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United States24805 Posts
We also need to remember the context of that decision:
1789: The Constitution grants the states the power to set voting requirements. Generally, states limited this right to property-owning or tax-paying white males (about 6% of the population).
Electoral theory is quite different today than back then, not that I'm defending them by any means.
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Wait, are you two implying the US founders were not perfect visionaries in every possible way?
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I prefer a multi party democracy as well but that does not necessarily fix the problem that the prime minister / president is disliked by a majority of the country. The Dutch prime ministers party had around 20% of the vote and that's about the percentage of people that still support him and his cabinet.
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On April 24 2023 04:32 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2023 08:44 BlackJack wrote:On April 22 2023 23:24 Artisreal wrote:On April 21 2023 21:06 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 19:44 Artisreal wrote:On April 21 2023 17:44 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 15:18 Mikau313 wrote:On April 21 2023 09:56 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 08:29 KwarK wrote:On April 21 2023 07:51 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
Then it’s not a non-issue. Everyone can have input on how public funds are being spent. I don’t think that’s controversial.
It’s not reasonable to expect to agree with every dollar of taxpayer money spent. Right, it’s reasonable to expect disagreement on how tax dollars are spent And if the outrage was about "is paying people to read to children in libraries the right thing to do" that would be a valid point. But that's not what all this has been about. I can’t imagine why anyone would have a general opposition to using public funds for children’s story hour. It’s clear that the only oppose it because they think it’s inappropriate for children. There’s also endless other things that are deemed inappropriate for children that I’m sure they would also oppose if efforts to include it in children’s story hour existed People think religion is fucked. Still churches can exist in this country. Get used to not getting your way. The feelings of parents being afraid of drag men doing something bad to their children by virtue of existing are just snowflake things. They have no basis in reality but stem from the conditions they create for themselves. For the understanding of manhood that is so toxic and one dimensional. It's a self inflicted misery. Society has no need nor right to suppress that but shall also be unaffected by it, inasmuch as it should not cater to those extremists. People should also be allowed to object if any tax dollars are going to fund religious themed story hours for children, don’t you agree?Also I suspect the bigger objection to drag queen story hour has less to do with fearing the drag queen will throw down the book and start fondling all the children and more to do with being against exposing small children to different ideas about gender. At least that would be my concern as someone that believes there’s a social contagion aspect to the explosion in the youth that identify as nonbinary, trans or gender fluid. Of course I agree. Though the objection being what exactly in this case? It cant be exposing children to gender as there's fuck all outrage about blue pants and pink dresses - unless the boy wears the dress. Gender stereotypes are no problem but being out of the norm is? Fuck no thats no basis for objection. There is no evidence that anything harmful is taking place. Should public policy follow data or feelings? I suspect there’s a lot of things that we don’t consider appropriate for children that we don’t have data that quantifies harm. Is your position by default what you have offered here which is “show me evidence of emotional scarring to children, otherwise if you don’t like it you can leave the country.” If you want to spend the tax dollars on the drag queens shouldn’t you be the one to show the data of some benefit of having drag queens read to children? Like what? And no, it is not. What it entails though, is that with a severe restriction of a freedom, there has to be a robust basis on which grounds it can be restricted. This is not given with drag story time. There is zero basis for that. There are no arguments brought forth here as to why it is shouldn't be appropriate to have children listen to a stereotypical-womenlike dressed person.
Let’s not forget that this conversation started with me saying people should be allowed to do whatever they want but if tax dollars are being spent then others are entitled to criticize it. There’s no “severe restrictions” on freedom there.
When I go on YouTube and search drag Queen story hour one of the top results is a drag Queen in platform heels and fishnet stockings innocently reading to kids. To Elroi’s point, I think conservatives would think it’s inappropriate attire for a children’s story hour regardless if it’s a man or a woman wearing that. On the contrary, I think the only reason people on the left are tripping over themselves to argue that this is totally appropriate is only because it’s an opportunity to show how tolerant and open-minded they are. If it were a woman teacher wearing that I don’t think anyone would support her if she were reprimanded for her attire. I also doubt there is any hard data to conclude that platform heels and fishnet stockings are quantifiably harmful to children yet it’s still not typically welcomed in our society.
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TIL that punk is inappropriate for children and not typically welcomed in society.
edit: Not saying that drag and punk are the same, just pointing out that the outfit you're describing a) isn't necessarily sexual and b) isn't necessarily inappropriate for children.
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Norway28910 Posts
Tbh I'm guessing many conservative minded people would be opposed if they saw a Sid Vicious type of person in charge of the local library's book reading session, and many of them would indeed be inclined to think 'I'm gonna find some other place instead'.
That something is inappropriate for children and that some people think something is inappropriate for children are distinctly different things. Tbh, the former might actually be influenced by the latter, in some way, but inherently, it's more a question of how people want their children to turn out. Myself I don't really care about the gender identity of my son so if he wants to borrow this tshirt + Show Spoiler +https://tl.net/staff/LiquidDrone/genderbender.jpg
For a bunch of conservative-y, right-leaning people, there's this visceral reaction to 'men that don't look like men', and even when there's a 'I can accept that these people are like that' (which isn't always present, but sometimes), they're still very likely to have a 'but damn if I want my boy to be like that'.
I do think there should be different expectations for what a teacher can wear and what a performance artist can wear, tbh. I'd generally be discouraged from coming to school like this + Show Spoiler + but for a person reading the story of the little mermaid, it's entirely on point.
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On April 24 2023 14:55 RvB wrote:
I prefer a multi party democracy as well but that does not necessarily fix the problem that the prime minister / president is disliked by a majority of the country. The Dutch prime ministers party had around 20% of the vote and that's about the percentage of people that still support him and his cabinet.
It's a bit more complex than that. The coalition did have a majority of support. Since then things have changed, but it's fairly normal that support for a government drops during their work. Especially if they are working in a coalition of 4 rather different parties, and unable to actually enact any of the core points of any of those parties. Add to that the whole nitrogen debacle, and it's rather normal their support is gone.
Macron is also unpopular at the moment. I don't think a multi-party democracy needs the government to be popular during their tenure. In fact, governments often have to make hard choices that will be unpopular. We elect people that we hope will make those hard choices in a way that aligns with our preference, but that doesn't mean that we'll be happy with the results.
There are also mechanisms in place to trigger early elections if things really go off the rails. In both the Netherlands and in France, the government has survived multiple motions of mistrust.
I am personally not a fan of either government. But the institutions are working.
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On April 24 2023 18:05 Liquid`Drone wrote:Tbh I'm guessing many conservative minded people would be opposed if they saw a Sid Vicious type of person in charge of the local library's book reading session, and many of them would indeed be inclined to think 'I'm gonna find some other place instead'. That something is inappropriate for children and that some people think something is inappropriate for children are distinctly different things. Tbh, the former might actually be influenced by the latter, in some way, but inherently, it's more a question of how people want their children to turn out. Myself I don't really care about the gender identity of my son so if he wants to borrow this tshirt + Show Spoiler +https://tl.net/staff/LiquidDrone/genderbender.jpg then I'd be totally happy with that. However I'm a semi-pacifist and would have a hard time with him say, wanting to become a professional boxer or joining some branch of the army not explicitly involved in self-defense, so I'd have a bit of a negative reaction to groups influencing my child towards either of those directions, especially if it's tax-funded. Obviously he gets to live his own life the way he wants to live it, but I think it's plenty normal to have certain idealized futures that you envision and certain futures you don't want. For a bunch of conservative-y, right-leaning people, there's this visceral reaction to 'men that don't look like men', and even when there's a 'I can accept that these people are like that' (which isn't always present, but sometimes), they're still very likely to have a 'but damn if I want my boy to be like that'. I do think there should be different expectations for what a teacher can wear and what a performance artist can wear, tbh. I'd generally be discouraged from coming to school like this + Show Spoiler + but for a person reading the story of the little mermaid, it's entirely on point.
Yes I think it’s a visceral reaction against things outside of the norm and also a fear that if their kids are exposed to radical ideas about gender then they are more likely to become trans or non-binary themselves. I think the latter thoughts are justified because I do think there is a social contagion element at play and I think it’s particularly harmful. Just from personal experience I can say it’s absolutely crazy now that everyday I meet a new transgendered kid that wants to kill themselves and 5 years ago this did not exist. All the major medical groups have been sounding the alarm on teenage suicidality but I think it is mostly not well known. There are hundreds of children that spend the night in Emergency rooms because the pediatric units at psych hospitals are full. I’ve seen children spend weeks inside an emergency room without seeing the sun. It’s really a tragedy.
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On April 24 2023 20:36 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2023 18:05 Liquid`Drone wrote:Tbh I'm guessing many conservative minded people would be opposed if they saw a Sid Vicious type of person in charge of the local library's book reading session, and many of them would indeed be inclined to think 'I'm gonna find some other place instead'. That something is inappropriate for children and that some people think something is inappropriate for children are distinctly different things. Tbh, the former might actually be influenced by the latter, in some way, but inherently, it's more a question of how people want their children to turn out. Myself I don't really care about the gender identity of my son so if he wants to borrow this tshirt + Show Spoiler +https://tl.net/staff/LiquidDrone/genderbender.jpg then I'd be totally happy with that. However I'm a semi-pacifist and would have a hard time with him say, wanting to become a professional boxer or joining some branch of the army not explicitly involved in self-defense, so I'd have a bit of a negative reaction to groups influencing my child towards either of those directions, especially if it's tax-funded. Obviously he gets to live his own life the way he wants to live it, but I think it's plenty normal to have certain idealized futures that you envision and certain futures you don't want. For a bunch of conservative-y, right-leaning people, there's this visceral reaction to 'men that don't look like men', and even when there's a 'I can accept that these people are like that' (which isn't always present, but sometimes), they're still very likely to have a 'but damn if I want my boy to be like that'. I do think there should be different expectations for what a teacher can wear and what a performance artist can wear, tbh. I'd generally be discouraged from coming to school like this + Show Spoiler + but for a person reading the story of the little mermaid, it's entirely on point. Yes I think it’s a visceral reaction against things outside of the norm and also a fear that if their kids are exposed to radical ideas about gender then they are more likely to become trans or non-binary themselves. I think the latter thoughts are justified because I do think there is a social contagion element at play and I think it’s particularly harmful. Just from personal experience I can say it’s absolutely crazy now that everyday I meet a new transgendered kid that wants to kill themselves and 5 years ago this did not exist. All the major medical groups have been sounding the alarm on teenage suicidality but I think it is mostly not well known. There are hundreds of children that spend the night in Emergency rooms because the pediatric units at psych hospitals are full. I’ve seen children spend weeks inside an emergency room without seeing the sun. It’s really a tragedy.
Why do you think these kids want to kill themselves?
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On April 24 2023 15:44 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2023 04:32 Artisreal wrote:On April 23 2023 08:44 BlackJack wrote:On April 22 2023 23:24 Artisreal wrote:On April 21 2023 21:06 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 19:44 Artisreal wrote:On April 21 2023 17:44 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 15:18 Mikau313 wrote:On April 21 2023 09:56 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 08:29 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
It’s not reasonable to expect to agree with every dollar of taxpayer money spent. Right, it’s reasonable to expect disagreement on how tax dollars are spent And if the outrage was about "is paying people to read to children in libraries the right thing to do" that would be a valid point. But that's not what all this has been about. I can’t imagine why anyone would have a general opposition to using public funds for children’s story hour. It’s clear that the only oppose it because they think it’s inappropriate for children. There’s also endless other things that are deemed inappropriate for children that I’m sure they would also oppose if efforts to include it in children’s story hour existed People think religion is fucked. Still churches can exist in this country. Get used to not getting your way. The feelings of parents being afraid of drag men doing something bad to their children by virtue of existing are just snowflake things. They have no basis in reality but stem from the conditions they create for themselves. For the understanding of manhood that is so toxic and one dimensional. It's a self inflicted misery. Society has no need nor right to suppress that but shall also be unaffected by it, inasmuch as it should not cater to those extremists. People should also be allowed to object if any tax dollars are going to fund religious themed story hours for children, don’t you agree?Also I suspect the bigger objection to drag queen story hour has less to do with fearing the drag queen will throw down the book and start fondling all the children and more to do with being against exposing small children to different ideas about gender. At least that would be my concern as someone that believes there’s a social contagion aspect to the explosion in the youth that identify as nonbinary, trans or gender fluid. Of course I agree. Though the objection being what exactly in this case? It cant be exposing children to gender as there's fuck all outrage about blue pants and pink dresses - unless the boy wears the dress. Gender stereotypes are no problem but being out of the norm is? Fuck no thats no basis for objection. There is no evidence that anything harmful is taking place. Should public policy follow data or feelings? I suspect there’s a lot of things that we don’t consider appropriate for children that we don’t have data that quantifies harm. Is your position by default what you have offered here which is “show me evidence of emotional scarring to children, otherwise if you don’t like it you can leave the country.” If you want to spend the tax dollars on the drag queens shouldn’t you be the one to show the data of some benefit of having drag queens read to children? Like what? And no, it is not. What it entails though, is that with a severe restriction of a freedom, there has to be a robust basis on which grounds it can be restricted. This is not given with drag story time. There is zero basis for that. There are no arguments brought forth here as to why it is shouldn't be appropriate to have children listen to a stereotypical-womenlike dressed person. Let’s not forget that this conversation started with me saying people should be allowed to do whatever they want but if tax dollars are being spent then others are entitled to criticize it. There’s no “severe restrictions” on freedom there. When I go on YouTube and search drag Queen story hour one of the top results is a drag Queen in platform heels and fishnet stockings innocently reading to kids. To Elroi’s point, I think conservatives would think it’s inappropriate attire for a children’s story hour regardless if it’s a man or a woman wearing that. On the contrary, I think the only reason people on the left are tripping over themselves to argue that this is totally appropriate is only because it’s an opportunity to show how tolerant and open-minded they are. If it were a woman teacher wearing that I don’t think anyone would support her if she were reprimanded for her attire. I also doubt there is any hard data to conclude that platform heels and fishnet stockings are quantifiably harmful to children yet it’s still not typically welcomed in our society.
So the issue isn't drag at all but rather people wearing 'inappropriate' clothing in front of children? And if that's the case, why argue to ban people in drag rather than people in inappropriate clothing?
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On April 24 2023 20:36 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2023 18:05 Liquid`Drone wrote:Tbh I'm guessing many conservative minded people would be opposed if they saw a Sid Vicious type of person in charge of the local library's book reading session, and many of them would indeed be inclined to think 'I'm gonna find some other place instead'. That something is inappropriate for children and that some people think something is inappropriate for children are distinctly different things. Tbh, the former might actually be influenced by the latter, in some way, but inherently, it's more a question of how people want their children to turn out. Myself I don't really care about the gender identity of my son so if he wants to borrow this tshirt + Show Spoiler +https://tl.net/staff/LiquidDrone/genderbender.jpg then I'd be totally happy with that. However I'm a semi-pacifist and would have a hard time with him say, wanting to become a professional boxer or joining some branch of the army not explicitly involved in self-defense, so I'd have a bit of a negative reaction to groups influencing my child towards either of those directions, especially if it's tax-funded. Obviously he gets to live his own life the way he wants to live it, but I think it's plenty normal to have certain idealized futures that you envision and certain futures you don't want. For a bunch of conservative-y, right-leaning people, there's this visceral reaction to 'men that don't look like men', and even when there's a 'I can accept that these people are like that' (which isn't always present, but sometimes), they're still very likely to have a 'but damn if I want my boy to be like that'. I do think there should be different expectations for what a teacher can wear and what a performance artist can wear, tbh. I'd generally be discouraged from coming to school like this + Show Spoiler + but for a person reading the story of the little mermaid, it's entirely on point. Just from personal experience I can say it’s absolutely crazy now that everyday I meet a new transgendered kid that wants to kill themselves and 5 years ago this did not exist.
Your personal experiences may have changed, but I can guarantee it's not that they didn't exist 5 years ago. Autism isn't on the cusp of consuming humanity, for example, we're just finally diagnosing it more, so the numbers started going up. People who were left-handed, and people who are gay, aren't suddenly increasing in number now that they're allowed to exist.
These people have always existed. Its whether their existence is being acknowledged by others, and whether they feel safe to identify as they are. That's what's changing.
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On April 24 2023 20:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2023 20:36 BlackJack wrote:On April 24 2023 18:05 Liquid`Drone wrote:Tbh I'm guessing many conservative minded people would be opposed if they saw a Sid Vicious type of person in charge of the local library's book reading session, and many of them would indeed be inclined to think 'I'm gonna find some other place instead'. That something is inappropriate for children and that some people think something is inappropriate for children are distinctly different things. Tbh, the former might actually be influenced by the latter, in some way, but inherently, it's more a question of how people want their children to turn out. Myself I don't really care about the gender identity of my son so if he wants to borrow this tshirt + Show Spoiler +https://tl.net/staff/LiquidDrone/genderbender.jpg then I'd be totally happy with that. However I'm a semi-pacifist and would have a hard time with him say, wanting to become a professional boxer or joining some branch of the army not explicitly involved in self-defense, so I'd have a bit of a negative reaction to groups influencing my child towards either of those directions, especially if it's tax-funded. Obviously he gets to live his own life the way he wants to live it, but I think it's plenty normal to have certain idealized futures that you envision and certain futures you don't want. For a bunch of conservative-y, right-leaning people, there's this visceral reaction to 'men that don't look like men', and even when there's a 'I can accept that these people are like that' (which isn't always present, but sometimes), they're still very likely to have a 'but damn if I want my boy to be like that'. I do think there should be different expectations for what a teacher can wear and what a performance artist can wear, tbh. I'd generally be discouraged from coming to school like this + Show Spoiler + but for a person reading the story of the little mermaid, it's entirely on point. Yes I think it’s a visceral reaction against things outside of the norm and also a fear that if their kids are exposed to radical ideas about gender then they are more likely to become trans or non-binary themselves. I think the latter thoughts are justified because I do think there is a social contagion element at play and I think it’s particularly harmful. Just from personal experience I can say it’s absolutely crazy now that everyday I meet a new transgendered kid that wants to kill themselves and 5 years ago this did not exist. All the major medical groups have been sounding the alarm on teenage suicidality but I think it is mostly not well known. There are hundreds of children that spend the night in Emergency rooms because the pediatric units at psych hospitals are full. I’ve seen children spend weeks inside an emergency room without seeing the sun. It’s really a tragedy. Why do you think these kids want to kill themselves?
Probably multi-faceted, bullying, lack of family support, kids more likely to identify trans probably already had existing issues with depression and anxiety, etc. I doubt you could blame it on any one thing.
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On April 24 2023 21:14 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2023 20:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 24 2023 20:36 BlackJack wrote:On April 24 2023 18:05 Liquid`Drone wrote:Tbh I'm guessing many conservative minded people would be opposed if they saw a Sid Vicious type of person in charge of the local library's book reading session, and many of them would indeed be inclined to think 'I'm gonna find some other place instead'. That something is inappropriate for children and that some people think something is inappropriate for children are distinctly different things. Tbh, the former might actually be influenced by the latter, in some way, but inherently, it's more a question of how people want their children to turn out. Myself I don't really care about the gender identity of my son so if he wants to borrow this tshirt + Show Spoiler +https://tl.net/staff/LiquidDrone/genderbender.jpg then I'd be totally happy with that. However I'm a semi-pacifist and would have a hard time with him say, wanting to become a professional boxer or joining some branch of the army not explicitly involved in self-defense, so I'd have a bit of a negative reaction to groups influencing my child towards either of those directions, especially if it's tax-funded. Obviously he gets to live his own life the way he wants to live it, but I think it's plenty normal to have certain idealized futures that you envision and certain futures you don't want. For a bunch of conservative-y, right-leaning people, there's this visceral reaction to 'men that don't look like men', and even when there's a 'I can accept that these people are like that' (which isn't always present, but sometimes), they're still very likely to have a 'but damn if I want my boy to be like that'. I do think there should be different expectations for what a teacher can wear and what a performance artist can wear, tbh. I'd generally be discouraged from coming to school like this + Show Spoiler + but for a person reading the story of the little mermaid, it's entirely on point. Yes I think it’s a visceral reaction against things outside of the norm and also a fear that if their kids are exposed to radical ideas about gender then they are more likely to become trans or non-binary themselves. I think the latter thoughts are justified because I do think there is a social contagion element at play and I think it’s particularly harmful. Just from personal experience I can say it’s absolutely crazy now that everyday I meet a new transgendered kid that wants to kill themselves and 5 years ago this did not exist. All the major medical groups have been sounding the alarm on teenage suicidality but I think it is mostly not well known. There are hundreds of children that spend the night in Emergency rooms because the pediatric units at psych hospitals are full. I’ve seen children spend weeks inside an emergency room without seeing the sun. It’s really a tragedy. Why do you think these kids want to kill themselves? Probably multi-faceted, bullying, lack of family support, kids more likely to identify trans probably already had existing issues with depression and anxiety, etc. I doubt you could blame it on any one thing.
Yeah, I think that those are all reasonable explanations, especially when they're combined.
I think that the liberal perspective on this tends to be that proactive exposure, acceptance, and normalization are probably good ways to help deal with issues like depression and suicidal tendencies that may arise (whether it's explicitly supporting trans people who are willing to come out of the closet, or just seeing "other people who are different from the norm" doing regular things, like those who dress in drag reading books and talking to children). It's probably possible to overstep in some way, but I think that - broadly speaking - this is probably an approach that does more good than harm.
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On April 24 2023 20:36 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2023 18:05 Liquid`Drone wrote:Tbh I'm guessing many conservative minded people would be opposed if they saw a Sid Vicious type of person in charge of the local library's book reading session, and many of them would indeed be inclined to think 'I'm gonna find some other place instead'. That something is inappropriate for children and that some people think something is inappropriate for children are distinctly different things. Tbh, the former might actually be influenced by the latter, in some way, but inherently, it's more a question of how people want their children to turn out. Myself I don't really care about the gender identity of my son so if he wants to borrow this tshirt + Show Spoiler +https://tl.net/staff/LiquidDrone/genderbender.jpg then I'd be totally happy with that. However I'm a semi-pacifist and would have a hard time with him say, wanting to become a professional boxer or joining some branch of the army not explicitly involved in self-defense, so I'd have a bit of a negative reaction to groups influencing my child towards either of those directions, especially if it's tax-funded. Obviously he gets to live his own life the way he wants to live it, but I think it's plenty normal to have certain idealized futures that you envision and certain futures you don't want. For a bunch of conservative-y, right-leaning people, there's this visceral reaction to 'men that don't look like men', and even when there's a 'I can accept that these people are like that' (which isn't always present, but sometimes), they're still very likely to have a 'but damn if I want my boy to be like that'. I do think there should be different expectations for what a teacher can wear and what a performance artist can wear, tbh. I'd generally be discouraged from coming to school like this + Show Spoiler + but for a person reading the story of the little mermaid, it's entirely on point. Yes I think it’s a visceral reaction against things outside of the norm and also a fear that if their kids are exposed to radical ideas about gender then they are more likely to become trans or non-binary themselves. I think the latter thoughts are justified because I do think there is a social contagion element at play and I think it’s particularly harmful. Just from personal experience I can say it’s absolutely crazy now that everyday I meet a new transgendered kid that wants to kill themselves and 5 years ago this did not exist.
Correlation doesnt equal causation.
To me, this sounds like a troubled kid looking for answers about themselves in lgbtqia+, but ends up not finding the answers they were looking for, or being ruined by the hatred from people they thought were friends and loved ones that their experimentation brings.
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On April 24 2023 21:07 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2023 15:44 BlackJack wrote:On April 24 2023 04:32 Artisreal wrote:On April 23 2023 08:44 BlackJack wrote:On April 22 2023 23:24 Artisreal wrote:On April 21 2023 21:06 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 19:44 Artisreal wrote:On April 21 2023 17:44 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 15:18 Mikau313 wrote:On April 21 2023 09:56 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
Right, it’s reasonable to expect disagreement on how tax dollars are spent
And if the outrage was about "is paying people to read to children in libraries the right thing to do" that would be a valid point. But that's not what all this has been about. I can’t imagine why anyone would have a general opposition to using public funds for children’s story hour. It’s clear that the only oppose it because they think it’s inappropriate for children. There’s also endless other things that are deemed inappropriate for children that I’m sure they would also oppose if efforts to include it in children’s story hour existed People think religion is fucked. Still churches can exist in this country. Get used to not getting your way. The feelings of parents being afraid of drag men doing something bad to their children by virtue of existing are just snowflake things. They have no basis in reality but stem from the conditions they create for themselves. For the understanding of manhood that is so toxic and one dimensional. It's a self inflicted misery. Society has no need nor right to suppress that but shall also be unaffected by it, inasmuch as it should not cater to those extremists. People should also be allowed to object if any tax dollars are going to fund religious themed story hours for children, don’t you agree?Also I suspect the bigger objection to drag queen story hour has less to do with fearing the drag queen will throw down the book and start fondling all the children and more to do with being against exposing small children to different ideas about gender. At least that would be my concern as someone that believes there’s a social contagion aspect to the explosion in the youth that identify as nonbinary, trans or gender fluid. Of course I agree. Though the objection being what exactly in this case? It cant be exposing children to gender as there's fuck all outrage about blue pants and pink dresses - unless the boy wears the dress. Gender stereotypes are no problem but being out of the norm is? Fuck no thats no basis for objection. There is no evidence that anything harmful is taking place. Should public policy follow data or feelings? I suspect there’s a lot of things that we don’t consider appropriate for children that we don’t have data that quantifies harm. Is your position by default what you have offered here which is “show me evidence of emotional scarring to children, otherwise if you don’t like it you can leave the country.” If you want to spend the tax dollars on the drag queens shouldn’t you be the one to show the data of some benefit of having drag queens read to children? Like what? And no, it is not. What it entails though, is that with a severe restriction of a freedom, there has to be a robust basis on which grounds it can be restricted. This is not given with drag story time. There is zero basis for that. There are no arguments brought forth here as to why it is shouldn't be appropriate to have children listen to a stereotypical-womenlike dressed person. Let’s not forget that this conversation started with me saying people should be allowed to do whatever they want but if tax dollars are being spent then others are entitled to criticize it. There’s no “severe restrictions” on freedom there. When I go on YouTube and search drag Queen story hour one of the top results is a drag Queen in platform heels and fishnet stockings innocently reading to kids. To Elroi’s point, I think conservatives would think it’s inappropriate attire for a children’s story hour regardless if it’s a man or a woman wearing that. On the contrary, I think the only reason people on the left are tripping over themselves to argue that this is totally appropriate is only because it’s an opportunity to show how tolerant and open-minded they are. If it were a woman teacher wearing that I don’t think anyone would support her if she were reprimanded for her attire. I also doubt there is any hard data to conclude that platform heels and fishnet stockings are quantifiably harmful to children yet it’s still not typically welcomed in our society. So the issue isn't drag at all but rather people wearing 'inappropriate' clothing in front of children? And if that's the case, why argue to ban people in drag rather than people in inappropriate clothing?
Nah it’s mostly just cause they are people in drag. The point I was making there was to counter Artisreal that we don’t have hard data on everything that we consider inappropriate for children. There’s no stripper heels studies quantifying harm but we still prefer educators to not wear stripper heels as just an example. Also for Simberto who says conservatives are inconsistent on this issue, I think liberals can be just as inconsistent. If I went outside my house where I lived and ranted about old Christian white men I would get High fives. But if I said something about drag queens I would be called a bigot. Somehow wearing drag is more protecting than race, sex, religion, age. Or at least certain ones.
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I wonder if it was a stipulation of the settlement agreement. Whatever the case, a cause for celebration.
There was a recent John Oliver segment on And Now, This where it was ‘The last remaining sliver of morality in Tucker Carlson's head tries to give him some advice’ and it was just clips of him shouting ‘SHUT UP, RACIST’ and it’s all i can think about whenever i see his face.
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On April 24 2023 22:47 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2023 21:07 Salazarz wrote:On April 24 2023 15:44 BlackJack wrote:On April 24 2023 04:32 Artisreal wrote:On April 23 2023 08:44 BlackJack wrote:On April 22 2023 23:24 Artisreal wrote:On April 21 2023 21:06 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 19:44 Artisreal wrote:On April 21 2023 17:44 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 15:18 Mikau313 wrote:
[quote]
And if the outrage was about "is paying people to read to children in libraries the right thing to do" that would be a valid point. But that's not what all this has been about. I can’t imagine why anyone would have a general opposition to using public funds for children’s story hour. It’s clear that the only oppose it because they think it’s inappropriate for children. There’s also endless other things that are deemed inappropriate for children that I’m sure they would also oppose if efforts to include it in children’s story hour existed People think religion is fucked. Still churches can exist in this country. Get used to not getting your way. The feelings of parents being afraid of drag men doing something bad to their children by virtue of existing are just snowflake things. They have no basis in reality but stem from the conditions they create for themselves. For the understanding of manhood that is so toxic and one dimensional. It's a self inflicted misery. Society has no need nor right to suppress that but shall also be unaffected by it, inasmuch as it should not cater to those extremists. People should also be allowed to object if any tax dollars are going to fund religious themed story hours for children, don’t you agree?Also I suspect the bigger objection to drag queen story hour has less to do with fearing the drag queen will throw down the book and start fondling all the children and more to do with being against exposing small children to different ideas about gender. At least that would be my concern as someone that believes there’s a social contagion aspect to the explosion in the youth that identify as nonbinary, trans or gender fluid. Of course I agree. Though the objection being what exactly in this case? It cant be exposing children to gender as there's fuck all outrage about blue pants and pink dresses - unless the boy wears the dress. Gender stereotypes are no problem but being out of the norm is? Fuck no thats no basis for objection. There is no evidence that anything harmful is taking place. Should public policy follow data or feelings? I suspect there’s a lot of things that we don’t consider appropriate for children that we don’t have data that quantifies harm. Is your position by default what you have offered here which is “show me evidence of emotional scarring to children, otherwise if you don’t like it you can leave the country.” If you want to spend the tax dollars on the drag queens shouldn’t you be the one to show the data of some benefit of having drag queens read to children? Like what? And no, it is not. What it entails though, is that with a severe restriction of a freedom, there has to be a robust basis on which grounds it can be restricted. This is not given with drag story time. There is zero basis for that. There are no arguments brought forth here as to why it is shouldn't be appropriate to have children listen to a stereotypical-womenlike dressed person. Let’s not forget that this conversation started with me saying people should be allowed to do whatever they want but if tax dollars are being spent then others are entitled to criticize it. There’s no “severe restrictions” on freedom there. When I go on YouTube and search drag Queen story hour one of the top results is a drag Queen in platform heels and fishnet stockings innocently reading to kids. To Elroi’s point, I think conservatives would think it’s inappropriate attire for a children’s story hour regardless if it’s a man or a woman wearing that. On the contrary, I think the only reason people on the left are tripping over themselves to argue that this is totally appropriate is only because it’s an opportunity to show how tolerant and open-minded they are. If it were a woman teacher wearing that I don’t think anyone would support her if she were reprimanded for her attire. I also doubt there is any hard data to conclude that platform heels and fishnet stockings are quantifiably harmful to children yet it’s still not typically welcomed in our society. So the issue isn't drag at all but rather people wearing 'inappropriate' clothing in front of children? And if that's the case, why argue to ban people in drag rather than people in inappropriate clothing? ... I think liberals can be just as inconsistent. If I went outside my house where I lived and ranted about old Christian white men I would get High fives. But if I said something about drag queens I would be called a bigot. Somehow wearing drag is more protecting than race, sex, religion, age. Or at least certain ones.
Maybe it's because most of people in drag generally don't routinely abuse and discriminate folks for not adhering to their idea of what 'normal' is the way old Christian white men do?
I honestly don't think I've ever met an LGBT person who claimed Christianity or being old and white needs to be banned, so this just isn't a good example at all.
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![[image loading]](https://s26162.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Drag-Queen-Story-Hour-Youtube.png)
EPT
