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On November 07 2024 00:24 r00ty wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 00:16 DucK- wrote:
Eli5 please. I know nothing about us politics. All I know is the general sentiment outside US that Trump president is seen as not ideal. Yet us citizens voted for him.
So mainly 2 things.
What's good about him?
What's bad about kamala? I just spent the last 30 minutes trying to explain to my 80+ parents who have witnessed world war 2 how it is possible for this person + Show Spoiler + to become the "leader of the free world" again. Are you serious?
Have you been successful? Because i have been having a hard time understanding that myself.
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On November 07 2024 00:23 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 00:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2024 00:12 oBlade wrote:
You said Drumpf is objectively worse for the economy, you cannot possibly know that. I know it's all buried from hundreds of new posts over the past 24 hours, but there have been a ton of discussions in the past on how we know exactly that lol. On that specific topic (the economy), the issue is more with the optics / messaging / communicating the facts to the average voter. Democrats definitely need to study the Republican playbook on optics and messaging. Republicans are successful when they communicate lies in desirable ways, so maybe there's a chance that Democrats can learn how to communicate the truth in equally desirable ways. While you have been attempting to communicate to voters that pantsuited socialism is economically good for the voters, the voters have been communicating that it isn't. That is a two-way street. You have also spent thousands of pages of your life deriding Republicans and their policies as simply benefiting the rich. Presumably the rich have different economic interests than the not rich. Did it not occur to you that even in your own bullshit logic that the economic interests of Republican voters and Democratic voters are simply different?Yes the people who rely on the government vote for more government programs. Yes the people who pay taxes vote for fewer.
So the average Republican voter isn't looking to make more money, have a stable job, buy more affordable goods and services, and be able to provide for their family and community? Citation is super needed, my friend.
Also... socialism? Really?
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On November 07 2024 00:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 00:02 Uldridge wrote:
It's bad if he votes in spite of you, yeah. Look at where it's getting you.
Build bridges. Try to understand them. I think that's important. Democrats should start surveying people as early as today to find out what the biggest reasons were for Harris's loss. And keep doing it for four years, so that they have some robust information on how best to appeal to voters and effectively communicate that appeal.
This is not right. The dems literally did this already. Harris and Walz talked about ways to fix the grievances these people supposedly had. Still got washed. So trying to understand them doesn't make any fucking difference. Harris and Walz lost because this country is fucking stupid.
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On November 07 2024 00:29 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 00:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2024 00:02 Uldridge wrote:
It's bad if he votes in spite of you, yeah. Look at where it's getting you.
Build bridges. Try to understand them. I think that's important. Democrats should start surveying people as early as today to find out what the biggest reasons were for Harris's loss. And keep doing it for four years, so that they have some robust information on how best to appeal to voters and effectively communicate that appeal. This is not right. The dems literally did this already. Harris and Walz talked about ways to fix the grievances these people supposedly had. Still got washed. So trying to understand them doesn't make any fucking difference. Harris and Walz lost because this country is fucking stupid.
Yeah. It is weird how this thread has been rightwingers claiming that Harris didn't say or do X was the main problem, and then someone shows that Harris did exactly that thing.
It seems that that kind of information simply never ends up with the people who should hear it.
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On November 07 2024 00:29 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 00:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2024 00:02 Uldridge wrote:
It's bad if he votes in spite of you, yeah. Look at where it's getting you.
Build bridges. Try to understand them. I think that's important. Democrats should start surveying people as early as today to find out what the biggest reasons were for Harris's loss. And keep doing it for four years, so that they have some robust information on how best to appeal to voters and effectively communicate that appeal. This is not right. The dems literally did this already. Harris and Walz talked about ways to fix the grievances these people supposedly had. Still got washed. So trying to understand them doesn't make any fucking difference. Harris and Walz lost because this country is fucking stupid.
Yes, a lot of voters are fucking stupid. But they still vote. And they'll vote next time, and the time after that. I don't want Republicans to win forever, so I think it's important for Democrats to figure out what the best strategies are for 2028.
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On November 07 2024 00:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 00:23 oBlade wrote:On November 07 2024 00:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2024 00:12 oBlade wrote:
You said Drumpf is objectively worse for the economy, you cannot possibly know that. I know it's all buried from hundreds of new posts over the past 24 hours, but there have been a ton of discussions in the past on how we know exactly that lol. On that specific topic (the economy), the issue is more with the optics / messaging / communicating the facts to the average voter. Democrats definitely need to study the Republican playbook on optics and messaging. Republicans are successful when they communicate lies in desirable ways, so maybe there's a chance that Democrats can learn how to communicate the truth in equally desirable ways. While you have been attempting to communicate to voters that pantsuited socialism is economically good for the voters, the voters have been communicating that it isn't. That is a two-way street. You have also spent thousands of pages of your life deriding Republicans and their policies as simply benefiting the rich. Presumably the rich have different economic interests than the not rich. Did it not occur to you that even in your own bullshit logic that the economic interests of Republican voters and Democratic voters are simply different?Yes the people who rely on the government vote for more government programs. Yes the people who pay taxes vote for fewer. So the average Republican voter isn't looking to make more money, have a stable job, buy more affordable goods and services, and be able to provide for their family and community? Citation is super needed, my friend.
Again we come to the great impasse. Either they want all those things, and
1) Think you are wrong
or
2) Are so racist against half-black candidates who aren't named Obama that they are willing to sacrifice the equivalent of median $50k a year of prosperity just to stick it to minorities.
In this case Occam's Razor is enough to invalidate Poe's Law, I would say.
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On November 07 2024 00:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 00:29 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On November 07 2024 00:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2024 00:02 Uldridge wrote:
It's bad if he votes in spite of you, yeah. Look at where it's getting you.
Build bridges. Try to understand them. I think that's important. Democrats should start surveying people as early as today to find out what the biggest reasons were for Harris's loss. And keep doing it for four years, so that they have some robust information on how best to appeal to voters and effectively communicate that appeal. This is not right. The dems literally did this already. Harris and Walz talked about ways to fix the grievances these people supposedly had. Still got washed. So trying to understand them doesn't make any fucking difference. Harris and Walz lost because this country is fucking stupid. Yes, a lot of voters are fucking stupid. But they still vote. And they'll vote next time, and the time after that. I don't want Republicans to win forever, so I think it's important for Democrats to figure out what the best strategies are for 2028.
There is no strategy beyond just run a white male. That's literally it. That's the only strategy. So they better start grooming Newsome because he's next.
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Spain2879 Posts
On November 07 2024 00:34 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 00:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2024 00:23 oBlade wrote:On November 07 2024 00:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2024 00:12 oBlade wrote:
You said Drumpf is objectively worse for the economy, you cannot possibly know that. I know it's all buried from hundreds of new posts over the past 24 hours, but there have been a ton of discussions in the past on how we know exactly that lol. On that specific topic (the economy), the issue is more with the optics / messaging / communicating the facts to the average voter. Democrats definitely need to study the Republican playbook on optics and messaging. Republicans are successful when they communicate lies in desirable ways, so maybe there's a chance that Democrats can learn how to communicate the truth in equally desirable ways. While you have been attempting to communicate to voters that pantsuited socialism is economically good for the voters, the voters have been communicating that it isn't. That is a two-way street. You have also spent thousands of pages of your life deriding Republicans and their policies as simply benefiting the rich. Presumably the rich have different economic interests than the not rich. Did it not occur to you that even in your own bullshit logic that the economic interests of Republican voters and Democratic voters are simply different?Yes the people who rely on the government vote for more government programs. Yes the people who pay taxes vote for fewer. So the average Republican voter isn't looking to make more money, have a stable job, buy more affordable goods and services, and be able to provide for their family and community? Citation is super needed, my friend. Again we come to the great impasse. Either they want all those things, and 1) Think you are wrong or 2) Are so racist against half-black candidates who aren't named Obama that they are willing to sacrifice the equivalent of median $50k a year of prosperity just to stick it to minorities. In this case Occam's Razor is enough to invalidate Poe's Law, I would say.
DPB's point is that both democratic voters and republican voters want the same thing, i.e. more money in their pockets and a better quality of life. The stated republican approach is to start a tariff war with every global economy; how does this help?
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Yes Republicans voted against their own interests.
If their interests are more money in their pocket then Trump is against their interests since tariffs will accomplish the exact opposite. And if he actually does go after illegals good prices will go up as their cheap labour gets deported.
Yes the problem for Democrats is messaging, they have a plan but no one is bothering to listen. And when Harris does talk about it the media is full of 'its not specific enough' while Trump has no plan and that is fine.
The answer is right there and I think it was Kwark that alluded to it earlier.
Just lie
don't talk about the real world, don't talk about what your actually going to do because the voters don't give a shit. Promise them a pony and free beer for everyone and don't worry about how you will accomplish that because you simply don't do it and no one will care for your broken promises in 4 years.
If people feel like they are better of today then they were a year ago the incumbent wins. If they feel like they are worse off they lose. That's it. There is no magic, words don't have meaning because no one listens. If Democrats want to win in 2028 then make sure the economy tanks and they will win.
(and yes I agree Democrats ran on fear while Republicans ran on anger and anger just does better.)
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On November 07 2024 00:28 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 00:24 r00ty wrote:On November 07 2024 00:16 DucK- wrote:
Eli5 please. I know nothing about us politics. All I know is the general sentiment outside US that Trump president is seen as not ideal. Yet us citizens voted for him.
So mainly 2 things.
What's good about him?
What's bad about kamala? I just spent the last 30 minutes trying to explain to my 80+ parents who have witnessed world war 2 how it is possible for this person + Show Spoiler + to become the "leader of the free world" again. Are you serious? Have you been successful? Because i have been having a hard time understanding that myself.
Us too, but it boils down to "they are crazy, they want it and we need to deal with it and take care of ourselves."
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On November 06 2024 19:20 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 18:35 Uldridge wrote:On November 06 2024 18:05 Simberto wrote:
The US is just so completely lost.
I hope this will lead to europe getting our shit together and building a better world, less reliant on the idiocracy across the atlantic.
But realistically, we will just get the same shit in a few years. It has already been happening here, and with this victory of insanity it will likely only increase. Apparently the most idiotic of rightwing people have just figured out a brainhack in some way, and that is just the world we live in now.
I just don't know how to deal with this. Why are large parts of humanity like this? A two decades ago it looked as if we were making huge strides towards a better future. Now...not so much.
A sad day for humanity. Your AfD is on the rise. Our Vlaams Belang js on the rise. Populism and polarization is firmly on the tise. You better start understanding where they're coming from. Been saying that since 2016, but everyone keeps saying people on the right are morons and delusional. Whatever the truth is, they are people and they have voting power and disenfranchising them with your rhetoric will only tear your social fabric apart. I try to refrain from this kind of rhetoric like you (not just you specificallly Simberto), because I deem it highly corrosive. Keep thinking your side is the best for all humans (which it very well might be, might I add), but that's completely missing the point, and probably a lot of nuance that's at play here. As long as none of you truly understand what makes Trump so favorable, it will bite you in the ass over and over. Yeah, i know. But i am mostly just done. The rightwing people make it very, very hard to try to deal with them, meet them in the middle and try to get them back into reality, because they all the things they do and say they want are just so bad. For them, for society, for everything. And they are so very obnoxious about it, too. It is also annoying that apparently all of the impetus is on me and people like me to get the people who plainly believe just insane bullshit back, while those same people shout hateful shit all day. And the solution is supposed to be that i have to be very empathic and nice to them. And i have been trying. For a decade or more. But it just gets worse and worse. More insanity, more removal from reality, more rightwing hate, more conspiracy bullshit. It is very hard not to treat people like morons when they act like morons. It is hard to pretend people are adults when they clearly don't act that way themselves. I am just exhausted. I am of the opinion that a lot of the problems could be solved by doing some radical left stuff, but that ain't happening either. I think some of the reason that people drift towards insanity is that they feel lost economically. Rightwing conspiracies give them a nice, easy answer as to why that is, so they drift further and further in that direction. To prevent this, we need some good oldschool Klassenkampf. Redistribution of wealth, from the ultra rich to the poor, so that the poor don't feel the need to fight other poor over scraps from the rich mans table. But that is clearly not happening, if anything we are moving further and further away from that idea. So, i guess i will mostly just give up. Leave politics to the insane, try my best to survive. Hope that the insanity eventually just passes.
Honestly, I'm with you here.
I tried to be positive and excited about Democrats, I tried to care, but frankly they're such distrusted and worthless that I can't do it any more.
People can call me when they're ready to start behaving like a civilized people like the French, 'til then I am out, good luck with what you've sowed, try not to reap it too hard lmao.
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Northern Ireland26794 Posts
On November 07 2024 00:02 Uldridge wrote:
It's bad if he votes in spite of you, yeah. Look at where it's getting you.
Build bridges. Try to understand them.
Have you considered that many have tried and have just given up on doing one or either of those?
You can build bridges, find cordiality and understanding where there’s at least some potential for them, even if there’s some reticence initially.
If there’s interest and if x individual isn’t being disingenuous about what they’re telling you. Sure. I’ll take it on a case by case basis as I encounter people and whether I’ll give them my time. I’ll be a civil soul but I’m too burned out of this shite at this stage to actively look to build bridges
Go on somewhere like Truth Social and let me know how you get on finding all that bridge-building
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On November 07 2024 00:00 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 23:58 Uldridge wrote:
I'm not Republican. You say:
"The number one *stated* issue for Republicans was the economy. Their real number one issue was something else"
You don't get to decide what people actually voted for. This type of speech polarizes. I'm telling you to stop that kind of engagement because it's not helping anyone other than making sure you lose forever. Calling a dumbfuck a dumbfuck is bad. Got it.
I mean, the republican electorate are mainly people who would benefit immensely from a true universal healthcare, a free access to education, an immensely more progressive tax code and much more regulatioms to big corporations.
It’s been a theme for decades that their existence in american politics is one gigantic case of one giant crowd of turkeys voting for Christmas time and time again.
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On November 07 2024 00:34 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 00:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2024 00:23 oBlade wrote:On November 07 2024 00:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2024 00:12 oBlade wrote:
You said Drumpf is objectively worse for the economy, you cannot possibly know that. I know it's all buried from hundreds of new posts over the past 24 hours, but there have been a ton of discussions in the past on how we know exactly that lol. On that specific topic (the economy), the issue is more with the optics / messaging / communicating the facts to the average voter. Democrats definitely need to study the Republican playbook on optics and messaging. Republicans are successful when they communicate lies in desirable ways, so maybe there's a chance that Democrats can learn how to communicate the truth in equally desirable ways. While you have been attempting to communicate to voters that pantsuited socialism is economically good for the voters, the voters have been communicating that it isn't. That is a two-way street. You have also spent thousands of pages of your life deriding Republicans and their policies as simply benefiting the rich. Presumably the rich have different economic interests than the not rich. Did it not occur to you that even in your own bullshit logic that the economic interests of Republican voters and Democratic voters are simply different?Yes the people who rely on the government vote for more government programs. Yes the people who pay taxes vote for fewer. So the average Republican voter isn't looking to make more money, have a stable job, buy more affordable goods and services, and be able to provide for their family and community? Citation is super needed, my friend. Again we come to the great impasse. Either they want all those things, and 1) Think you are wrong or 2) Are so racist against half-black candidates who aren't named Obama that they are willing to sacrifice the equivalent of median $50k a year of prosperity just to stick it to minorities. In this case Occam's Razor is enough to invalidate Poe's Law, I would say.
You can't have it both ways. Harris's policies aimed for those economic benefits I just listed, and Trump's "policies" don't. Then you said that Republicans don't actually want those economic benefits because only Democrats want them, but now you're saying that Republicans might want them because Republicans aren't racist?
If Republicans don't want those same benefits, then fine, but post a source for your assertion. If Republicans do want them, then the issue is the Democratic messaging on the economy, which is what I said from the beginning.
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I remember I was playing chess with a guy, he developed his pieces while keeping his king unsafe in the center against his own interests and then checkmated me. This is the typical Republican voter, am I right? Doesn't understand the basics.
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Spain2879 Posts
I wonder if Trump's base enthusiasm will be dented when the Trump tax cuts expire in the middle of his new term.
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On November 07 2024 00:37 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 00:34 oBlade wrote:On November 07 2024 00:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2024 00:23 oBlade wrote:On November 07 2024 00:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2024 00:12 oBlade wrote:
You said Drumpf is objectively worse for the economy, you cannot possibly know that. I know it's all buried from hundreds of new posts over the past 24 hours, but there have been a ton of discussions in the past on how we know exactly that lol. On that specific topic (the economy), the issue is more with the optics / messaging / communicating the facts to the average voter. Democrats definitely need to study the Republican playbook on optics and messaging. Republicans are successful when they communicate lies in desirable ways, so maybe there's a chance that Democrats can learn how to communicate the truth in equally desirable ways. While you have been attempting to communicate to voters that pantsuited socialism is economically good for the voters, the voters have been communicating that it isn't. That is a two-way street. You have also spent thousands of pages of your life deriding Republicans and their policies as simply benefiting the rich. Presumably the rich have different economic interests than the not rich. Did it not occur to you that even in your own bullshit logic that the economic interests of Republican voters and Democratic voters are simply different?Yes the people who rely on the government vote for more government programs. Yes the people who pay taxes vote for fewer. So the average Republican voter isn't looking to make more money, have a stable job, buy more affordable goods and services, and be able to provide for their family and community? Citation is super needed, my friend. Again we come to the great impasse. Either they want all those things, and 1) Think you are wrong or 2) Are so racist against half-black candidates who aren't named Obama that they are willing to sacrifice the equivalent of median $50k a year of prosperity just to stick it to minorities. In this case Occam's Razor is enough to invalidate Poe's Law, I would say. DPB's point is that both democratic voters and republican voters want the same thing, i.e. more money in their pockets and a better quality of life. The stated republican approach is to start a tariff war with every global economy; how does this help?
Yes, thank you. I'm not sure if my post was unclear or if oBlade truly believes that conservatives don't want an economically better quality of life.
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On November 07 2024 00:28 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 00:24 r00ty wrote:On November 07 2024 00:16 DucK- wrote:
Eli5 please. I know nothing about us politics. All I know is the general sentiment outside US that Trump president is seen as not ideal. Yet us citizens voted for him.
So mainly 2 things.
What's good about him?
What's bad about kamala? I just spent the last 30 minutes trying to explain to my 80+ parents who have witnessed world war 2 how it is possible for this person + Show Spoiler + to become the "leader of the free world" again. Are you serious? Have you been successful? Because i have been having a hard time understanding that myself.
I talked to my 77 year old grandma who lives in a suburb in Toronto , Canada and she 100% on board with Trump.
She ran a medical lab for 30 years; she worked with Bob Rae as prez of a medical staff workers union in the 80's and 90's to negotiate massive pay raises for medical support staff like X-ray techs,.MRI techs etc. She worked emergency room midnights. People died every week on her shifts..gunshot wounds stabbings... She is sorta like a Canadian Judge Judy.
I am a foot taller than her and yet I am still scared of her. 😀
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Spain2879 Posts
On November 07 2024 00:43 oBlade wrote:
I remember I was playing chess with a guy, he developed his pieces while keeping his king unsafe in the center against his own interests and then checkmated me. This is the typical Republican voter, am I right? Doesn't understand the basics.
You still haven't articulated in any of your posts how a Trump presidency and his stated economic policies benefit the economy.
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On November 07 2024 00:44 EnDeR_ wrote:
I wonder if Trump's base enthusiasm will be dented when the Trump tax cuts expire in the middle of his new term.
No more than Kamala's base will be wooed when the Republican trifecta simply renews them.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://www.rollingstone.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/trump-garage-truck-driver.jpg)
to become the "leader of the free world" again. Are you serious? 
