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On November 07 2024 00:43 oBlade wrote:
I remember I was playing chess with a guy, he developed his pieces while keeping his king unsafe in the center against his own interests and then checkmated me. This is the typical Republican voter, am I right? Doesn't understand the basics.
I mean, by your own admission you don't much understand chess either.
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On November 07 2024 00:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 00:02 Uldridge wrote:
It's bad if he votes in spite of you, yeah. Look at where it's getting you.
Build bridges. Try to understand them. I think that's important. Democrats should start surveying people as early as today to find out what the biggest reasons were for Harris's loss. And keep doing it for four years, so that they have some robust information on how best to appeal to voters and effectively communicate that appeal.
I'm not sure you'll find your smoking guns. Some things are intangible. But I hope it does end up with something useful if it is done.
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I honestly think the best thing the Democrats could do for America right now is absolutely FLOOD the internet with memes of Elon Musk as Batman and Trump as Robin.
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On November 07 2024 00:45 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 00:43 oBlade wrote:
I remember I was playing chess with a guy, he developed his pieces while keeping his king unsafe in the center against his own interests and then checkmated me. This is the typical Republican voter, am I right? Doesn't understand the basics. I mean, by your own admission you don't much understand chess either.
Because just like between left or right economic policy, if you had to choose between king safety or development, one is ALWAYS OBJECTIVELY correct and more important?
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On November 07 2024 00:25 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 00:21 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On November 07 2024 00:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2024 00:05 oBlade wrote:On November 06 2024 23:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 06 2024 23:52 oBlade wrote:
How have I misrepresented GDP? Because you said that GDP increased by 0.5% when it actually increased by 12.6%. From one week ago: As today’s release marks the final new quarter of GDP data to be released during the Biden-Harris administration, CEA wanted to review this important indicator’s record over the President’s term.[1] Along with a strong showing for Q3—real GDP increased at an annual rate of 2.8% in the quarter—we summarize the Biden-Harris administration’s economic growth record as follows:
Cumulatively, real GDP rose 12.6% since 2020Q4 during the Biden-Harris administration, a historically robust expansion. https://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/written-materials/2024/10/30/gdp-issue-brief/ Not at all what I was saying. My point is very simple. You don't know what "the economy" means so your reductive, and also ironically deductive, syllogism misses both what the economy is and what part of it people are concerned about. People do not give a shit about the GDP. What is this projection you're doing? Harris didn't run on GDP. I'm not talking about GDP. You're the only one talking about GDP. In terms of her economic plans, Harris ran on everyday, quality-of-life improvements for families and individuals. Either those policies weren't valued by the voters, or Harris failed to effectively communicate those policies to voters, or both. The Democrats did not discuss the American Dream. Working very hard in an environment of ample economic opportunity. That is a positive message. Lowering your costs because your income will never grow is depressing. Democrats seems to never discuss the difference a work ethic makes. They literally ran on an "Opportunity Economy" and making housing affordable and increasing workers rights and lowering costs. They literally did exactly what you're saying they didn't do.
Lowering costs is not the same thing as creating new economic opportunities.
Also, Democrats should spend more time acknowledging the crucial role individual decision making and hard work play in a person's economic success.
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On November 07 2024 00:21 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 00:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2024 00:05 oBlade wrote:On November 06 2024 23:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 06 2024 23:52 oBlade wrote:
How have I misrepresented GDP? Because you said that GDP increased by 0.5% when it actually increased by 12.6%. From one week ago: As today’s release marks the final new quarter of GDP data to be released during the Biden-Harris administration, CEA wanted to review this important indicator’s record over the President’s term.[1] Along with a strong showing for Q3—real GDP increased at an annual rate of 2.8% in the quarter—we summarize the Biden-Harris administration’s economic growth record as follows:
Cumulatively, real GDP rose 12.6% since 2020Q4 during the Biden-Harris administration, a historically robust expansion. https://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/written-materials/2024/10/30/gdp-issue-brief/ Not at all what I was saying. My point is very simple. You don't know what "the economy" means so your reductive, and also ironically deductive, syllogism misses both what the economy is and what part of it people are concerned about. People do not give a shit about the GDP. What is this projection you're doing? Harris didn't run on GDP. I'm not talking about GDP. You're the only one talking about GDP. In terms of her economic plans, Harris ran on everyday, quality-of-life improvements for families and individuals. Either those policies weren't valued by the voters, or Harris failed to effectively communicate those policies to voters, or both. The Democrats did not discuss the American Dream. Working very hard in an environment of ample economic opportunity. That is a positive message. Lowering your costs because your income will never grow is depressing. Democrats seems to never discuss the difference a work ethic makes.
The American Dream is a myth.
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On November 07 2024 00:50 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 00:21 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On November 07 2024 00:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2024 00:05 oBlade wrote:On November 06 2024 23:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 06 2024 23:52 oBlade wrote:
How have I misrepresented GDP? Because you said that GDP increased by 0.5% when it actually increased by 12.6%. From one week ago: As today’s release marks the final new quarter of GDP data to be released during the Biden-Harris administration, CEA wanted to review this important indicator’s record over the President’s term.[1] Along with a strong showing for Q3—real GDP increased at an annual rate of 2.8% in the quarter—we summarize the Biden-Harris administration’s economic growth record as follows:
Cumulatively, real GDP rose 12.6% since 2020Q4 during the Biden-Harris administration, a historically robust expansion. https://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/written-materials/2024/10/30/gdp-issue-brief/ Not at all what I was saying. My point is very simple. You don't know what "the economy" means so your reductive, and also ironically deductive, syllogism misses both what the economy is and what part of it people are concerned about. People do not give a shit about the GDP. What is this projection you're doing? Harris didn't run on GDP. I'm not talking about GDP. You're the only one talking about GDP. In terms of her economic plans, Harris ran on everyday, quality-of-life improvements for families and individuals. Either those policies weren't valued by the voters, or Harris failed to effectively communicate those policies to voters, or both. The Democrats did not discuss the American Dream. Working very hard in an environment of ample economic opportunity. That is a positive message. Lowering your costs because your income will never grow is depressing. Democrats seems to never discuss the difference a work ethic makes. The American Dream is a myth.
It is working for me. And I am pretty lazy. For 5 years I spent every waking moment either working exercising or sleeping. I will take credit for that. For the rest of my adult life I have been in coast mode working about 20 hours per week.
Sitting around pretending to work the rest of the time...like most tech workers.
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On November 07 2024 00:48 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 00:45 NewSunshine wrote:On November 07 2024 00:43 oBlade wrote:
I remember I was playing chess with a guy, he developed his pieces while keeping his king unsafe in the center against his own interests and then checkmated me. This is the typical Republican voter, am I right? Doesn't understand the basics. I mean, by your own admission you don't much understand chess either. Because just like between left or right economic policy, if you had to choose between king safety or development, one is ALWAYS OBJECTIVELY correct and more important?
Um, no.
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On November 07 2024 00:44 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 00:43 oBlade wrote:
I remember I was playing chess with a guy, he developed his pieces while keeping his king unsafe in the center against his own interests and then checkmated me. This is the typical Republican voter, am I right? Doesn't understand the basics. You still haven't articulated in any of your posts how a Trump presidency and his stated economic policies benefit the economy.
You don't get it. He doesn't have to.
The Democrats are the ones that had to do that. They're the ones that needed to explain to people "listen I know we're the party in power right now, and I know things are bad for you right now, but our plan is the better one, please elect us to 4 more years."
The default mindset of an uninformed American voter is that if things are bad right now, the guys in power are the ones responsible.
It's hilariously simplistic and stupid, but that's how people think about the economy. Inflation is Joe Biden's problem. It's his fault. And Democrats never did a good job of convincing people that they were handling it right and you have an entire right wing media blaming them for it constantly. Just like how the sub prime mortgage crisis was Bush Jr.s Fault even though the seeds were sewn for that disaster back in the 90's.
The Average Voter just doesn't pay attention that closely every single day to what is going on in economic news. They feel the impacts and they immediately blame the current party in power regardless of whose fault it actually is.
It is the burden of the party in power to actually GET OUT THERE and inform the public of what is going on and what they are doing to fix it.
Democrats never did that. Their campaign messaging wasn't about the economy, it wasn't about pretty much anything except how bad Donald Trump and the Republicans are.
So without any real policy messaging to cling to, the average American voter does what they always do when they are dealing with tough economic times. They kicked out the party that was in charge.
When Trump's tax increases hit in 2 years and Republicans have allowed another financial meltdown, the pendulum will swing back the other way but the damage at that point will already have been done.
This is the cycle of politics in our 2 party system. And the Democrats know it and they do a shit job of doing anything to disrupt it.
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On November 07 2024 00:44 EnDeR_ wrote:
I wonder if Trump's base enthusiasm will be dented when the Trump tax cuts expire in the middle of his new term.
I'm sure they will find a way to push that back
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United States10162 Posts
On November 07 2024 00:35 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 00:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2024 00:29 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On November 07 2024 00:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2024 00:02 Uldridge wrote:
It's bad if he votes in spite of you, yeah. Look at where it's getting you.
Build bridges. Try to understand them. I think that's important. Democrats should start surveying people as early as today to find out what the biggest reasons were for Harris's loss. And keep doing it for four years, so that they have some robust information on how best to appeal to voters and effectively communicate that appeal. This is not right. The dems literally did this already. Harris and Walz talked about ways to fix the grievances these people supposedly had. Still got washed. So trying to understand them doesn't make any fucking difference. Harris and Walz lost because this country is fucking stupid. Yes, a lot of voters are fucking stupid. But they still vote. And they'll vote next time, and the time after that. I don't want Republicans to win forever, so I think it's important for Democrats to figure out what the best strategies are for 2028. There is no strategy beyond just run a white male. That's literally it. That's the only strategy. So they better start grooming Newsome because he's next.
Buttigieg is a legitimate contender imo but the fact that he's gay could mean really bad news for him overall. Newsom being Californian is also going to look bad for him. I guess we could see someone like a Shapiro try to step up to be a candidate and throw his hat into the ring.
Ultimately, the nation is really really dumb. I can't grapple how the plurality of voters claimed that the economy was the #1 issue for them, while Trump and his policies are so backwards that every economist basically said, yeah this is gonna cost you so much more every year because of his tariffs, and then voters still end up voting for him. We have an uneducated voter problem in this country, and it's clearly not getting any better.
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On November 07 2024 00:54 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 00:44 EnDeR_ wrote:On November 07 2024 00:43 oBlade wrote:
I remember I was playing chess with a guy, he developed his pieces while keeping his king unsafe in the center against his own interests and then checkmated me. This is the typical Republican voter, am I right? Doesn't understand the basics. You still haven't articulated in any of your posts how a Trump presidency and his stated economic policies benefit the economy. You don't get it. He doesn't have to. The Democrats are the ones that had to do that. They're the ones that needed to explain to people "listen I know we're the party in power right now, and I know things are bad for you right now, but our plan is the better one, please elect us to 4 more years." The default mindset of an uninformed American voter is that if things are bad right now, the guys in power are the ones responsible. It's hilariously simplistic and stupid, but that's how people think about the economy.
Canadian voters think the same way. It is not just Americans.
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On November 07 2024 00:58 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 00:35 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On November 07 2024 00:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2024 00:29 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On November 07 2024 00:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2024 00:02 Uldridge wrote:
It's bad if he votes in spite of you, yeah. Look at where it's getting you.
Build bridges. Try to understand them. I think that's important. Democrats should start surveying people as early as today to find out what the biggest reasons were for Harris's loss. And keep doing it for four years, so that they have some robust information on how best to appeal to voters and effectively communicate that appeal. This is not right. The dems literally did this already. Harris and Walz talked about ways to fix the grievances these people supposedly had. Still got washed. So trying to understand them doesn't make any fucking difference. Harris and Walz lost because this country is fucking stupid. Yes, a lot of voters are fucking stupid. But they still vote. And they'll vote next time, and the time after that. I don't want Republicans to win forever, so I think it's important for Democrats to figure out what the best strategies are for 2028. There is no strategy beyond just run a white male. That's literally it. That's the only strategy. So they better start grooming Newsome because he's next. Buttigieg is a legitimate contender imo but the fact that he's gay could mean really bad news for him overall. Newsom being Californian is also going to look bad for him. I guess we could see someone like a Shapiro try to step up to be a candidate and throw his hat into the ring. Ultimately, the nation is really really dumb. I can't grapple how the plurality of voters claimed that the economy was the #1 issue for them, while Trump and his policies are so backwards that every economist basically said, yeah this is gonna cost you so much more every year because of his tariffs, and then voters still end up voting for him. We have an uneducated voter problem in this country, and it's clearly not getting any better. Its real simple.
Are you doing better today then you did last year? If yes vote for incumbent. If not vote for opposition.
How they plan to make your life better is not relevant, they don't listen to that bit.
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What is the average knowledge gap between economic experts and your average working man?
I fear the gap is so large that whatever they may say just doesn't matter. Trump is "getting stuff done".
Forget macro economic cycles that take 20 years to play out or whatever the fuck, they want stuff done NOW. And he did that and Biden didn't. That's how you lose I guess.
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On November 07 2024 00:58 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 00:35 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On November 07 2024 00:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2024 00:29 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On November 07 2024 00:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2024 00:02 Uldridge wrote:
It's bad if he votes in spite of you, yeah. Look at where it's getting you.
Build bridges. Try to understand them. I think that's important. Democrats should start surveying people as early as today to find out what the biggest reasons were for Harris's loss. And keep doing it for four years, so that they have some robust information on how best to appeal to voters and effectively communicate that appeal. This is not right. The dems literally did this already. Harris and Walz talked about ways to fix the grievances these people supposedly had. Still got washed. So trying to understand them doesn't make any fucking difference. Harris and Walz lost because this country is fucking stupid. Yes, a lot of voters are fucking stupid. But they still vote. And they'll vote next time, and the time after that. I don't want Republicans to win forever, so I think it's important for Democrats to figure out what the best strategies are for 2028. There is no strategy beyond just run a white male. That's literally it. That's the only strategy. So they better start grooming Newsome because he's next. Buttigieg is a legitimate contender imo but the fact that he's gay could mean really bad news for him overall. Newsom being Californian is also going to look bad for him. I guess we could see someone like a Shapiro try to step up to be a candidate and throw his hat into the ring. Ultimately, the nation is really really dumb. I can't grapple how the plurality of voters claimed that the economy was the #1 issue for them, while Trump and his policies are so backwards that every economist basically said, yeah this is gonna cost you so much more every year because of his tariffs, and then voters still end up voting for him. We have an uneducated voter problem in this country, and it's clearly not getting any better.
Yes to all of that second part. I don't even follow politics or the economy news that much in depth and I can recognize where this is headed from where it was 4 years ago. It's not going to look good for people and they'll look around like "what happened? why is everything so much more expensive?" while denying they caused their own suffering.
The first part, I think Newsom just has the charisma factor working for him that would get him to take the lead on this. A Shapiro type could work as well, but we'll have to see how this all pans out coming into 2027.
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Northern Ireland25363 Posts
On November 07 2024 00:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 00:00 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On November 06 2024 23:58 Uldridge wrote:
I'm not Republican. You say:
"The number one *stated* issue for Republicans was the economy. Their real number one issue was something else"
You don't get to decide what people actually voted for. This type of speech polarizes. I'm telling you to stop that kind of engagement because it's not helping anyone other than making sure you lose forever. Calling a dumbfuck a dumbfuck is bad. Got it. I mean, the republican electorate are mainly people who would benefit immensely from a true universal healthcare, a free access to education, an immensely more progressive tax code and much more regulatioms to big corporations. It’s been a theme for decades that their existence in american politics is one gigantic case of one giant crowd of turkeys voting for Christmas time and time again.
I think healthcare is the more pertinent example actually.
Economics on a macro-economic level is complicated. The average person. Doubly so if we’re talking future predictions.
I’m not being condescending, I like to think of myself as reasonably bright, hopefully some here share that perception but it’s an area I’m very weak on as well, I have to lean heavily on the expertise of others.
Healthcare you’ve got a glut of systems you can compare, all considerably cheaper per capita.
Not without flaws, but on an economic basis it’s kinda a no-brainer. Then if we consider added externalities in terms of the entrepreneurship potentially enabled by shifting that burden, by cutting the detrimental things such as medical debt. Enabling workers to move around a bit more freely without worrying about losing a sweet insurance deal.
Many Americans I believe are generally ignorant of some of this. Some aren’t, some will be interested if you reveal this and take it broadly on face value.
If they accept you on face value, or you have to dig some sources out, they may still wish to keep the US system.
I don’t personally agree, but there are arguments I’d consider legitimate. However, if you get to this stage of a discussion and your conversational partner claims they’re motivated by the economics, they’re either not very good at joining dots, or they are lying to you.
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On November 07 2024 01:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 00:58 FlaShFTW wrote:On November 07 2024 00:35 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On November 07 2024 00:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2024 00:29 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On November 07 2024 00:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2024 00:02 Uldridge wrote:
It's bad if he votes in spite of you, yeah. Look at where it's getting you.
Build bridges. Try to understand them. I think that's important. Democrats should start surveying people as early as today to find out what the biggest reasons were for Harris's loss. And keep doing it for four years, so that they have some robust information on how best to appeal to voters and effectively communicate that appeal. This is not right. The dems literally did this already. Harris and Walz talked about ways to fix the grievances these people supposedly had. Still got washed. So trying to understand them doesn't make any fucking difference. Harris and Walz lost because this country is fucking stupid. Yes, a lot of voters are fucking stupid. But they still vote. And they'll vote next time, and the time after that. I don't want Republicans to win forever, so I think it's important for Democrats to figure out what the best strategies are for 2028. There is no strategy beyond just run a white male. That's literally it. That's the only strategy. So they better start grooming Newsome because he's next. Buttigieg is a legitimate contender imo but the fact that he's gay could mean really bad news for him overall. Newsom being Californian is also going to look bad for him. I guess we could see someone like a Shapiro try to step up to be a candidate and throw his hat into the ring. Ultimately, the nation is really really dumb. I can't grapple how the plurality of voters claimed that the economy was the #1 issue for them, while Trump and his policies are so backwards that every economist basically said, yeah this is gonna cost you so much more every year because of his tariffs, and then voters still end up voting for him. We have an uneducated voter problem in this country, and it's clearly not getting any better. Yes to all of that second part. I don't even follow politics or the economy news that much in depth and I can recognize where this is headed from where it was 4 years ago. It's not going to look good for people and they'll look around like "what happened? why is everything so much more expensive?" while denying they caused their own suffering. The first part, I think Newsom just has the charisma factor working for him that would get him to take the lead on this. A Shapiro type could work as well, but we'll have to see how this all pans out coming into 2027.
Easy explanation: Biden fucked up so badly that Trump was unable to fix it.
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The Dow is way up. 1300 points. I guess someone thinks the Trump win and his policies will be good for the USA.
The TSX is down. Trump's team is going to crush the morons running Canada.
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On November 07 2024 01:03 Uldridge wrote:
What is the average knowledge gap between economic experts and your average working man?
I fear the gap is so large that whatever they may say just doesn't matter. Trump is "getting stuff done".
Forget macro economic cycles that take 20 years to play out or whatever the fuck, they want stuff done NOW. And he did that and Biden didn't. That's how you lose I guess. The knowledge gap seems to be entirety of the experts knowledge.
As in the average working man has absolutely 0 clue how anything economic works.
They just voted for a guy who wants to go into a trade war with China thinking it will bring down prices in the US.
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On November 07 2024 00:56 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 00:44 EnDeR_ wrote:
I wonder if Trump's base enthusiasm will be dented when the Trump tax cuts expire in the middle of his new term. I'm sure they will find a way to push that back
But wouldn't that massively increase the deficit? Isn't that supposed to be bad for the economy?
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EPT
