|
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On January 21 2025 08:43 micronesia wrote:
"Cracking down harder" after WW1 is how WW2 happened. Cracking down harder after WW2 would have just moved us into WW3 within a few years. I'm all about no tolerance for modern nazis, but let's be careful. Cracking down harder on the Confederate states would have likely led to Civil War 2 (CW2). That's not to say post-war was handled perfectly, but it's not as simple as "crack down harder."
Im not generally for subjugation, but I disagree and think that letting the racists and cretins reintegrate so comfortably to society has basically been like removing cancerous tumors but not doing chemo so the cancer just comes back. This shit has to be stopped significantly more thoroughly in the future, hasnt even been 100 years and people are back to feeling comfortable being Nazis
|
United States24767 Posts
Then what are you calling for, and will it require changing the constitution? I can't speak for other countries' legal systems, though.
|
Whenever we get to the next WW2 point and we start having to kill Nazis, I advocate not letting them live in anything more than prisons when we've culled them back.
|
United States24767 Posts
So you think the neonazis of today are the grandchildren/great grandchildren of the nazis who avoided execution and lifetime imprisonment? And the neonazis of today wouldn't have been born had those nazis been appropriately imprisoned for life or executed?
Or perhaps you see a direct line of indoctrination from those nazis to the neonazis of today? Had we not let the nazi-aligned people (who didn't commit the main offenses) avoid imprisonment/execution, they never would have been able to groom the next generation of nazis (not necessarily their own descendants).
Is it one of those two things? I'm not sure how you draw the line between Nazis and Nazi-connected people and people who happen to be proximate to Nazis if the outcome of that determination is at a minimum lifetime imprisonment.
|
On January 21 2025 10:04 micronesia wrote:
So you think the neonazis of today are the grandchildren/great grandchildren of the nazis who avoided execution and lifetime imprisonment? And the neonazis of today wouldn't have been born had those nazis been appropriately imprisoned for life or executed?
Or perhaps you see a direct line of indoctrination from those nazis to the neonazis of today? Had we not let the nazi-aligned people (who didn't commit the main offenses) avoid imprisonment/execution, they never would have been able to groom the next generation of nazis (not necessarily their own descendants).
Is it one of those two things? I'm not sure how you draw the line between Nazis and Nazi-connected people and people who happen to be proximate to Nazis if the outcome of that determination is at a minimum lifetime imprisonment.
Its a combination of those things, I think the reconciliatory attitude towards people like those in the antebellum south after the Civil War let their shitty ideology flourish in the aftermath as well as let them continue their human rights abuses.
Nazis got recruited, many were considered useful enough to escape consequences for their vile participation in a World History All Time Evils level government, free to pollute society.
Nazism has to be quashed aggressively and (a very important and) society has to make a half-way decent effort to stop the rise of future fascism. Dont kowtow to it, when it rises make sure everyone knows its socially acceptable to beat their asses if they step foot in public, make sure people aren't desperate enough to fall for fascistic bullshit.
At this point I dont really believe we're going to see fascism subside meaningfully, so it'll eventually take firm hold and we'll have to go through another Killin' Nazis phase, so hopefully we'll make sure that rich and powerful Nazis are not protected and that after they're dead that society actually has to make some effort to give people a minimum level of dignity to their lives so noone is in a position to be easily swayed by fascist's and their trash ideology again.
The work will never truly end, but hopefully when it crops up we'll be significantly meaner and more aggressive about killing it in it's infancy.
|
United States43817 Posts
I think he was arguing about ideological propagation rather than genetic propagation. Certainly the confederacy was allowed to propagate its ideas. Its champions ruled after Lincoln’s assassination.
|
On January 21 2025 10:15 KwarK wrote:
I think he was arguing about ideological propagation rather than genetic propagation. Certainly the confederacy was allowed to propagate its ideas. Its champions ruled after Lincoln’s assassination.
I dont think the ideology spreads as easily without so many proponents of the ideology living, they pass it on to their kids, their kids pass it on, teach others, etc. Obviously ideology isn't genetic or anything, but having parents who are Nazis is gonna increase the number of future Nazis, and even if its publicly reviled they'll still teach their kids and pass it down 'til its not so socially unacceptable. Have to prevent fascism on multiple levels and be prepared to do so repeatedly when it springs up imo, people aren't good at learning long term lessons so we need to make sure that any time that lesson starts needing learned we take it very seriously before it gets too bad, aka exactly not like what happened this time lol
|
United States24767 Posts
I do think there were many cases where people were not properly held to account after the Civil War, WW2, etc, and agree that was a mistake. I think that's only a piece of what gives rise to all this shit decades later, though.
|
Sure, Im not saying its the only thing, but given fascism is having a serious resurgence I pretty strongly believe that when we next have to kill Nazis that we do a more thorough job alongside the other things I said like beating them up in public when they feel their ideology is even vaguely socially acceptable, make a better world where fascism isnt appealing etc.
|
On January 21 2025 10:46 Zambrah wrote:
Sure, Im not saying its the only thing, but given fascism is having a serious resurgence I pretty strongly believe that when we next have to kill Nazis that we do a more thorough job alongside the other things I said like beating them up in public when they feel their ideology is even vaguely socially acceptable, make a better world where fascism isnt appealing etc.
Possibly a hot take but I think most of them were taken along for the ride little by little rather than being true believers. If they'd go back in time and tell their 2015 selves that in 10 years they'd be spending their time making rape apologetics and Nazi apologetics they wouldn't believe themselves.
But they're too invested now, it's sunk cost. They argued with family, coworkers, neighbours defending Trump and this movement, they wrote comments about it using their socials, it became part of their identity. Month by month there was slightly more shit to defend and after so many years it accumulated into a mountain of shit that they wouldn't have dreamt of ever defending. It's fascism by inertia.
|
United States43817 Posts
Fascism has always been pretty popular with about 30% of people everywhere. It’s like any other cult. There’s no population in the world where cults don’t have any success, some people like to be told there’s a strong man and an enemy and a plan to defeat the enemy.
The failure has been in the institutions and the other 70% to stop that 30% that were always going to support fascism taking power.
|
Antifa have existed for many decades and they haven't been able to prevent the rise of fascism despite beating up neo-nazis and the likes all over the globe. If anything, fascists have been making great use of the fact that they got beat up as a propaganda tool among themselves that they're fighting a war against violently insane people. The term "Trump derangement syndrome" came exactly from such a successful campaign to paint themselves as the victims.
I'd argue violence can't suppress fascism. I think every few generations people just have to deal with the new fascists no matter what. They can't be stamped out for good, it's a new fight every single time. We were lucky to have been fighting it in the form of information warfare and policies instead of a real war. That precious time might end eventually, but hopefully not too soon.
|
On January 21 2025 11:08 Magic Powers wrote:
Antifa have existed for many decades and they haven't been able to prevent the rise of fascism despite beating up neo-nazis and the likes all over the globe. If anything, fascists have been making great use of the fact that they got beat up as a propaganda tool among themselves that they're fighting a war against violently insane people. The term "Trump derangement syndrome" came exactly from such a successful campaign to paint themselves as the victims.
I'd argue violence can't suppress fascism. I think every few generations people just have to deal with the new fascists no matter what. They can't be stamped out for good, it's a new fight every single time. We were lucky to have been fighting it in the form of information warfare and policies instead of a real war. That precious time might end eventually, but hopefully not too soon.
See this is where we disagree, I think violence absolutely suppresses fascism, I think it'd still be suppressed but society decided that the Marketplace of Ideas was a good enough deterrent.
The Nazis need their asses beaten, they need to be frightened of being Nazis anywhere but whatever dark corners of their shitty little lives they can keep totally private.
We can't stomp them out permanently, but we can stomp them down every time they come up and make sure to grind the heel while we're doing it so they don't feel so comfortable trying again so soon.
The real problem is that people have forgotten how damn useful violence is, an unbelievable amount of the truly fundamental good shit we enjoy today is the result of violence. Labor rights were not given, they were taken, the laws were written in blood. Black people would probably still be fuckin' slaves today if not for the Civil War. We'd probably still have monarchies and other aristocracy bullshit if not for the revolutions from like the French Revolution onwards.
Violence is 100% absolutely a solution, its not always the solution, but its one of the strongest solutions people have.
|
Fucking Nazis, whodathunkit
|
On January 21 2025 11:17 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2025 11:08 Magic Powers wrote:
Antifa have existed for many decades and they haven't been able to prevent the rise of fascism despite beating up neo-nazis and the likes all over the globe. If anything, fascists have been making great use of the fact that they got beat up as a propaganda tool among themselves that they're fighting a war against violently insane people. The term "Trump derangement syndrome" came exactly from such a successful campaign to paint themselves as the victims.
I'd argue violence can't suppress fascism. I think every few generations people just have to deal with the new fascists no matter what. They can't be stamped out for good, it's a new fight every single time. We were lucky to have been fighting it in the form of information warfare and policies instead of a real war. That precious time might end eventually, but hopefully not too soon. See this is where we disagree, I think violence absolutely suppresses fascism, I think it'd still be suppressed but society decided that the Marketplace of Ideas was a good enough deterrent. The Nazis need their asses beaten, they need to be frightened of being Nazis anywhere but whatever dark corners of their shitty little lives they can keep totally private. We can't stomp them out permanently, but we can stomp them down every time they come up and make sure to grind the heel while we're doing it so they don't feel so comfortable trying again so soon. The real problem is that people have forgotten how damn useful violence is, an unbelievable amount of the truly fundamental good shit we enjoy today is the result of violence. Labor rights were not given, they were taken, the laws were written in blood. Black people would probably still be fuckin' slaves today if not for the Civil War. We'd probably still have monarchies and other aristocracy bullshit if not for the revolutions from like the French Revolution onwards. Violence is 100% absolutely a solution, its not always the solution, but its one of the strongest solutions people have.
I see your argument in favor of violence, but I would make a clear distinction between plain old regular street violence like between gangs, and straight up war. War has resulted in various successes. That's because the optics of a war are decided prior to war. All debates are already over when it starts, so the optics likely won't change very much during the war. Violence on the other hand can create poor optics over time, and that without a clear winner at the end of it. It has no end, it is the end in and of itself, meaning the violence will go on forever. That means it has eternal potential to create bad optics regardless of how many battles were won. This is especially true in the age of the internet where information spreads to every corner about the tiniest altercations. The right-wing is particularly apt at collecting footage of these altercations and using them for their propaganda.
|
Violence only has bad optics because society at large deems all violence bad. Thats sort of changing at the moment, theres a reason when someone like Luigi Mangione kills someone reviled people at large are shockingly okay with it, 'cause violence is sometimes okay, especially when its viewed as being done for a good reason.
|
On January 21 2025 11:32 Zambrah wrote:
Violence only has bad optics because society at large deems all violence bad. Thats sort of changing at the moment, theres a reason when someone like Luigi Mangione kills someone reviled people at large are shockingly okay with it, 'cause violence is sometimes okay, especially when its viewed as being done for a good reason.
Again I see your point but I think the general sentiment will change very quickly if you see dozens of CEOs hitting the cement within the span of a few weeks. That'll make people call for a manhunt, they won't cheer for another assassination.
The collective agreement was a sudden spur-of-the-moment thing and not based on a general lust for CEO blood. Over time the optics tend to flip against the violent side.
|
On January 21 2025 11:49 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2025 11:32 Zambrah wrote:
Violence only has bad optics because society at large deems all violence bad. Thats sort of changing at the moment, theres a reason when someone like Luigi Mangione kills someone reviled people at large are shockingly okay with it, 'cause violence is sometimes okay, especially when its viewed as being done for a good reason. Again I see your point but I think the general sentiment will change very quickly if you see dozens of CEOs hitting the cement within the span of a few weeks. That'll make people call for a manhunt, they won't cheer for another assassination. The collective agreement was a sudden spur-of-the-moment thing and not based on a general lust for CEO blood. Over time the optics tend to flip against the violent side.
I think at the moment its not a lust, but theres definitely an apathy for the lives of the rich and powerful in society atm. The optics on violence are gonna be fluctuating based on where society is, people dont give a shit about The Claims Adjustor murking the UHC CEO because that class of people (and the healthcare sector in particular) is very much seen as abusive, if UHC had been a model healthcare provider then people would be upset at their CEO getting killed.
So long as we're seeing the capitalistic rot happening we're gonna see people get more and more tolerant of violence towards people they see as the problem. Fascists obviously want to direct that to the most vulnerable in society, thats part of their appeal for a lot of people, fascists give people a clear and easy target that they can score easy wins against, noone is winning against powerful billionaires without doing a Luigi to them.
Fascists are just gonna have an easier and easier time gaining power for a while, the times are ripe for it, violence is feeling more and more tolerable as people start to feel worse and worse about their lives.
|
Northern Ireland26505 Posts
On January 21 2025 11:04 KwarK wrote:
Fascism has always been pretty popular with about 30% of people everywhere. It’s like any other cult. There’s no population in the world where cults don’t have any success, some people like to be told there’s a strong man and an enemy and a plan to defeat the enemy.
The failure has been in the institutions and the other 70% to stop that 30% that were always going to support fascism taking power.
Indeedy, it’s like criminality, outside of some sci-fi utopia you’re always gonna have bad people. But conditions can certainly influence what proportion of folks would ideally like to do transgressive things, and those who actually do.
Hey I’m sure we’ve some new converts, but in many cases it’s just people being emboldened to put their head above the parapet and vocalise their existing beliefs.
Largely why I find the spineless, the ‘enlightened centrists’, the grifters so contemptible. Years of equivocation, devil’s advocacy and marriages of convenience while being perpetually warned it was enabling such a turning of the wheel and you end up here.
Good fucking job, truly a staggering collective failure all round. It’s not as if the whole shebang has been subtly orchestrated or people have plausibly had wool pulled over their eyes.
|
On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:+ Show Spoiler +nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil.
On January 21 2025 08:41 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2025 08:34 brian wrote:
nazi salute behind the seal of the president of the united states but both sides are the same. trumps a great president. people voted for this proudly.
sucks that next time the world decides to start killing nazis it’ll be on our soil. Its shameful were gonna have to do it again, but maybe this time we won't be so gracious. Noticing a lot of problems are from being nice to really bad people, should've cracked down harder on the Confederate South post war, should have cracked down harder on the Nazis.
These are valid sentiments.
Questions that need answering:
1. Where's the line/who is going to draw it?
2. Who do people imagine is going to do the killing of the fascists when they cross it?
I don't think anyone believes it is going to be Democrats or that Democrats will let anyone else do it in their stead.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
