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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 3920

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

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If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
April 22 2023 14:16 GMT
#78381
--- Nuked ---
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9235 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-04-22 14:25:24
April 22 2023 14:24 GMT
#78382
On April 21 2023 21:06 BlackJack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2023 19:44 Artisreal wrote:
On April 21 2023 17:44 BlackJack wrote:
On April 21 2023 15:18 Mikau313 wrote:
On April 21 2023 09:56 BlackJack wrote:
On April 21 2023 08:29 KwarK wrote:
On April 21 2023 07:51 BlackJack wrote:
On April 21 2023 07:47 Artisreal wrote:
On April 20 2023 07:59 BlackJack wrote:
On April 20 2023 01:37 Artisreal wrote:
[quote]
parents are free to take their kids elsewhere. it's a free country, isn't it?
if they dont like it, they can move out right?
it's not happening every day at the same place, I suppose.


Yeah, isn’t that basically what I said in my first paragraph?

yes, but also no.

Drag story is a non-issue unless either tax dollars are going to fund it or it’s being foisted onto children without parents permission.

its absolutely fine if a person offering a reading to children gets remunerated.
as far as i am aware there's no evidence of mental scarring through seeing a man dressed up as a woman and neither the other way around.
hell yeah are you going to pay them and if its in a library chances are its tax money.


Then it’s not a non-issue. Everyone can have input on how public funds are being spent. I don’t think that’s controversial.

It’s not reasonable to expect to agree with every dollar of taxpayer money spent.


Right, it’s reasonable to expect disagreement on how tax dollars are spent


And if the outrage was about "is paying people to read to children in libraries the right thing to do" that would be a valid point. But that's not what all this has been about.


I can’t imagine why anyone would have a general opposition to using public funds for children’s story hour. It’s clear that the only oppose it because they think it’s inappropriate for children. There’s also endless other things that are deemed inappropriate for children that I’m sure they would also oppose if efforts to include it in children’s story hour existed

People think religion is fucked.
Still churches can exist in this country.

Get used to not getting your way.

The feelings of parents being afraid of drag men doing something bad to their children by virtue of existing are just snowflake things.
They have no basis in reality but stem from the conditions they create for themselves. For the understanding of manhood that is so toxic and one dimensional.
It's a self inflicted misery. Society has no need nor right to suppress that but shall also be unaffected by it, inasmuch as it should not cater to those extremists.


People should also be allowed to object if any tax dollars are going to fund religious themed story hours for children, don’t you agree?

Also I suspect the bigger objection to drag queen story hour has less to do with fearing the drag queen will throw down the book and start fondling all the children and more to do with being against exposing small children to different ideas about gender. At least that would be my concern as someone that believes there’s a social contagion aspect to the explosion in the youth that identify as nonbinary, trans or gender fluid.

Of course I agree.
Though the objection being what exactly in this case? It cant be exposing children to gender as there's fuck all outrage about blue pants and pink dresses - unless the boy wears the dress. Gender stereotypes are no problem but being out of the norm is? Fuck no thats no basis for objection.
There is no evidence that anything harmful is taking place.
Should public policy follow data or feelings?
passive quaranstream fan
BlackJack
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States10574 Posts
April 22 2023 23:44 GMT
#78383
On April 22 2023 23:24 Artisreal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2023 21:06 BlackJack wrote:
On April 21 2023 19:44 Artisreal wrote:
On April 21 2023 17:44 BlackJack wrote:
On April 21 2023 15:18 Mikau313 wrote:
On April 21 2023 09:56 BlackJack wrote:
On April 21 2023 08:29 KwarK wrote:
On April 21 2023 07:51 BlackJack wrote:
On April 21 2023 07:47 Artisreal wrote:
On April 20 2023 07:59 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]

Yeah, isn’t that basically what I said in my first paragraph?

yes, but also no.

Drag story is a non-issue unless either tax dollars are going to fund it or it’s being foisted onto children without parents permission.

its absolutely fine if a person offering a reading to children gets remunerated.
as far as i am aware there's no evidence of mental scarring through seeing a man dressed up as a woman and neither the other way around.
hell yeah are you going to pay them and if its in a library chances are its tax money.


Then it’s not a non-issue. Everyone can have input on how public funds are being spent. I don’t think that’s controversial.

It’s not reasonable to expect to agree with every dollar of taxpayer money spent.


Right, it’s reasonable to expect disagreement on how tax dollars are spent


And if the outrage was about "is paying people to read to children in libraries the right thing to do" that would be a valid point. But that's not what all this has been about.


I can’t imagine why anyone would have a general opposition to using public funds for children’s story hour. It’s clear that the only oppose it because they think it’s inappropriate for children. There’s also endless other things that are deemed inappropriate for children that I’m sure they would also oppose if efforts to include it in children’s story hour existed

People think religion is fucked.
Still churches can exist in this country.

Get used to not getting your way.

The feelings of parents being afraid of drag men doing something bad to their children by virtue of existing are just snowflake things.
They have no basis in reality but stem from the conditions they create for themselves. For the understanding of manhood that is so toxic and one dimensional.
It's a self inflicted misery. Society has no need nor right to suppress that but shall also be unaffected by it, inasmuch as it should not cater to those extremists.


People should also be allowed to object if any tax dollars are going to fund religious themed story hours for children, don’t you agree?

Also I suspect the bigger objection to drag queen story hour has less to do with fearing the drag queen will throw down the book and start fondling all the children and more to do with being against exposing small children to different ideas about gender. At least that would be my concern as someone that believes there’s a social contagion aspect to the explosion in the youth that identify as nonbinary, trans or gender fluid.

Of course I agree.
Though the objection being what exactly in this case? It cant be exposing children to gender as there's fuck all outrage about blue pants and pink dresses - unless the boy wears the dress. Gender stereotypes are no problem but being out of the norm is? Fuck no thats no basis for objection.
There is no evidence that anything harmful is taking place.
Should public policy follow data or feelings?


I suspect there’s a lot of things that we don’t consider appropriate for children that we don’t have data that quantifies harm. Is your position by default what you have offered here which is “show me evidence of emotional scarring to children, otherwise if you don’t like it you can leave the country.” If you want to spend the tax dollars on the drag queens shouldn’t you be the one to show the data of some benefit of having drag queens read to children?
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
April 23 2023 00:05 GMT
#78384
--- Nuked ---
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14047 Posts
April 23 2023 02:35 GMT
#78385
Applying that standard to how to express constitutional right sets a very dangerous president that doesn't faire well for things like gun rights in the country. Especially considering that it would justify, as previously mentioned, much harsher crackdowns on Sunday schools and child pageants where we have significant evidence of harm far and above what drag queen story hour does.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-04-23 02:55:32
April 23 2023 02:50 GMT
#78386
--- Nuked ---
gobbledydook
Profile Joined October 2012
Australia2605 Posts
April 23 2023 07:53 GMT
#78387
I don't think cost is the issue here. This is just manufactured outrage about something happening that conservatives don't like. It could have cost nothing, or a billion dollars a year, and there wouldn't be much difference.
I am a dirty Protoss bullshit abuser
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11629 Posts
April 23 2023 08:00 GMT
#78388
On April 23 2023 11:50 JimmiC wrote:
Also, the point is being missed. It is that the people making all the noise do not "care about the children" if they did they would go after the already proven ones. It is a justification that lets thrm pretend they are not hateful. Its about hiding their intent by changing the conversation to something they think they feel they can argue.


Absolutely correct. We have seen this pattern from US conservatives over and over again. They just lie, because if they were to say the thing they actually want to say, that wouldn't go over well. They instead need a smokescreen to hide it behind.

What they actually want to say here is "I hate gay people and think being gay should be illegal". But people don't agree with that. So they hide between this obvious smoke of implausible deniability where they can claim that that is not what they are actually on about, but instead it is all about "protecting the children" or whatever.
Ryzel
Profile Joined December 2012
United States535 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-04-23 12:57:34
April 23 2023 12:56 GMT
#78389
The secret to why conservatives throw a hissy fit about drag storytime and not Sunday school/beauty pageants lies in their name; conservative. I imagine overall they care less about the gay part (although I’m sure a bunch do), and more about the “changing what it means to be normal” part. In my life I’ve observed tolerance boiled down to three forms…

1. Complete intolerance: Even in your own private thoughts you despise the existence of a particular thing.

2. Personal tolerance: In your head you think “If someone is X/wants to be X in the privacy of their own home, that’s fine. I got no problems with that. Just keep it to yourself.”

3. Societal tolerance: Accept the normalization of X into everyday society and allow it to become a part of “how things are”.

It took the civil rights movement from the ‘60’s onwards to get most conservatives from 1 to 2 on a lot of things, and to this day when you ask them to define “acceptance”/“not being racist”/etc. their definitions will align with 2. They think that’s enough, all that needs to happen. Of course it’s much easier to go from 1 to 2 than 2 to 3, and that’s what all the culture wars are about.

The good news is that we’ve figured out that over time we can make 3 happen by saying “screw you” to conservatives and make things the new normal by living it normally. The kids of these conservatives will be exposed to it more often in society, along with others who have accepted it as normal, and are way more likely than their predecessors to get to 3.

Haters gonna’ hate.
Hakuna Matata B*tches
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
April 23 2023 14:37 GMT
#78390
--- Nuked ---
Slydie
Profile Joined August 2013
1927 Posts
April 23 2023 17:53 GMT
#78391
On April 23 2023 21:56 Ryzel wrote:
The secret to why conservatives throw a hissy fit about drag storytime and not Sunday school/beauty pageants lies in their name; conservative. I imagine overall they care less about the gay part (although I’m sure a bunch do), and more about the “changing what it means to be normal” part. In my life I’ve observed tolerance boiled down to three forms…

1. Complete intolerance: Even in your own private thoughts you despise the existence of a particular thing.

2. Personal tolerance: In your head you think “If someone is X/wants to be X in the privacy of their own home, that’s fine. I got no problems with that. Just keep it to yourself.”

3. Societal tolerance: Accept the normalization of X into everyday society and allow it to become a part of “how things are”.

It took the civil rights movement from the ‘60’s onwards to get most conservatives from 1 to 2 on a lot of things, and to this day when you ask them to define “acceptance”/“not being racist”/etc. their definitions will align with 2. They think that’s enough, all that needs to happen. Of course it’s much easier to go from 1 to 2 than 2 to 3, and that’s what all the culture wars are about.

The good news is that we’ve figured out that over time we can make 3 happen by saying “screw you” to conservatives and make things the new normal by living it normally. The kids of these conservatives will be exposed to it more often in society, along with others who have accepted it as normal, and are way more likely than their predecessors to get to 3.

Haters gonna’ hate.


This makes a lot of sense. Conservative politicians in the US have been brilliant of making their voters scared that they are under threat. I don't think it is too hard to find channels when they say exactly what they mean.

I find it curious that "cancel culture" is mainly a left-wing fenomenon, so a true liberal society (as I see it) is under siege from both sides.

Things are indeed changing on how we look at transgenders. If you dig a bit, there are even some questions with no obvious solutions, like passports, competetive sports and who can go to women's prisons.
Buff the siegetank
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9235 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-04-23 19:36:46
April 23 2023 19:32 GMT
#78392
On April 23 2023 08:44 BlackJack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 22 2023 23:24 Artisreal wrote:
On April 21 2023 21:06 BlackJack wrote:
On April 21 2023 19:44 Artisreal wrote:
On April 21 2023 17:44 BlackJack wrote:
On April 21 2023 15:18 Mikau313 wrote:
On April 21 2023 09:56 BlackJack wrote:
On April 21 2023 08:29 KwarK wrote:
On April 21 2023 07:51 BlackJack wrote:
On April 21 2023 07:47 Artisreal wrote:
[quote]
yes, but also no.
[quote]
its absolutely fine if a person offering a reading to children gets remunerated.
as far as i am aware there's no evidence of mental scarring through seeing a man dressed up as a woman and neither the other way around.
hell yeah are you going to pay them and if its in a library chances are its tax money.


Then it’s not a non-issue. Everyone can have input on how public funds are being spent. I don’t think that’s controversial.

It’s not reasonable to expect to agree with every dollar of taxpayer money spent.


Right, it’s reasonable to expect disagreement on how tax dollars are spent


And if the outrage was about "is paying people to read to children in libraries the right thing to do" that would be a valid point. But that's not what all this has been about.


I can’t imagine why anyone would have a general opposition to using public funds for children’s story hour. It’s clear that the only oppose it because they think it’s inappropriate for children. There’s also endless other things that are deemed inappropriate for children that I’m sure they would also oppose if efforts to include it in children’s story hour existed

People think religion is fucked.
Still churches can exist in this country.

Get used to not getting your way.

The feelings of parents being afraid of drag men doing something bad to their children by virtue of existing are just snowflake things.
They have no basis in reality but stem from the conditions they create for themselves. For the understanding of manhood that is so toxic and one dimensional.
It's a self inflicted misery. Society has no need nor right to suppress that but shall also be unaffected by it, inasmuch as it should not cater to those extremists.


People should also be allowed to object if any tax dollars are going to fund religious themed story hours for children, don’t you agree?

Also I suspect the bigger objection to drag queen story hour has less to do with fearing the drag queen will throw down the book and start fondling all the children and more to do with being against exposing small children to different ideas about gender. At least that would be my concern as someone that believes there’s a social contagion aspect to the explosion in the youth that identify as nonbinary, trans or gender fluid.

Of course I agree.
Though the objection being what exactly in this case? It cant be exposing children to gender as there's fuck all outrage about blue pants and pink dresses - unless the boy wears the dress. Gender stereotypes are no problem but being out of the norm is? Fuck no thats no basis for objection.
There is no evidence that anything harmful is taking place.
Should public policy follow data or feelings?


I suspect there’s a lot of things that we don’t consider appropriate for children that we don’t have data that quantifies harm. Is your position by default what you have offered here which is “show me evidence of emotional scarring to children, otherwise if you don’t like it you can leave the country.” If you want to spend the tax dollars on the drag queens shouldn’t you be the one to show the data of some benefit of having drag queens read to children?

Like what? And no, it is not. What it entails though, is that with a severe restriction of a freedom, there has to be a robust basis on which grounds it can be restricted.
This is not given with drag story time. There is zero basis for that. There are no arguments brought forth here as to why it is shouldn't be appropriate to have children listen to a stereotypical-womenlike dressed person.
passive quaranstream fan
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23467 Posts
April 23 2023 21:04 GMT
#78393
One of the few things a majority of US voters agree on is that we don't want to elect either of the nominees we are going to be allowed to choose from.

A new NBC News poll found that 60 percent of Americans think Trump shouldn’t try to retake the Oval Office — including roughly a third of Republicans. Thirty percent of those who think he shouldn’t campaign in 2024 cite the criminal charges he faces in New York as a “major” reason.

At the same time, 70 percent of Americans think Biden shouldn’t seek a second term — including 51 percent of Democrats. Forty-eight percent of those who said he shouldn’t run again cited his age as a “major” reason.


thehill.com

It's strange to see these numbers in relation to the probability that in a purported democracy we'll all somehow end up with no choice but to vote for one of them. That seems indicative to me of foundational systemic problems that undermine the very values the system is ostensibly meant to protect.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
April 23 2023 21:27 GMT
#78394
--- Nuked ---
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11629 Posts
April 23 2023 21:33 GMT
#78395
But a lot worse than the countries with more than two choices.
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24740 Posts
April 23 2023 21:36 GMT
#78396
It's self-imposed. Political parties aren't even in the constitution. Only having two major parties isn't in the constitution.

You can vote for someone who isn't running as an R or a D. You can also vote in 50% (sometimes more) of the major primaries. This is more a people problem than a system problem, even though it's also a system problem.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11629 Posts
April 23 2023 21:47 GMT
#78397
A winner takes all FPTP system basically automatically leads to two parties. Especially if everyone acts in their own rational self-interest. It isn't self-imposed, it is based on the system.
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24740 Posts
April 23 2023 21:51 GMT
#78398
Your good point is ruined by the fact that a huge % of american voters are not acting in their rational self-interest lol
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
April 23 2023 22:21 GMT
#78399
I think on the basis of abortion being outlawed, we likewise need to abolish our two-party system. Conservatives should be on board with that, as the Constitution doesn't spell it out directly. A strictly essentialist interpretation of the Constitution demands it.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43219 Posts
April 23 2023 22:39 GMT
#78400
The constitution imposes a two party system by imposing simple plurality elections. The founders just weren’t very good at electoral theory. They simultaneously condemned factions and mandated them.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
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