21 2025 13:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:+ Show Spoiler +nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. On January 21 2025 08:41 Zambrah wrote:On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:
nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. Its shameful were gonna have to do it again, but maybe this time we won't be so gracious. Noticing a lot of problems are from being nice to really bad people, should've cracked down harder on the Confederate South post war, should have cracked down harder on the Nazis. These are valid sentiments. Questions that need answering: 1. Where's the line/who is going to draw it? 2. Who do people imagine is going to do the killing of the fascists when they cross it? I don't think anyone believes it is going to be Democrats or that Democrats will let anyone else do it in their stead. Definitely gonna be a split within the Democrats as plenty of them are gonna absolutely side with the fascists by virtue of them being "legitimate" (legitimate in this case just meaning In Power) I think the rank and file members will probably be less involved in the kowtowing than the politicians, a sizeable chunk of whom I'd imagine just siding the fascists first chance they get if they think itll benefit them in any way. As for who is gonna start killing fascists, thats a tough one, I imagine it'll start with some massive atrocity, a lot of handwringing at the start, a lot of justification about why violence isnt the answer, and then I think it'll wind up in broader scale war-type stuff. Obviously the most marginalized communities will be doing the work at the start as they have to defend themselves, I think a majority of society will eventually fight the fascists though. This is all inane postulation on my part, I'm completely guesstimating based on history and my own thoughts about the state of the average person in the year of our dark lord 2025. I mean it wasn't the Germans that stopped the rise of fascism in the ~1920's-40's, I don't think it'll be USians stopping it in the ~2020's-40's. Libs/Dems/Republicans can't draw a line (they've demonstrated bipartisan support for genocide already) and still can't even imagine where they'd draw one today. Presumably some of them will still be alive and working as fascists while for some reason (probably personal, like them being next in the line of people targeted by fascists) being receptive to aiding an outside party in subversion. Then (presuming the fascists lose) the outside party will have to look at that subverter that worked as a fascist until the fascists started to target people like them and decide whether they deserve clemency or condemnation. "Lesser evilism" will be a sort of modern version of "just following orders" when that time comes. EDIT: So were still left wondering where the line will be drawn and who will draw/enforce it.
No idea where the line drawn will be, probably notably further out than any civilized person would have wanted it to, somewhere past camps and somewhere into mass systematic killings is my guess.
I will say that I dont see anyone else fighting and killing fascists in any major way in the US, I think it'll be closer to Civil War style than World War style
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Finland43270 Posts
On January 22 2025 01:56 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2025 01:47 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 22 2025 00:25 KwarK wrote:On January 21 2025 14:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 21 2025 13:36 Zambrah wrote:On January 21 2025 13:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:+ Show Spoiler +nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. On January 21 2025 08:41 Zambrah wrote:On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:
nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. Its shameful were gonna have to do it again, but maybe this time we won't be so gracious. Noticing a lot of problems are from being nice to really bad people, should've cracked down harder on the Confederate South post war, should have cracked down harder on the Nazis. These are valid sentiments. Questions that need answering: 1. Where's the line/who is going to draw it? 2. Who do people imagine is going to do the killing of the fascists when they cross it? I don't think anyone believes it is going to be Democrats or that Democrats will let anyone else do it in their stead. Definitely gonna be a split within the Democrats as plenty of them are gonna absolutely side with the fascists by virtue of them being "legitimate" (legitimate in this case just meaning In Power) I think the rank and file members will probably be less involved in the kowtowing than the politicians, a sizeable chunk of whom I'd imagine just siding the fascists first chance they get if they think itll benefit them in any way. As for who is gonna start killing fascists, thats a tough one, I imagine it'll start with some massive atrocity, a lot of handwringing at the start, a lot of justification about why violence isnt the answer, and then I think it'll wind up in broader scale war-type stuff. Obviously the most marginalized communities will be doing the work at the start as they have to defend themselves, I think a majority of society will eventually fight the fascists though. This is all inane postulation on my part, I'm completely guesstimating based on history and my own thoughts about the state of the average person in the year of our dark lord 2025. I mean it wasn't the Germans that stopped the rise of fascism in the ~1920's-40's, I don't think it'll be USians stopping it in the ~2020's-40's. Libs/Dems/Republicans can't draw a line (they've demonstrated bipartisan support for genocide already) and still can't even imagine where they'd draw one today. Presumably some of them will still be alive and working as fascists while for some reason (probably personal, like them being next in the line of people targeted by fascists) being receptive to aiding an outside party in subversion. Then (presuming the fascists lose) the outside party will have to look at that subverter that worked as a fascist until the fascists started to target people like them and decide whether they deserve clemency or condemnation. "Lesser evilism" will be a sort of modern version of "just following orders" when that time comes. EDIT: So were still left wondering where the line will be drawn and who will draw/enforce it. Not sure if you’ve ever read a history book but the Stalinists allied with, armed, and fought alongside Hitler. It was the traditional Liberal (with a capital L) elite in Britain etc. who recognized him for what he was and unwaveringly fought against the ideology Hitler promoted. The Stalinists only fought back when they found their Nazi allies turning on them. The Liberals fought when making peace would preserve their status and empire and refusing would cost them everything. Not really sure what history books you have been reading but that is definitely not the description of the Hitler/Stalin "alliance".. Hitler wanted to avoid two front war. Stalin was not ready to deal with Hitler. There was never going to be a real alliance. I'm sure the Polish disagree with you on this. They cooperated very closely and signed treaties in each others short term interest.
Of course, but like as you said -- "short term interest".
We were also in war with soviets, and at the same time equipped by germans.
Doesn't sound like a very close alliance. What i mean that saying they were in "close alliance" is just not what happened at all.
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Historians aren't sure why exactly Stalin misread Hitler, but they're in agreement that he expected an invasion. They were not "friends" or "allies", it was entirely temporary and circumstantial. Stalin hated the fact that he had to share Poland with Hitler. He had planned a full invasion to claim everything.
He was surprised because he believed Hitler's invasion would happen later rather than sooner, even though his advisors kept warning him of an imminent threat and asking for a quick defensive military build-up. Operation Barbarossa was right around the corner while Stalin was still in denial, and he was caught off-guard.
Both Hitler and Stalin were planning to attack each other the whole time, they just didn't have a precise date in mind. Stalin couldn't attack first because his military was poor. Hitler's Wehrmacht was ready.
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Finland43270 Posts
On January 22 2025 02:55 Magic Powers wrote:
Historians aren't sure why exactly Stalin misread Hitler, but they're in agreement that he expected an invasion. They were not "friends" or "allies", it was entirely temporary and circumstantial. Stalin hated the fact that he had to share Poland with Hitler. He had planned a full invasion to claim everything.
He was surprised because he believed Hitler's invasion would happen later rather than sooner, even though his advisors kept warning him of an imminent threat and asking for a quick defensive military build-up. Operation Barbarossa was right around the corner while Stalin was still in denial, and he was caught off-guard.
Both Hitler and Stalin were planning to attack each other the whole time, they just didn't have a precise date in mind. Stalin couldn't attack first because his military was poor. Hitler's Wehrmacht was ready.
Exactly.
I assume Polish people especially see this in a very different light, but that's how it was.
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It's going to be a really, really long four years with Trump in office. 2016-2020 was already ridiculous, and this one's starting out further off the rails.
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On January 22 2025 03:03 Lmui wrote:
It's going to be a really, really long four years with Trump in office. 2016-2020 was already ridiculous, and this one's starting out further off the rails.
Embarking on year 8 as a federal employee and man I feel this deep down. Wish us luck, those of you not inclined to blanketly demonize the work of government. The rest of you, well, we’ve probably already had that conversation 
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On January 22 2025 02:25 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2025 14:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 21 2025 13:36 Zambrah wrote:On January 21 2025 13:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:+ Show Spoiler +nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. On January 21 2025 08:41 Zambrah wrote:On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:
nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. Its shameful were gonna have to do it again, but maybe this time we won't be so gracious. Noticing a lot of problems are from being nice to really bad people, should've cracked down harder on the Confederate South post war, should have cracked down harder on the Nazis. These are valid sentiments. Questions that need answering: 1. Where's the line/who is going to draw it? 2. Who do people imagine is going to do the killing of the fascists when they cross it? I don't think anyone believes it is going to be Democrats or that Democrats will let anyone else do it in their stead. Definitely gonna be a split within the Democrats as plenty of them are gonna absolutely side with the fascists by virtue of them being "legitimate" (legitimate in this case just meaning In Power) I think the rank and file members will probably be less involved in the kowtowing than the politicians, a sizeable chunk of whom I'd imagine just siding the fascists first chance they get if they think itll benefit them in any way. As for who is gonna start killing fascists, thats a tough one, I imagine it'll start with some massive atrocity, a lot of handwringing at the start, a lot of justification about why violence isnt the answer, and then I think it'll wind up in broader scale war-type stuff. Obviously the most marginalized communities will be doing the work at the start as they have to defend themselves, I think a majority of society will eventually fight the fascists though. This is all inane postulation on my part, I'm completely guesstimating based on history and my own thoughts about the state of the average person in the year of our dark lord 2025. I mean it wasn't the Germans that stopped the rise of fascism in the ~1920's-40's, I don't think it'll be USians stopping it in the ~2020's-40's. Libs/Dems/Republicans can't draw a line (they've demonstrated bipartisan support for genocide already) and still can't even imagine where they'd draw one today. Presumably some of them will still be alive and working as fascists while for some reason (probably personal, like them being next in the line of people targeted by fascists) being receptive to aiding an outside party in subversion. Then (presuming the fascists lose) the outside party will have to look at that subverter that worked as a fascist until the fascists started to target people like them and decide whether they deserve clemency or condemnation. "Lesser evilism" will be a sort of modern version of "just following orders" when that time comes. EDIT: So were still left wondering where the line will be drawn and who will draw/enforce it. No idea where the line drawn will be, probably notably further out than any civilized person would have wanted it to, somewhere past camps and somewhere into mass systematic killings is my guess. I will say that I dont see anyone else fighting and killing fascists in any major way in the US, I think it'll be closer to Civil War style than World War style
The North beat the South in part because they had significant strategic and systemic advantages that are in no way replicated in the fascist vs anti-fascist dynamic we face in the US currently.
What I see as far more likely based on the current evidence is that the lines will continue to be drawn by several groups as they/their comrades are targeted by fascists until there's only one side (and "pragmatic lesser evilists" lol) left in the civil war (sorta like 1930's Germany). Then they will focus more on their international fascist endeavors.
I expect Europe to be complicit appeasers and the US to find opposition to it's attempt to take its open fascism global from the East and Global South. Who will ultimately win is probably nobody, and humans will just end up "fighting World War IV with sticks and stones".
A small part of me still believes there are enough "progressives/social dems/etc" that can recognize the necessity of the revolution you're describing and they will take this opportunity to course correct and get organized as socialists. Then I watch some Pod Save America type content or read a lib/Dem post here and have that optimism bleed out of me like a stuck pig.
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I dunno, I honestly dont see the US military siding with the fascists in the foreseeable future, I see them not being very willing to strike hard against the fascists, but I dont see the military being used in force by the fascists tbh, maybe in another 20 - 40 years when the fascists have done more work in infiltrating and filtering out opposition, but atm I think society vs fascists has society winning the majority of the time
I don't see foreign powers doing shit, we still have nuclear arms and I dont think anyone wants to FAFO with that in a time of desperate political upheaval, best the US gets is moral support from abroad
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On January 22 2025 04:08 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2025 03:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 22 2025 02:25 Zambrah wrote:On January 21 2025 14:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 21 2025 13:36 Zambrah wrote:On January 21 2025 13:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:+ Show Spoiler +nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. On January 21 2025 08:41 Zambrah wrote:On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:
nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. Its shameful were gonna have to do it again, but maybe this time we won't be so gracious. Noticing a lot of problems are from being nice to really bad people, should've cracked down harder on the Confederate South post war, should have cracked down harder on the Nazis. These are valid sentiments. Questions that need answering: 1. Where's the line/who is going to draw it? 2. Who do people imagine is going to do the killing of the fascists when they cross it? I don't think anyone believes it is going to be Democrats or that Democrats will let anyone else do it in their stead. Definitely gonna be a split within the Democrats as plenty of them are gonna absolutely side with the fascists by virtue of them being "legitimate" (legitimate in this case just meaning In Power) I think the rank and file members will probably be less involved in the kowtowing than the politicians, a sizeable chunk of whom I'd imagine just siding the fascists first chance they get if they think itll benefit them in any way. As for who is gonna start killing fascists, thats a tough one, I imagine it'll start with some massive atrocity, a lot of handwringing at the start, a lot of justification about why violence isnt the answer, and then I think it'll wind up in broader scale war-type stuff. Obviously the most marginalized communities will be doing the work at the start as they have to defend themselves, I think a majority of society will eventually fight the fascists though. This is all inane postulation on my part, I'm completely guesstimating based on history and my own thoughts about the state of the average person in the year of our dark lord 2025. I mean it wasn't the Germans that stopped the rise of fascism in the ~1920's-40's, I don't think it'll be USians stopping it in the ~2020's-40's. Libs/Dems/Republicans can't draw a line (they've demonstrated bipartisan support for genocide already) and still can't even imagine where they'd draw one today. Presumably some of them will still be alive and working as fascists while for some reason (probably personal, like them being next in the line of people targeted by fascists) being receptive to aiding an outside party in subversion. Then (presuming the fascists lose) the outside party will have to look at that subverter that worked as a fascist until the fascists started to target people like them and decide whether they deserve clemency or condemnation. "Lesser evilism" will be a sort of modern version of "just following orders" when that time comes. EDIT: So were still left wondering where the line will be drawn and who will draw/enforce it. No idea where the line drawn will be, probably notably further out than any civilized person would have wanted it to, somewhere past camps and somewhere into mass systematic killings is my guess. I will say that I dont see anyone else fighting and killing fascists in any major way in the US, I think it'll be closer to Civil War style than World War style The North beat the South in part because they had significant strategic and systemic advantages that are in no way replicated in the fascist vs anti-fascist dynamic we face in the US currently. What I see as far more likely based on the current evidence is that the lines will continue to be drawn by several groups as they/their comrades are targeted by fascists until there's only one side (and "pragmatic lesser evilists" lol) left in the civil war (sorta like 1930's Germany). Then they will focus more on their international fascist endeavors. I expect Europe to be complicit appeasers and the US to find opposition to it's attempt to take its open fascism global from the East and Global South. Who will ultimately win is probably nobody, and humans will just end up "fighting World War IV with sticks and stones". A small part of me still believes there are enough "progressives/social dems/etc" that can recognize the necessity of the revolution you're describing and they will take this opportunity to course correct and get organized as socialists. Then I watch some Pod Save America type content or read a lib/Dem post here and have that optimism bleed out of me like a stuck pig. I dunno, I honestly dont see the US military siding with the fascists in the foreseeable future, I see them not being very willing to strike hard against the fascists, but I dont see the military being used in force by the fascists tbh, maybe in another 20 - 40 years when the fascists have done more work in infiltrating and filtering out opposition, but atm I think society vs fascists has society winning the majority of the time I don't see foreign powers doing shit, we still have nuclear arms and I dont think anyone wants to FAFO with that in a time of desperate political upheaval, best the US gets is moral support from abroad
The US military that did Abu Ghraib? The one that arms and trains a genocidal Israel? The one policing the public in NYC? I'm sorry, but I think they already side with fascists. Nevermind the actual neonazis and various forms of authoritarianism fans you find in the military.
That said, veterans went Trump ~65-35 so I wouldn't expect all of them to join the fascists. It's probably more evenly split among younger/active duty troops, but it's still ~half of the military that is already supporting Trump. You're not wrong to suggest watching the military to see if there are significant changes as an indication especially dangerous moves are being made. Though I doubt it would take 20-40 years.
Small upside is that it still looks like Trump isn't faking his rapacious incompetence and narcissism so hopefully the fascists that support him take a backseat to his insatiable need to enrich himself and have his ass kissed. Buuuut the wealthiest person in the country doing Nazi salutes on Trump's stage and pushing far right politics in Germany poses dangerous overlapping potential for Trump's greed and fascism generally.
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Oh is he going to do the China-Taiwan thing and insist everyone in the world calls it what he wants it to be called?
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This is legit toddler behavior what. Who the fuck cares.
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On January 22 2025 05:57 Uldridge wrote:
This is legit toddler behavior what. Who the fuck cares.
His voters. If you got absolutely nothing to be proud about, you can still be proud about your country.
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Look like we're running a kintergarten now boys. Who's bringing the books with the different textures to make them comfortable to what's out there? Gonna be 4 years of tantrums and airplane noises to make them eat their vegetables. Buckle up (and pull yourself up by your bootraps), we got work to do.
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On January 22 2025 05:11 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2025 04:08 Zambrah wrote:On January 22 2025 03:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 22 2025 02:25 Zambrah wrote:On January 21 2025 14:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 21 2025 13:36 Zambrah wrote:On January 21 2025 13:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:+ Show Spoiler +nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. On January 21 2025 08:41 Zambrah wrote:On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:
nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. Its shameful were gonna have to do it again, but maybe this time we won't be so gracious. Noticing a lot of problems are from being nice to really bad people, should've cracked down harder on the Confederate South post war, should have cracked down harder on the Nazis. These are valid sentiments. Questions that need answering: 1. Where's the line/who is going to draw it? 2. Who do people imagine is going to do the killing of the fascists when they cross it? I don't think anyone believes it is going to be Democrats or that Democrats will let anyone else do it in their stead. Definitely gonna be a split within the Democrats as plenty of them are gonna absolutely side with the fascists by virtue of them being "legitimate" (legitimate in this case just meaning In Power) I think the rank and file members will probably be less involved in the kowtowing than the politicians, a sizeable chunk of whom I'd imagine just siding the fascists first chance they get if they think itll benefit them in any way. As for who is gonna start killing fascists, thats a tough one, I imagine it'll start with some massive atrocity, a lot of handwringing at the start, a lot of justification about why violence isnt the answer, and then I think it'll wind up in broader scale war-type stuff. Obviously the most marginalized communities will be doing the work at the start as they have to defend themselves, I think a majority of society will eventually fight the fascists though. This is all inane postulation on my part, I'm completely guesstimating based on history and my own thoughts about the state of the average person in the year of our dark lord 2025. I mean it wasn't the Germans that stopped the rise of fascism in the ~1920's-40's, I don't think it'll be USians stopping it in the ~2020's-40's. Libs/Dems/Republicans can't draw a line (they've demonstrated bipartisan support for genocide already) and still can't even imagine where they'd draw one today. Presumably some of them will still be alive and working as fascists while for some reason (probably personal, like them being next in the line of people targeted by fascists) being receptive to aiding an outside party in subversion. Then (presuming the fascists lose) the outside party will have to look at that subverter that worked as a fascist until the fascists started to target people like them and decide whether they deserve clemency or condemnation. "Lesser evilism" will be a sort of modern version of "just following orders" when that time comes. EDIT: So were still left wondering where the line will be drawn and who will draw/enforce it. No idea where the line drawn will be, probably notably further out than any civilized person would have wanted it to, somewhere past camps and somewhere into mass systematic killings is my guess. I will say that I dont see anyone else fighting and killing fascists in any major way in the US, I think it'll be closer to Civil War style than World War style The North beat the South in part because they had significant strategic and systemic advantages that are in no way replicated in the fascist vs anti-fascist dynamic we face in the US currently. What I see as far more likely based on the current evidence is that the lines will continue to be drawn by several groups as they/their comrades are targeted by fascists until there's only one side (and "pragmatic lesser evilists" lol) left in the civil war (sorta like 1930's Germany). Then they will focus more on their international fascist endeavors. I expect Europe to be complicit appeasers and the US to find opposition to it's attempt to take its open fascism global from the East and Global South. Who will ultimately win is probably nobody, and humans will just end up "fighting World War IV with sticks and stones". A small part of me still believes there are enough "progressives/social dems/etc" that can recognize the necessity of the revolution you're describing and they will take this opportunity to course correct and get organized as socialists. Then I watch some Pod Save America type content or read a lib/Dem post here and have that optimism bleed out of me like a stuck pig. I dunno, I honestly dont see the US military siding with the fascists in the foreseeable future, I see them not being very willing to strike hard against the fascists, but I dont see the military being used in force by the fascists tbh, maybe in another 20 - 40 years when the fascists have done more work in infiltrating and filtering out opposition, but atm I think society vs fascists has society winning the majority of the time I don't see foreign powers doing shit, we still have nuclear arms and I dont think anyone wants to FAFO with that in a time of desperate political upheaval, best the US gets is moral support from abroad The US military that did Abu Ghraib? The one that arms and trains a genocidal Israel? The one policing the public in NYC? I'm sorry, but I think they already side with fascists. Nevermind the actual neonazis and various forms of authoritarianism fans you find in the military. That said, veterans went Trump ~65-35 so I wouldn't expect all of them to join the fascists. It's probably more evenly split among younger/active duty troops, but it's still ~half of the military that is already supporting Trump. You're not wrong to suggest watching the military to see if there are significant changes as an indication especially dangerous moves are being made. Though I doubt it would take 20-40 years. Small upside is that it still looks like Trump isn't faking his rapacious incompetence and narcissism so hopefully the fascists that support him take a backseat to his insatiable need to enrich himself and have his ass kissed. Buuuut the wealthiest person in the country doing Nazi salutes on Trump's stage and pushing far right politics in Germany poses dangerous overlapping potential for Trump's greed and fascism generally.
The US military killing brown foreigners is different than the police killing brown americans, the police are far more fully fascistized imo, or at the very least infinitely more accepting of it than the military, the highest ranks of the military I think would more probably not fold over ('til theyre replaced with fascists, 20 - 40 years is my guesstimate timeline for that) Cops are used to killing and fucking with citizens, the military doesnt engage with the citizenry like that nearly as much (thats what the FBI is for! I definitely see them going SS-style before the military flips)
As for Trump, yeah I dont think hes a proper fascist flag holder in any serious ideological way, hes fascist for his own gain and thats why my timelines for fascitic takeovers are more in the 20 - 40 year range, gives them time to build more power and get a proper ideologically committed fascist psychopath leader in charge, capture the military, etc.
Naturally Democrats will do fuck all to stop any of this in any meaningful way and on any level, throwing this in here because I am filled with irritation and disgust thinking through these sorts of scenarios and seeing how Democrats did little to nothing to stop any of it. Spineless fuckin' shits.
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If what Elon did wasn’t a Nazi salute, then do it tomorrow at work
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I mean if we cannot agree on this we are full 1984 mode. He needs to at least come out and aplogize or explain himself.
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On January 22 2025 06:41 Mohdoo wrote:
If what Elon did wasn’t a Nazi salute, then do it tomorrow at work
If you live in the USA, seems like chances are you'll get a bunch of "not nazi salutes" back.
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On January 22 2025 07:00 Sadist wrote:
I mean if we cannot agree on this we are full 1984 mode. He needs to at least come out and aplogize or explain himself. Why?
I'm totally a nazi that purposefully did the nazi salute twice(!) but i'm sorry so now its ok?
What does him apologizing or explaining himself do? Its not going to stop him from being a nazi that is also one of the wealthiest and most powerful people on the planet.
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EPT
